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‘Teaching Kids to Hate Gemara’

A columnist quotes Rabbi Yosef Heller, Crown Heights Rosh Kollel, as saying that not everyone needs to study Gemara. Full Story

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Devir Beytecha
June 20, 2012 2:09 pm

Let define here some of the semantic terms -Gemarah -Teacher-Rebbi -Learning -Hate-Love -Academic -Methodology -Semantic -and the W’s of course (Who, Whom, When, Where, Why or hoW) The child in his ideal scholastic frame has to learn a curriculum as it infers in Pirkey Avot: ben 5 lemikra,… ben 18 l’chupah…However, due to unreasonable reasons ( as condemned by the Maharal p.15) the ‘pilpul and divrey Hevel’ took prevalence over the learning of Torah (knowing data and information and to work with them), with a unversed the chronology and priorities of material to be study (often the children don’t know… Read more »

Call Rabbi Rosenblum
November 6, 2011 10:38 pm

Do you know that Rabbi Yossi Rosenblum from Pittsberg Yeshivah Schools has an exciting computer program fpr GEMORO? Get in touch with him

L'fi aniyas da'ati:
November 6, 2011 1:23 pm

Eitz Chaim He. It is recommended for anyone interested in addressing the Mitzvah of Chinuch to study, review and learn Hilchos Talmud Torah. A pre-requisite to proper in-depth study is a grasp of the language the material is in. Teaching languages is better to do when those learning are younger. Teaching material is better to do when those learning have a broader understanding of the language. First and foremost is reading Torah (shebichsav) over and over b’ta’amim (without translation), and then to learn pirush etc. It is mentioned there (HTT) that since Torah (sheba’al peh) was recorded (and limitations arose)… Read more »

old problem
November 6, 2011 7:18 am

should be learnt but not for 7 hrs a day! it killed me in yeshivah. why only 45 min halacha? and we wonder why bochrim don’t know any halacha?
and the real problem are that many of the teachers in our yeshovos don’t know how to teach the skills to the students how learn gemara on their own, so its chinese from the first day untill the last day of yeshivah with an artscroll in between.

Once upon a time
November 6, 2011 1:46 am

Simple Jews learned Gemoroh via Ein Yaakov. Introducing the language of the Gemoroh via Ein Yaakov might be a way to ease the talmid who is having difficulty learning, into being able to make a “leining” for himself. Shnaim Ochzin might be too abstract for some of our students, but Ein Yaakov isn’t. Also “rov sodos hatorah genuzin boh”.

But Even Korean Children Learn It
November 5, 2011 10:28 pm

I’ve read that even non Jewish Korean children learn Talmud in school because it sharpens the mind.

What R Heller really said
November 5, 2011 10:17 pm

The article and all the comments miss the other half of Rabbi Heller’s message — that there is no cirriculum or teacher training available for this idea and we should sell every sefer torah in crown heights (leaving one per shul). You think the success of JLI came from nothing? Someone was willing to pour in MILLIONS of dollars for the project to succeed. And succeed it did, revitalizing Mivtza Torah like nothing ever before. Until something similar happens here, there cannot be meaningful change.

Mad and Sad in Montreal
November 5, 2011 10:03 pm

old topic, much discussed everywhere, with no one really willing to change, same old story with either the same people or different people with the same attitudes, and lack of understanding running the yeshiva, money or last name makes the decisions, they talk how they want to change, but then can’t find the way on how to do it, or the talk about parent input but really don’t mean about educational decisions, they may mean well, and even try to fix things financially, but don’t see the big picture, or don’t want to, don’t ask too many questions, or else… Read more »

departement store vs. boutique
November 5, 2011 9:57 pm

if once schools were stroctured like departement stores ,with a lttle for everyone,nowadays we want/need boutiques.More attention to the individual student,will allow each one to be able to learn even gemoroh, even toisefos etc.,we only need to know even before beginning of the school yearwho are those children that will need special attention, then invest in afew rabbeim who have shown abilities & recieved some training to reach such students ,take them out of class in very small groups or if necessary 1 on 1, they will recieve the help & the tools they need to learn better inside the… Read more »

comment #22
November 5, 2011 8:36 pm

just like in pirkei avos…ben chamesh esreh legmara…

fifteen years of age is when one is to start learning gemarah…

too early
November 5, 2011 8:28 pm

Children are taught mishna before they now the Tanach. They are taught gemara before they have an appreciation of mishna. Why should ten year olds be taught gemara?

to # 11
November 5, 2011 7:47 pm

thats the problem in all yeshivos today
hudreds of kids have to suffer with boring uninteresting teachers (lets not forget 1 teacher for 35 kids)
because of money??? that might explain why majority of kids dont want learn
ther rebbe said more than once you do what is right and good for the kids and hashem would give u the money

Yes
November 5, 2011 7:27 pm

but not only among israeli youth but among our own in america as well the problem exists on a large scale and even when a program opens up that would cater to such needs any good but “challenged” boys are too scared of ruining their record to join it and it inevitbaly it becomes a yeshiva for off the track boys because those are the only ones joining and someones gotta pay the bills

Finally..
November 5, 2011 7:13 pm

Finally someone gets it!!!!

I wrote this article 25 years ago
November 5, 2011 4:41 pm

This article appeared in the Yiddishe Heim. In those days the Rebbe looked these articles over and made notes in the margins. My Child Is Not a “Learner” Rabbi Yeheskel Lebovic Yeshiva Education on the Rise Over the past four decades Torah-true Judaism has made tremendous strides in America and elsewhere. Jewish schools are flourishing, some of them bursting at the seams. Jewish life is vibrant and pulsating. The Torah community keeps growing in a exponential progression, aided by the fact that observant Jews are the ones having the most children. The yeshiva system of education is becoming the norm… Read more »

Schools
November 5, 2011 3:09 pm

Talmud covers many areas such as – Reading skills -Hebrew skills/ Rashi -Comprehension skills -Critical analysis- -Historical background To all those critisising our schools. Some children come in to a yeshiva seriously behind because of a great variety of reasons and if they are behind in any, Talmud will mean failure. for them Only individual tutoring and time can correct this. This costs lots of money. And for some this would not help because the have a learning deficiency. Most parents do not have this money. So they blame someone else for a problem that is inherent in our community,… Read more »

Use your yiddishe cop
November 5, 2011 2:42 pm

Less is more. One hour a day of Gemorrah with a very interesting teacher that poses questions relevent to their lives. Next year, offer a special 21/2 hours for the only most brilliant students. Almost everyone will want to get into that class. Those students are increased to three hours the next year, etc.

Begging the pardon of #2
November 5, 2011 1:37 pm

But you’re an idiot.

If it were another topic under discussion I probably would have used the more politically correct and less inflammatory term “misguided soul.” But since your comment has a complete lack of apathy to the very real distress hundreds of children are going through, speaking to the point is more important than cuddling your ego and entertaining your well-meaning but incorrect views .

THIS HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!
November 4, 2011 7:34 pm

We are throwing out the baby with the bath water at such high numbers every year and observation shows lots of these teens struggled in school. We need to have a more diverse school setting in our chabad yeshivas and make sure every child is able to suceed and feel good about the strengths “GIFTS” he has been given by G-D!!! Shame on our own system who goes out and tries to make the world a brighter place elevating one soul at a time yet doing a terrible injustice to tomorrows future. I PRAY this will be the beginning to… Read more »

to #8
November 4, 2011 6:06 pm

your 100% right.

don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
November 4, 2011 5:50 pm

don’t stop teaching gemara chas v’sholom…just tailor it to the capactity of the students to sit and absorb it..

once they get into a little and can learn as quick as they want, they just might find the ‘stories’ intresting after all.

To #2 & 7
November 4, 2011 5:17 pm

You have $ to pay for your ideas?

Call a spade a spade
November 4, 2011 4:51 pm

IF Rav Heller is right, that not everyone is fit for Gemarah, then Rav Helller’s (if one is honest all the way) is: that not everyone is fit to learning mishenh a whole day and focus on texts a whole (*any* text) and the logical honest conclusion is, that just as before the war not everyone learned in yeshivah and instead went to learn a trade so too today , for those who are not fit to textual studies should be given the tools to learn a trade! Those that are turned from yidishkeyt by learning difficult talmud are turned… Read more »

Rabbi Heller
November 4, 2011 4:51 pm

As a teacher I agree with Rabbi Heller 100%!!!

Artscroll i s a Double edge sword
November 4, 2011 4:40 pm

Of course it helps us with understanding word & methalogy; But on the other hand it prevents an individual of using his mind to get the essence & nesacery means to learn alone;

To #2
November 4, 2011 4:33 pm

The problem doesn’t lie with “the teacher – the mashpia” but with the school.

It is the responsibility of the school to create a curriculum and for the teacher to follow it.

Instead they just throw a teacher and kids together in a room and say “fight it out!”

gemora is amazing!!!!
November 4, 2011 4:27 pm

it’s a living tradition

100%
November 4, 2011 3:57 pm

I wanted to write this article. Thank you for beating me to it (and perhaps doing a better job!)

I don’t believe that we need to stop teaching Gemara. I do believe however that we need to fundamentally change our objectives and methods.

Rabbi Heller YOU ROCK!!!!!!!
November 4, 2011 3:52 pm

I have been saying this for the past 30 years. I saw firsthand how some of my sons and now grandsons struggle with the 6 hours per day of gemara..standard in most of our yeshivas. My grandmother used to tell me that in europe her sons worked to help make a living, as did most of the boys, and that one of her sons ‘had a gemara kup’ and the teachers begged him to come to yeshiva. “that was considered an honor, most boys were not invited to learn”… Just like Rabbi Heller says, not everyone has a knack for… Read more »

I see the point but...
November 4, 2011 3:52 pm

gemmoro has a bit of everything even stories! anyone can appreciate it they just need to find a sugya they enjoy.

Begging the pardon of Rabbi Heller shlita
November 4, 2011 3:40 pm

The problem of Gemora study does not lie in the student – the mekabel,, but rather the teacher – the mashpia. The Rebbe’s shita was always to make every part of Torah relevant to today – even the most seemilngly arcane subjects. The purpose of learning Gemora is not to learn how to do anything. That is the purpose of Shulchan Aruch. The purpose of Gemora is to learn how to think in a logical holistic (whole-istic) approach. The expression “goyishe kop” refers to the very linear way in which non-Jews approach a problem based on the teachings of Euclid… Read more »

a 17 year old
November 4, 2011 3:32 pm

i agree with u 100 %

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