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Saturday, 17 Tammuz, 5779
  |  July 20, 2019

    Reevaluating the “Courtesy Date”

    From the COLlive inbox: The rule that a bochur and a girl must go out a least twice, while not interested, is simply ridiculous. Full Story

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    Thank you for this write-up
    Guest
    Thank you for this write-up

    Couldn’t agree more!

    Well said
    Guest
    Well said

    i 100% agree.

    Levi Rapoport
    Guest
    Levi Rapoport

    Well said. Saying that you must go out a 2nd time with anyone who you’ve gone out with once, is the equivalent of saying you must go out anyone who you’ve been introduced to. Absurd.

    Thank G-d he gave me a second chance
    Guest
    Thank G-d he gave me a second chance

    After our first date,my husband said he had no idea why he had been set up with me, and said that he had absolutely nothing in common with this girl. I don’t know what possessed him but he agreed to go out again and again…

    There are no rules
    Guest
    There are no rules

    People have to stop getting into their heads that there is a ‘system’ and there are ‘rules’. Don’t make it your system and don’t make it your rules and you won’t have to bide by them. These collive ‘op-eds’ are all the same: about what the shidduch ‘system’ is doing… Exactly who is enforcing the system and the rules? Only the people who you allow to enforce it. You don’t want it? So don’t allow ‘them’ (the evasive ‘them’. Do what is right for you. You don’t want to go on a second date, because you really feel it isn’t… Read more »

    Looks grow on people
    Guest
    Looks grow on people

    Generally, when a guy says no on a first date, it’s because of looks. Stop being so superficial. You can also be attracted to someone’s personality!

    Who's to say
    Guest
    Who's to say

    I married my husband because of this rule. #failedargument

    what are you saying???
    Guest
    what are you saying???

    that is such garbage. i know countless pple who would have never married their spouses had they not gone on a second date. you do NOT know someone after a few hours when one or both are nervous wrecks and putting on a show! life is not a romance story where we fall head over heels at first sight! get with the program

    first hand experience
    Guest
    first hand experience

    I know someone happily married bcuz of a second date

    I am happily married b"h because of this rule!
    Guest
    I am happily married b"h because of this rule!

    I’m sorry but i disagree, this is a GREAT RULE!! most people do not “act their comfortable selves” on the first date. In general nerves are running high. I personally am quite an outgoing, sense of humor kind of girl. well that is not at all how i conducted myself on our first date. B”h for the 2 date rule, i got into my comfort zone, married over a decade with a beautiful family. when it comes to shidduchim usually some research and effort has already been invested, so give it a second date!!!!! most couples will say thank g-d… Read more »

    When in doubt go out.
    Guest
    When in doubt go out.

    I had this rule that worked for me:
    When in doubt go out.
    I heard the rebbe said go on a second date when in doubt.

    4 hours?!
    Guest
    4 hours?!

    Four hours on a first date? That sounds crazy to me. Should be 1-2 hours tops.

    I think a second date is important. A recent first date I had was a total tank and the second was much better. We were both glad we gave it a second try (although we ended up not going much further than that).

    To #4
    Guest
    To #4

    It’s very different when someone says that “we have nothing in common” vs when someone says “I am not interested in this person at all”. “We have nothing in common” is (oddly) a very common statement you will hear people say. People tend to be reserved on their first date, and hold back from sharing information that might actually hold common ground. On the second date and beyond, people loosen up a little and this information is likely to come out. I believe the writer of the op-ed is referring to the former case, in which the guy or girl… Read more »

    this became a rule
    Guest
    this became a rule

    This rule in our system produced too many shidduchim BH bec on first dates our eideleh fine kinderlech may often act totally not themselves. So yes there is definitely a lot of chance of big turnarounds after first date.

    meeting
    Guest
    meeting

    A first shiduch date is not a date it’s a “meeting”. A date is when you know someone and decide to go out. No matter what you hear about someone you don’t really know them so the first time is just a way too meet. If after meeting you decide to go out then you’re dating. If you know it’s not for you then why waste your time? If you’re not sure the just go out, it’s just s date.

    To #5
    Guest
    To #5

    Who ever said that there are rules? Strangely, the only one spewing that garbage here is YOU.

    There is no systematic rule that you have to go on a second date. It’s a common “meshugas” that people have picked up, believing that they “owe” it to the other person to take them out on another date. The author here is pointing out this exact point.

    there is not shayuch
    Guest
    there is not shayuch

    and then there is NOT shayuch. chances are that if u dated him she/he falls into not shayuch #1 and therefore u should date him again.
    #myownpersonaltheory.

    You cant handle the truth
    Guest
    You cant handle the truth

    This op-ed is so wrong. Many of the single girls I know have them same mentality and “know from the first date that he is not her night in shining armor”. They all still remain to this day, single, still searching for the one who will sweep them off their feet. Meanwhile many a suitable suitor hast come and gone and suited themselves finely. If all the readers would heed your ludicrous argument there would be standing room only at the Ahavas Israel Shule. Alas the day will come and you will marry and it will be to the one… Read more »

    THE SOLUTION!!!!!!!
    Guest
    THE SOLUTION!!!!!!!

    Instead of writing articles maybe just go out on that 2nd date and get married.

    to #6
    Guest
    to #6

    “stop being so superficial.You can also be attracted to someone’s personality”
    I hope you don’t give dating advice for a living.
    True, one can be attracted to someone’s personality, but Physical attraction still needs to happen as well.
    If the guy knows that he doesn’t find her attractive at all, “personality” isn’t not going to change that.

    We're also married because of
    Guest
    We're also married because of

    “this rule”… so go figure

    it's not a one size fits all
    Guest
    it's not a one size fits all

    if both really have no interest I think it is silly to insist they go out again. if there is even a tiny doubt then certainly give it another try. To the comment “looks grow on people” that is certainly true – I believe if one is concerned with looks to the extent of allowing that to override a person’s middos, character, sense of humor etc. then stay single.. Do some gal /or guy a big favor .. And pleeeez throw your list in the toilet cause that’s where it belongs. Go out on a date, talk to the person,… Read more »

    Rabbi Manis Friedman
    Guest
    Rabbi Manis Friedman

    Rabbi Manis Friedman has been posting short video clips about dating and shiduchim etc.
    He seems to agree with this point but says it much blunter.
    (To a group of girls) ” If you are bored of him after an hour tell him :”take me home”.
    You are there to check him out. Don’t think he is “the one”? Move on!
    11213 is the address

    I said, "no way" about going out a 2nd time
    Guest
    I said, "no way" about going out a 2nd time

    with the guy who is now my husband. But my parents told me to give it one more try. I thought it was a ridiculous waste of time, but I listened. So glad I did!

    I've been saying this for years
    Guest
    I've been saying this for years

    I did the forced 2nd date a couple times before I realized its a wast of time, money and emotions for all those involved.

    If you have any doubt at all you should go for a second date but if you are sure he/she is not for you – stay home and do a crossword puzzle.

    the rebbe holds differently
    Guest
    the rebbe holds differently

    from what i hear, the rebbe strongly encouraged couples to go out a second time as long as one of them was still interested. apparently, the rebbe doesn’t think this idea is “simply ridiculous”

    Listened to my mashpia
    Guest
    Listened to my mashpia

    I was not forced but pushed to go out a second date. I was told that the rebbe advised it etc. bh I did because I am married almost ten years now to the most amazing person I know. I think there is an issue where bochurim are over thinking the whole shidduch situation and are having less and less basic emuna in the aibishter. It is getting out of hand with Facebook pictures and resumes and bochurim being quick to judge the girl thinking they are manis Friedman and dr. Phil. I advice bochurim to stop overthinking the shidduchim… Read more »

    Thank you!!
    Guest
    Thank you!!

    I’m so sick of leading the girl on with a second date!

    second date
    Guest
    second date

    A girl we know went on a first date. she liked his personality but thought ‘he’s not really frum enough. casual clothes, talks about lots of things that are beyond what I am looking for’. But she had no drastic reason to say no so she gave him another chance. He liked her and was glad she was looking for a frummer bochur. He showed up in a hat and jacket and talked Torah with her. He had been faking being less committed to increase his chances of being compatible with shidduchim! Five years later and he still wears only… Read more »

    To comment #5
    Guest
    To comment #5

    Let me let you into a little secret. No matter where you come from, no matter which group you assosciate yourselfs with, it generally comes the “The Unwritten Rule Book.” Theres the “Bochur unwritten rule book” the “Seminary girl unwritten rule book”, even the “Coming to 770 at 3pm to daven shacharis unwritten rule book”. But who wrote this book and where can one buy it? Just like the evolution of minhagim that become intertwined into our day to day lives, they came from the social/cultural norm of where you were living. In order to provide order and communication or… Read more »

    what the rebbe says
    Guest
    what the rebbe says

    the rebbe said to go out at least twice, first impressions arent always correct.
    so even if you dont understand and its a pain this is what the rebbe said and are you a real chossid?

    it works
    Guest
    it works

    nice article, but if you’re going out and unsure – give it another try.
    it works.
    things get either better or worse…
    and that makes the choice easier

    the rebes opinion
    Guest
    the rebes opinion

    after the first date i wanted to stop . i wrote to the rebbe end the answer was ” !?ממתי מכירים אדם מפעם אחת ”
    (this was a direct answer of the Rebe in the year 5731)
    Rabe Hadakov (who transmited to me the Rebe’s answer) explained to me that that’s the Rebe’s opinion for everybody!

    duh!
    Guest
    duh!

    Who said there’s a rule? It may be common practice, it may be a generally good idea (as you yourself concede), but nobody said you MUST. If someone told you that you must you could have simply verbally stated your position to them and saved yourself the hassle of writing this piece… Your over-dramatization (“extremely awkward, extremely delicate and complex, extremely unfair”…) , of a simple idea is juvenile. Don’t go on a second date if you don’t want… And consider this: if that person is so “off” for you, perhaps you shouldn’t have gone out with her in the… Read more »

    agree with #5
    Guest
    agree with #5

    The ” rules” cause only problems. Why should you have to go to a hotel in Manhattan? Why 3-4 hours on a first date when 2 hours is plenty? Why get dressed in a way you never dress normally? etc. etc. All this stupid expectatoins and rules are causing the so called “shidduch crisis” which would not have existed if everyone just did and behaved the way they naturally do.

    I agree
    Guest
    I agree

    Some people just don’t deserve a second chance. Like someone who came drunk to a date and asked very personal questions.. Like someone who knows you aren’t feeling well, and that you can’t be out for more than 3 hours this time, but tells you that you need to show ppl who is in charge and stay out 6 hours. Like ppl who the whole first date is trying to convince you to come to his organization where he works to meet the people. Like ppl who sit there telling you the reason they want to get married is because… Read more »

    two cases where a second date or second chance should be given
    Guest
    two cases where a second date or second chance should be given

    I think that if one party traveled a long way for the first date, it is only fair that the person he/she came to see gives it a second go. Also where one party places a lot of pressure (possibly over several years) on the other party to go out in the first place, it’s not fair just to say no after a first date.

    Rebbes advice
    Guest
    Rebbes advice

    Rebbes advice #33
    Thank you for your personal experience
    Anyone else with a personal experience of the Rebbe’s response ?

    To #6 about personality vs physical attraction
    Guest
    To #6 about personality vs physical attraction

    “True, one can be attracted to someone’s personality, but Physical attraction still needs to happen as well.” When one bases all impressions on 1 meeting to see if you are physically attracted, then you are not educated in the ways of the mature world. Physical attraction is very important – but it also grows as you become interested in the person’s personality. Unless you are repulsed (or any part thereof) by this person, check out the personality a bit longer. They can go from a 5 to an 8 in two more dates, and to a 10 in a few… Read more »

    Thank goodness they made me go again!
    Guest
    Thank goodness they made me go again!

    I really didn’t like my husband on our first date and he felt the same! It was so bad we had to put on music in the car to drown out the uncomfortable silence.the Shadchen made us go out again saying the Rebe says to go out twice who can refuse that? We went out again and it was okay we both still felt it’s not for us but I started to see more qualities about him which helped me decide with pressure from the Shadchen to go out again. BH we are very happily married for nine years! So… Read more »

    The So-called
    Guest
    The So-called

    I met my husband in Crown Heights on my own. We are BA”H still happily “dating” after many years of marriage. Still I have deep respect for the so-called Shidduch system. I’ve seen it work for the rest of my family. In particular – I had a relative strongly pause after the first date – but choosing to give it another shot as per “regulations”. Well, by the third date she was all googly eyed. They’re B”H married for some years with some children and quite thrilled still by one another. So while the “System” is not the ONLY way… Read more »

    to#28
    Guest
    to#28

    I thought I was alone in that thinking. I’m tired too.

    2nd
    Guest
    2nd

    Date there is nothing to loose except a little time.

    It might be worth it some people open up and need a second chance

    Actually
    Guest
    Actually

    Not going on a second date can hurt her a lot more. For, she will think ‘am i that bad he won’t even give me a chance’ or ‘am I unattractive’…

    it came from the Rebbe
    Guest
    it came from the Rebbe

    case closed

    shiduch crises!
    Guest
    shiduch crises!

    And you wonder why we have a shiduch crises?? Because this generation thinks they are above the Rebbe’s rules, and above the system that worked for countless generations. People are afraid of commitment and think they will have instant chemistry and long drawn out bonding conversation on the first date. only THEN will they commit to more. This is so silly and not the way towards a G-dly relationship. You have to get to know someone. Beginning of relationships are suttle when there real. We all need to rethink how we are dating and what we are thinking when we… Read more »

    Married people be quiet...
    Guest
    Married people be quiet...

    We’re glad for you that your second dates went as well as they did, but let us decide what’s best for us. We know how we feel. Leading people on is hurtful and unnecessary.

    2nd Date with proviso
    Guest
    2nd Date with proviso

    I will recommend a second date if there are no glaring red flags on the first. However it comes with a proviso. Too be yoitzei zein is a waste of time, money, effort and energy. Both sides must be committed to giving the date their best chance. If their heads are elsewhere, going through the motions will not accomplish anything. On the other hand, if they only wish to see if the second date could be a bit better and the possibility of a relationship develping, it stands a chance.
    Rabbi Moishe Raitman – shadchancoach.,com

    proves  my point
    Guest
    proves my point

    i keep saying that a few hours is enough for anyone to know if they want to meet again. I didn’t say ‘marry’ just go out again. WE SHOULD DO SKYPE DATING….under the aegis of a good shadchan…A skype date would solve all the problems of dating in general… 1. less expensive for the bochurim who have to fly somewhere and shell out so much money for every date it amounts to quite a bit if there is multiple girls and multiple dates. 2. saves the ‘second date’ dilemma…it’s only a phone call..not such a big deal 3. gives the… Read more »

    NONSENSE
    Guest
    NONSENSE

    This is a case to case issue…

    i wanted to refuse a second chance, my mashpia (A real smart man!) said give it at lease another once.

    we are happily married (No one would imagine…) i don’t know many couples with Sholom Bayis like ours BARUCH HASHEM

    ALL IT IS: CASE BY CASE EVALUATION …

    I donno how COL printes these blanket statments…

    yehuda v'od likra
    Guest
    yehuda v'od likra

    After comment 33, nothing else has to be said.

    But k’Yehuda V’od Likra, both I and a brother had that experience, where there was complete disinterest (or more…) after a first date, but when encouraged (or importuned, cajoled, etc) to go out a second time, it turned out that the prospective date was our zivug! We are both B”H very happily married; Hodu L’ashem ki tov!

    yes and no
    Guest
    yes and no

    agreed with the article, obvously common sense is required and not to folow a rule blindly. However ypu must have reasoning behind the decision not to continue, I havr a friend that for no good reason quit after the 1st date despite my advice not to. a year+ later he ended up marring her so defenitely push for a 2nd date

    Serial Daters.
    Guest
    Serial Daters.

    How about writing an op-ed about the epidemic of serial dating? There is no reason in the world why guys and girls are going out with 20 25 different people in a span of two years. All it does is make the dating process a bigger burden than it should be, and if the first date is not as anticipated then it feels like a waste of time. I think its pretty logical that if proper research is done,(i.e not calling references from the resume but people who have dealt with the boy/girl and their families) a second date will… Read more »

    second and even third date!
    Guest
    second and even third date!

    I think obviously people should be able to decide if it’s a waste of time in their situation to go out a second time, but, singles should keep in mind that becuase my husband decided to go out with me on a second and third date even though he was not interested, he finally got to see me open up. and only on the third date did he see me for who i was.

    Sruly C
    Guest
    Sruly C

    I skipped all the comments ( maybe someone already said what I’m gonna say ). A second date is a MUST for 2 reasons. 1. A first date can be very confusing cause you’re breaking the ice and might be confused, you have to evaluate and digest all the information, and see if the person is seeing eye to eye, and not giving a second date won’t let you get all the necessary info. 2. In essence your telling the person you are worthless I won’t even meet you again ( your not worth my time ) specially after so… Read more »

    igros
    Guest
    igros

    Is their a printed igros where the rebbe states this clearly?

    summarizing
    Guest
    summarizing

    after all the above comments and real stories let the writer come to the conclusion why this “rule” exist

    it's a good guidline
    Guest
    it's a good guidline

    when you’re in shidduchim you should acknowledge that there are these “rules” for a reason but treat them more as guidelines. Then before deciding how to act, use your seichel.

    to 46
    Guest
    to 46

    ” the system that worked for countless generations”

    Actually, for “countless generations” people lived in small towns and the guys and the girls knew each other

    as a shadchan
    Guest
    as a shadchan

    I have a 2* meeting rule as a shadchan at least 7 out of the 30 shidduchim I have had the tzchus to be a partner in, would not be married today without this rule. Anyone can have a bad day, be nervous enough to mess up a first meeting. One cannot understand what it feels like until he/she meets someone they really liked and didn’t get a second chance. That being said there are always exceptions to this rule!!!! If neither want to go out again then for sure they don’t. If someone is rude, drunk or not a… Read more »

    Johnny
    Guest
    Johnny

    To all those of you who are ripping the writer, re-read the second to last paragraph:

    However, before you push someone – or are pushed – to go on a second date, give it some thought. Each situation is unique and should be treated as such. Committing to two dates before you’ve met the boy or girl, is nonsensical.

    So that’s exactly what he’s saying!

    shadchan
    Guest
    shadchan

    As a shadchan, I have to disagree with part of your article. True, if both sides are not interested, then I would never think of convincing them for a second try. However, if one side is very happy and the other is not, then I think it is a good idea for the second date. I have seen many success stories where people change their mind for the positive, after giving that second chance. One person even told me “I can never see myself with this girl…” and he is b”h happily married now – only because he gave her… Read more »

    Oh, please
    Guest
    Oh, please

    I’ve gotten the “I don’t want to take her on a second date because she might start to like me too much” line before, and it’s complete bull. After flying in from a different country and being thoroughly unimpressed with the guy on the first date, I agreed to a second date because, as many people noted above, people don’t always act like their usual selves on the first date and I was willing to give him a second chance. From that line though it became clear that he wasn’t just a narcissistic jerk on the first date, he was… Read more »

    attn #62
    Guest
    attn #62

    as a shadchhan its your job to be annoying. and its our job to protect ourselves from you.

    You might always wonder
    Guest
    You might always wonder

    I believe from experience that there are times when you know that this man is not for you no matter what anyone else thinks and going out again would be a demoralizing exercise in futility (even if he did not do anything wrong). I would never fault myself or a friend who just said no after a first date. BUT if there was something about him you liked, something essential, that had nothing to do with his off-putting behavior, conversation, mannerisms or hashkafos that make you want to end it, THEN go out again. The worst thing that could happen… Read more »

    am i the only one to realize?
    Guest
    am i the only one to realize?

    that u dont get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression?

    Shidduch coach and shadchan
    Guest
    Shidduch coach and shadchan

    The parsha of shidduchim is what part of the classroom of life. You have to pass exams to get to the next level. The final exam is the ultimate level when you find your bashert. This means that if you don’t learn the lessons required for future happiness in marriage now you may not pass to the next level. Major part of what we know is Menchlichkeit and how to be mevater (give in for the greater good). In most cases there should be a second date of course there are exceptions and that’s when you discuss it with a… Read more »

    agr
    Guest
    agr

    I so agreee!!!!!!!!!

    there are two sides to the story
    Guest
    there are two sides to the story

    on one side there are the expenses of a date each date costs one hundred dollars and a lot of emotional stress
    but on the other side it is very insulting to go out only once because that means its only something very wrong with the other side an a lot of times on the second time it does work out
    I cannot decide what is worse but i would not say a straight out opinion
    In general one should try to be sensitive and hope because of that hashem will help them in there search

    not sure...
    Guest
    not sure...

    `second dates entered into with feelings of pointlessness or ambivalence are as unpredictable as life itself- there’s a good chance that it will indeed prove to be a ” waste of time,” or a not- to- be- sneezed- at chance that something will come of it after all. If, after the second date, the party/ies choose(s) to move on the daters will at least be able to feel incontrovertibly secure in their decision. this possibility may allow the couple involved to regard a ” pointless ” second date as worth the time and effort.

     What About Me
    Guest
    What About Me

    What system should I follow? Please dont ask any questions. Daloy Golus!!!

    to #30
    Guest
    to #30

    brilliant

    X