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Tuesday, 17 Elul, 5779
  |  September 17, 2019

Don’t Mix Chassidishkeit Into It

From the COLlive inbox: A Chabad bochur writes to a friend who said the Rebbe's limitations on drinking l'chaim were misunderstood. Full Story

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Bochur
Guest
Bochur

I am a bochur and I fully agree with the writer of this article
I have a lot of friends who don’t even see the problem of not drinking more than 4 lchaims

Kol Hakovod
Guest
Kol Hakovod

Thank you for clearly articulating the Rebbe’s view

SO TRUE!
Guest
SO TRUE!

Finally someone saying it as it is! Overuse and misuse of Mashke—-and blaming it on holiness—-has been a growing problem in our system for years. And unfortunately it is condoned on the highest levels where sometimes it is the Rov and other “leaders” themselves (!) that’ll be the ones to make it out to be so cool to make kiddush on Mashke in Shul Farbrengen. And they know full well that there are several letters of the Rebbe saying that one is NOT yotze kiddush on Mashke anyway.

It’s time to stop this nonsense.

Thanks for raising this issue!

All talk, no action
Guest
All talk, no action

“Finally someone saying it as it is!”

Honestly, you really think sitting and commenting on articles is going to solve our problems. Too many in our community are content with speaking behind closed doors about the issues which plague us.
It’s time to start having these conversations in public; attended my the people who SHOULD be leading the charge ie the Rav of our town, mashpiam, etc.

People do all kinds of funny things
Guest
People do all kinds of funny things

But this is very serious because of the health implications. And the loss of sechel that comes with it

To number 3
Guest
To number 3

It would be great to see the source i.e. the letters of which you reffer to in which the Rebbe writes the one is not yoitze kiddush on mashke. Not to editor: Perhaphs such letters be published as a seperate article as so not be lost in the comments?

%100
Guest
%100

It’s like many things the rebee said clearly that somehow over time are like he never saidd them. Moshiach, Tznius, Kashrus and many other thinss that are quote on quote lubavitch standars but many of us still have a hard time living up to them. I’m not putting down anyone, just saying that things that are not ok will always be not ok. Lubavitch isn’t what the rebbe defined it is. Do I do all those things? At the moment no. But I know that I can be better and work that tomorrow should be a better day. And it’s… Read more »

Shluchim don't go on Tahalucha anyway...
Guest
Shluchim don't go on Tahalucha anyway...

I’m not sure how productive an Op-Ed on this subject is, especially such a short one, but it does remind me of when I was in Mesivta, and one Shabbos I saw a Shliach I knew, who was well under 40 at the time, quite drunk. So I asked him why he was saying more than four, and without missing a beat he replied, “Because I’m a shvantz.” Couldn’t really argue with that, and at least he was honest.

Wow
Guest
Wow

Yes, finally someone speaks the honest truth. This is such a big issue these days especially in mesivtos and zals

Letter from the Rebbe
Guest
Letter from the Rebbe

Excerpt from Igros Kodesh, vol. 15, no. 5500: בשאלתו בקידוש והבדלה, ידוע שיין קודם לכל שאר משקה, והרי במחנו יש להשיגו. וכן במ”ש בהנוגע להתועדות ובפרט בהנוגע לאברכים לא ראיתי תועלת ממשקה המשכר ח”ו נוסף על הענין דפעולה ורושם בלתי רצויים כלל וכלל… וידוע סיפור כ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר זצוקללה”ה נבג”מ זי”ע ממנהג חסידים הראשונים שהיו מעמידים הסאטקע על השולחן בתחלת ההתועדות ויוצאים בראי’ בה, ורק במקרים מיוחדים זקוקים להנ”ל וגם זה בהגבלה לפנים מהגבלה, וק”ל. Free translation: About kiddush and havdalah – where wine is available, as in your location, it’s preferable for use. As for farbrengens, especially with yungerleit,… Read more »

Readers. Pay attention.
Guest
Readers. Pay attention.

This writer made what I consider a valid and clean point: If you drink more than 4 l’chaim’s it’s not chassidishe, and you can’t call yourself a chosid. He did NOT pollute his point by ranting about the evils of drinking. Just call it what it is – one’s desire or need to drink – and what it is not – chassidic. And I think it is best, when talking about this, NOT to decide for another whther it’s right or wrong or good or bad to drink alcohol. Just don’t drag the rebbe and chassidishkeit into your behaviour that… Read more »

Source
Guest
Source

Where exactly dis the rebbe say that someone who drinks more than 4 should not consider himself a chosid of his? (Yhe rebbe said he should not go on his tahalucha – but yhat is representing the rebbe- something totally different) Also he puts together takanos of the fridiker rebbe and the rebbe. When col posts articles like this (and comments like #3) about such important topics, it makes it look like עמי ארצים are writing it, and coming from an ignorant background just to foght their own ideology! May we merit to see the rebbe before the fast has… Read more »

True point
Guest
True point

Very very well said. To the point

Misnaged!
Guest
Misnaged!

Your just a cold hearten misnaged, the mashke is in order to drown the yetzer hora. 4 or more than 4 is not the issue, the Rebbe wants us to be happy, and with mashke we are all happy! #cynical #goodarticle

ULY
Guest
ULY

I think ch needs to crack down on how often mashka is given out. There is no reason why I have to hear 4 year olds from ULY talking about mashka in school. It was very disturbing and frankly if a government aid would hear that and understand it oh boy it would be bad.

Sources please
Guest
Sources please

Dear writer of this article. Your article is very much appreciated! Please post here (in the comments) the sources of the sichos/farbrengens that the Rebbe speaks about the amount of L’Chaims… Or videos… Basically, the source, wherever it is. There are times people say, the Rebbe said ‘this and that’ but won’t give us the source. Nothing wrong with knowing the source, on the contrary, it will make a bigger impact on the readers of this article, especially for the ones who are struggling with this issue!

Thanks in advance!

wow
Guest
wow

You are so on target…I couldn’t have said it better….All bochurim take heed to these words….The REBBE said it…

For those who want sources
Guest
For those who want sources

There are literally mafteichos for everything. Just open one up. It’s so easy. Why does everyone have to do the work for you? If you’re interested in finding out the truth then go do some research. Avoida b’koiach atzmo. This is Lubavitch not Belz.

To 12
Guest
To 12

A chossid is automatically representing the Rebbe. Tahalucha or not. If you aren’t acting in a way a chossid should act, don’t think you can hide in Shul and call yourself a Chossid.

What about after 40?
Guest
What about after 40?

I see men drinking on shabbos and yt non stop and unable to attend their families.

to 14 misnaged
Guest
to 14 misnaged

you are totally off course 1 people who drink think mashkeh will drown their problems but they don’t realize problems float. 2 if the rebbe says no more then 4 before 40 he knew exactly what he was saying.

What do you mean?
Guest
What do you mean?

It’s quite ironic that within the week of Hei Teves, that the judge in his ruling said “it does not make much sense that a man of the character of the Sixth Rebbe would, in the circumstances, mean something different than what he says.” there are those that feel the Rebbe’s horaos, means something different than what he says.

To #14
Guest
To #14

“to drown the yetzer hara” what a foolish thing to say. When was the last time you opened a gemarah?

To Number 14
Guest
To Number 14

How dare you. See, people like YOU are the real issue in Lubavitch. Just because someone is speaking straight facts about the Rebbe, and how much he was against 4 Lchaims. I understand the “pros” of saying a few Lchaims. But the Rebbe was clearly against more than 4, and if you look at our bochurim in Lubavitch these days, I’m sure you can understand why. Calling someone a Cold Hearted Misnaged, just because they are pointing out a clear fact, and trying to help other Chassidim strengthen their connection with the Rebbe. That is typical brain-washed crown heights. People… Read more »

#14 ??
Guest
#14 ??

Not everyone, especially after 4 or more, will have the brains to realize you are being sarcastic.
So just to make it clear, no substance can make you happy
Drugs don’t make you happy.
Cigarettes don’t make you happy.
And mashke DOES NOT MAKE YOU HAPPY!
Yes you may feel a buzz, you may drown your troubles, you may forget that you have financial problems.
But that is not happiness.
So stop fooling yourselves.
Drinking more than 4 doesn’t make you happy.
It makes you an alcoholic!
A substance abuser.
And like all addicts, the best thing you can do is put down the bottle and GET HELP.

to 24
Guest
to 24

you can’t blame the whole CH and Lubavitch when there are a few who think this way. Talking this way is almost like saying the same thing as 14 the same mind set

#14 was being sarcastic
Guest
#14 was being sarcastic

Look at the 2 hashtags at the end of the comment.

LA Morah
Guest
LA Morah

Alchoholism and addiction are real and there real by us! Many lives,entire families have been destroyed. It’s time the roshei yeshivas,rabanim and mashpias publicly address this and not wait till situations become disasters.

Source
Guest
Source

To all those comments about sources, do you know what you’re talkin about? There are plenty of sources! There is a famous sicha about tahaluch that if you don’t keep the takana you should not go on tahalucha because you are not my shliach!!

To #15 we all given boys grape juice for a Kiddish and they all call it Mashka
Guest
To #15 we all given boys grape juice for a Kiddish and they all call it Mashka

It’s inian of Hinuh … 4 years old also speaks lots of Jail and other scary stuff but that’s all he picked up from Chabad destiny …no one serve kids real Mashke ( means vodka ) are u crazy to state such a point ?

The story is good to remind all rules that alcoholism is a problem and need an organization that helps ppl to deal with it anonymously. Like drug addiction

Very good point
Guest
Very good point

Thank you so much for writing this article.

The blame is not just on the drinker
Guest
The blame is not just on the drinker

As much as we must all take individual responsibility it is really hard to change when this is the lifestyle we were raised in. I grew up on shlichus and was exposed to alcohol my entire life. I began drinking at shul as a child a l’chaim here and there. When I went to yeshiva I was drinking constantly by age 14. Yes it is my responsibility to stop but when your teachers and friends encourage you it is impossible to say no. When I got married our shabbosim were miserable because I’d reek of alcohol and spend the afternoons… Read more »

The truth is that
Guest
The truth is that

The whole mashke = farbrenging thing is a dor shishi thing entirely. There is a letter in the igros koidesh that the Rebbe shlita wrote to R Peretz Chein stating this unequivocally.

re #14
Guest
re #14

drown your yetzer hara in learning instead. learn gemora, rambam, or mishnayos. Learn Navi like chassidim used to do. or just stay home and do the dishes. this emphasis on alcohol is horrible.

Embarrassing problem
Guest
Embarrassing problem

Face it. Drinking has become our culture. Before I became frum I was told by teachers, parents to never be pressured by other people to do drugs or drink alcohol. Interestingly, I never really was pressured to do those things but when I came to Chabad I definitely felt the pressure to drink. Chassidim are always pushing it on others. Baruch Hashem, I am strong enough to withstand the pressure if I don’t want to drink (btw, I do take l’chaims, responsibly, all the time). Basically, drinking is very easy to abuse. I complete get the reason for taking l’chaim… Read more »

To 32 kol hakavod
Guest
To 32 kol hakavod

You are a major inspiration.

Thank You
Guest
Thank You

Very often, some of us may get carried away with the peer pressure that we need to drink more than four. And more than four also applies to making kiddush four times, or pouring significantly more than a keleshik each time. The Rebbe didnt want us to act with a level of hefkerus that comes out of taking a lot of mashke, the sole intent was to ever-so-slightly break down a barrier of comfortability that we may feel before a farbrengen. The Rebbe very clearly called mashke “a disgusting thing.” I don’t know how the Rebbe could have made himself… Read more »

Angry
Guest
Angry

I b”H put boys through our system and spent much koach trying to get their mashpiim to stop serving mashke to our children, only to be laughed at and ridiculed. Why should a little 14-15 year old kid in Mesivta be given mashke? Forget 4. They shouldn’t be getting one!!! Why are we whetting their appetites? I wish more people agreed with me…

Shluchim are also to blame
Guest
Shluchim are also to blame

I am embarrassed and upset at my son in law’s Chabad House shul when I see how he pours out copious amounts of liquor to the people at the kiddushim, including any bochurim he has there. Many of the regulars are in their late teens and early twenties & they are quick to hold out their cups for more. I wonder how much his liquor bill is! I’m the shvigger I can’t say anything but it bothers it me lot. I spoke to my son about it and HE limits the drinking in his shul/Chabad House. But a son is… Read more »

To 32
Guest
To 32

I read your article in tears For 2 reasons; Firstly, because what are our Rabbis and ‘Mashpiim’, thinking when they tempt those of us who are fighting a real drink issue, and trying so hard to overcome it, and pushing it into our faces is the last thing we need? 🙁 And secondly, for being such a “man’ in every sense of the word, and battling this basically on your own, for your wife and family! Truly amazing! You are a major inspiration, and my admiration for you knows no bounds! Hatzlochoh in all your efforts.May Hashem be at your… Read more »

Kiddush on mashke
Guest
Kiddush on mashke

After shabbos parshhas shemini an
Elderly חסיד told.in chodesh sivan that year
When he was in יחידות the rebbe said to
Him.a yid even at the age of 75 should
Not make kiddush on mashke only on
Wine.and he could publicize this that
Others should know the rebbe’s opinion.

To #38
Guest
To #38

Many mesivtas are actuely stopping especially for shiur alef

#32
Guest
#32

Wow! Good for you! Proud of a fellow Jew! What a special wife you must have. You are truly an inspiration to us all. Hope my kids see your comment

Begged my sons mesivta to stop with alchohol
Guest
Begged my sons mesivta to stop with alchohol

and was told by the Menahel,”if boys don’t start drink and get exposed to at least a little mashka in mesivta,they won’t know how to be responsible about mashke when they get to zal.”I have never heard anything so ludicrous in my life.Just FYI my son tells me that he would consider a handful of his classmates classic alcoholics,and they were only 17 year olds back then.It is a travesty which I have tried to work on and change,but a s a woman,have been laughed at multiple times for trying to talk to the powers that be.Hashem Yishmor,may the Aibishter… Read more »

I dont get it
Guest
I dont get it

So whats the point of haveing a fabrengen if theres no lchaim? The rebbe said we should say lchaim,so i get peoples stupidity to say no lchaim is the best thing, after all this does not make u any more chassidish on the countrary ur going against the rebbes ‘rotzon’ and there nothing wrong with haveing 4 lchaims if u know for a fact 1 or 2 woint be enough to be bringout anything ,as long as u know ur limits. So just think before u write anything. I hope this is understood. thank u! Moshiach now!

@number8
Guest
@number8

What’s a shvantz? For the uneducated… :/

Just a Thought
Guest
Just a Thought

To my knowledge, girls have farbrengens. To my knowledge, girls dont say lechayims (on mashke). Unless I am way off on these two points, there are ways to let loose and have a geshmake, chassidishe farbrengen without mashke. The Rebbe has encouraged lechayims, not more than 4 under the age of 40. That is a closed deal as is every other Hora’ah of the Rebbe. When we begin to question the intentions of the Rebbe and try to find ways around what the Rebbe clearly instructed us, we really must ask ourselves, what is my intention? Am I looking to… Read more »

To #41
Guest
To #41

You definitely have no clue what the difference between a הוראה כללית and a הוראה פרטית is: ידוע ומפורסם לכל that the Rebbe said כמה וכמה פעמים to baalebatim that making קידוש on משקה is – in the Rebbes הייליקער loshon – ״גאר א גלייכע זאך״.

Whats the'gezairo'?
Guest
Whats the'gezairo'?

Does 4 lchaims also apply to 96% mashkeh or u can only have less?

To 48
Guest
To 48

To the best of my knowledge that was only Simchas Torah.
The rebbe did clearly say (in one of the first sichus regarding maskeh) not to make kiddush on maskeh so anything beyond that is an exception

If it will help
Guest
If it will help

If mashke will enhance the fabrengen. Gezunter heit. If not what’s the point? Some people fabreng better with mashke some not. Vedal

Dont be 'nispoel'!
Guest
Dont be 'nispoel'!

We have to farbreng ‘caus the rebbe wants u to and this is the esence of lubavitch i have no dought about it and we have to come out of oursellf to be good and better people. WE MUST HAVE NO LESS THAN 4 LCHAIMS OF 96% MASHKEH!! lchaim v’livracha!

a few sources for further reading on Mashke
Guest
a few sources for further reading on Mashke

B”H As a Shliach of the Rebbe who knows many young people who passed away in their youth as a result of drug and alcohol abuse, I hope this vital conversation will save lives. First of all – you are not alone. Whether you’re suffering from addiction or helping someone who suffers from addiction. Get Help! Here’s a group of Recovery Rabbis: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/732837/jewish/Recovery-Rabbis.htm Some readers have asked for sources, here’s a few. The booklet called “Mashkeh”: https://operationsurvival.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/yacov-booklet.pdf NY State laws against providing alcohol to minors https://apexschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/NYS-Alcohol-Offenses-Under-21-Yrs-Old.pdf US Surgeon General report on addiction – including alcohol: https://addiction.surgeongeneral.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-generals-report.pdf Here’s the website of… Read more »

Wondering
Guest
Wondering

To 33 The reason that mashke was more in dor hashishi was because thy couldn’t be with there Rebbe בגשמיות and גדולה לגימה שמקרבת and needed the achdus between chasidem to pass the hardships.
By The way we’re is the letter printed?

Educating the masses
Guest
Educating the masses

@14 bashers
#… = the sauce you want pored over the previous comment
Read… Then Comment
(For those from before the hashtag age) Mr. 14 is agreeing 100% with the writer, he even believes that 4 lechaim is not always necessary. Happiness comes from within, not external “things”
#loveyouall

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