ב"ה
Wednesday, 17 Tishri, 5780
  |  October 16, 2019

Rabbis, You’re Both Wrong

Op-Ed By Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie: "Unfortunately, the conversation on COLlive.com between Rabbis Shmuley Boteach and Yoseph Korf fails on many counts to take a responsible approach to the questions that face us as a community." Full Story

Wedding: Spigler – Eliezrie

Next Story »

Wedding: Gothelf – Davis

68
Opinions and Comments

To keep track of your comments, follow a conversation or flag a comment Login
avatar
  Subscribe  
newest oldest most voted
Notify of
a challenge for the mediator
Guest
a challenge for the mediator

the only point I see in writing this article is a little ego booster for the author and a plug for Shlichus which is in deep trouble from every, did I say EVERY possible angle. Rabbi Eliezrie, if we are such an open society I challenge Chabad Shluchim to make a truly open town meeting (every fired Shliach invited) and invite the press and we’ll see and hear the TRUTH of a decaying system, a corrupt delusional group of people with NO ONE taking the steering wheel. OH and by the way — Mazel Tov. You should only have happiness… Read more »

Children are continuing the live by the ideals the Rebbe implanted.
Guest
Children are continuing the live by the ideals the Rebbe implanted.

Have you been to crown heights lately? Or noticed how modern our kids are becoming???
For every person that is brought closer , there are others in our own communities that are become more distanced from their roots. Time for some “inhouse help”,please!

Zvi in Montreal
Guest
Zvi in Montreal

Well put.

I still think that comment #38 in the Rabbi korf article should merit its own discussion, as it deals with the issues and is a fantastic response to Shmuley.

FOCUS
Guest
FOCUS

The Rebbe clearly called for the incorporation of inyonei geulah and Moshiach in every Chabad endeavor. As far as I know that call has not changed to this day.

As one pained by the the ugly words, defection of our youth and chillul Lubavitch I humbly submit the following suggestion: Perhaps, if “influentals’ like the rabbonim/shluchim involved in this very unfocused debate would learn and internalize the Rebbe’s words and directives, without editing the the parts they find difficult, the whole Lubavitch would get back on track.

i wonder
Guest
i wonder

how mishechistim learn about Aron died .

what did it help that hashem showed them the bed of Aron

if he is still alive

Eliezrie - Sholom aleichem!
Guest
Eliezrie - Sholom aleichem!

“Rabbi Boteach’s arguments are not original” . They do not need to be original. They are matter of fact and are not being addressed. “I do at times wonder why Shmuley feels it so important to be the clarion caller ” . Maybe if the powers to be took action Shmuley wouldn’t need to keep stating the obvious. It is people like Shmuley that get people talking. He is the Oprah of Chabad. I’m amused because I just knew it would only be a matter of time before Eliezrie will offer his 2 cents. Why wasn’t anything done positive in… Read more »

wow, who knew we had such elequente writers in Lubavitch?!!?
Guest
wow, who knew we had such elequente writers in Lubavitch?!!?

keep it up!!!

Dear Rabbi - your also wrong.
Guest
Dear Rabbi - your also wrong.

Why not?

Clarifiication
Guest
Clarifiication

Just a point. Are you trying to belittle Rabbi Boteach by calling him Shmueli and you refer to rabbi Korf as Rabbi Yossi Korf. I believe both have semicha and either you address them by their titles or call them both by their first names.
With regards to the “leadership” in Chabad. It is non existence The Rebbe has set up that Mossad is individually run. Our rabbonim where ever they may be are the “leadership”.

fluff
Guest
fluff

this article is full of fluff. it didn’t really say much apart from trying to paint a rosey picture.

8 #
Guest
8 #

i agree to you

Achakeh Lo
Guest
Achakeh Lo

Thank you Rabbi Eliezrie for an intelligent response.
While I agree that the issues brought up by Rabbi Boteach are all important ones, his bringing them up in the public forum does not seem to be motivated by a concern to see solutions to the problems rather to present himself as the one who recognizes problems whereas others don’t.
Rabbi Korf’s response is unfortunately a bizayon to every Shliach. He really has no business responding publicly to anything.

wow so when is the fourth perrson gonna rite an article?? :)
Guest
wow so when is the fourth perrson gonna rite an article?? :)
Merkos
Guest
Merkos

I especially agree with Boteach’s critique of Chabad leadership. Recently, I heard that a senior Shliach was dismissed by the board of Merkos in blatant defiance of a Psak Din of their own Rabbonim! (Two members yelled and insulted the Rabbonim to their face, telling them Merkos wasn’t obligated to obey Rabbonim…) Right now, the Shlichus system is headed by two groups who are at each others’ throats. But who’s going to do anything about it? Nobody. Rabbi Eliezrie, you’re in a position of influence, why don’t YOU do something?! Talk is cheap. Meanwhile, internal Lubavitch is fighting like cats… Read more »

I will sum it up Nepatisim
Guest
I will sum it up Nepatisim

Rather than facing the challange, ‘ozoiv tazoiv eimo;

to #13 - Rabbi Yisroel Deren??? LOL
Guest
to #13 - Rabbi Yisroel Deren??? LOL

We need a Vaad to address mesivtas and zals and make hanholas accountable.
VAAD – Rabbis Nochum Kaplan, Markowitz, YY Jacobson, Wenger – Montreal, Halberstam – Chicago, Thaler and Shapiro – LA, Rosenblum – Pitts, Boteach, Avtzon and maybe a rep from every Yeshiva.
Yeshivas should be monitored.
Hanholas should have training how to deal with non-cookie cutter bochurim or know to whom to turn to in resolving issues and not just throwing out bochurim because of their own short comings.
Yeshiva tuition needs to be made affordable. Maybe it’s time Rabbi Moshe Kotlarsky became actively involved.

crownheights
Guest
crownheights

can we get maybe someone from the crownheights community to respond maybe one of the mechanchim

Shmuly friend from Yeshiva
Guest
Shmuly friend from Yeshiva

Shmuly has been in many Chabad yeshivas as a bochur. He was on shlichus. He is telling it as it is. Go Shmuly. Your old friend from yeshiva

Well spoken Rabbi Eliezri
Guest
Well spoken Rabbi Eliezri

very well said.

education system
Guest
education system

I am looking for an excellent chabad education for my children. Having MUCH trouble finding this. Please educate me in where these excellent institutions are?

solution oriented
Guest
solution oriented

It’s time for all the egos to take a break from basking in the limelight and leave room for solutions. Rabbi Eliezrie, you write very well, but you too just bashed the ones who bashed. It’s like the little kid sent to find another kid who’s lost, so the second one doesn’t come back, and they send another to find the first two…. Please somone with brains, ideas, healthy ego and truly concerned about the very serious issues rather than insulting the writers, DO SOMETHING. We are not all in a position to effect proactive change. Not every well-meaning person… Read more »

Definitely not the right voice...
Guest
Definitely not the right voice...

You come up with a series of great suggestions. one might expect that you would welcome dialog and open discussion. Yet, when I tried to cantact you numerous times, after you appeared on radio broadcasts, and expressed your views regarding the inyon of Moshiach, you ignored my messages and never felt that I was worthed an answer. I cannot accept any of the above coming from someone that doesn’t feel thata fellow Lubavitcher is worthed to be spoken to.

Someone SHUT HIM UP!!!
Guest
Someone SHUT HIM UP!!!

Nobody denies there are pressing problems in Lubavitch that are not being addressed. Some seem to be impossible to solve. But that admission, one that I think everyone agrees with, is not changing any time soon. Unfortunately, Lubavitch is splintering & different factions pop up every day (or so it seems.) My main beef, however, is that Shmuelly Boteach has no business airing our dirty laundry in public. No matter how much a couple may fight behind closed doors, more often than not they project a united front to the world. Who the hell does Boteach think he is, to… Read more »

poeple, poeple
Guest
poeple, poeple

what’s with all the bitterness and hate?! live and let live. It’s summer time. relax. learn something, broaden your minds

Yshar Koach to COL
Guest
Yshar Koach to COL

A big Yshar Koach for airing such an important discussion and offering such a dignified article [unlike Rabbi Korf’s]

A Shliach in TX

a shliach private versus public
Guest
a shliach private versus public

the reason why Boteach has to voice his opinion publicly is because he and countless others who were stiffed by the Organization privately, continue to be stiffed privately and dealing with it privately has only EMBOLDENED the corrupt power mongers. ALL the top guys in Merkos and the Chabad system had all these years to do some improvement regarding issues that everyone now agrees has been festering for all these years. Has even one mamoshisdike lepoyel improvent taken place all these years. or is there even more continued infighting going on??? no one has done anything and things are only… Read more »

beverlyhillsprincess
Guest
beverlyhillsprincess

what the heck! just delete this article look how everyone is fighting!!!!!! ITS NOT WORTH IT!!!!

Hey #23
Guest
Hey #23

On the eve of the 4th of July to say “Someone SHUT HIM UP!!!” is a disgrace. Please, find a communist country to your liking (china comes to mind) and go there.

to #27 (princess)
Guest
to #27 (princess)

Why don’t you lock yourself up in your Beverly Hills palace and pretend there are no problems in the world?

Yeshivah "system"
Guest
Yeshivah "system"

Rabbi Eliezri is basically saying that because Lubavitch is big it’s bound to have problems. So there is nothing to be concerned about. Shkoiach. That’s really helpful. (sarcasm) One of the problems that has been festering for years is the Yeshivah “system”. Not even 50% of bochurim who graduate can read a blat Gemooro and Rashi without an artscroll. The situation is so bad that many of today’s young melamdim need an Artscrol themselves to prepare their class. Bochurim call the system the “conveyor belt”. Your 16? Poof you go into Zal. Your 17? Poof you go into shiur beis.… Read more »

the
Guest
the

problem we face that when we don t see the rebbe one thinks that he is bigger then the next

and what worse is that when we say the rebbe is doing every thing

Gimmel Taamuz
Guest
Gimmel Taamuz

All those making Lubavitch out to be a miserable institution fettered with corruption etc. One small question: If you would offer any Lubavitcher on Gimmel Tammuz of nun daled; a glimpse into the future, and present to him with a glimpse into the way Lubavitch currently looks, how many Lubavitchers would have a problem with that? I would venture to say none. Are we perfect? No. But how is Lubavitch faring under the circumstances of Golus? I would say A-. Reminds me of the dieters scenario; if you have an obese person who loses 150 lbs. to attain his ideal… Read more »

To 26
Guest
To 26

You make a good point. However, I must ask you…do you believe PUBLICLY should mean for the whole (Jewish) world to see what’s going on? Yes, we should be ashamed of the disgraceful events that keep happening since Gimmel Tammuz. But they should be solved within, not by advertising our problems to the world to make a buck & to get yet more publicity. Why should we be Boteach’s source of income? He is getting fat on our tsoros, without stepping up to the plate. Talk is cheap; it’s easy to criticize, but I have yet to see him DO… Read more »

to # 32
Guest
to # 32

“Reminds me of the dieters scenario; if you have an obese person who loses 150 lbs. to attain his ideal weight, but can’t manage to get off the last 15 lbs., ”

Who are you trying to fool? the problems are closer to 150 than going down, and because of this kind of attitude Chabad will turn obese.

# 3 I agree with you
Guest
# 3 I agree with you

Out of this whole thing, comment #38 on the last article is the most intelligent, clearly written, and useful piece of writing on this subject. COL – please contact the writer, if possible, and ask permission to reprint it as an article of its own. With that said, come on guys, there’s alot of talk and comments here. I don’t know Boteach, or what he did, so I will leave that to people who are nogeah in this, but that aside, we all know what’s going on, we all know the issues, now let’s actually do something about them, instead… Read more »

Calm Down
Guest
Calm Down

In response to 8, it is an act of respect to call people as they wish to be called. Shmuley, it seems to me (although i do not know him personally) prefers to be called Shmuley, and has made a name for himself (pardon the pun) with that moniker. As for Rabbi Korf, i see no reason to refrain from calling him by a title for which he worked hard, and presumabely deserves. BTW, I too did not see Korf’s article as respectful or appropriate in tone or content. As to Shmuley’s original article, i do not recall all of… Read more »

Are you part of the solution or the problem?
Guest
Are you part of the solution or the problem?

By the time I write my comment, 32 comments have been posted. What have these commentators done to solve the supposed crisis in Lubavitch? Until Moshiach comes NOTHING and NO ONE save for tsadikim will be perfect. That’s a given, You can now discuss the negative that you will find be everyone and in everything. Consider this job security since you will always find something to criticize. Or you may consider looking at 1) the existing positive 2) ways to fix what doesn’t yet work. There is a shiduch crisis. Perhaps yet most people do get married. There is an… Read more »

please
Guest
please

If you can’t spell properly, please don’t post! How can you expect someone to respect your opinion, if you appear uneducated!!!!

to #29
Guest
to #29

please get a life everyone has problems just some are not worth fighting over.

To #39
Guest
To #39

Like the future of Lubavitch? Yeah, I suppose it’s not worth straightening out at all.

Huh????
Guest
Huh????

Rabbi Eliezrie, I don’t get you.

You write that one rabbi is rehashing known issues, the other is avoiding the answers,

But you yourself do both in the very same article.

Don’t throw stones — you live in a glass house.

ridiculous article
Guest
ridiculous article

Rabbi Eliezrie,

Do you not realize that your article is even more ludicrous than the two you are criticizing?

This is plain embarrassing.

Rabbi Eliezri misses the point.
Guest
Rabbi Eliezri misses the point.

You criticize Rabbi Korf for not adding any substance to the debate but you, while using nicer words, don’t add anything either.

It seems to me that your only point is to say that Chabad is generally good. That is what Rabbi Boteach said in the opening lines of his article.

(our-me included) problem
Guest
(our-me included) problem

anonymous comments!!!!!

Eliezrie is a Shmuley wannabe!
Guest
Eliezrie is a Shmuley wannabe!

this article is pure merkos propaganda

he says nothing!

to 20
Guest
to 20

Pittsburgh!

Another Anash Member
Guest
Another Anash Member

Yashar Koach R’ elezrie for responding. Almost everyone agrees that R’ Botaech is out of line for raising these issues but R’Korf left me feeling embarressed for my fellow chasidim and shluchim. R’ Eliezri says these issues have been around for a while and are being discussed and addressed by the appropriate people. Most people would disagree with those assertions. R’ Elizery I encourage you to stand up and aknowledge publicly that Chabad institutions are permeated with nepotism that destroys the core mission and vision of the mosed. Once you (or any other Chabad leader) do that, they can offer… Read more »

The Rebbe's take on nepotism
Guest
The Rebbe's take on nepotism

When someone told the Rebbe that he is nervous to go work for his father in law, the Rebbe reassured him by saying ‘ich arbet oich far mine shver’

Mother
Guest
Mother

I am concerned with all the issues: I have kids waiting for a shlichus assignment (and no connections whatsoever), I have kids in the shidduchim parsha (also no connections whatsoever), kids veering off the derech and a kid having a hard time getting into a chassidishe mesifta for a variety of reasons. I have asked for shluchim to work with these sub-communities of families like mine, rather than have shluchim go help businessmen in Laos, Cambodia, etc- but I guess we are not glamerous enough or don’t have enough money to sustain such help. If Chabad leaders don;t quickly recognize… Read more »

To all complainers of SB
Guest
To all complainers of SB

I bThere is something called a pressure cooker effect. There is a certain amount of patients you can expect from someone. Vdal

A Shliach
Guest
A Shliach

to #33 #36 I don’t get you at all. So if you agree that privately where the issues are squashed from being addressed AND all the guys on top are doing nothing (and much worse – read on) — where else should the issues be taken to. This notion that since we are so big, problems are expected, is the most callous and not only insensitive but actually the problem itself to cover up and wash away the corruption. Can you imagine going to the NYPD or LAPD with a complaint regarding one of their officers who abused his power… Read more »

shliach
Guest
shliach

Rabbi Eliezrie,
Nothing personal, but when those who run Merkos and stop deleting shluchims names from the “data base” who were sent out by the Rebbe, not going to din Torahs and even where one is not abiding by the psak , d putting in new “shluchim” (they are not the Rebbe’s shluchim) in areas where an existing shliach has been for many years, when you correct that you can speak.

how do you pronounce boteach?
Guest
how do you pronounce boteach?

bow-teach (same pronunciation as peach)? or bow-tayach (ch like chabad) (like cholam beis, tzere taf, patach ches)?

To #49
Guest
To #49

The most intelligent post of all.

Rabbis Korf, Boteach & Eliezrie…do you hear this mother? Or are you too busy pontificating to do anything PRACTICAL?

to #36
Guest
to #36

so because everyone else does it, we can do it too????

I thought we were supposed to be the best. we are supposed to set the standards.

You ever ask a kid in class why he or she is not behaving and get an answer, well everyone was also doing it!!! DUH??? get a life and grow up Chabad is supposed to be the best remember that.

The correct pronunciation
Guest
The correct pronunciation

is anything but Bow-TAY-akh as that would convey a meaning of trust or belief and would be very inappropriate for this wannabe Oprah.

My G-D!!!
Guest
My G-D!!!

I never knew people can be so bitter…

to 49
Guest
to 49

And are YOU working on the problems? Or just trolling by claiming you have every single issue that is covered here?

FUNNY!!
Guest
FUNNY!!

This article is funny for its irony. It reminds me of my two little girls talking about how their friend talks loshon horro. It simply does not occur to them that they doing EXACTLY the same thing.

The Gemorro says that if a person calls someone else a mamzer, we have to look at the name callers’ yichus because chances are he himself is a mamzer. Rabbi Eliezry, I’ve never met you before, and I’m sure you’re a nice guy, but take a long, good look in the mirror before you write articles like this.

his children
Guest
his children

one of the reasons he (SB) has written these articles is for SHEDDUCH reasons. He has to marry off alot of kids and he wants to do repentence in the eyes of the CHABAD pool of kids.

From 49
Guest
From 49

To 58 This is how I am working on the problems: I encourage my 2 children waiting for shlichus to keep looking, keep learning, keep taking assignments during the summer, Yomim Tovim, etc to help other shluchim. It is hard for young families to do this, but it keeps them from being bitter, that their goals are not being realized so quickly. For shidduchim- we just met up with Mrs. Bernath of Chicago Shidduch and are helping others with their shidduchim- won’t solve the crisis but can help someone, for my kids veering off- I don’t know what to do… Read more »

seen it all
Guest
seen it all

Rabbi Eliezrie, First, Mazel Tov on your daughter’s wedding. Your family should only go from simcha to simcha gezunteheit and freilicheheit (with deep pockets). Reb Dovid, we know each other very well. For that reason your letter bothers me. RSB is an intelligent gifted writer who brings up valid issues. Unfortunately, he’s got too much baggage to be a voice for morality and sanity. RYK in his diatribe violated every rule of honest intelligent debate and made himself out for a fool to boot. Which brings me to your piece. You said yeah we got problems, complex issues, but hey… Read more »

major issues
Guest
major issues

The problems in Lubavitch are enormous, and until the people in leadership positions are ready to honestly deal with them and get the corrupt individuals out of positions of leadership I don’t know if we can even start to solve them. We are so busy patting ourselves on the back for great programs, big Dinners and fancy events, but what happened to our chinuch? Why are people who are corrupt individuals permitted to stay in positions of power, hurting honest and hard working peoples lives. there are many Lubavitchers who are hurting terribly. It’s time we take care of our… Read more »

On Shlichus
Guest
On Shlichus

As it has been ever since Jews became a people, there is never a shortage of opinions. Especially when you get heated enough to be slinging mud and taking sides. The great news that some people have pointed out is that b”h we’ve got the conversation going and realize that it’s not the headache that will go away on its own. People are in pain. People are suffering. Mothers are crying. Girls are lonely. Shluchim aren’t Shluchim anymore. And on and on. The reaction from RYK that RSB has no right to be “airing the dirty laundry of Chabad” in… Read more »

Thank you Rabbi Eliezrie
Guest
Thank you Rabbi Eliezrie

For your sane response.

For putting Yossi Korf in his place.

For acknowledging that Boteach had valid points, while giving him a little criticism too.

Yossi Korf: please send your articles to a mashpia before publishing them and creating unnecessary firestorms where non existed. Did you think you were helping, or were you just trying to throw a few punches of your own?

Askonim or Chassidishe Rabbonim
Guest
Askonim or Chassidishe Rabbonim

The Rebbe said publicly to all chassidim (in 5748 and more) that the ones to be listened to and looked to for guidance and policy are the Chassidishe Rabbonim in each city. not Askonim.

of course we need very good and influential askonim to accomplish things, but they were NOT charged by the Rebbe to GUIDE and LEAD chassidim. the Rabbe said to consult with Chassidishe Rabbonim, and when you follow their directives – you are following the Rebbe.

Moshiach Now!

Yay #64!!
Guest
Yay #64!!

THANK YOU for your beautiful suggestion…and know that at least one person is going to take it to heart.
Another hachlata for the so-called “ego problem”: Learn about having bittul and work on it. No one is perfect, so all of us can work on this to some degree or another. I’m not on shlichus yet (officially…even though in reality we’re all shluchim) but I will b”n try to help the situation of the future by learning from the Rebbe’s teachings and personal example of being strong-willed yet very humble.

To read all of this.....
Guest
To read all of this.....

The Boteach/Korf debate, the No solution article of Eliezry.

To think that people outside of Lubavitch are reading all of this.(But , is there any other option?)

To know that Boteach is right ,But the last person to give Muser.

To see a shliach like Korf giving him a ‘chaylek’ but instead he comes out like a total fool.

To see Eliezry using this debate to pump up some more ego to himself and his friends.

what is there left to say? Shmuly Boteach, once again you will be the topic of this Shabbes in the bungelow colonies.

Its painfull………

X