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Thursday, 25 Shevat, 5780
  |  February 20, 2020

On Long Hair And Young Girls

A clip showing a frum Jewish school measuring the hair length of their students has caused a stir and deserves a halachic analysis. Full Story, Video

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sick
Guest
sick

taleban

Divorced women
Guest
Divorced women

Reb Moshe TZ”L spoke about a very clear hetter for divorced women and what they can do in specific situations. I will not write it here as I do not want to tell people what they can or can’t do. That is the job of our Rabbanim.

I do have to add that as someone who B”H has never really struggled with tznius, when hair length became an issue made me want to throw in the towel on all of it.

Chassidim means lifnei misheras hadin
Guest
Chassidim means lifnei misheras hadin

Well its a good thing we know that we are chassidim who go lifnei mishuras hadin, we add extra to the shulchan aruch. Enough of our tznius rules and minhagim are not found in the shulchan aruch and we proudly follow them anyways as they are the minhag of the communuty. Minhag yisroel torah hi.

Hmmm
Guest
Hmmm

ThIs will be Bnos Menachem soon.
I’m just betting how long it will take for it to happen.

SHAME
Guest
SHAME

ITS A SHAME THAT IT CAME DOWN TO THIS WHO IS ALLOWING THIS

the lady measurer
Guest
the lady measurer

the biggest chutzpah, is that the lady checking isnt even wearing a sheitel!!!!!!
she should care about her halachos, which is way more important. a married lady unznius is totally wrong

interesting,
Guest
interesting,

Why put this on here/hair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????
This is for the Lakewood school and their business!

Long Hair and Ornaments
Guest
Long Hair and Ornaments

The ornaments that little girls are now wearing in their hair not long ago would only be considered for girls’ birthday parties and looks comical. The fluffy headbands etc. , the princess look,bare not modest. I am glad that a school is taking a stand that will teach the girls self respect. That they are beautiful through actions and not hair.

unbelievable
Guest
unbelievable

this is insane! Maybe soon they will start measuring the length and shape of their noses if it’s not too pretty and attractive? so ridiculous!!

AWESOME!
Guest
AWESOME!

coffee+
col comments=
yayyyyyyy

now i just gotta wait for them:)

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous

What I this?! An army base?!

With what authority has this author written this article?
Guest
With what authority has this author written this article?

I have personally contacted numerous lubavitcher rabanim about this very issue and was told very differently that this author concludes.
In Torah shebaal pe, neviim etc, long hair is considered pritzusdik and not modest. The definition of long hair may be debatable since it is not clearly defined in halacha. However the concept of long loose hair being immodest is clear.
It is wrong to write or post an article like this that is coming to teach a halacha without quoting at least one rav who agrees…

Measuring Tapes!
Guest
Measuring Tapes!

Women are women’s worst enemy. It is not dignified for a girl to stand in line, like a cow, to have her hair measured. Its not tznius, its not dignified, its not how to treat a bas melech. Our generation is one of extremes – from one extreme to another on the pendulum. We have people walking around like perutzos, which are feh and not tznius, and we have the measuring tape and the tznius which is also not tznius. Frumkeit has become so artificial and superficial. Where once we spoke of an ‘erliche yid’ ie a person with integrity… Read more »

Mafi
Guest
Mafi

Why can’t people just lighten up a bit. These are little girls, not even teenagers. They just like to look pretty

I went to public school in the late 50's & 60's.
Guest
I went to public school in the late 50's & 60's.

We were not allowed to wear our long hair loose & free. It had to be in a ponytail, braid or bun. This doesn’t seem so outrageous to me. Times may have changed, but it shouldn’t have to be for the worst!

To #6
Guest
To #6

Different communities have different standards. There are some very big rabbonim, Litvish and Sfardic, that forbid a sheitel. Obviously we don’t follow that, but don’t say others are breaking Halacha. They can say the same about you.

Thighs
Guest
Thighs

When it comes to skirt length there is a clear consensus amounts poskim, Reb Moshe Feinstein, Reb Shlomo Zalman Orebach, Chacham Ovadia Yosef and the Lubavitcher Rebbe all explained that the skirt to reach four inches below the knee, covering the knee is part of Daas Moshe meaning it is Min HaTorah. The Aibishter is a Kol Yachol and able to give every person the attention they need and keep this Din of covering the knees with a skirt at the same time.

Real Tznius
Guest
Real Tznius

Tznius has halachic guidelines like knees being covered by skirt however most of the art of tznius is the art of not being a center of attention, or to where does one lead another persons attention. Tznius requires body language skills, voice, and dress skills etc a women who covers according to the din yet attracts attention, is not really tznius.

Public Humiliation
Guest
Public Humiliation

Since when is it allowed to embarrass another.
its a clear halacha that states that if you embarass someone publicly you dont have a por…….
In this video and many other educators in the name of upholding yidishkeit publicly humiliate their students
Its something that has no place by yidden
in this video the teacher could have taken the children one by one to the side and checked them quietly and told them if they need to shorten their hair but no lets embarrass this girl so that she will remember that in the name of protecting yiddishkeit you are worthless

לא תוסף עליו ולא תגרע ממנו
Guest
לא תוסף עליו ולא תגרע ממנו

“לא תוסף עליו ולא תגרע ממנו” (דברים יג,א) הם שני איסורים דאורייתא. יש רפורמים חילונים שעוברים על איסור דאורייתא “לא תגרע ממנו”, ויש רפורמים חרדים שעוברים על איסור דאורייתא “לא תוסף עליו”. בהרבה ישיבות לא מלמדים שגם “לא תוסף עליו” זה איסור דאורייתא, וממציאים חידושים כל כך נפלאים שאפילו משה רבנו לא ידע מהם. ה’ אמר לאדם לא לאכול מעץ הדעת. אדם הוסיף סייג לדברי ה’ ואמר לחוה גם “ולא תגעו בו”. לאדם היתה כוונה טובה – הוא רצה להרחיק את אשתו מהחטא. הוא רצה שהיא לא תיגע בעץ כדי שלא תתפתה לאכול ממנו. ואז גם אמרה חוה לנחש “ולא… Read more »

sickening!!!!!
Guest
sickening!!!!!

sick people!!! this girls will never ever forget the humiliation!!
the ladies in the video look disturbed to me! no normal person would do that!
focus on whats important! stop traumatizing girl!
בושה וחרפה!!

To #16
Guest
To #16

Yes that’s true.
HOWEVER, the lady wearing a snood/ hat, has her hair sticking out.
That’s assur according to EVERYONE….

To COLLIVE.
We have enough issues in our own shechuna.
Why bring in Lakewood politics to CH……

Why is everyone getting carried away??
Guest
Why is everyone getting carried away??

They want the girls to have shorter hair because of lice.

Instead of Girl's Hair Check-Time to Check Your Innerself
Guest
Instead of Girl's Hair Check-Time to Check Your Innerself

We the women who were at the Rebbe’s Farbrengen never heard about 4 inches below the knee or about hair lenghths. It’s a shame that people are mixing up the young generation.Why are we looking in other places and other Seforim when the Rebbe guided us all along.The Rebbe guided US all along in Everything. In one of the Likutei Sichos the Rebbe writes that the Yetzer Hora can wear a Shtreimel, a Kapote and a Spodik.He can come and tell us to do Mitzvohs but it’s coming from another side. Not from a good place! I think all those… Read more »

Give 'em a Break
Guest
Give 'em a Break

1. The girls don’t look humiliated, they look bemused… no one is hacking at their tresses with scissors on the spot, CV”S. 2. The lady in the snood is clearly receiving instructions/orders, not giving them, so perhaps we should judge her kindly. 3. Since when is it a bad thing for girls to see the chumras of their community or school being followed/enforced? No one is kicking them out of classrooms (ahem) or chasing them down halls – this is clearly being done in an orderly fashion, before the start of the school year, to inform the girls/parents if they… Read more »

give me a break
Guest
give me a break

embarrassing a girl in front of her whole class that is not Tznius, they could of took the girl aside and told her that her hair was a little to long, what are they going to think of next

I agree with 23
Guest
I agree with 23

I think it’s all about LICE and they are just trying to sound, so whatever you want to say.
think of it this way they got big family, and if one kid gets lice all the kids get it. The problem is. that they are blaming it on religion, and that Is the Problem. Just tell the girl the truth.
“we are cutting your hear because we don’t want you to get lice” and with long hear you are much more likely to get lice.

#17
Guest
#17

please bring your source where its written 4 inches below the knee.

#13 so true
Guest
#13 so true

When tznius is taken to the extreme it is also not tznius and adding your own laws is desecrating the real mitzvah so how about dropping the fake laws to feel holy and superior because that’s not true holiness, we are all just humans at the end of the day.

To #23
Guest
To #23

The article is not about lice

My two cents
Guest
My two cents

I went to public school in the 70s/80s- we all knew long hair was pritzus. We wanted to draw that kind of attention to ourselves. You will not see people of importance with that kind of hair. Even the military has strict rules for hair length. For anyone who is bt – note the musical hair. When suddenly long flowing hair became acceptable in the 60s as morality disintegrated.

There is a way
Guest
There is a way

Every private school has the right to a dress code, and if a parent doesn’t like it, they are free to school their child elsewhere. But no school has the right to humiliate a child (or parent). If a school has a hair length rule, it can enforce it in private. The way this school enforces its rules is a poor choice And yes, this belongs on COL becuase some Chabad school exhibit that same destructive practice of public humiliation and enforcement of their rules. Especially if a rule is presented as existing to uphold Yiddishkeit, to enforce the rule… Read more »

Austin, TX
Guest
Austin, TX

A great way to turn off a jewish girl from Yiddishkite!! So sad.

Truly wish this video wasn't posted
Guest
Truly wish this video wasn't posted

Number 25 is spot on. The humiliation caused to the students AND teachers in having this video go viral is awful. Clearly the teacher needs was following school policy. I feel truly sorry for her and her family. This is not something people are likely to forget any time soon. In all honesty, we have our own issues. I truly wonder what positive result the author and col thought could come of posting this online. Only loshon Horah and gossip. And more gossip. So not what we need ever, especially in Chodesh Ellul. May we all recognize our weak points,… Read more »

Kop Doktar
Guest
Kop Doktar

Rabi Yair, pure silliness! Why not make a “halachic analysis” about school uniforms: Is there a halachic basis for having school uniforms? And if there is such a basis, is this the normative halacha in our circles or not?

Girls are sent home if they are caught out of uniform!

Short hair is the “uniform” of certain schools.

No dangling earrings is what other schools insist on.

What is the problem???!!!

Tr wearing a t-shirt to certain boys yeshivas and you will be sent home.

Same if boy has shoulder length hair!

Analyse that!

Snood?
Guest
Snood?

With her hair exposed????
and this is someone the girls are supposed to look up to and respect???

# 20
Guest
# 20

Wow have you hit nail on head
Sad you are anonymous
You would make FANTASTIC Mashpia
Inspirational and ever so objectively presented

# 2
Guest
# 2

That is intellectually disingenuous
I will post the sources
אבן העזר א נז
אבן העזר ד לב: ד

# 12
Guest
# 12

Rav Hoffman quotes heavy weight sources
Just read the article and open SA these commentators are very accepted in Klal Yisroel

Poor girls!
Guest
Poor girls!

I feel bad for the girls on the video. Doesn’t anyone think of their feelings? Is that Tznius to post this video of them…. And now it has gone viral…..

to # 32
Guest
to # 32

100% true i agree all the way .

curious
Guest
curious

what’s interesting to me is that from the looks of the girls’ hair, it seems like they’ve all just taken their hair out of either braids or a ponytail. The hair looks like it was not even being worn loose. Even more interesting, is that one of the girls being checked, whose hair doesn’t even seem like it’s too long, has a very noticeable gap between where her knee socks end and her skirt begins, with skin definitely exposed, but it seems like none of the people in charge are even pointing it out to the girl!

Awful
Guest
Awful

The awful and controlling way these little girls are being treated in the video, even attempting to give an analysis on it is a disgrace!!

First they came for the socks...
Guest
First they came for the socks...

If the girl’s hair (down loose) is longer than the prescribed length, they have to get it cut. What right does a school have to say how long hair can be if it is tied up and neat? This nanny-state is unacceptable.

Larry
Guest
Larry

Rip it off like an old band-Aid just bring out the berkas already. All of this what’s going is turning off more and more of our kids today it’s all fun and games for the teachers for the kids as they get older they’re going to be resentful to all this. And besides why is everybody so obsessed with only this issue and not the rest of the torah

to #6
Guest
to #6

I live near a large Litvish community and there is nothing wrong with a cloth head covering in that community. The Rebbe wanted Lubavitchers to wear sheitlach in public but the rest of the world is not obligated to observe that standard.

Herumph...
Guest
Herumph...

I agree that it is too bad the video was taken and posted. I am sure the teachers and students did not give permission to the one holding the camera to make their images public. I also think the spectacle is overkill. A ruler!! This is a chumra on a minhag. If the policy is that a girl’s hair should be no longer than the collarbone then say that and leave it at that. You don’t have to subject every student to a public affirmation. If a teacher notices a girl with hair that is clearly too long (forget a… Read more »

No 6 AGREE
Guest
No 6 AGREE

Don’t be holier than thou!
Although not in favor …….Can’t judge why they do this just wish wasn’t posted here!

Models
Guest
Models

Models all have long hair. Nuf said.

To #28 Skirt length
Guest
To #28 Skirt length

letter of the Rebbe, 13 Cheshvan , 5732
“My opinion is known that the proper length that applies equally to all Jewish daughters and in all places is that the [length of the garment be such that the] knees be covered even while sitting.”
Also the famous Yechidus with Rabbi Gafni

Funny
Guest
Funny

Before all you elitist chadsters jump on the bandwagon to point out those litvaks, lets not forget the controversy of Bnos Menachem which had record breaking comments here on this site. Its a a real shame how one is so quick to point out problems in other communities and how quickly they forget their own!

#13
Guest
#13

Very well said !!! Agree totally !

It’s not about the length of the hair if appropriate or not .
But more about how we go about doing things .

To #3 The "Proud Chassid"
Guest
To #3 The "Proud Chassid"

Oh ya? You are on top of everyone else? Oh ya it is a good thing that we are Chassidim and better than everyone else isnt it? You say not only do we (Chassidim) follow the tznius laws, we also add to them? Really?! Have you walked down Kingston ave? Is that what you mean by “add to them”? What a Pity..

Answer
Guest
Answer

Many comments not sure why the article is posted here. Well for one thing maybe it is posted here because “Kol Yisrael areivim ze la ze”? I know its difficult to accept that in this community because we only care about matters pertaining to us. Or maybe it is very similar to the “Bnos Menachem” issue? And for all those complaining why “lakewood” topics are posted on this “exclusive” chabad site, do you know how many Chabad related topics are posted on “exclusive” non-chabad sites? Should chabad be banned from any other site other than COL? How would you like… Read more »

to #2
Guest
to #2

if there is an issue halachically then its an issue
emunah and kabolas ol is not just doing something when we have no problem with it
its doing something even if “us with our own sechel doesnt agree….”

#46
Guest
#46

the rebbe didnt say only lubavitchers should wear a sheitel. its for the whole world. and all the time some1 tries to fight the rebbe on it

On long hair and young girls
Guest
On long hair and young girls

Dear controlling ones, Leave the young girls and their long hair alone!

to #56
Guest
to #56

The Rebbe was not directing sheital wearing to the whole world. The Rebbe did prefer sheitals because they would not expose the hair or be easily removed in awkward situations but the Litvish, Chassidishe, and Sephardic communities clearly have their own levush and the Rebbe also told those who came into Lubavitch to maintain their original levush. That is why there are Lubavitcher men with shtreimlach and women with covered sheitals. Some Chassidishe shave their heads and wear Shpritzels (sp?) and Lubavitch does not look down on that or on groups who have their own levush.

Leave us alone
Guest
Leave us alone

Girls have enough rules as it is, adding more rules isn’t helpful. It’s like what Adam did to Chava- telling her that you can’t even touch the tree-which caused Chet Eitz Hadas!

To number 53 from number 3
Guest
To number 53 from number 3

What do you mean by better than everyone else? First of all it says clearly in pirkei avos that a chossid goes lifnei mishuras hadin so litvish people can also be chassidim. Second of all its very healthy to be proud of who you are and what you stand for and this does not mean that this same person disrespects others. Third of all I regularly walk down Kingston and am proud to notice many many many women in crown heights that dress lifnei mishuras hadin. And the ones that don’t obviously dont consider themselves chassidim in this area.

Whats next
Guest
Whats next

Was the school thinking about the kids, what this might do to them to put their picture on the web so everyone can see, they could of took the girls aside and talked to them, if they were so concerned about the length of their hair, that is not Tznius,

TO #3 and #60
Guest
TO #3 and #60

“And the ones that don’t obviously dont consider themselves chassidim in this area.” Not so obvious. Maybe YOU dont consider them chassidim but then again, you arent the one in charge of what people consider themselves. On another note thats like saying your only a chossid if you do no wrong. But I dont know how many people who consider themselves chossidim, do no wrong simply because of their label. So if there is anything wrong with what someone is doing, then you turn to defense mode and state that they arent chassidim in order to protect that name. Doesnt… Read more »

Stop pushing yiddiskeit away
Guest
Stop pushing yiddiskeit away

When people will understand they teaching the wrong way Ashem is not stopping on your hair length .all those girls from frum background have sheitel so Long this is a revolt to all this none sense so many friends of mine turn around to yiddiskeit because all this none sense Stop adding the Not allowed stop making a new torah If my child was in this school I will take her out right there It’s a shame reading a article like this I wanted to run away from the religious people. Enough if we want to being Moshiach Time is… Read more »

A good school? All the worse...
Guest
A good school? All the worse...

I take issue with the author’s niceties about this being an excellent school. That makes this all the worse!! If it was some fringe school that was viewed by everyone as being over the top then we could all ignore it but when it is seen as the gold standard then they will inadvertently impose their chumras on all the other schools. It is very easy to raise the bar of extremes. It is more difficult to find leniencies if they are needed. Klal Yisroel loses out because they are held hostage by those who, in many people’s eyes, go… Read more »

The Rebbe said
Guest
The Rebbe said

that girls’ hair should either be short or else “gathered”, i.e. in a ponytail or braid(s). I remember this personally but I’m sorry I can’t cite the exact sicha.

# 65,
Guest
# 65,

When you quote a Pesak halocho
You must quote source
Never good to just to say I personally know

The Contradiction!
Guest
The Contradiction!

Young girls! What about married women! “We shouldn’t pass judgment…blah, blah, blah” This writer is so off the mark. You should be writing about the sickness of the tight tight tight tight skirts that Chabad women are shamelessly wearing and that their Chasidisshe husbands allow them out with. This article is a deflection from the real problem and frankly, is insulting to thinking people. If our married women are walking around like this now, what do you think their daughters are going to look like in a few years.

the girls were lined up for pre school year nit check
Guest
the girls were lined up for pre school year nit check

not to have hair length measured. yes, the school in question DOES have a policy about that, but, they are not lining up the girls to measure their hair. at nit check if they feel someone is ignoring the policy they check.

To #46
Guest
To #46

One of the reasons that the rebbe was so pro sheitel is exactly this reason . The woman who thinks her hair is so well covered with her snood , is exposing her hair!!

to #69 from #46
Guest
to #69 from #46

The Rebbe was indeed pro sheitel and would not have approved of the snood that the woman is wearing in public, however, we also have to wonder if the Rebbe would have approved of the sheitlach that young women often buy today. Years ago, women both inside and outside of Lubavitch looked to the Rebbe for guidance on hair coverings. Today, these women have to listen to the leadership in their own communities. In that woman in the picture’s circles, women usually do wear wigs to work but don’t necessarily change out of their house snoods for minor errands. I… Read more »

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