ב"ה
Tuesday, 17 Elul, 5782
  |  September 13, 2022

Who is “Not Good Enough” For Who?

Op-Ed by Chana Kornfeld: "I’ve heard many such stories of children being thrown out or rejected from Lubavitch schools for not being “good enough” for the institution they desire to join or remain in." Full Story

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“Leave Them Alone”: Tom Suozzi Backs Yeshiva Education

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I'm trying to stay VERY CALM HERE
June 21, 2022 3:48 pm

10 years ago “since I didnt go to beis rivka and wasnt part of the system” so why woud someone want to suggest a shidduch?! After all the lies are HUGE when boys are SPECIFICALLY ASKING for “NOT A CROWN HEIGHTER” GIRL?! Bottom line so it reached yeshivos now. Okay. Next. When will the “system” change?! Still waiting. Just got worse!

WUT
Reply to  I'm trying to stay VERY CALM HERE
June 21, 2022 4:39 pm

I’m not sure if you succeeded at staying “very”—or even remotely—”calm” here. Though I can’t identify the central message of your comment, I can identify the emotion—rage. And I kinda liked it

Lubavitch
Reply to  WUT
June 22, 2022 9:23 am

I think she is saying that her life is harder because she didn’t go to one of the “elite” schools

No...
Reply to  Lubavitch
June 22, 2022 8:43 pm

My point was first its with shidduchim and they moved on to chinuch – to pick and choose who the system decides to accept and the rest thrown out. On the contrary I’m thrilled and honored to NOT be part of the system especially which boys were EXACTLY looking for.

Great piece.
June 21, 2022 3:55 pm

Love the interpretation of vaata tetzave.

So on point
June 21, 2022 4:02 pm

Thank you for writing this. There are too many Yeshivos today who don’t care about the boys… All they care about is their Yeshiva’s reputation, and the “name” their institution has. They say, this is not the place for you, please leave… You’re not the kind of boy we want in our Yeshiva. Even when the boy has nowhere else to go, and asks for another chance to stay. I’ve heard too many stories, from multiple Yeshivos… Rather than work with the boy to strengthen him and bring him close, they just say, leave, we’ll replace you with someone on… Read more »

Harrold
Reply to  So on point
June 21, 2022 4:24 pm

Yeshivos constantly struggle to balance the interest of an individual boy versus the interest of the other boys who might be influenced by the former. Often, boys who are “not up to par” in the learning pose a danger to the other boys because they tend to entertain themselves in forbidden ways, potentially influencing their friends. Yeshivos can protect the vulnerable group (and satisfy their obligation to those boys’ parents) by expelling the trouble-maker.

agreed
Reply to  Harrold
June 21, 2022 4:37 pm

not my experience. my son a very good boy but you have to beg beg beg beg beg. It’s called we like to be begged begged begged, and then we can be called an elite Yeshiva and then everyone wants to come, because we are so elite. That’s all it is.

agreed
June 21, 2022 4:02 pm

Thank you for the beautiful op-ed. May the Rebbe find Hatzlacha in having Chabad Yeshivas and Seminaries who live the Rebbe’s ideals of Ahavas Yisrael towards the children and parents, and who don’t make the parents call them for months on end to see if their child is worthy enough to be in their Yeshivah.

B’Ezras Hashem the Rebbe will pull through this as he does with everything, and then we will have Yeshivas, schools and Seminaries who will be the envy of the world!

I am looking forward to the day!

Parents have responsibility too
June 21, 2022 4:12 pm

There is not a word here about the responsibility of parents
Has the author considered that after years of parents allowing their children to be steeped in Internet and television exposure the mechanechim might be right to request a child to go elsewhere

School that fit your standards
Reply to  Parents have responsibility too
June 21, 2022 4:29 pm

If you have standards in your home that do not fit the education being taught at the Yeshiva, there are many Yeshivas that fit your standard and help you grow.
Its hard to understand how parents send their child to Beis Rivka, Lubavitch Yeshiva, etc…. and you live a life that is antithetical to what is being educated to your child at that school?

agreed
Reply to  Parents have responsibility too
June 21, 2022 4:38 pm

I will repeat what I wrote before, it is not my experience. my son a very good boy but you have to beg beg beg beg beg. It’s called we like to be begged begged begged, and then we can be called an elite Yeshiva and then everyone wants to come, because we are so elite. That’s all it is.

Food for thought.
Reply to  Parents have responsibility too
June 21, 2022 5:26 pm

Why is that the childs fault?

Parents responsibility/School's job
Reply to  Parents have responsibility too
June 22, 2022 9:52 am

I will not disagree that parents have a responsibility to raise their children consistently with the ideals that hey want their children to live by as they move on to adulthood. But, and I feel this strongly, that the schools fall back onto the excuse of the parents from the youngest ages. The issue is the chutzpah in elementary classrooms. The children putting the teachers down, insinuating that they are the bosses and the teacher is the underdog. The children think that they have control over the teacher and her moods and abilities to teach. It is not OK. BUT,… Read more »

If I see one more chinuch bashing article...
June 21, 2022 4:14 pm

I will officially quit Chinuch.
I devote my life to the Chinuch of the Rebbe’s children, in addition to my own. I work overtime and then some. The pay is negligible. The appreciation is non-existent.
The financial boards running schools control rather support the educational staff.
And then every other week someone with no concept of what it means to run a school or teach comes out with brilliant sounding article bashing everyone who is doing the work they aren’t willing to do.
I am so beyond tired of this negativity.

From a teacher
Reply to  If I see one more chinuch bashing article...
June 21, 2022 4:20 pm

If you are going to quit chinuch because of an article/s, please do us all a favor and do it now

Missed the point
Reply to  From a teacher
June 21, 2022 6:00 pm

Of no one is actually quitting because of an article. The point is that as a community we should consider how demoralizing it is for those who dedicate so much for our children and generally receive nothing but criticism.
Everyone is human.

Parents responsibility/School's job
Reply to  From a teacher
June 22, 2022 9:55 am

No this person is not weak at heart. He/she has worked hard, and is not being supported by a hanhala who is on the same chinuch page as he/she is. This is very sad. I hope that our schools’ hanhala’s are as educated in educational principles and the chinuch and hadracha of our Rebeim. We NEED this teacher.

read it again
Reply to  If I see one more chinuch bashing article...
June 21, 2022 4:24 pm

this isn’t an attack on teachers who we all know put their neshoma into teaching etc.
this is a total manahel and administration problem..

Menahalim
Reply to  read it again
June 22, 2022 1:07 am

And principals don’t put their neshama into Chinuch?! I personally know several individuals in positions of hanhallah in Chabad. Devoted heart and soul to the Rebbe’s children, working day and night, Shabbos and summer. There is no glory in hanhallah; only really hard work. Finding teachers, making schedules and programs, dealing with discipline issues, taking the fallout for everyone and everything.

And they don’t even receive the minimum of appreciation that teachers receive in the form of mishloach manos or end of year gifts and thank you cards.

Instead, they are the punching bags of Lubavitch.

She’s an experienced educator
Reply to  If I see one more chinuch bashing article...
June 21, 2022 4:30 pm

Chana Kornfeld has been teaching for the past 20 years, the last two years she’s been teaching in High school in Florida. With an attitude like yours, i hope you do quit teaching.

seminary teacher too
Reply to  She’s an experienced educator
June 21, 2022 4:35 pm

*she’s been teaching in high school and seminary in Florida.

If you have no patience for parents…
Reply to  If I see one more chinuch bashing article...
June 21, 2022 4:37 pm

If you have no patience for parents, I shudder to think what your patience is for the kids in your care. If you are doing a marvelous job, then you need not be insecure about the author Or my comment

No one appreciates constant criticism
Reply to  If you have no patience for parents…
June 21, 2022 6:03 pm

Students’ needs? Parents’ feelings? Thats not the same thing as constant criticism about what mechanchim and mechanchos are doing wrong.

agreed
Reply to  If I see one more chinuch bashing article...
June 21, 2022 4:40 pm

You sound like a teacher in a School. No one is bashing the teachers, we have the utmost respect, we are bashing the administrations of Yeshivas and Sems who have destroy countless kids because of their elitsm that the B’aal Shem tov came to this world to annual.

Harrold
June 21, 2022 4:21 pm

It’s interesting that we try to extrapolate from a ma’amer the Rebbe’s position on expelling boys from yeshiva. In order to determine the Rebbe’s view on “throwing out” bachurim from yeshivos, I don’t think we have to glace further than the Rebbe’s own correspondence with the staff of the Chabad yeshivos. The Rebbe encourage—or, instructed—on numerous occasions the staff of various yeshivos to expel bachurim.

This “unconditional love” talk makes good marketing, but developing opinions on the basis of a slogan while simultaneously ignoring that which has been explicitly written is lazy.

Site chapter and verse
Reply to  Harrold
June 21, 2022 4:32 pm

where did the Rebbe say to expel a student?

There is precedent
Reply to  Site chapter and verse
June 21, 2022 9:36 pm

The Rebbe Rashab and Frierdiker Rebbe kicked bochurim out for having books from the haskala. President Shazar was kicked out of Tomchei Temimim. Obviously it’s a last resort, and only if you really tried your hardest. Unfortunately though, every time a yeshiva has to do this, the parents (understandably) will always feel like it shouldn’t have happened, and they will always have ill feelings towards that menahel.

No offense CH"v
Reply to  There is precedent
June 22, 2022 2:04 am

Not to ch”v diminish the choices of the Rebbe Rashab and Frierdiker Rebbe, but as the article rightfully states, they lived in different times and had to address their Yeshivah differently. The Rebbe Rashab also expelled bochurim who’s yarmulkas fell off when they slept…so I don’t think this is a good comparison.

agreed
Reply to  Harrold
June 21, 2022 4:43 pm

You are being Motzi Shem Rah on the Rebbe. If you can find 1 letter like that you will find 100 the other way.

Joe
Reply to  Harrold
June 22, 2022 8:32 am

The rebbes opinion always was that the only reason hanholo can kick a bochur out of yeshiva is if he has a bad influence on others

Harrod
Reply to  Joe
June 22, 2022 11:37 am

Yes, Mr. Joe, and if you know anything about nearly all Lubavitcher Yeshivos, the only kick out bachurim who negatively influence others. And even when a bachur is a bad influence, they usually don’t kick him out. This article makes it seem like bachurim are regularly kicked out of yeshivos, but that’s not true—it’s a rare, last-resort solution.

When alternatives schools throw kids out
June 21, 2022 4:31 pm

Pretty sad when schools offer an alternative
And they too charge an arm and leg
And then throw the kids out instead of working with them
I’m so done with our system
This is why so many of our kids r going off the path

Most schools want fresh meat with easy work
Reply to  When alternatives schools throw kids out
June 21, 2022 6:20 pm

Even alternative school. Expel a student and accept a new promising replacement. The problem is not always about expelling. Sometimes they just make the student’s life a living h**l in order to make the student leave. Which one is better? Expelling a child and then the child has less chance to be accepted in a different school, or giving the child a better chance in another place since the child has never been expelled, but since the child as been traumatized, the child might have it more difficult in the next school and in other areas of life, or decide… Read more »

Btw
Reply to  Most schools want fresh meat with easy work
June 21, 2022 6:39 pm

“…. giving the child a better chance in another place since the child has never been expelled….” lucky for you if the yeshiva doesnt spread the word to save their ego/name that the child is a drop out and to ruin his name that another yeshiva shouldn’t take him either. Even with those children who are easy to work with…..

Open a school
Reply to  Most schools want fresh meat with easy work
June 22, 2022 1:12 am

Are you offering to open, fund and/or direct such a school that will offer the perfect alternative for these struggling neshamos?

AsherO
June 21, 2022 4:32 pm

Where are these sources of which you speak?

Pass the blame around
June 21, 2022 4:51 pm

Everyone has an opinion how Mesiras nefesh means for the other person. just a suggestion:
perhaps Mesiras nefesh means that parents should be less indulgent in gashmius, more careful not to dress children has goyim Because they look cute , less obsession with restaurants, less unnecessary Florida vacations , then perhaps our children will be more sensitive to the Torah way of life.
That’s also the meaning of hiskafya and today’s mesiras nefesh.

Rolling my eyes
June 21, 2022 4:54 pm

I’m so done with these takes on what needs to be changed. Where is the Kasis and Mesiras Nefesh from everyone that thinks like this to finally opening such a utopian Yeshivah? I mean, just press the button of ביטול בתכלית because it sure seems simple to ask the guys already doing it to go that much further. Mind you, it’s always coming from someone that’s not doing it. Imagine I scrolled down Collive every other day with another op-ed about why parents aren’t digging in dip to their etzem hanefesh to be completely Bitul and have perfect Sholom Bayis,… Read more »

What covid taught us
June 21, 2022 5:04 pm

chinuch happens at home. How can you allow your child to unlimited tik tok and social media, desensitize them to any values we are trying to impart , fill their mind with filth that will never be able to compete with the most enthusiastic teacher. Their language is in line with a tik tok education and then have expectations and complaints on the school. Your child was asked to leave a school ? Ask yourself 1. Are my personal standards in line with the schools standards? 2. Do I know my child or do I have this wishful image of… Read more »

So many misconceptions
June 21, 2022 5:27 pm

There are so many misconceptions about getting thrown out of yeshivah, which are mainly caused by entitled parents who are in denial about their childrens detrimental behavior. Firstly, the rebbeim would expell bachurim for their yarmulka falling off in their sleep, because it showed a subconscious lack of yiras shomayim. And in those days tomchei temmim was the only chassidish yeshivah around. So yes, when a yeshivah considers itself a chassidish yeshivah (or is trying to climb to that tier), and there is a bachur who is not only not succeding in yeshivah (which at that point he should find… Read more »

Biggest Brocho
June 21, 2022 5:28 pm

We were asked to find another yeshiva for our daughter because, “She doesn’t want to be here and is a negative influence on the other students.” After years of trying to keep our daughter in their school we finally went elsewhere and it was the biggest brocha. Instead of being punished for questioning “the party line”, our daughter flourished in a school where they accepted her where she was at and welcomed her questions.
But a school can not and should not expel a student until they have a placement for the child elsewhere.

school for girls
Reply to  Biggest Brocho
June 21, 2022 9:41 pm

please post the name of the school. its so hard to find schools for girls.

arm chair judges
June 21, 2022 5:53 pm

I agree with the post writer that if you have a school that represents itself as lubavitch = rebbe standards, then it should take a very extreme situation for a school to expel or reject a student. But it’s also easy to criticize and hard to do or build. I learned long ago that if I don’t like a school’s position (whether regarding admission, rejection, curriculum, etc.) I can discuss and request from teacher and administration, but cannot demand. My choices if my perspectives are not implemented, are to take what is provided or go elsewhere or make my own… Read more »

We pay we can demand in a nice way
Reply to  arm chair judges
June 21, 2022 11:00 pm

I think as yeshiva asking a parent to pay the bill as a parent we have a right to ask for better hinuh for our kinderlach, but in reality we even do not know who will be our teachers for the upcoming year … Sadly the teachers are underpaid and many bright people choosing different professions. Pay to the teacher and pay generously and only what is left keep to the Hanhala. Do the right business. Also put teachers with zero experience as an assistants first, then give them one hour to run the class /teach subject and only then… Read more »

uly
June 21, 2022 6:38 pm

schools should be ashamed of themselves instead of trying help a kid out that needs extra alittle more help or more attention from 20 year old teacher they say ur kid is the problem they never wanna blame themselves they just rather fill spot with another kid

Are we a cult?
June 21, 2022 6:41 pm

SOME Yeshivahs do so much to be merachek bochurim and girls, it’s horrible. If we are a cult, and the toxicity is coming from within, then I guess we did them a favor by veing merachek them. However, if our derech is the epitome of emes, and your yeshivah is engaged in disposing chelek elokah’s mimaal mamash, Hashem’s kids, like they’re a used tissue, just because they don’t bring your moisod aesthetic bragging rights, then Hashem will have his day with you. It isn’t a koontz to have automatic pilot bochurim learning. It’s a koontz to take a bochur who… Read more »

The Freidiker Rebbe's Directive
June 21, 2022 6:55 pm

When the Freidiker Rebbe opened Bais Rivkah didn’t he give a directive that the school should accept any girl who wants to attend?

What has happened to our mosdos?

Don't judge until you are in the other persons sho
Reply to  The Freidiker Rebbe's Directive
June 30, 2022 2:17 pm

Last time I Che ked, beis Rivkah accepts every student

I don’t agree
June 21, 2022 8:06 pm

There are indeed situations where a school is not the right fit for a child! We were just told my daughter school is not equipped to help her with her learning challenges. The teachers and administration were up front with us and told us they are not trained in special education and don’t have the capability to help her get to where she needs to go. Of course it stung at first but honestly I respect them for being up front rather than leading us on that they can help her! I’ve seen too many family members and friends kids… Read more »

what if they have nowhere else
Reply to  I don’t agree
June 23, 2022 2:18 am

if the issue is that the school is not trained, then let them get trained

let them get a resource room

there are a lot of things that can be in most situations where a school chooses to not allow a child to return, for starters is proper chinuch for teh educators in certain areas

$$$
Reply to  what if they have nowhere else
June 26, 2022 12:05 pm

Creating and staffing a resource room is expensive and a process. Not a magic switch you flip. A school had to hav the funds, the space and the staff to do this!

Don't judge until you are in the other persons sho
Reply to  I don’t agree
June 30, 2022 2:18 pm

I fully agree!

Finally someone who is speeking up!
June 21, 2022 10:06 pm

Thank you so much for being the voice to so many people who are going through this! Recently my two year old doughter was rejected from a certain head start in Crown Heights because she receives allot of therapy that benefits her So the school said that they can’t accommodate her because she receives a certain therapy which they claim they don’t have So I was willing to work with the school and get her therapy from a different agency and they refused. It’s just so frustrating that they call themselves the Rebbe’s school even though the Rebbe said to… Read more »

A G
June 21, 2022 10:14 pm

The issue is not asking parents to look for alternative options…. The issue is responsibility. If a certain school is asking a student to leave they should arrange for an alternative place for the student. Not leave the parents hanging

I agree with the general gist of this article
June 21, 2022 10:16 pm

But it is actually true that the original Tomchei Tmimim was what you could call elitist, only accepted those of a certain calumet and did occasionally expel bochurim.

TOIMCHEI TEMIMIM WAS DIFFERENT
Reply to  I agree with the general gist of this article
June 22, 2022 8:50 am

(1 toimchei temimim had only select special neshamos, because the seeds of toimchei temimim needed to planted. Nowadays however,the rebbe clearly said is a totally different story,and we should take everyone and accept everyone how they are EXACTLY like it says in this articl.so, to all thise who bring toimchei temimim as an excuse for yeshivos to treat struggling bochurim or girls badly,YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! (2 this article is the best one collive has ever published!!!! (3 it is very clear that the author had the yeshiva in westchester in mind as one of the failing ”elitist” yeshivos.it constantly treats… Read more »

'The Rebbeim Expelled Students'
June 22, 2022 2:16 am

To all those quoting the Rebbeim or The Rebbe. The previous Rabbeim lived in different times. Did you know that the Rebbe Rashab expelled students who’s Yarmulkas fell off when they slept? I don’t believe the Rebbe Rashab’s standards are the same standards we should be judging by. And our Rebbe did not on ‘numerous occasions’ and certainly did NOT ‘encourage’ the expelling of bochurim. If anything the Rebbe was ANTI-Expelling from Yeshivos. Perhaps a story here or there, but g-d forbid to compare it to today’s expelling rates. Today? It’s a dime a dozen. It’s status quo. I’m THAT… Read more »

When?
June 22, 2022 4:14 am

When are teachers and administrators going to understand that not everyone learns best in the same way? If we want our children to learn, we have to be exposed to what research shows us about learning. We need experts to educate US! There are many of us who have been underserved who suffer the consequences of uninformed educators who blame parents and/or the student. It’s wrong.

Lubavitch
June 22, 2022 9:21 am

I don’t know when this changed or why but back in the day in lubavitch most people didn’t go to yishiva only the top learners went

Common Sense
June 22, 2022 6:13 pm

If a student is not academically up to the standard of the yeshiva, and he will for sure “do better somewhere else,” (and he is actually able to go to that “somewhere else”), than he should definitely be go, as it is for his own good. If a student is having a negative effect on other students and there is no other way to stop him, the student must definitely be expelled (even if it is not necessarily for his personal good, since “The benefit of the many outweighs the benefit of the individual” (Igros, Vol. 11, p. 225. Vol.… Read more »

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