Wednesday, 3 Heshvan, 5781
  |  October 21, 2020


What’s Kosher at Starbucks (2)

After publicizing Chicago's cRc rabbonim's opinion on kashrus at Starbucks, COLlive asked Rabbi Chaim Fogelman of the OK Labs how Lubavitchers should buy their coffee. Full Story

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StarBucks cafe......YEP YEP YEP..............
March 7, 2011 4:30 pm

I’m not too sure i understand completely why the jewish people would even dare to think that such a good establishment like StarBucks–coffee house would dare not to do everything with the consumers “health” in-mind…Give me a break!! (I love their frapuccinos)……….

Please don't call Lubavs MO
March 6, 2011 9:39 pm

I find it insulting to call Lubavitcher Chassidim “Modern Orthodox”!! Those name callers do not appreciate that MO follow many kulahs but strictly adhere to halacha. They do not eat bugs in leafy vegetables or broccolli / califlower! MO have standards of halacha. Please do not insult me!

to 36
March 4, 2011 5:21 pm

are you comparing us to modern orthodox??? it is very normal not to drink chalav akum!!! again, unless you compare to M.O
and yes!! we should be proud of ourselves, our ideals, and keep them!!!

it's not like it's even good, what's the problem?
March 3, 2011 10:41 pm

seriously people, there are alot of great cafes all around nyc that don’t serve meat sandwiches and sell way better coffee. starbucks roasts in such large batches that they as a policy are not precise and err towards overroasting , making for a totally unnuanced coffee but still charge specialty prices. if you keep cholov yosroel it’s not like you can order a steamed drink anyway so save yourself some cash and get a better cup of coffee from the corner store (or dunkin donuts, they make a mean coffee, would you walk in there? i would!)

question?! comment!
March 3, 2011 7:43 pm

ok so i just say DONT DRINK THERE!!! #38 has a good idea! now i am wondering what about coffee bean and tea leaf???? i know you guys dont have it in ch but does anyone happen to know???

to 38:
March 3, 2011 7:13 pm

its NEVER gonna happen… it would become a hangout, lose all its money, and eventually close down. no normal girl/boy would want to go into a store which is a big mob of genders colliding into each other (even if it is Starbucks)…

looking for a job?
March 3, 2011 3:58 pm

This article just made me way more confused!one person says it’s treif another says its kosher, the only possible solution seems to open a kosher chain in ch!someone get in touch with starbucks and see if its possible!

responding to #35
March 3, 2011 6:22 am

maris Eiyin is in the eyes of the beholder. Even today, most people, both Jewish and Lehavdil not, associate Starbucks with coffee. For this reason, it is permissable to enter many other establishments that serve treif, such as a supermarket, a bowling alley etc.

to # 4
March 2, 2011 10:40 pm

Be proud of ur own ppl!!
Non lubavitchers r very quick to have cholov akum!!
Its a chabad thing to be extra particular with cholov yisroel!!
Proud 2 be a Lubavitcher!!!!!

former barista....i drink there but should you?
March 2, 2011 10:07 pm

i think the issue is the confusion (which is understandable from these articles.) i worked as a barista and i feel comfortable in my knowledge of the procedures including cleaning “in theory” and what is actually done, and i can tell you that this follow-up is really lacking. point is, if you are unsure, which most people SHOULD be now, you should maybe reconsider getting coffee there (yes, brewed coffee can be made treif now at starbucks due to cleaning issues.) but besides that, what happened to maris ayin? i think most people here would never walk into a treif… Read more »

To 31, 4
March 2, 2011 8:40 pm

Thumbs up!!!

To 31
March 2, 2011 7:40 pm

The super-market sells entire pigs (while alive! Okay, just kidding, but it’s possible). But they also sell Kedem grape juice…. It might not be a slippery slope, but it can be a slippery isle and next thing you know, you’ll be swimming with the treife fishes! R”L!

March 2, 2011 7:37 pm

I don’t understand. Here you have a rav hamachshir supply the svoros and a psak. And along you come… with your eigene svoros… and start providing “soft arguments” (es past nisht, etc.) for a halachik question. The Rebbe was very much against people who did these things (see the Rebbe’s comments about people who made problems about benedictine). If you don’t want to go to Starbucks, it’s your prerogative. But don’t confuse your own religion (I won’t call your views chumros, as they aren’t grounded in halacha, which would make you machmir in halacha) but go something like this: “Why… Read more »

March 2, 2011 6:36 pm

dont you see what a risk you are taking with ur kashrus just to have ur starbucks coffee? why bother.. next you know youll order coffee at mcdonalds chas veshalom. start bucks started selling ham sandwiches there is real trief on their counters in the sinks they use. lubavitchers go above the letter of the law- so why here are people finding the slightest allowance to drink there?!

to #4
March 2, 2011 5:59 pm

i have seen plenty of other chassidim in starbucks and even seen them ordering drinks with regular milk.

Sholom Doverber
March 2, 2011 4:26 pm

I have seen charedim in much worse places than Starbucks; with the peyos swinging.
lets not be so quick to denigrate our own.

Former Barista
March 2, 2011 3:13 pm

To #4
I have personally served black coffee in a paper cup to Belz, Satmar, Vizjnitz and other Poilsher/Hungarian Chassidim. (I worked about one block from Bloomingdales) They were very happy to hear me greet them in yiddish. (BTW they also accepted soy in the container, once they checked the hechsher on the packaging.)

March 2, 2011 3:13 pm

I have been to many Starbucks locations in both the US and Canada, and have only once been offered Soy-milk that is not the same usual one which has a Minnesota Kosher symbol on it (I believe it is rabbi zeilingolds Hashgacha), that time the Starbucks location in question was out of the company provided one that is Kosher.
I always have the employee show me the carton, but to me cold Soy-milk is one of starbucks’s strong points as it has always beenthe same brand and Hashgacha.

To #'s 19,20,22
March 2, 2011 1:55 pm

First off two wrongs don’t make it right. 2nd, if you’re looking for heterim to go Starbucks or anywhere else for that matter, the yetzer hora can and will supply with an entire list of heterim.

Cholov stam?
March 2, 2011 1:03 pm

Cholov akum!

I'm Not a Rov
March 2, 2011 12:37 pm

I had the pleasure of sitting together with a Rov on a flight. I mentioned that I won’t have a coffee because I noticed the flight attendant pouring milk into the cup before the coffee. He smiled and gave approval to my svoro, then casually asked the flight attendant for a coffee! To those who can’t understand why a Lubavitcher would go in to Starbucks I say… Enjoy Crown Heights. You’d be pleased to hear that the largest percentage of Chabad no longer live in neighbourhoods with Kosher coffee shops. Rabbi Fogelman: Why would you have a problem with a… Read more »

March 2, 2011 12:24 pm

I never drink starbuck coffee because you could never be 100%sure. Please answer about drinking a coffee or a tea on an airplane because that’s when I get desperate.

to #19
March 2, 2011 11:54 am

you are so right!

March 2, 2011 11:41 am

I am afraid this all part of the same malaise that we are suffering from in Lubavitch.

Not only regarding Starbucks, but tznius and many other halachos that one would assume “Chassidm” and for sure Chbad Chassidim should be careful with. Slowly but surely many in Chabad are moving towards Modern Orthodoxy and are forgetting the ideals of Chassidus, which are much more than just wanting Moshiach. What is happeing with our view of Halacha?

Why would any Lubavitcher want to go into Stardbucks? This is just another step on a slippery slope.

star fan
March 2, 2011 11:12 am

Hey #4
youve never been to manhatten.check out the javits center
and starbucks on39/8 , 45/brodway ,penn plazz etc.

to #4
March 2, 2011 10:54 am

you say
“No Belz, Satmar, Vizjnitz or any other Poilsher/Hungarian Chassidim would even enter a Starbuck’s establishment never mind buying a coffee there. ”
let me tell you that living in montreal and driving to NY very often you do see “all of these Chassidim” buying and using their establishments and in some cases their ingredients.

so don’t judge so quickly

to #8
March 2, 2011 10:40 am

??? unresearched??? the last artilcle was from the CRC who are very reliable. Meanwhile who are you?

Doesn't help
March 2, 2011 10:40 am

The original article was from a halachic investigation of starbucks and their practices. The cRc also knows about nosen taam lifgam. This article presents general ideas in halacha which would require each individual to investigate the details of each situation. The point of a hechsher is that you trust THEIR investigation, otherwise there is no point to the whole industry. In conclusion you should follow the original articles findings and NOT drink brewed coffee at a Starbucks which serves food.

This article does not address the issues raised in the previous CRC article
March 2, 2011 10:13 am

According to the CRC article, the equipment used to make the hot meat sandwiches are washed together with the coffee/latte equipment and its questionable if this is done in a dishwasher or in a sink that is Yad Soledes before soap was added. This article does not address this issue and the question still remains how can someone who keeps kosher drink Starbucks. How much more does this apply to all lubavithcher yungeleit that learned smicha?
See the link for complete CRC discussion,

Frappé w out treif base?
March 2, 2011 10:13 am

Can u grt frapucinno without the base (treif) meanin you are are drinking coffee blended w soy milk and ice?

Former Coffeeshop employee
March 2, 2011 8:44 am

If the store’s espresso machine uses a portafilter (like this one http://www.espressoparts.com/W10814?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&cvsfa=2097&cvsfe=2&cvsfhu=573130383134) it is likely washed with other dishes, either in the sink or dishwasher machine.

Also, Rabbi Fogelman makes no mention of the meat sandwich equipment issue…

still confusing
March 2, 2011 8:38 am

I think this article is much worse than the last, it’s misleading as it doesn’t give details of Starbucks’ actual practices. At least the last article was specific with the chart. You should have a Chabad Kashrus Rabbi go to Starbucks, see how it runs in a real store and in a kiosk-type store, and then have them tell us how to order appropriately in each situation.

Chaim - What about on an Airline coffee
March 2, 2011 8:37 am

Please explain if Flying on an Airline , can one drink a black coffee or Tea in the cabin .?
anyone who knows the answer please clearify

Maris Ayin!
March 2, 2011 8:30 am

Think about it!

Clarification still Needed!
March 2, 2011 7:17 am

The following is a quote from the CRC article. They recommened only going to airport-like Starbucks because they don’t wash any Treifos at those specific locations. The clarification that this post came to clear up was that CRC avoided the issue of Chalav Stam, which is treated in Halacha in the same manner as Triefos. “The standard daily clean up at Starbucks includes a hot wash of all utensils and some parts of that washing are done without soap. (Emphasis added) This clean up process significantly challenges the kosher status of the otherwise kosher products and each product must be… Read more »

to #8
March 2, 2011 1:29 am

apparently you know better than CRC and the OK?

you forgot to ask…most starbucks now serve meat sandwiches–including ham–which is used in the same dishwasher, which technically would make the entire thing unusable whether or not parve/dairy stuff is going in at whatever temperature……so you have to check for that too!!

March 2, 2011 12:24 am

lattes are fine they are made in a machine only used for the actual espresso
as to the milk they seperate the soy from regular milk and because of the issue of the same steamer

i actually tested the steamer and it reaches 215 degrees farenheit so it actually kashers itself so cold is definitly no problem as long as you dont get the caramel sauce (its dairy) and also hot

i was extremly upset at the last article it was completly unresearched and stupid

March 2, 2011 12:22 am

“Q: In conclusion, would you say Starbucks should be avoided since it has no kashrus supervision?
A: Yes, but for a different reason: you can get a coffee elsewhere for a dollar as opposed to a latte… yiddishe gelt… ”
Or until Starbucks gets the OK hechsher.

March 2, 2011 12:01 am

I;m sure that even now people will still be confused..

March 1, 2011 11:48 pm
March 1, 2011 11:41 pm

No Belz, Satmar, Vizjnitz or any other Poilsher/Hungarian Chassidim would even enter a Starbuck’s establishment never mind buying a coffee there.
We here in CH, are more ‘maikel’ about these issues, sad to say.

Americano or Coffee?
March 1, 2011 11:37 pm

In last article it mentioned americanos are better than regular coffee out of the fear that maybe the coffee basket thing is washed in the dishwasher.

The question is whether or not there is a problem using the espresso/americano when the very machine also has a frother which is used for Chalov Akum.

Do you say that the entire machine gets heated from the frother and it is therefore a problem or is it ok?

sense of humor
March 1, 2011 11:29 pm

I always like your sense of humor like the last answer!

yes or no
March 1, 2011 11:08 pm

can you write a list of drinks with a yes or no ..iced soy latte???