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Monday, 23 Tevet, 5780
  |  January 20, 2020

What I Wish She Knew

Op-Ed: "While Shidduch dating, there was one scenario that would often repeat itself, one that would add much unnecessary stress to an already stressful endeavor." Full Story

Video: Yud Daled Kislev Farbrengen

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Beautifully written
Guest
Beautifully written

Thank you for shedding light where some may not have noticed the lack before which can and I’m sure will make dating a more pleasant experience, ultimately for both.

Ylg
Guest
Ylg

Well said

About time!!
Guest
About time!!

I’m so glad this is being brought up, it’s about time that girls finally show some sort of investment.
All they have to do is look pretty and show up, not the case no more!
It’s time to get their act together!

While I generally agree...
Guest
While I generally agree...

Once I started dating shadchanim quickly told me it was a boys market. I spent hundreds of dollars flying in to CH , taking off of work etc.
so , I agree that in general boys invest more , however things are changing and now girls have to travel to bochurim a lot more

And you
Guest
And you

Are obviously feeling quite resentful. Don’t put that on girls you date.

Thank you for sharing!
Guest
Thank you for sharing!

To the point and helpful point of view

Parents
Guest
Parents

Parents should pay for their childrens’ dating expenses, period. Per our tradition, It is the responsibility of parents to marry off their children. I understand that there are exceptions, such as when parents are living in abject poverty or when their child is already older in their 30’s, but in the majority of cases the parents should pay. This applies EVEN if the child is working and making more money than the parents. It is still the PARENTS expense to bear. Also, to the author: in certain circumstances, one need not actively seek out a minyan or mikvah. You should… Read more »

child working
Guest
child working

if the child is working, and can suport humself, for what reason the parents have to pay his or her expenses for dating etc.
the parents are not slaves for the rest of ther lives to the children.
if the child cant confront this cost, defently the parents will help with a smile and jow,
but to say it is a obligation to mony to a rich child that has all he needs and more. that is nonsence.

Parents still have other kids to support
Guest
Parents still have other kids to support

If a bachur is working and earns as much or more than the parents, that money isn’t going to tuition, clothes, food and rent for another 10+ kids. Why shouldn’t a bachur spare his parents one more burden on their shoulders?

Entitled
Guest
Entitled

I can’t see how parent would want any of those guys, who feel they are entitled to date their daughter.
Next you would expect to them to pay for your living expenses, your 10 years in post secondary education.
They can’t buy you work ethic.
Needs to be earned

100%
Guest
100%

We learn this from Avrohom Avinu. He still had to take a vested interest and found Yitzchak a wife etc. I remember learning this lesson in school that no matter how old the child is, the parent’s are still responsible and should take a vested interest and financial responsibility in their lives.

Well put
Guest
Well put

Wow!! So true…

Kol hakavod!!!
Guest
Kol hakavod!!!

Thank you for someone speaking up… This is great advice that should have been posted ages ago. Buchorim do in fact have some challenges in shidduchim when it comes to arranging dates and always have to be the one flying in and it’s about time someone recognized that.

Kol hakavod
Guest
Kol hakavod

This is a wonderful article. Positive and very sensible. Your points are meaningful and give practical suggestions to ease the process and Tempe some of the wear and tear of shleping.

One point is that this will also help with the shidduch itself, since a bochur will be in a better headspace and more fit for meeting. Ie. He will be well rested and cared for. Ali vhatzlichi

About time!!
Guest
About time!!

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I will no longer allow my sons to travel. Let the girls side contribute & be invested. Each date cost the boys parents a small fortune if you add in travel expenses, eating out, car rentals for duration of stay it’s crazy. This while the girls side invests nothing. Your suggestions would at least show appreciation & menchlichkeit & even if the shidduch didn’t work the boy would definitely remember & perhaps pass the suggestion on. With regard to “must do 2nd date” this is common without travel. Please girls if… Read more »

Do that
Guest
Do that

Don’t allow your boys to travel. But you’ll be uselessly missing out on opportunities instead of simply asking the shadchan to get info and support from the girls parents. Opting out is not responsible.

Thanks for the op-ed!
Guest
Thanks for the op-ed!

Unfortunately, this website has seen a major drought of op-eds in recent times, and it has negatively affected my downtime by taking away one of my favorite pastimes to occupy myself with on the couch while I waste time. This article is a step in the right direction!! Kudos, and may you have a long, fruitful career, with many interesting and controversial op-eds to come!

Dude!
Guest
Dude!

That isn’t nice at all. People are trying to bring issues that are important to the forefront. Be nice

Frustrated with Hashem
Guest
Frustrated with Hashem

As an older, and exhausted dater, male, I would say I am frustrated in general, which perhaps can be translated to be frustrated with Hashem, not the women

All so true
Guest
All so true

You make many valid points…. As the mother of girls in this situation, I can honestly say I have done all I can to facilitate “Out of Town” dates- offered to pay for flights/arrange a place to stay/ let the boy know we are available for anything he might need while in our city. However, it was not met with gratitude…Ii was told it is a “slap in the face” to offer to pay for tickets & so unconventional that it scares them off! So while the menchliih thing to do is to treat the boy like a guest, they… Read more »

to All so true.
Guest
to All so true.

“However, it was not met with gratitude…Ii was told it is a “slap in the face” to offer to pay for tickets & so unconventional that it scares them off” Sorry, you were treated that way, I personally don’t think that way and would be happy if anyone did that when I was going out. I’d probably thank you for all those who didn’t lol. I wish everyone was like you.

Single guy: Thank you
Guest
Single guy: Thank you

This is so true. Thank you for writing this op-ed. There is an assumption, when it comes to travelling to Crown Heights or NY in general, that there is where to stay. It’s true, a 770 bench is always possible, but for those of us that have a high maintenance need, it isn’t so simple.

Skype
Guest
Skype

Skype or FaceTime aka video chat before traveling and meeting in person. This will save the headaches.

Same for girls.
Guest
Same for girls.

Points well taken.
You failed to mention that a lot of girls fly from out of town to New York for a shidduch. They deserve the same consideration and mentchlichkeit.

A story of a bad date
Guest
A story of a bad date

A Bochur was flying in from the east coast. That night they went on a date. My daughter came back from the date and firmly stated that this Bochur was no way for her. The frumkite wasn’t a fit , nothing was a fit. What was I going to do with a Bochur ,whos flight back wasn’t until tomorrow night ? The next morning, I woke up my daughter and begged her to take him to an a event of his interest. She did. This date was different. They continued dating. They married. That was over 12 years ago. There… Read more »

Dunoo if this is the place
Guest
Dunoo if this is the place

But you did put it out there, so I’m left wondering: How did that “The frumkite wasn’t a fit , nothing was a fit” turn out to be otherwise?

And while your story seems to have had a happy ending, or rather beginning, and hopefully will end in 100 years happily, there’s still logic to that if nothing clicks at all, to consider the one date useful and informative, and each to move on elsewhere.

First impressions
Guest
First impressions

Often first impressions are deceiving. Especially when someone’s flying the real personality doesn’t always show

GIRLS TOO!!
Guest
GIRLS TOO!!

This couldnt be more accurate for girls too. Because as far as i know, and hear from my friends, its most of the times the girls flying. All of the mentioned above happens to girls too. Who have to leave their jobs, homes, etc. to meet a bochur abroad.

Skype date
Guest
Skype date

It’s so much better to Skype date before getting on a plane.

That's the problem
Guest
That's the problem

If you are expecting recognition/positive feedback… You should not get married or you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

Umm the girl fly in.
Guest
Umm the girl fly in.

In most situations the girls fly in to CH. They are told no boys will fly elsewhere when there’s so many girls in CH. You want to date.. so come to CH.
Missing work, losing time, energy and sanity and staying at friends/families or strangers – it’s definitely a big deal for the girls and remember to be as mentchlicht and split tickets etc for them too

Single Buchor!
Guest
Single Buchor!

First and foremost, I think most Singles going through shidduchim should consider moving to CH for this purpose, but that being said I know so many buchorim who moved to CH so they do not have to keep flying back and forth and yet they still have to fly out when they date girls who aren’t from CH. I do not think there is a single girl who lived in CH who was forced to fly out to date a buchor (I could be wrong). I do not know what you may have experienced. But I can tell you from… Read more »

An excellent much needed article!
Guest
An excellent much needed article!

It is also important to know that the Bochur has probably flown out at time in order to miss the least amount of work. He may arrive very early in the morning to a place he had never stayed before and has to search for food. His date is usually the night he arrives! He may arrive to the date tired, possibly hungry and just not himself.

Please be very sure of your interest in dating this boy ‘before he goes to so much effort and expense.

Imho
Guest
Imho

Making a Bochur or girl have to
Travel to
Go on a date is just lowering your chance of a better shidduch. Parents should encourage their children to
Go to NY. If the boy is working in Chicago. Well just be sure to know your putting your job before your Life. Your shidduch is the most important thing in your life.

Sure.
Guest
Sure.

You try sitting in ch for years away from family and your own home, in a dingy dark expensive basement with nobody who cares about you and no shabbos meals to go to just so you can eventually get married more easily because after all, you’re in ch

To “sure”
Guest
To “sure”

BEST COMMENT.

Correct, agreed.
Guest
Correct, agreed.

Such an important subject!

Can I add
Guest
Can I add

…if the bochur is coming in to the girls hometown, please help him out also in the ‘where to go out to on the date’. It’s just another stress added on to this list….she can help with that

Stop going out of town
Guest
Stop going out of town

These are the reasons I stopped flying out of town for dates. I moved to CH (didn’t live overly far before) so I could date easier. I still went out of town or paid for the lady to fly here….never worked out well for many of the reasons above. So my mashpia said no more of it.

Don't agree
Guest
Don't agree

What is with this generation where girls have to fly to the boys. No boys want to fly out anymore. They dont even offer to pay for the flight. A man should act like a man. Own up to his responsibilities. Yes they can share airfare expenses but the man needs to go to the girl.
The girls shouldn’t be the ones chasing the men.

shouldn't?
Guest
shouldn't?

some things in fact are determined by zeitgeist, even within the torah box. and not all practices fit for all people. so it depends. if the girl presents herself as modern, independent, opinionated, equal-righted, fashion-edged… perhaps along with that comes an equalized dynamic of whoever wants someone strongly enough chases, gender neutralized. no one “should” do anything. And the laws of a nature will have it that values in sync will create matches. if you want your effort of travel to be seen as something to be compensated, and they don’t, you’ll resent it and perhaps things won’t work out.… Read more »

Sensible, and
Guest
Sensible, and

but there’s also an equally logical perspective that someone who is prepared to get married is sufficiently self-sufficient to plan whatever is necessary on a trip, as with any other trip. Do your due diligence in preparation. Why is anyone else’s to “host”? Perhaps, if there develops something serious and potentially matrimonial, could then the local family consider the visitor a guest. At the first shot though, both are very independent parties… I’m not negating any benevolence or hospitality the local family might extend, but this post sounds to me like it should be a responsibility. Or maybe I’m just… Read more »

Buchor
Guest
Buchor

You are correct it’s a responsibility. But that does not mean that the girls family cannot help in the process or at the very least show appreciation.

At the first shot though, both are very independen
Guest
At the first shot though, both are very independen

So why should the bachelor bother to see the other independent party….?
Obviously there’s the understanding of the need to make the other party FEEL (dating is not a cold process) cared for, regardless if the independent parties decide to go forward with the Shidduch (and it applies vice versa as well).

A J
Guest
A J

Amazing article!!! I’m married for 9 years already bH but had gone out many times with many girls before that. I cannot stress enough the first three points of the article! Thank you so much!

Ask for what you need
Guest
Ask for what you need

A person can always get annoyed that another is not doing what they want. Here’s a peice of advice to the author: Ask for what you need. If you’re visiting a new city for a date and want to know info on minyanim and mikvah locations…… ask!!!
You can live your life expecting everyone to read your thoughts and getting annoyed when they dont or you can simply ask for what you need and leave all the negative emotions out of it. Hatzlacha!

Take achrayus
Guest
Take achrayus

Nothing is every going to happen to you if you spend your time waiting for it. You gotta get out there and do it yourself. Even if it is a bother. Otherwise you will just be waiting forever.

Nicely written
Guest
Nicely written

Beautiful article!!

A father of only daughters
Guest
A father of only daughters

Great article but I think it is the boys responsibility to speak up! Either to the shadchen or to the girls family. Not always do you want to get involved in hos situations you need to speak up.

Well
Guest
Well

Everyone should just meet in NY. If the boy/girl is there, that’s where the other party should go.

I disagree
Guest
I disagree

Asking the parents of the person your going out to help pay for stuff is completely wrong. It shows a lack of responsibility and it shows how incapable the Bochur is. How does he plan on supporting his wife or even a family. Just gonna ask her tatty all the time to help him out?

You obviously are not a buchor or a parent of one.
Guest
You obviously are not a buchor or a parent of one.

There are many responsible buchorim who were forced to fly out ( missing work = losing money) to date your daughter which is has a hefty price tag.

Why is it crazy that when a buchor loses a thousand dollars for taking a week off work and then spends an extra $1000 to fly out and date ( flights, Uber to airport, car rental, food etc.) That it’s unreasonable to help him out. If that’s your conclusion you clearly never went through the process.

I’ve been around
Guest
I’ve been around

If the Bochur is making $1000 a week he could definitely afford a flight + car rental or uber. There’s no excuse for him to ask the girls father for compensation to come date his daughter.
The girl deserves a man a Bochur who can look after himself. This shows a lack of respect for the girls parents and a lack of masculinity for the bochur

I have also been around
Guest
I have also been around

First of all the 1k was an example… Most guys make less which makes my point even stronger. And you are also assuming that guys only go out once which is not the case. Some buchorim have to go out many times till they meet the one. Overall, between missing work and expenses of traveling and dating, the process can cost buchorim thousands of dollars. Point two: no one is asking anyone for money. The suggestion is purely that if parents of a girl would like to go out of their way to help a buchor and make his experience… Read more »

Some bochurim are learning
Guest
Some bochurim are learning

Newsflash but many bochurim are learning. Not earning. The expenses fall on the boys parents.
This isn’t about being a man it’s about both sets of parents being equally invested in the process.

Parents
Guest
Parents

His parents should pay, and her parents make local arrangements. That’s how it was in the good old days…and no one complained.

Wonderful article
Guest
Wonderful article

Please write more because this can really smooth the process.
However , after years of coaching I have concluded that the MAIN THING IS TO BE ENAMOURED WITH MARRIAGE, N LOVE WITH MARRIAGE ( as Rabbi Friedman points out) and then we OVERCOME ALL DIFFICULTIES AND OBSTACLES . Think of how you learned to drive/ got a degree/ set up your business, got that job… you were so determined to succeed that you DID . You davenned for help and then did everything necessary!
Besoros Tovos

Girls traveling
Guest
Girls traveling

I agree girls who live OOT should be going to places like NY or LA but flying to OOT locations alone can be very dangerous especially is they are unfamiliar with their surroundings. This might be a reason why its not the norm for girls to do the traveling. This may be a dated view but facts have not changed, it is safer for a male to travel alone and they tend to be more used to that from Yeshiva than for girls. Having the girl’s family contribute to hotel expenses when a bochur is flying in would be a… Read more »

Make it work
Guest
Make it work

I once set up a guy who flew into OOT. He had such a bad attitude because the flight was expensive/ planning dates. He had a place to stay and what to eat. The host even bought him a nice outfit for the dates. Long story short after a week of dating he said he was not interested and complained over the fact that he felt that the girl did not put in enough effort, he wished she would have planned some dates as well. The girl was left heartbroken since she comes from an old fashioned BT conservative family… Read more »

Israeli
Guest
Israeli

I was about to say that this is the first time I’ve heard of this phenomenon of flying for dates, then remembered my own ‘shidduch’! My now husband (Israeli) saw me on facebook, sent some emails and after 2 months of correspondence hopped on a flight to Europe. Now soon celebrating 5 years of marriage, living in EY with 4 kids (not a typo BH!!). Hashem finds a way to bridge long distances!

Excellent
Guest
Excellent

Points taken!

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