By Avremi Gourarie
Tznius. The topic I wish to not talk about.
Narrator and film creator Morgan Freeman was once asked on a 60 Minutes interview: ‘How do we stop racism?’ He answered, without skipping a beat, ‘Stop talking about it’
Tznius. We must stop talking about it. I say this to our community leaders and educators. It’s easy to tell someone what NOT to do. It’s much harder to inspire and lead by example in the hope that observance goals will be achieved by osmosis.
It seems to me that the more the community and schools push this agenda, the more divided everyone seems to be. The ‘problem’ persists. We are not talking of the kids or adults who want to dress or behave modestly anyway—that’s preaching to the choir. But what about those who are choosing a different path? It is falling on deaf ears, I say.
It was said in the name of Albert Einstein: ‘The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.’ Yet some community leaders, principals, and teachers persist.
Writing article after article. Calling a kid into the principal’s office, giving them a dressing down (pardon the pun), and punishing them for their tznius missteps is not useful. The kid does not come away thinking ‘Wow, Morah is right, my connection to G-d cannot be complete if I wear red nail polish’. No, instead, you breed resentment and anger. The kid sees through you. And it actually encourages the student to double down and find ways to buck the system even more. Worse, in many cases, by reacting/responding in this way, it may exacerbate potential mental health challenges when there is already so much the youth have to struggle with. Self-esteem, self-doubt, body image. Their spirit is crushed. Depression is not far off. Criticizing and highlighting the negative is never a good thing. Positive behavior reinforcement and validation – good!
As for young adults – an article recently published on COLlive about tznius being the reason there is a shidduch crisis. Say what?! We fail that generation and then blame them?
Let me explain.
I am in awe of today’s younger generation, the most sensitive, most deep, and persistently curious and inquisitive. This is the generation we ought to celebrate and nurture, not harass and belittle. This is the generation that demands authentic spiritualism, sans platitudes and shallow demands. They are teaching us, the generation that came before them, not the other way around. This is the messianic generation that demands of us to jettison the rote mindset of old, not to fake what is not true to us, to be vulnerable with our halachic struggles as well as our emotional shortcomings. They demand and deserve real answers. ‘Cos I said so’ or ‘That’s what the Rebbe said’ does not cut it. It’s our duty to lift them, elevate them. If our sons and daughters are not frum, it’s because we are not frum.
So, how is this issue (if indeed it is an issue) solved? By not speaking about it at all.
By being an excellent role model, you teach by example. If you’re a teacher or a mother who is caring and kind, encouraging, sincere, loving, flexible, and you also happen to dress modestly, then guess what? The student/child is going to want to emulate you. They are going to want to be kind. They will want to be responsible and sincere. And without even realizing it, they will mimic the way you dress/behave simply because they will want to be just like you. They will want to replicate your values. Your Torah values. The same for fathers. We cannot correct our religious failings vicariously through our kids. It’s unfair to them, and it doesn’t work. We cannot demand more than we demand of ourselves. That ship has sailed. We can only inspire by example.
A little cross-reference. This is true about Yiddishkeit as it is about mental health. There’s an anecdote told of a tribe in the Amazon. A child gets sick. Instead of fixing the child, they thank the child. The message being that the child’s struggles shine attention on the issues that the core tribe must address. The tribe does the work, heals, improves, and the child follows in kind. The same can be applied here. Dai Lechakimah B’rimizah….
There is another way. A new paradigm is upon us.

Something I learned as a parent is that when you lecture,it sounds perfectly sensible to your ears and you wish it would resonate with your child but they dont hear it that way and they’ll do their own thing or even the opposite.
“Thats what the Rebbe said” should cut it.
The problem is – raising children who feel a connection to the Rebbe doesn’t come through lecturing, either. It also comes through watching good role models of Chasidim acting as Chasidim should. So just step up and truly be a Chosid, and kids will feel it’s relevant to them. Lecturing won’t do that.
Perhaps it should. My point is/was that it does not for many. We ought to recognize that and pivot.
AG
Just because you are a chassid, does not mean that your child is. And if that’s your attitude, then they probably won’t want to become one. If all you can do to justify anything is by appealing to authority, then they’ll just reject that authority.
Torah is knowledge, which must be understood.
You so deeply don’t understand this article that I hope you haven’t had children yet so you still have time to be misbonen on what Avremi is trying to say here. Really try to understand with an open mind, it will do wonders for your future children’s chinuch.
Another person another way
Your way or the authors way isn’t the only way.
BH we have the Rebbe’s guidance.
correct, but you dont even listen. so how do you want others
I wish it cut it. But for me and 98% of my school it judt doesn’t. We’re not blind believers. We need facts and proof. And I wish it would put my mind at ease just by hearing well the rebbe said… but it really doesn’t and actually starts leading to resentment. Im not only saying this about myself I’ve spoken to many people that feel the same.
start reading on page 30
https://chafetzchayim.org/wp-content/single/SeferGederOlam_2020-07-01_03-36-49/SeferGederOlam_2020-07-01_03-36-49.html
read it if you are married to a nontzinius girl. read it if you are considering marrying one. read it if you would date one.
This is not the Rebbes approach. Its not how a chassid should act or think.
If you’re posting here, tell us what it says and why you think it relevant. don’t give assignments
Finally a sensible person speaks!!!
How much depth…
If only the mashpieim had such
Core principals
Was there one jewish source in this entire article!? Sorry, this might be a nice article for a Modox crowd… not for a lubavitcher one.. “it just won’t cut it”…
There are things that don’t need a source (and perhaps can’t be written – black on white – in a source).
There was once in a question sent by a reader to the מערכת of the Hatomim article, asking what is the source for קבל את האמת ממי שאמרו, the answer they gave – in the followings article – the sentence itself demands no source…
There are things that don’t need a source (and perhaps can’t be written – black on white – in a source).
There was once in a question sent by a reader to the מערכת of the Hatomim article, asking what is the source for קבל את האמת ממי שאמרו, the answer they gave – in the followings article – the sentence itself demands no source…
Thanks for writing this point of view. Totally agree.
Something sensible
Much like in the story about racism, to stop tznius we must stop talking about it.
Great idea!
Do you mean to stop tznius or to stop UNTZNIUS?
It’s called sarcasm. It may be a complex subject to teach but throwing it under the rug isn’t the solution
The Rebbe spoken about Tznuis many times.
was the epitome of Tznius and a role model in every way, so it works. If a parent is really sensitive the the child’s struggle and is not rebuking to “control”, but reminding with love, explanation and care, they’ll probably have much better chance of succeeding.
This is good Chinuch! It’s much harder to step up and be a role model than to lecture! But it’s the only effective way to educate.
Thank you for this!!! OF COURSE we teach our sons and daughters what the shulchan aruch requires of us but can we stop the “tznius infractions” in schools?? Teach it and then LIVE it. The learning will follow and it will stick.
Only prob they don’t
“יש שמטעים את עצמם לאמר: בכדי לקרב את הנוער לתורה ומצוה, עלינו להרבות עליו בתהילות ותשבחות ולהזהר מדברי מוסר אזהרות ותביעות, אבל האמת כי נהפוך הוא. השומע מרגיש כי מדברים אליו בשפתי חלקות ודברי חנופה, ולא בדרך השקר זו יקרבו אותם לתורתנו תורת אמת ומצות ד’ אלקים אמת.
ימים יבואו ודור הצעיר יבוא בתביעה נפשיית אל כל מנהיגיו ובפרט אל מנהלי הישיבות וראשיהם, לאמר:
מפני מה לא הוכחתם אותנו על דרכנו.
מפני מה לא אמרתם לנו את האמת, אמתה של תורת אלקים חיים, במילואה…..
ומה נאמר ובמה נצטדק ביום ההוא?”
. אנו צריכים לדעת מה הרביים אמרו.תודה רבה שמדבר על זה
A letter of the Frierdiker Rebbe (printed in the beggining of Kuntres Eitz Hachyim page 5) There are those which fool themelves and say that in order to encourage the youth (in the ways of) torah and mitzvos, we have to prioritize Davening to hashem and refrain from rebuking, warning or demanding. The truth is on the contrary: the one on the listening end will feel like they are being sweet talked. This false way will not draw the youth close to our true torah, mitzvos and hashem. Days will come when the younger generation will come to all their… Read more »
very True
I gave this comment a ‘thumbs up’. I remember reading this. Its beautiful. But we must pause and with great care, consider how to transmit the ’emes’ this letter refers to. I posit that current methods are not only ineffectual, they serve the greater cause more harm than good. Perhaps we ought to remind ourselves and reflect as to how exactly the Rebbeim taught us. Not admonishment or out of anger, but Chinuch from a truly holy, kind perspective. Today we chastise, we shame, we punish the child for their mothers infractions!! (or we just punish the mother) Is this… Read more »
I agree that the message has to be given over correctly, and that shaming etc. is not helpful. If the method we are using isn’t working, we should for sure make a cheshbon nefesh and try to understand what we are doing wrong and how we can do it better. However, I don’t think “not talking about it” is the solution. I think there is a way we can talk about it, teach it, in a positive, encouraging way. Yes, we must lead by example, but that does not mean we should not discuss these topics, and there must be… Read more »
What else should we stop talking about?
Antisemitism? Keeping Shabbos? Chassidishkeit?
Beard? College?
if you don’t already have one. BH
What is a Bochur likes to learn and is frum but does not want to have a Beard would a mainstream Chabad yeshiva accept him?
you should grow a beard
Cause some ppl don’t like a beard your asking a question on a fact that someone does not like a beard.
Like it’s the number one focus of being jewish
Mechanchim should take more notes from Morgan Freeman, Albert Einstein and a tribe in the Amazon and less focus on what the Rebbe says. Brilliant 👏
Plus they can get distracted just looking up these people.If you need shock value, quote an authentic Litvisher Godol who was respected by our Nesiim.It will show that there is no escape from the truth.
Chazal said קבלו את האמת ממי שאמרה
The rebbe also never said what you and all,the judgemental yappers say
If you are mechanech with truth.
Then no words are needed.
If you talk to your kids with respect. They will respect you.
The tone of voice a parent uses towards a child, eventually becomes the child’s self talk. If he or her has a loving relationship.
Then usually the child won’t be looking and searching for attention. Validation etc.
There is a difference between having firm boundaries. And talking down to a child.
The rebbe never ever talked down or belittled.
See what the Rebbe said about how to instill Yiras Shomayim in our kids- the topic of this weeks My Story with Rabbi Stein from Detroit. Very similar if not exactly the point Rabbi Gourarie is making- about being an example.
“We are not talking of the kids or adults who want to dress or behave modestly anyway—that’s preaching to the choir.”
Why the assumption that these people would be tznius anyway? I am sure that many people are tznius because of the hadracha they received.
It could be negative motivation.
We need positive motivation.
And the older adults who don’t understand the huge struggles of our generation, and make it more difficult, are themselves in the darkest Galus (Exile).
It’s not like older generations never struggled. I would say that tznius was about the overall look and not about nit picked details.
If all the parents in Lubavitch will just pause.
Breathe. If you don’t understand the point of this article or you find yourself getting defensive- pause and think. Avremi has heard the personal stories of so many of our youth. He knows what he’s talking about. It’s time to listen. To love.
I was shamed about tznius by a celebrated mechanech who is literally 100 years old btw as were many other girls.
LOOK AT OUR MECHANCHOIS.
Most unfortunately are not examples
The women in charge of the girls education need to start behaving like menschin. they embarrass girls they shame them and then they wonder why they aren’t frum anymore. be for real.
what you wrote is not true, and I doubt that you would feel comfortable to promise that all the women in charge of education embarrass girls and shame them
What’s does Aguch say about this?
someone with common sense.
Totally agree . At the community leaders and teachers would be better role models we just want to emulate them. Stop preaching and start being a role model that youth want to emulate.
About time someone stands up as says this. Too many kids have been turned off or traumatized from the schools here imposing tzinuis like it’s a military law.
Hard truth ,but i really think this is where it stems from,so unfortunate. Maybe the tznius issue is all about changing the girls school system.
The author of this article Send it to someone with the same last name That runs a school in Crown Heights
I walk up and down the hallways, looking at the girls and commenting. . .
It’s the harderpath, and the results might take longer… And it’s worth it.
When we enjoy our way of life, our children will come to us with curiosity.
Men should NOT call out women who aren’t tznius. Let them consult with there rav and people who they feel comfortable with. This includes COLLIVE articles.
And no women should ever tell a man about men’s issues. And no adult should tell a child about child issues. No white person should ever tell a black person about black issues. No rich person should ever tell a poor person about poverty issues. Same with gender issues, who you marry issues, immigrants issues, you can only open your mouth if you share the exact life experience of the other person.
I couldn’t agree more.
Men, you dont know the struggle that girls go through. You may think you do but you dont. Even if you have 17 daughters at 8 sisters. You can’t understand it and you won’t.
Its also very humiliating as a girl to see these articles/talks or whatever against us. Im not concerned about the length of your beard simply because its not my business and im not a man so I dont anything about the topic let alone the struggle or whatever. So please dont talk about my tznius.
I can’t tell if the reason the people walking in this image are blurred because of tznius or the camera focus.
i hope it the latter.
From Hayom Yom 17 Elul: The Alter Rebbe himself was the regular Torah-reader. Once he was away from Lyozna on the Shabbat of parsha Tavo, and the Mitteler Rebbe, then not yet Bar Mitzva, heard the Torah-reading from another. His anguish at the curses in the tochacha (section of admonition) caused him so much heartache, that on Yom Kippur the Alter Rebbe doubted whether his son would be able to fast. When they asked the Mitteler Rebbe – “Don’t you hear this parsha every year?” – he replied, “When Father reads, one hears no curses.” We must always factor in… Read more »
I tuned into BRHS 12th grade parent zoom this week. One of the educators spent a good portion of time asking parents for help in supporting the schools tznius requirements and NOT BUYING OUR KIDS SNEAKERS, because they are no longer allowed as they are not tznius. I’m just shaking my head. This is what we worry about? Sneakers that were fine last year – suddenly they are not tznius? My daughter confirmed that her friend was called aside and told “you’re such a nice girl why wear such unrefined shoes” ( as opposed to the blundstones 😳- which are… Read more »
If they don’t want the girls wearing sneakers, enforce it as a dress code thing and worry about the fact that the uniform skirts don’t cover the knees because that’s actually a halachic problem unlike sneakers.
your kids sneakers in the first place.
Im not sure who this man is whether its a bochur trying to be funny or a dillusional mashpia/rabbi but the ones who should be addressing and giving advise on tznius should be us women and us ONLY. As a girl who enjoys wearing stylish clothing, this is a struggle for me and having to hear an unqualified GEVER talk about MY life is highly degrading.
Sweetie, maybe take two minutes to see who the author is, he did put his name on the article, unlike you bravely leaving an anonymous comment. You sound very frustrated, but a little respect and using a few more braincells could take you far in life.
I don’t think your parents should be allowing you access to the internet… that would be a good start
I half agree with you ,only because I feel as if the man writing the article is more understanding than half the woman writing tznius articles lol
If you read the article, you will see that he wasn’t talking about Tznius, and he wasn’t telling you anything about your dress.
and speaks with a lot of care and concern, having faced tragedy head on. google his name and you’ll hear his interviews etc. He’s also an accomplished musician.
His daughter was Yocheved
Yocheved. Obm
This isn’t a buchur. He is well respected man.
That’s exactly the point of the article..
That we shouldn’t talk about it.
AG actually knows whats going on because he actually cares.
He’s been saying this for years.
One day it will be mainstream and a non issue
I agree with some of the author’s points. In truth, the yeshivos have a lot of competition today. With phones, the internet, and social media proliferating, not to mention the allure of alcohol and drugs among other temptations, it is very challenging to be mechanech the next generation after gimmel tammuz. Personally, I believe chinuch needs to start with establishing a positive relationship or connection with the child. When the child knows you care about them, then your values are meaningful and when some guidance is necessary, it is more well received. Somehow, it has become customary to use a… Read more »
Perhaps the writer has a point,
We see that in the Hungarian communities (Like Kiryat Yoel, Williamsburg, etc) they are totally obsessed with “tzinus” Like the color of the socks of the ladies how long or short the ladies Shaitel could be,
They talk about this all the time non-stop.
Perhaps this causes them to actually have an issue with it and thus causing them to struggle with it!
why are they so tzniusdik? (of course there r exceptions, like the only ones chabad women know from social media………
so this doesn’t make sense to me…
Thank you
So real
Every article misses the actual problems by avoiding them. I will not elaborate but here they are: a) Gezhe or not Gezhe b) Rich family or working on it c) dating social hierarchy d) educated or not e) physical and emotional attraction (thank you social media) f) anything else is an extension, an offshoot, and/or a combination of the above And the community continues shooting itself on the foot by keeping the “systems” the way they are. The worst part is that every person thinks they’re right and deserving the best of the selection (each to their own “beauty in… Read more »
I’m every society in the entire worldyou have some people that are more into status than others, so meeting that BH it’s not what you’re into, just stay away from all of that. These plenty people BH that get married from many various backgrounds. Why would you anyways want someone that doesn’t want you. I’d personally rather stay away.
and we are not marrying YOU the mother. we are not marrying YOU the shadchan. we are marrying the man. it’s not the man that doesn’t want us, it’s the mother or the shadchan. the man wants us. and the man Will marry us.
This sort of comment always comes from people who are not careful with hilchos tznius and become super defensive. The people who value tznius and are makpid on the halachos never have an issue hearing more about tznius.
If hearing about tznius bothers you so much, its time for you to reflect. If you are perfectly confident that you are not doing part of the issue, hearing about tznius wont be an issue.
Breaches of tZnius are never just about tznius- they play out in all inyanei yiras shamayim
This sort of comment always comes from people who are not careful with hilchos tznius and become super defensive. The people who value tznius and are makpid on the halachos never have an issue hearing more about tznius.
If hearing about tznius bothers you so much, its time for you to reflect. If you are perfectly confident that you are not doing part of the issue, hearing about tznius wont be an issue.
Breaches of tZnius are never just about tznius- they play out in all inyanei yiras shamayim
Everyone has an area that is extra challenging for them, for some it might be Tznius. The question is how to BEST go about encouraging someone who is struggling in this (or any) area. Based on the Torah, it’s a combination of a few things, but should definitely be done with love and care. Also, people who are struggling still need to realize that while a student is in school, they do need to adhere to school rules. The school can’t allow people to do whatever they want. It would create mayhem. At the same, in certain things, the school… Read more »
Really enjoyed this piece, so on point and beautifully said
This article is so refreshing. I love the perspective of leading by example instead of constant criticism—it really hits home. It’s true that our kids and students need role models who inspire them, not lectures that push them away. Such an important and beautiful reminder.
Wow, this really resonated. So simple yet so true that constant pressure just creates pushback, while kindness and authenticity inspire naturally. Such an important message.
Parents have to stop blaming schools for everything
The best way to enforce something is that the parents should show by example and stop fighting the school policies
Because big kids see the parents fighting the schools it definitely makes it worse
Avremi, your perspective really makes me pause and rethink how I lead by example. Thank you for sharing this.
Every. Single. Word.
B”H
I just want to say in defense of Avremi that he knows exactly what he’s talking about. He lost his daughter when she was a teenager.
Trust me. He totally gets it. May he know of much reveal good be”H.
The reason most people complain about it, is that’s how their life is. they complain about everything , and its easier to blame someone else on hardships, than their selves
the best part of this article is the fact that the author has signed his name!! thats progress and makes the message so much relatable. thank you
It is not Tznius to talk openly about Tznius. Unless you are a Rebbe or extremely refined.
So if i want to be somewhat provocative in my dress and you comment negatively, the messaging is that instead of you seeing my attributes, all you can see and focus on, is my dress, so really your lacking and not a tzinua.
It reminds me in day-camp where the director kept pulling the curtain in shul as he didn’t want us to get the smallest peek. It said more about him…
Makes so much sense. Stop talking about it, and it will go away. Stop the shidduch crisis by stopping to talk about it. Stop the Off The Derech children by stopping to talk about it. I wonder why the Rebbe spoke so much about Mi Hu Yehudi – would it not have stopped if he stopped talking about it?
He means stop harping about it to the point where the kids ignore it or become so triggered by it that they can’t handle the topic. Kids have needs that have to be met and they resent it when everything is about one aspect of life.
How do we stop crime in the neighborhood? Stop talking about it.
Real men don’t blame — they lead. Tznius starts with you: take responsibility, show respect, and be the mentch your family and community deserve.
I was in top Chabad Yeshivas and was a strong learner in Talmud but never wanted a beard or to lean chasidus or farbrang or liked the lubavitch negonium, and the obsession and books about beards felt very off putting.
u dont have to like to farbrang or negonim. but chabad isn’t the only one with beards. Chofetz Chaim wrote entire essays on why jews should grow a beard. you don’t have to be chabad.
I am referring to most yeshivsh Mir, Lakewood, Chaim Berlin etc no on has beards
As with everything, you need a balance of having people be a dugma Chaya and alsoteaching it. As one of the people in this generation that you are talking about, I actually DO want to learn about Tznius, obviously in a proper caring way, and I don’t want to learn about it just from having role models.
Plus
It’s always easy for people to comment and talk, but it’s a whole different story when you’re the one with the responsibility of running a moisad or being a teacher or Rebbi or counselor….
Is for women
And for men
And probably not the best thing for a man to be writing an article on Tznius for women.
The article is not about Tznius.
It about not talking about it.
Sorry that many here can’t understand this.
I only remember being told in תומכי תמימים about the type of לבושים in the third perek of תניא, which are מחשבה דבור מעשה, and in this type of clothing – real clothing – the people who are the focus of this discussion are TOPNOTCH!
I think tznius is about pride.
Just because the secular worlds standard of beauty is the external doesnt mean we need to take them seriously. they’re nuts. Let them fly a kite. We have the dignity and depth to know that inside is what counts most. And we like to get people’s focus on who we actually are and not our superficials.
who don’t even follow the basic tzinius halacha, you better either start, or quit your position of leadership. unacceptable to be a fake role model.
Avremi is an exception as far as a man being able to give direction.
He lost a young daughter and is talking from the heart.
May he and his family together with all klal yisroel have a kesiva v’chasina tovah!
Finally! I’m married with kids and don’t dress tznius. I don’t struggle with anything else but that. It’s never crossed my mind to not keep Shabbos or eat non kosher. I’m strict about CY, I’m strict abt Jewish music, I’m not strict abt tznius. Just hearing the word makes me cringe. This article is so spot on, I’ve never had a will to break Shabbos bec Shabbos in my home was so positive and special. Kashrus was never spoken about, but tznius? Tznius was the devil. If I wasn’t tznius I wasn’t going to be happy, I wldnt get a… Read more »
There is only one solution to the tznius plague in our neighborhood: Enforce a dress code – have signs in shuls that require all those entering to follow the dress code. Have signs in all stores that customers can only enter if they follow the dress code. Have signs at all schools that parents arriving at school for pick up or drop off must follow the dress code. Heck, restaurants and many stores have signs that clearly state: Shirts and shoes are required. Why not post and enforce similar signs (covered elbows, knees, hair of married women) required to enter… Read more »
Not accepting another yid because they are not at your level maybe worse.
Its like kicking a not tznius child out of your home.
The rebbe was soooo against that!!!
Again, this article is all about living by example.
Most of tznius issues are rooted in someone that wasn’t accepted for who they were.
If you accept and love your children unconditionally.
Don’t belittle them, don’t be harsh etc.
You have way more chance that your kids will be tznius.
I haven’t even read the article yet, but as a single girl I feel so so grateful that there are older, married people who don’t singularly blame singles (specifically girls) for situations beyond their control!
I usually dont judge the article or writer, but rather by the amount of people responding. It intrigues me by how many are fascinated or troubled or interested in this matter – one way or another. so here are my thoughts. I have been through the entire Lubavitch system. I liked many things and stongly rejected many things. In particular, it was the image expected from me [us] but not genuinely conveyed with love or much consideration from those above us. e.g i had a beard. and as soon as it was trimmed ( for reasons i will not get… Read more »
Why did you trim you beard? According to the great Goan Rabbi Moshe Wiener it’s assur to trim or shave
I fully agree with this article! Speaking as a high school student, the more our teachers and parents talk about tznius, scold us, or “teach” us about it, the more we start to resent it. When we’re getting ready to leave the house and our parents say things like “fix your skirt” or “that dress is too see-through,” it actually pushes us to want to wear it more. When our principals stop us in the hallway with “close your buttons” or “change your skirt,” it doesn’t inspire us — it just makes us frustrated. Instead of associating tznius with dignity,… Read more »
Thank you, a wise perspective!