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Sunday, 13 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 16, 2019

    The Singles’ College Dilemma

    From the COLlive inbox: "What's the concern about going to college and why is it really frowned upon before a person is married?" Full Story

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    Yes!!!
    Guest
    Yes!!!

    So well said. Couldnt agree more. Even as a yeshiva bochur, make sure to have a good friend. Otherwise your left floating. Its easy to have a group of friends but a true single friend is one you need.

    Thank you!
    Guest
    Thank you!

    Thank you so much for explaing this so clearly. Especially thank you for explaining why its so hard for older singles

    Get married first!
    Guest
    Get married first!

    I was raised in a frum, shomer Shabbos home (not Chassidic) but I went off to college. I lived in a Jewish dorm, had Jewish friends & got my degree, got married, raised a family. But that was many years ago. My son wanted to go to college & he did…after he got Smicha, was married & had a family. We were very clear that he couldn’t go to college on our dime as a single young man. None of our other children went to college & all are successful in their own right. If I were 18 today &… Read more »

    How about
    Guest
    How about

    Attending a frum college where males and females have separate classes?

    Doing an online course where you don’t need to go into campus?

    Ok so...
    Guest
    Ok so...

    Do mivtzoim all day, every day. Dude. You gotta give people options. Either fix the yeshiva or let them cut a loss and move on.

    Wow
    Guest
    Wow

    Love this!
    Thank you!
    As chassidim we know that the Rebbe knows best!!! Whether we understand or not, he has our best interests at heart!

    Opinion
    Guest
    Opinion

    First of all, its not ONLY singles, who might become more leniant in their obsevances due to being single. There are plenty of MARRIED couples who are extremely lenient too. Marriage will not save u from all issues. 2nd- all this singles out there, maybe something should be done, so it shouldnt be SO HARD to find a match. Plenty of people today rely on the government for financial aid and stuff, and have struggles with money. It should not be like that!! Maybe if people went to college and got DECENT paying jobs, then they wouldn’t have all these… Read more »

    Thank you!
    Guest
    Thank you!

    Thank you Rabbi Shochet very well said.

    About the family thing...
    Guest
    About the family thing...

    What about if an unmarried student continues to live at home while attending a local college, or boards with family members out of town?

    Hmm
    Guest
    Hmm

    Your mivtzoyim idea is cute, until you get to the part where many employers today won’t even consider hiring someone – no matter their skills – if they don’t have a degree. I’m not saying that someone should or should not go to college, but if you’re going to try to offer a solution to a very real worry, at least make it plausible. Otherwise, the people you’re trying to convince aren’t going to take the rest of what you say seriously.

    Thank you!
    Guest
    Thank you!

    But what about online studies where there is no issue of bad environment?

    Question
    Guest
    Question

    What about the non business world? Medicine? Arts?

    Rabbi Braun no alternative
    Guest
    Rabbi Braun no alternative

    Rabbi Braum speaks with fire and brimstone agaisnt going to college however many people in crown heights are suffering financial peril and our children see this, with the hope it doesn’t happen to them. Rabbi Braun does not offer an alternative to this for our kids. When you have a kosher program that is, say, a men’s or women’s only Jewish program endorsed by Bais Yaakov or other kosher schools, you can’t deny this right to have a parnassa.

    Rabbi schochat
    Guest
    Rabbi schochat

    Thank you Rabbi for these insights.I respected your father I enormously and can hear him tell his story and bring out the same ideas and points. Thank you so very much.

    Letter
    Guest
    Letter

    There is a beautiful letter from the Rebbe to Rebbitzin Garelick from Italy when she was an unmarried girl who wanted to go to college. Everyone should read it.

    no education
    Guest
    no education

    No Education? So basically you’re saying that CHabad Chassidim should be in Kodesh or business people. Don’t let them add to fields of engineering, or dentistry, or medicine, etc… Some non-educated, doctrine followers.

    Very well written
    Guest
    Very well written

    Kol hakavod

    there is some truth here
    Guest
    there is some truth here

    It is definitely true that many older singles move away from observance. The connection to college is tenuous. It is hard being an older single. I know. I’m 32, and I could very much be the person in the article. I was saying chitas and listening to only Jewish music in my early 20s, and now I don’t keep shabbos or kosher. It happened slowly. And most of my single friends have also become much more lenient (even those who are still frum). The reality is, a huge part of frum life is family-oriented, and when you don’t have that,… Read more »

    Well said
    Guest
    Well said

    Thanks for saying the truth as it is. People will do as they please, but let it be clear where the Rebbe stands in this issue. Though it is definitely a real challenge to live this way, the Rebbe made ir clear that when we make choices according to hashems will, parnassa will come from Him as well, and more imporimportantly hashem bracha will. Doesnt mean a person will be wealthy. But theres alot more to life than money! I hope I will not have to choose, but inner joy and health, finding my spouse and healthy children ranks much… Read more »

    It seems so clear cut...
    Guest
    It seems so clear cut...

    If you are talking about attending a mixed college and living in a dorm.
    What about schools offering women only classes? Online?
    BH there are many more options nowadays.
    Well written but neglects the fact that in 2018, it is more than common for single Lubavitchers to get degrees- and 99% are not attending mixed classes.

    This is all nice and dandy
    Guest
    This is all nice and dandy

    If you personally plan on paying for these young couples over growing expenses. Until then, dont talk. Also, there are many college courses that teach sales force and public speaking. I understand if these young people have parents that plan on supporting them and putting down a down payment for a house for them. But, when you have a couple that’s trying to make ends meet because neither of them are getting paid like a professional sallery. The problem was that they didn’t have a plan before the got married….

    Agree with #18
    Guest
    Agree with #18

    It’s much harder being frum as an older single

    #18
    Guest
    #18

    Thank you for being so candid & sharing some raw facts without bashing. I wish you much success and happiness.

    Nice article
    Guest
    Nice article

    Becomes problematic when our own schools won’t hire us without a degree! What do we do then? It’s so difficult a challenge!

    Please write a part 2.  This is Insufficient
    Guest
    Please write a part 2. This is Insufficient

    So your strongest conclusion is that we all should and need to be in sales. What if sales is not the appropriate route for them? What if they don’t enjoy Mivtzoim? You started off strong, with real-life examples and real basis from the Rebbe. Where you veered is where the only approach is just to go on Mivtzoim…What if the single can’t and doesn’t enjoy learning full-time? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’d just like more solutions… I feel like you gave up at the end… Looking forward to a part two. Ideas… In your personal life, what did you… Read more »

    Give us a break with advice
    Guest
    Give us a break with advice

    Community has no helping hand infrastructure for young couples, so how u expect people to exist. It is good to give advice when people have backup parents and relatives and friends. What about those who come from overseas. Hashem will help all of us. It is not a question of degrees, nowadays schools all over here and all over do not give the same standard education as 20 years ago. Kids cannot read or count, they do not know basics, whether in Torah or counting… we need to first and foremost learn how to teach our own children in Lubavitch… Read more »

    If you want to know more
    Guest
    If you want to know more

    There is an amazing booklet out there explaining the Rebbe’s position on college as it relates to the new “Frum” options available today.
    I found it very enlightening. It’s available by emailing [email protected]
    If you actually want to understand and not just to vent and defend your choices – it’s a worthwhile read

    Misunderstanding...
    Guest
    Misunderstanding...

    He’s not saying “never get a degree” … but instead, focus on marriage first, then go to school. If you go to school before marriage, it’s easy to get caught up in non-kosher activities and besides, school takes up too much time and energy when you could be dating. Just focus like a laser beam on getting married. Don’t get distracted. Put down your phone and really focus on marriage. You might be surprised how quickly it happens for you and then you can look into kosher colleges or online programs, or regular college. That’s where a mashpia comes in.… Read more »

    #13
    Guest
    #13

    A degree does not promise you wealth.
    Yes, there are people with degrees that bh have money and they are many that I know that do not and there are many in the business world that are very well off without a degree.
    The main thing that we need to remember is that money is from Hashem and not from your degree or your work (yes, you still need to make a keli)
    May Hashem shower everyone with clarity, prosperity, and happiness.

    college degrees never guaranteed parnassah
    Guest
    college degrees never guaranteed parnassah

    I read this in the Reader’s digest!!
    Marriage grounds you religiously, spiritually and emotionally.
    When you are focused you can start a business/take a course in something practical, stud and work – there are many channels for the parnosso to come through.
    Going against the Rebbe isn’t one of them!

    the chanukah story
    Guest
    the chanukah story

    when we take a look at the Chanukah story as children we are told how the yidden didn’t serve avodah zara etc.
    there were many yidden joining their sports and their culture.
    so too, now we are in a very similar golus there is college blinding us in a very conflicting way.
    May Moshaich come now!

    the REAL issue is why people are staying single so long
    Guest
    the REAL issue is why people are staying single so long

    It’s mainly FEAR, and that has to be addressed after a year of two of dating. PLEASE talk to an experienced coach or therapist to find out what is sabotaging your process – it’s inside YOU, not out there. Fear of failure, of abandonment, of commitment, all these are impossible to deal with on your own and they very often don’t “go away”. please turn to someone to help you move on. THIS is the main point

    It’s a free country!
    Guest
    It’s a free country!

    If I want a degree there’s many ways to get as many as i like. If only most colage students actually don’t know an education from their own tail. Go get a degree online go to YU and don’t forfeit our birthright. So Yes we should all be zoche a real education with help from above.

    To #18
    Guest
    To #18

    I also became less frum in my 30s and eventually was no longer frum after being someone always at fabrengens with the rebbe It was as a result of being single and seeing no hope of marriage, and spending shabbat and yom tov alone. I also went to secular college where i met people who took me further away as i looked for friends But i came back to yiddishkeit fully as i hope you will too. I truly feel the rebbe brought me back thru dreams. I came to see the emptiness in a world without yiddishkeit as i… Read more »

    Also to #18 - what the rebbe said in yechidus
    Guest
    Also to #18 - what the rebbe said in yechidus

    I cant forget what the rebbe said to my friend who became a baalat tshuvah.

    The rebbe told her “you have found truth, beauty, and happiness in judaism”.

    This was at the womans convention when we went up individualy with letters to the rebbe and i went with her

    Wondering...
    Guest
    Wondering...

    A few ppl asked what about online classes?? Let’s not pretend that the need for internet for online classes doesn’t pose it’s own problems and issues

    Ummm
    Guest
    Ummm

    Success in business is all about sales? That’s the answer? Hashem gives people all types of talents, personalities etc. Not everyone is going to be a sales person, lol.

    Time to update
    Guest
    Time to update

    26 is spot on!

    also not everyone is cut out for “sales” remember not everybody went or was successful on mivtzoim! it is so naïve to hear older people regurgitating the same arguments from 20-50 years ago!

    Wake up
    Guest
    Wake up

    Denying people an education and the means to provide for theor families is a crime.

    Salary
    Guest
    Salary

    Isn’t it also possible that a single person with an
    Education and an income is a more attractive spouse. 2 incomes still isn’t enough to buy a house and raise a family in ch

    To #9
    Guest
    To #9

    My mother insisted that I go to college and told my seminary not to stop me. I lived at home and took tough science courses. When I would attend chabad house shabbos meals occassionally , it was very difficult due to the mixed nature of the events. And my father was very involved in the chabad house but at an impressionable age it is a real social pressure to be in a modern crowd where boys and girls are friendly with each other. I stayed above that but it was hard. Also, the curriculum and mindset is not always aligned… Read more »

    A graduate
    Guest
    A graduate

    So I have a question did rabbi Braun pay for my rent before I graduated from college and was making 15$ an hour!? No so. Don’t tell me nor to go to college and make 60 an hour thnaks..

    Issue of college
    Guest
    Issue of college

    By going to college you think that you need this degree to get more money and you’re not trusting that Hashem decides how much money you will get. This is a form of Avoda Zorah

    To #32
    Guest
    To #32

    A person can date for 2 plus years and,not find the right one. Does NOT mean there is something wrong with them. There is something wrong with our system,of dating! U know what its like to find the right guy or girl?!

    Sales isn't everything, but...
    Guest
    Sales isn't everything, but...

    Even if someone goes on to be in a serviced based career as an engineer, doctor, lawyer, architect, health care, etc. they will be faced with two scenarios: a) they will work for someone else b) they will start their own practice Both those scenarios require sales. If you work for someone else, you need to “sell yourself” to them why they should hire you. Then you need to constantly “sell yourself” as to why they should keep you or give you a pay increase etc. If you work for yourself, then you are constantly selling your services to potential… Read more »

    Online classes issue
    Guest
    Online classes issue

    Imagine if someone was offered to be able to do college classes in a total private scenario. All private one on one classes and no one else in your college. Only catch is, all the classes will take place in a brothel. Surely no one would think this is a good idea. The Internet is fraught with danger. Spending many hours a day on the Internet only increases that danger and is not necessarily a better option. It’s like the people that don’t walk under the awning of a movie theater (as per the directive of the Frierdikeh Rebbe) but… Read more »

    If you're curious...
    Guest
    If you're curious...

    Google “salaries for ( )” whatever job you can think of.

    Scroll down to where it says “qualifications”…

    Compare jobs that require a bachelor’s, master’s, or professional degree to something without. The differences in salary will shock you. You won’t even find jobs that don’t require at least a bachelor’s, unless you have family connections or 20 years of experience and an amazing reputation.

    Unless you go into teaching or shlichus, you need at least one degree/certification/license if you want to get a job that will pay tuitions and basic living expenses.

    College ideas
    Guest
    College ideas

    Whether online or not some of the required courses and reading are so unG-dly and to expose oneself to this is dangerous. Been there so I know.
    Yes being married and somewhat grounded helps but it does take a commitment to learn Torah for at least as many hours as you commit to college learning.
    In mixed campus classrooms-never!

    Delusion is also a tool of the y.h
    Guest
    Delusion is also a tool of the y.h

    Writing a self justifying article that grants permission for bochrim to continua to flounder because they have no way to make parnossa, does nothing for the shidduch crisis. It is also immensely dishonest and the yeitzer hora cloaked in chassidishe hergeiyshim. Attend school entirely on line, go to Jewish colleges etc. Most importantly stop lying to your son’s about what is takes to earn an honest steady living in the world we live in today. Be a chassidshe mentch and go to school, support your family bkedusha uvetahara

    new academy for post seminary girls in Crown Heights
    Guest
    new academy for post seminary girls in Crown Heights

    Michlelet Chana is the answer for continue adult education and certificate program for vocational training.
    michleletchana.org

    To #47
    Guest
    To #47

    I am pretty sure you get a BA from attending yeshiva. Both YOEC and Morristown are accredited.

    Viva collège
    Guest
    Viva collège

    Yes it’s important in our time with jewish college to encourage our kids to pursue college studies ! They need to face the challenges jobs of life called PARNASSA TO THEIR FAMILIES

    Shlichus
    Guest
    Shlichus

    Go on Shlichus!

    The Vicious Cycle
    Guest
    The Vicious Cycle

    Personally I would appreciate a response from the author on the following: 1. I live in a chabad community where the standard to maintain licensing for the Chabad School is very high. We like to call our preK which includes a kindergarten a community school but at this point 99% of the people are shomer shabbos/kashrus/tahara mishpacha, so it’s more of the Frum Jewish School. To maintain this high standard and licensing that gets the school grants from the government, lead teachers need a Masters in Early Childhood Education, Assistants bachelors or Associates. Guess how many of the teachers, educating… Read more »

    People struggle in crown heights....
    Guest
    People struggle in crown heights....

    Because Brooklyn became an extremely expensive place to live. Its nothing to do with college education or occupation. Its expensive point blank period. There are so many chabad communities in inexpensive suburban neighborhoods. FIVE TOWNS, POMONA is bursting! Monsey, buffalo, Pittsburg, North Miami and other neighborhoods in Florida. Look for another place. I’m an American girl, married to an Israeli, who went through the system, smicha and everything, we wanted to go on shlichus, but after kollel, we needed a parnossah, and he started what is today a successful busniss, barely knowing any English. No business classes, and forget college.… Read more »

    Simplistic
    Guest
    Simplistic

    Simplistic views put forward here. The key is to be well balaced spiritually and emotionally. Some learn this at home and sadly others are left alone and confused at a very young age. Schools can help but not everyone is reached in those crucial early years. Thirdly people are individuals and there are different types of learners. Mivtzoyim are a wonderful thing if one is adequately prepared. Many in this community spend hours on their phones and internet whether for business or friendship. It is not just about the college degree or the lack of it. A wholistic approach is… Read more »

    Options
    Guest
    Options

    I’m not interested in being a sales man that isn’t my strong suit it seems like all the yoongelit get married broke or live on mommy and tatty than finagle some gig lone sharking realestate brokerage I’d never plan on living that if I don’t have to ya mark zukerberg dropped out but don’t have kids if that’s ur plan it’s not fair to them ok maybe your wife will support your family just make sure to let her know before u date

    Vocational Training
    Guest
    Vocational Training

    Dear R Shochet – what about vocational training? Didn’t the rebbe try to establish yeshivos that would include vocational training in the curriculum?

    Hi I remember reading this story
    Guest
    Hi I remember reading this story

    I think it was in To know and to care….. And if I remember correctly the rebbe agrees for him to go to college after he got married. Which the author doesn’t mention….. the rebbe agreeing to him going to college

    my two cents; 3 points
    Guest
    my two cents; 3 points

    1) if you’re a girl after seminary and you go looking for a job say in Beis Rivkah Head Start, Mrs. Chaya Sara Tenembaum will ask you for a degree to teach. 2) Boys have so much energy, as a mother of four boys I’d love to see some change in the Yeshivos that part of the day is learning and part of the day they can learn to do something with their hands that they can later use as a Parnassa, (or even to learn how to do useful things around the house, that can also save tons of… Read more »

    To #59 and others
    Guest
    To #59 and others

    As mentioned, my father a”h started Teacher’s college (a one year course) when he was engaged, in order to get certified as a teacher and make a living. He only later went on to get a masters in religion and doctorate in philosophy, which he completed just before his 39th birthday. None of this was done with the encouragement or dissent of the Rebbe. I would only infer, that since my father was in constant contact with the Rebbe on various matters and the Rebbe surely knew that he was attending university (nor was the Rebbe ‘shy’ to tell my… Read more »

    Dear Sruli
    Guest
    Dear Sruli

    BH I read your article with interest. A few points: 1. “Meshane Haitim” is a painful subject. But please remember that Anash didn’t create the times, it is the system. When the system says: A) “We can’t take your children into school without xxxxx amount of $$$. We are sorry the Rebbe said otherwise, but times have changed.” B) “We would love to hire you as you are the right wo/man for the job, but you need a degree. We know that this wouldn’t fly in the old days, but you know, the times are different.” So the onus is… Read more »

    To #62
    Guest
    To #62

    Well said! Thank you.

    “Simply put, the Rebbe’s organizations have gone against the Rebbe’s wishes and this lead to the rest of Anash going against the Rebbe’s wishes. The system self-imploded.”

    Nishtane Hatim
    Guest
    Nishtane Hatim

    To #62 I’m glad to bring this up. I think it’s important to highlight that over the decades the Rebbe’s organizations have recognized that mishane haitim applied to many instances. Here’s a partial list: – teaching in yiddish. Most yeshivas now recognize that this might not be the best way to go. – shluchim being sent to areas that are not self sustainable and need to fund raise outside of their own kehilas. – changing the format of the siddur that was originally designed by the frirdiker Rebbe. There are many, many, many, more examples that are too painful to… Read more »

    Yaasher Koiach
    Guest
    Yaasher Koiach

    It was a great article. Your father would be very proud!
    Shea Hecht

    To #62
    Guest
    To #62

    All very valid points. 1) I think there is a difference between the natural change of the times (inflation, cost of living etc.) But along with that comes the faster pace of business and the increase in average salary. Then there is a general Torah concept (which the directive of a Rebbe is) which stays true throughout time. To change that, would require some serious challenges and some real proof. As for tuition, I can only speak about the schools I have dealt with. No Chabad school I have ever dealt with, turned a child away whose parents could truly… Read more »

    62 is right - socialism doesn't work...
    Guest
    62 is right - socialism doesn't work...

    Too many supported by too few, and the too few growing fewer and fewer. Socialism, taking from the rich to feed to poor. It doesn’t work. This has been proven. Look at Cuba. Multiplying masses depend on the “kindness” of the system to give them free tuition, free benefits, and free perks. It seems great at first. The givers are happy to give and everyone benefits. But it isn’t sustainable when the givers run out of money. And by the next generation, poverty takes over.

    To #62
    Guest
    To #62

    All very valid points. 1) I think there is a difference between the natural change of the times (inflation, cost of living etc.) But along with that comes the faster pace of business and the increase in average salary. Then there is a general Torah concept (which the directive of a Rebbe is) which stays true throughout time. To change that, would require some serious challenges and some real proof. As for tuition, I can only speak about the schools I have dealt with. No Chabad school I have ever dealt with, turned a child away whose parents could truly… Read more »

    Married in College
    Guest
    Married in College

    Mixed co-ed college is also dangerous for people who are married and do not have a grounded maturity, strong boundaries, and a stable loving marriage, marriages and people have been broken because of spouses going to college without the right intentions and grounding, and doing things that hurt the marriage and the children.

    To 69
    Guest
    To 69

    Such a scenario seems inevitable. I’m sorry but welcome to the real world where, if your not in school youre in the secular world doing business. The point is that a man who works is going to interact with other woman. You have to be mature enough to be married. On another point, I do like what he says in this article. Marriage is the priority and college should go after. This is the ideal situation and I do not think anyone can disagree with what he is saying. Most people in Chabad nowadays can afford to go to college… Read more »

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