ב"ה
Saturday, 17 Iyyar, 5784
  |  May 25, 2024

The Greatest Difference Between Then and Now

Op-ed by Rabbi Yossie Denburg: “I asked a classmate who has been involved in education for 4 decades, to identify the greatest difference between then and now. He had a single answer.” Full Story

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True...but...
March 14, 2024 11:18 pm

After 4 dacades and lots of bad teachers and bad expreince, we grew up and dont except what the teachers say blidly.

Perhaps you should have…
Reply to  True...but...
March 14, 2024 11:56 pm

I mean just look at your spelling. Perhaps if you would have paid more attention in class and listened to you teachers you may have been able to spell properly 🙂

I see
Reply to  Perhaps you should have…
March 15, 2024 1:35 am

Sure, deflect the responsibility of making sure every student spells well, on the student, not the teacher.

Hmmm
Reply to  I see
March 15, 2024 9:17 am

Not every failure you can blame on teachers and nor successes to parents.
However the lack of respect for teachers is definitely felt today.

Look at yourself!
Reply to  Perhaps you should have…
March 15, 2024 10:14 am

Coming from someone that didn’t bother proofreading their comment before posting 😂

Just a Person
Reply to  True...but...
March 15, 2024 9:54 am

Schools are better, teachers are better, education is better. Parenting is not better, parents have not kept up with what teachers are learning to do. Parents need to reclaim their role and responsibility that Yiddishkeite expects.

technology
Reply to  True...but...
March 18, 2024 10:21 am

the greatest difference is the TECHNOLOGY
Do not give your kids laptops, smart phones, computers, screens, ipads, do not allow the schools to use screen to teach your children with. Do not even give these to your teenagers. Do not allow them to have social media. Keep them away from evil

My thoughts
March 14, 2024 11:22 pm

If in those days the parents were on the schools side and today not but on their child side: it’s because their child they have control over and will have communication with. Where as the schools once the child is leaves, he leaves. Which teacher keeps in touch with his students these days?! Those days it did happen that the effect is till today but does any teacher have connection with his students even once they left yeshiva ( for better or even for worse aka OTD?!) As a chinuch tip which a lot would disagree from this younger generation:… Read more »

There should be zero tolerance
Reply to  My thoughts
March 15, 2024 12:23 am

For teachers that lack basic sensitivity and respect, but ultimately at least in the vast majority of cases, your child will be learning behavior from what they see in the home.

Well said!
March 14, 2024 11:36 pm

Hopefully parents AND teachers will take these words to heart. Young students should not be called “friends.”

It all boils down to having confidence in your way of life and knowing right from wrong. When you’re not confident yourself and right and wrong are relative (liberal thinking which has sadly plagued frum education to some degree), then you can’t lead confidently.

Hmmm....
March 14, 2024 11:41 pm

I think that developing knowledge about relationships between parents, children, and educational staff all too often can be a stagnant area. I think there is a lot to be said for being opened to ongoing learning about the intricacies of those relationships. That is not to say that the past ways were necessarily wrong, but more that as learning beings we can always improve. I do not know of any adult who, if able to reflect honestly, can not think of ways that their childhood experience could have used a bit more nurturing of feelings, more time to talk with… Read more »

I like it!
March 14, 2024 11:46 pm

Respect your kids teacher and your kids will too! Of course, we are not talking about shaming children publicly or anything like that.

So wrong
March 14, 2024 11:58 pm

So many things wrong with this article wouldn’t even know where to start, but most importantly, majority of adults who went through the old school system are very much not okay which says it all.

Hmmm
Reply to  So wrong
March 15, 2024 10:14 am

And many adults are okay BH

Anon
Reply to  Hmmm
March 19, 2024 2:33 am

If even one person was hurt, it’s worth reevaluating, and many people were hurt.

disagree
Reply to  So wrong
March 15, 2024 1:26 pm

I wholeheartedly agree with Rabbi Denburg. Today kids are fragile and are being parents are enabling downright rude, disrepectful behavior towards teachers and school in general.

We love Rabbi Denburg!!!
March 14, 2024 11:59 pm

Such an amazing teacher, master educator and inspiring Shliach.

The op-ed may be a hard pill to swallow but perhaps we should listen.

It’s a fine balance
March 15, 2024 12:08 am

Parents still need to be parents. And at the same time, see what the Rebbe says about harsh vs gentle discipline

On the ball!
March 15, 2024 12:10 am

Thank you so much for articulating this so beautifully. While it is true that environmental things change the essential human nature of children or adults does not change over time. This notion that us younger generation have figured everything out and all of our forbears before us were all wrong is ridiculous. The presumption to throw away generations of knowledge because of the ocean that we’re smarter is really foolish. Additionally this concept of mental health is if nobody has free choice is not helpful at all. If you give therapy to someone who doesn’t need it not only are… Read more »

Off the wall
Reply to  On the ball!
March 15, 2024 1:44 am

While the essential human nature of children or adults does not change over time, are we discussing essential human nature here? Few of the “younger generation” feel they “have figured everything” and “all” of our forbears before us were “all wrong”. Saying that is so, is ridiculous. Few throw away “generations of knowledge”. Hopefully many put on the shelf things considered knowledge yesterday, now not so appropriate. “if you give therapy to someone who doesn’t need it not only are you not helping him you’re making him worse.” Agree. Same could be said for information or knowledge. Most things unsolicited are… Read more »

A good therapist
Reply to  On the ball!
March 18, 2024 12:14 am

will not make it worse. If things get worse, a good therapist is actually probably needed!

So wrong
March 15, 2024 12:15 am

Old school parenting was literally parents just reacting to their kids based on their own triggers and programming, it was not a thought out scientific educational system, the whole point of new parenting is to work on your own issues and triggers so you can respond intentionally Instead of reactionary. This entire article is not based on actual facts and data which show how harsh parenting is harmful, saying well all these adults seem fine so it worked, when you actually have no ideal how they are doing, is not a solid argument, and really quite concerning coming from an… Read more »

Are you in chinuch?
Reply to  So wrong
March 15, 2024 1:34 pm

Are you in chinuch currently? If you raise a concern to a parent it immediately becomes the teacher’s fault. Nothing is wrong with their precious child. It must be the teacher doesn’t do this or should be doing that. There is no recognition that PERHAPS the child really is jumping off desks during class and being chutzpadik. That the child needs firm boundaries and to be told he may not act like that in class. Parents who speak to their children and make it known this is not acceptable vs permissive parents, the difference in the child and his progress… Read more »

You
Reply to  Are you in chinuch?
March 17, 2024 4:26 am

No one advocates for permissive parenting, you are confusing kindness with permissiveness. Everyone agrees kids need boundaries, and discipline, some of us just don’t believe that kids learn through pain and punishment.

I agree.
Reply to  So wrong
March 18, 2024 12:15 am

Quite concerning indeed.

Is this the result of the conference
March 15, 2024 12:39 am

I’m so disappointed with this article. Whoever views parents this way should not be in chinuch. This person clearly is not in touch about all the wonderful parenting workshops and tools that we now have as parents or about all the successful and amazing parents out there. When admins think so lowly of parents, It becomes school against parents and not about principals teaming up together with parents. We Baruch Hashem have excellent frum parenting coaches and leaders that teach excellent tools to put healthy boundaries, to have strong relationships with our kids and mostly to work on ourself to… Read more »

Are you in chinuch?
Reply to  Is this the result of the conference
March 15, 2024 1:39 pm

Clearly you are not in chinuch and or in administration. You have no idea what administrators are up against. of COURSE we want to partner with parents! But parents want to only give “positive consequences” and dismiss chutzpah and violent behavior… This gentle form of parenting without consequences and proper expectations is not working.

Let’s reword this
March 15, 2024 12:40 am

I think all the titles are misleading . Nowadays there is a push for INTENTIONAL parenting vs previously is was purely reactive .
So if a teacher is reactive and lets out their steam on a student – that isn’t OK. If the teacher from a very calm and centered place within them , punishes a child – that is called chinuch .

So as a parent , I expect the teacher to be the regulated adult in the room

40 years
March 15, 2024 2:02 am

While I might agree with some of RYD’s nuances and salute his decades of well-intentioned work, a. trying to identify a “greatest difference” and harping on some self-indulgent point as “the” reason” for such a complex topic like children’s education, in Lubavitch, post 3Tammuz, seems absurdly childish. b. the notion that being in a position for a long time makes one an expert in the field, while inherent to much of Lubavitch’s hierarchy, is self-serving but not intellectually honest. c. Sides? Yesterday parents were on school’s SIDE, today they’re on student’s SIDE? Is the education you’re managing a battle ground?… Read more »

Wrong wrong wrong
March 15, 2024 2:29 am

Being a student from the 80s I can tell you that the level of trauma in students from 40 years ago is unparalleled to today. The schools today unfortunately think they know more than they do. Most lubavitch educators are bochurim who became teachers and principals and are not in tune with kids who are not model students. Teachers should have a consultant talk some sense into them.

I've been saying this for a long time
March 15, 2024 3:05 am

These days, the educators have gotten a lot more sophisticated, but the children are only getting dumber.

That's not true!
Reply to  I've been saying this for a long time
March 17, 2024 6:12 am

I’m so happy with my kids schools!!
My son goes to Ohr Menachem, Crown Heights, and the amount of knowledge the kids are getting is incredible 👏 !! Boruch Hashem the teacher, teaches the children how to communicate when an issue arises! My son let’s me know if something needs to be worked out! I am confident that he is learning a very well balanced Chinuch.

Teachers need to be honest with themselves
March 15, 2024 5:12 am

I grew up in the 80s, you cannot imagine the verbal and emotional abuse we got. BH parents are more aware now and would not let that kind of abuse fly.
Another huge issue I have is many of the principals and teachers we have in our schools have taken these jobs for the wrong reasons. For some its a family business basically.
Some principals are very toxic. So whilst there is 0 tolerance for chutzpah, I would not want my child to think their behavior is ok so it’s not that simple.

Yakov
Reply to  Teachers need to be honest with themselves
March 16, 2024 11:24 pm

I too grew up in the 80s. The verbal and emotional abuse you talk about (I would also add the petch we received), by and large (with the exception of extreme cases), was not detrimental to our emotional well-being. On the contrary, when I look at the 40 students in my grade, the overwhelming majority are emotionally healthy, can hold down a job, and live productive lives. The numbers for today’s graduating classes that were raised with the new style chinuch are vastly different. We are definitely doing something wrong. Rabbi Denburg makes some really good arguments, albeit a hard… Read more »

Simchas Adar
March 15, 2024 5:25 am

With joy most of us are blessed to have children- With joy we have mosdos of chinuch al pi darko chassidus. With joy MEF recognized that educators need training and support and parents have resources as well. Each generation is raised in its proper time. We are not capable of functioning in the times of our grandparents and great grandparents. This generation of children, and their parents are in the social media generation, totally unlike the times you were raised in. Do you respect, empathize and support the challenges your parent and student body face, especially post Covid and especially… Read more »

Sad
March 15, 2024 7:43 am

The teachers need to be professionally educated as teachers before trying to educate children from ideas they receive from fellow colleagues

If Only
March 15, 2024 9:05 am

The the surface what Rabbi Denberg is saying seems to make sense. The older generation had tough love and produced resilient adults. Today we have gentle parenting and are producing snowflakes. If only that we so black and white and true. What about the hundreds of young adults my age who are working hard in therapy trying to undo generations of trauma. The legacy of of “tough love” was that of great emotional neglect and abuse going unchecked. I have heard too many stories of abuse and neglects. These adults are so scared and are now trying to raise the… Read more »

On that note…
March 15, 2024 9:08 am

I highly recommend reading the new book “Bad Therapy” by Abigail Shreier!

Like it
March 15, 2024 9:13 am

I like the general vibe of this even if I disagree with some details

Anonymous
March 15, 2024 9:14 am

The sheer statement , that the Parents should be more on the schools side , than the teachers side should go to show you who they’re really trying to build the schools for. The parents . So if you don’t have money , expect your child to get neglected and his education to be of poor structure . If you have money, expect a catered experience to your child’s needs and a lot of lies to get out of actually educating your child

Riva Denburg
March 15, 2024 9:18 am

It’s true that I am a family member/ sister in law. BUT, when it comes to chinuch, look at the results. My brother in law Yossie and his wife Rivkie, have been exceptional Mechanochim with their own children. All the children AYH , as the expression goes, TZU GAT UN TZU LEIT”

Anonymous
Reply to  Riva Denburg
March 15, 2024 12:53 pm

Results are one sided . The process is what needs to be done properly . Many factors cause a result . But necessary process and response need fixing

They are older
Reply to  Riva Denburg
March 15, 2024 5:00 pm

They are not currently raising kids of this generation. Also as parent, you can have kids that turn out well with the old way of parenting. However, there are some kids that need much more from us for them to turn out fine. From the way he speaks, it seems like Hashem did not test him with such kids. Maybe Hashem chooses the special parents who are willing to do the avodah to give them these special Neshamas. Instead of judging these parents, he should be humbled by them because of the nisayon and special neshamas Hashem entrusted them with.

Yakov
Reply to  Riva Denburg
March 16, 2024 10:33 pm

I agree with you 100%

Too many of the new age lectures on chinuch that are selling us a completely new derech cannot show positive results in their class or home… yet, we bought into this hook line and sinker.

RYD b”h and bli ayin hara has both personal and professional peiros to show… the proof is in the pudding.

This is a great article – thank RYD for saying what needs to be said

Two word difference: Role Models
March 15, 2024 10:24 am

Two word difference: Role Models I’m of the same generation and this is what I see. In my day, there was the Rebbe which was at a level and had a neshomo that we are unable to reach. After the Rebbe there were, rabonim, mechanchim and mashpim who were on top of the food chain in Lubavitch. There was a higher degree of respect and kabolos ol. There was also a very strong motivation that if you were a masmid and worked on yourself, you can reach that level yourself. Over the decades, the role models shifted to Shlichus. To… Read more »

Interesting
Reply to  Two word difference: Role Models
March 17, 2024 1:38 am

Very interesting point

C. B.
March 15, 2024 10:39 am

While it’s true that discipline and “work it out yourselves” makes for responsible adults, we still have to be careful not to overdo the tough love. I personally needed a lot of step by step direction, which i wasn’t only not given, but I was actually criticized for not trying and expecting others to do all the work. There are so many people today that did not get enough positive reinforcement as children. We need a lot of patience, and step by step direction.We are not trying to be pains in the neck. Room has to be left for this… Read more »

Has a point
March 15, 2024 10:40 am

No extreme one way or another is good or beneficial for our kids.
Our parents had one extreme and if they survived it they have passed on the trauma to us kids and then we tried working with it, made changes which took us to the opposite extreme.
A middle path is always recommended but that may be Moshiachs times.

Like (almost) everything else
March 15, 2024 11:23 am

The best path to take is the middle path. As the rambam and shulchan speak about. The other extreme you speak about is not good either, but the extreme of our parents was also incorrect. The best is the perfect balance of taking into account the child’s emotions but also working with them to work on things that are not right. And with all due respect to this person, I don’t think more time in the field necessarily means youre always correct. I had a teacher who bullied me and is still part of the school only now he’s a… Read more »

Today vs Yesteryears
March 15, 2024 11:38 am

Families today see the schools run as private family enterprises with most high positions filled by family members.

anonymous
March 15, 2024 12:02 pm

the difference is smartphones and the parents addiction to them

technology
Reply to  anonymous
March 18, 2024 10:27 am

AGREED
and using screens to teach your children and letting your children use screens

Anonymous
March 15, 2024 12:59 pm

The biggest issues aren’t just that , educators are related to each other . The issue is that preference / alternative solutions involved in many corners of the education system and decision making processes . Often times leading to that which does not belong in educational orgs .

David
March 15, 2024 1:11 pm

Yes children need to be disciplined, but no there is no need and it is not proper, to be physical. We aren’t baboons.

Clarification
March 15, 2024 2:09 pm

I believe this is a one page article for a particular community, not COL, and it is supposed to be a thought process, not a neatly tied up package with a simplistic answer to a complex issue. There is no doubt that many good and vital things have come about for children because of the focus on upgrading and being intentional about the way in which we interact and parent them. It should also be noted that the “older” generation suffered through a life that we cannot even begin to imagine, so the fact that they raised a generation after… Read more »

Non Crown Heightser
March 15, 2024 3:34 pm

Myopic views from the past. Shame that what he got from 52 educators.

Parents and the school systems
March 15, 2024 6:32 pm

Some articles bash the school system, and now it’s the school’s turn to bash parents. There is no one size fits all answer. There are wonderful mechanchim in wonderful schools and there are terrible mechanchim all over the place as well. There are great parents and some who haven’t learned yet the art of parenting… It is a PARTNERSHIP between the home and the school. Chinuch is the job of the parents and they have to be equal partners in the process. As a person in chinuch, a parent and grandparent, I clearly see that everyone is talking a different… Read more »

Sides?
March 16, 2024 11:24 pm

“Forty years ago, parents used to be on the school’s side. Today, they think they are on the child’s side.”
Sides?
Both the parents and the school should be on one side; the child’s side. Parents and school are a team to be Mechanech Hashem’s precious child.

Parents
March 17, 2024 8:24 am

I think someone mentioned it, todays parents were the kids educated by you/the system 30/40 years ago… maybe that means you have been doing something wrong

Trauma
March 17, 2024 9:47 am

Trauma causes pendelum swings. What happened that the generation before needed to have such an extreme pendulum swing?

Idea
March 17, 2024 1:04 pm

Each class and/or school should set a union set up by the parents, this union will represents the families when there are issues. Parents representing their own kids when issues arise would be like going to court without a lawyer.

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