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Tuesday, 11 Tishri, 5781
  |  September 29, 2020

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Rabbi Klein Talks to Friend

Rabbi Menashe Klein, who caused a stir by condemning the messianics who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive, has invited his friend Rabbi Noach Fox of Crown Heights to his home to discuss the matter. Full Story

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THE UNGAVER REBBEH MEANS WELL!!
January 23, 2010 6:31 pm

he’s surrounded by a small group of well meaning chasidim who have little time and even less access to learn the Sichos and Torah-sources on the subject

Mah Nishtanah
November 22, 2009 10:28 am

Rabbi Klein’s criticism from everys single normal Chabadnik who suffer more from the Meshichistim than any outsider. The Ungvaerer Rebbe is a tzaddik. He said this is a disgrace to the kavod of the Rebbe. Don’t all of us who think the same thing agree with Rabbi Klein? Some of these posts give credence to those who claim that “in their hearts” all Lubavitchers think the Rebbe is Moshiach. But they’re smart enough to keep quiet.” The Ungvarer Rav is on a whole other stratosphere than R. Orlofsky and Berger (whose biggest claim to his practice of Yiddishket is what… Read more »

to #311
September 15, 2009 12:00 am

did u read ALL 300 posts?

ur question is neither here nor there!!

mishichistim:::
June 21, 2009 7:18 am

WHY DO U GO TO THE OHEL ON GIMMEL TAMMUZ??????

wow...310 comments already!!!
June 21, 2009 7:15 am
308 u cant buy the words of "soney lubavitch" at face value!
May 26, 2009 4:41 am

were u born yesterday? or does all your info re chabad come from the media? berger and other bitter jealous types?

wow
May 26, 2009 2:51 am

never knew the m’s had normal ppl
and torah backing!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm gonna make a link to this page on my desktop
May 21, 2009 2:56 pm

stimulating,
riveting,
informative,

TO: 305 are u who i think you are? (Yudel K?)
May 20, 2009 10:16 am

for sake of clarity, will you pleas explain exactly WHAT was your point? (if you’re not YK, then you must at least be an insider!) the only message i extracted from your post is, that merkaz and Aguch have made some mistakes in it’s calculations and are trying to white wash or down play its record, of virtually ignoring the Rebbe’s wishes as they pertain to promoting the study of “inyonei moshiach” Now you seem to get it! that the topic is NOT taboo or too complex for the outside public to accept and respect! Provided of course, that it… Read more »

anonymous Shliach
May 20, 2009 8:24 am

BSD i’ll keep my comment anonymous. since its the message i wish to covey here! 1. as this forum reveals to the outside world, that chabad is far more united and peacful than the media reports would have you believe, 2. There are good reasons for many of us shluchim to have kept away from the “m” word, naimley bc a small yet noisy number of crazies have hijackt the cause, distancing the “normal” mainstream, for fear of guilt-by-association. 3. Aguch etc has been steadily attempting to create an alternative option for shluchim who wish to persue this mivtza in… Read more »

excuse me 301
May 20, 2009 7:36 am

i’m a considered a mishichist, by my belifes! and i dont think you should take any offence by 290’s comment!

unless you are from the 5% who have no respect or consideration, there is no reason for you to disagree with his observation,

its true! the vast majority of those who say yechi… are upset and disturbed by the Few M’shiguyim who turnoff and mislead soo many to believe that ALL “mishichistim” are crazy too!

they de-legitimize the rest of us~!

some advice
May 20, 2009 4:34 am

Please, please if you have a long comment, please use PARAGRAPHS.

This means, after two or three sentences, you press the enter key, and then continue your comment on the next paragraph.

This way, its much easier reading, and I guarantee you more people will read your comment.

Thanks.

Continued
May 20, 2009 3:40 am

so therefore kept it ‘under control’ but now that his chassidim went through such heavy nisyonos and in many ways were tremendously succesful as we see the success of shlichus holech umisgaber and bichlal lubavitch is gantz fine, from the papers and rhetoric the velt thinks the machlokes really took over our lives but in reality b’h lubavitch is by and large lshem ulitiferes especially if you imagine what another kreiz would do with such challenges, we don’t have to look far to see unfortunately what goes on by them. so let hashem have rachmonus on us and surely the… Read more »

simply
May 20, 2009 2:55 am

290
if ur already talkin, how bout we meshichistims views on antis? if ur already placing us in subjects, so dont call yourselves ‘chassidim’ call yourselves ‘antis’

MIGHTY 300! RECORD!
May 20, 2009 2:17 am

I HAVE THE ZECHUS (or else someone else commented meanwhile) TO COMMENT THE THREE HUNDREDTH (300) COMMENT ON THIS ARTICLE, ON THIS WEBSITE! YEAAAAAAAA!

293 simplistic
May 20, 2009 12:17 am

cute! but a bit over simplistic!

your generalization has some truth, to be sure, but it also has many exeptions, though as a generalization, its the best one i’ve heard in a while!

APM
May 19, 2009 11:31 pm

as a meshichist id like to thank you for calling 95 % of us normal, commenter leeil. i wont talk about the rest.
hey everyone, 5 left!! were going to break a world record!!!

Continued
May 19, 2009 7:08 pm

so therefore kept it ‘under control’ but now that his chassidim went through such heavy nisyonos and in many ways were tremendously succesful as we see the success of shlichus holech umisgaber and bichlal lubavitch is gantz fine, from the papers and rhetoric the velt thinks the machlokes really took over our lives but in reality b’h lubavitch is by and large lshem ulitiferes especially if you imagine what another kreiz would do with such challenges, we don’t have to look far to see unfortunately what goes on by them. so let hashem have rachmonus on us and surely the… Read more »

both sides lshaim shomayim
May 19, 2009 6:54 pm

I think it should be pointed out that truthfully both persuations are in this l’shaim shomayim as they both (at least those I know) sincerely feel they are adhering to the rebbes wishes. The left know there were new developments around nun aleph time and there were significant signals that things were looser than in the past with pirsum of moshiach etc but still the rebbe did not give a free hand to go completely all out as you can see from the answer he gave to south africa that it needed to be assessed by chabad there. so what… Read more »

correction for "J Stein from boston"
May 19, 2009 5:40 pm

i enjoyed your piece, thoughtful!

i have an editorial suggestion, you should switch the order of the wording in your Summery:
instead of…

“DELIVERY” vs “SUBSTANCE”
should be
“SUBSTANCE “vs “DELIVERY”

sequence! “What” before “How”

no qualms with the “substance” of your “message” only with your “delivery” (execution: would be a good word to insert, as in MISSION vs EXECUTION… or GOAL vs STRATEGY… or AGENDA vs IMPLEMENTATION…)

to #293 Dr J Stein, great analasys
May 19, 2009 5:17 pm

you are brilliant in your breakdown

(i assume you are a doc)

outsider's obsevervation
May 19, 2009 4:56 pm

i’d like to submit to both camps; that each camp (though seemingly closer than ever) needs to learn from the other, in my humble opinion the following “QUALITIES” seem to be possessed by either one camp or the other, A) The Anti camp: seem good at PR, Marketing and “presentability” (great for Kiruv and Fundraising) lets dub this “DELIVERY” B) The Mishiachist camp, seems less adept at present-ability and more astute at Substance and Ideology! aka getting “it” right! “on-message” … Idealistic and Talmudic! in distilling and detecting the holistic picture, -a knack for “TRUTH” (“principled” with little concern for… Read more »

291
May 19, 2009 2:11 pm

u aint ever gonna pleez them envious soiney lubavitch, its beyond rational reason!

chabad never paid attention to them!

al yoivesh mipnei hamaligim!

ATTENTION: #288 ...its allowed, its not apikursus!
May 19, 2009 11:53 am

re#287 YOU WROTE:
…”this list only works for chasidim of the rebbeh”…

I’M SATISFIED WITH BEING ABLE TO DEFEND MY BELIEF AS “PERMITTED” BY HALACHA,

I DONT WISH TO IMPOSE MY BELIFS ON ANYONE ELSE

I JUST WANT THEM TO STOP ATTACKING ME AS A KOFER FOR MY BELIEF!

287 add this
May 19, 2009 11:12 am

#14 we chasidim all agree that 95% of mishichistim are decent mentshlich stable people, who are embarrassed by the vocal 5% who show little respect for authority and the Rebbe’s kavod!

to post #266 allow me to word smith this summation
May 19, 2009 11:01 am

simple and to the point!

re chabads belief in the Rebbe as Moshiach:

1.HALACHA = allows it

2.CHASIDUS = states it

thus
why a CHOSSID believes it! since
alpi NIGLA its “MUTOR”
and
alpi CHASIDUS its “A FACT”

re: #287
May 19, 2009 10:40 am

while i cannot dispute any items you listed

this list only works for chasidim of the rebbeh!

collive has just revealed a UNKNOWN FACT for 15years!!
May 19, 2009 9:00 am

we are far closer than ever imagined, while collive’s purpose at the outset, in posting this news item, was probably journalistic! and not about holding a special debate forum persay! it seems (to me at least) that something very special and worthy happened here! that has NEVER yet been done “properly”. never before since gimil tamuz, has there been such a public, free open exchange of arguments pro n anti, centered around the framework of “Torah-sources” in a way, which allowed both sides to get a better understanding of the other’s thinking and common ground! never before have i witness… Read more »

281
May 19, 2009 8:19 am

283: thanks for rephrasing what i said
but yes! as of now (there are 285) only 15 left

283! yes
May 19, 2009 7:44 am

happy?

280
May 19, 2009 7:40 am

i agree with you ultra brief comment!

lets all just call ourselves chasidim, chasidey-chabad!
and then lets strive to live up to that “title” by,
#1 Doing all mitzvos b’hidur
#2 Daily kvius b’nigla u’b’chasidus
#3 Daily kvius b’limud inyonei Geula…
#4 Daily Chitas + Rambam
#5 Daily Tzedoko before Shacharis Mincha
#6 Daily Mikva (if possible)
#7 Friday Mivtzoyim
saying yechi hamelech or adoineneinu, which ever your mashpia guides you to

thanks to collive for keeping the exchange productive and somewhat respectful, kol hakavod!

i have this OCD urge to post 16 more comments = 300
May 19, 2009 7:16 am

even if the comments are the names of all hat brands:

so will anyone with toichin out there write something relevant?

moshiach now!
May 19, 2009 7:04 am

I like this positive ending! (278, 279) nicest comments so far!! and most tachlisdik. I agree, do everything in your possibility to bring Moshiach!!
its in our hands now!

GO COLLIVE! U MADE A RECORD PROBABLY!
May 19, 2009 3:05 am

hey ppl, before you completely stop commenting:
lets try to break the record of 300 comments ok? were not to bad, as of now there are 278, only 22 left!
probably this is a record of any chabad site, not just COLLIVE

PLEASE STOP USING DEVISSIVE LANGUAGE!!
May 19, 2009 3:02 am

THE REBBEH NEVER ACCEPTED SUCH WORDS AS “REFORM, CONSERVATIVE ETC

I’M SURE “MISHICHIST AND ANTI… VECHULHU….

278 100000000000000000000000%
May 19, 2009 2:46 am

ACTIONS IS THE REBBE’S WILL!!

lets all together strengthen our b’tachon and emuna, and most importantly to DO B’POEL MAMUSH… all our avoda B’SIMCHA, B’ACHDUS, imbued with the absolute certainty of the Rebbe’s words!

geula NOW B’HISGALUS!

n'eNow!
May 19, 2009 2:19 am

so, as the debate is closing:

everyone, heads up! moshiach is coming! (i wont force my beliefs on all you antis, but i believe the rebbe is moshiach) so now, i agree with 275, hamaase hu ha’ikar, take on a special hachlata to bring moshiach NOW mamash!!

mechihist
May 19, 2009 1:29 am

cool it chayim, i was just reminding you…

mechihist
May 19, 2009 1:28 am

255
102 compared to 270?

simple message
May 19, 2009 1:20 am

1 message to all 270 commenters:

“Hamaase hu haikker”

why no more comments?
May 18, 2009 8:08 pm
it appares that the debate is over!
May 18, 2009 7:50 pm

not with a bang! but a wimper!

TO: Mr J Stein from Boston MA +posts #192, #195 and #214
May 18, 2009 6:59 pm

BH
i think you may want to contact a Rabbi in Flatbush, Rabbi Zalman Liberow!
who shares your aspiration, of setting up a orginize public debate, where all possible arguments and sources have a final face-off

i do know that he faild to get it executed bc NO ONE from the Anti camp would agree to volunteer, not even as a team of 3 or more!

You may lookup his contact info, as this forum is quite public

Mendy K NY

269 you meant "one stop shop"
May 18, 2009 6:55 pm

slow down on pecking the keyboard!

i’m guessing that you are a (gleeful) mishichist!

i've never had such a good read in a blog
May 18, 2009 5:47 pm

this incorporates all the uicy ingredients!
Disputes
Passion
Religion
Party-politics
Personal attacks
Insightful arguments
Inside info
Celebs (Yoel K)
Destiny (Messiah)
Mystery (Geula)
Kabbala
Misnagdim
Torah learning (no bitul torah guilt)
Gezhe vs NewB

RECORD BREAKING HISTERY MAKING NUMBER OF COMMENTS

veculhu vechulhu

colliv ROX

GO GO COLLIVE
May 18, 2009 5:38 pm

U ARE THE NEW STOP SHOP!

u can email a link to those who disrespect chabad bc they think our beief is "heresy" kifira ch"v
May 18, 2009 12:47 pm

i have a feeling that most misnagdim who put down chabad bec of its beliefs… are not aware of the torah sources listed above!

in the interest of recapturing kavod lubavitch i will be emailing this link to 12 of my litfisher relatives!
one click but lots of results (they will certainly turn-it viral which is great for chabad!)
no longer the loony “kofer” cousin!

everyone should print this out whenever its done!
May 18, 2009 11:41 am

this is one of the best texts avail. to use as a launching pad for group classes in “inyonei geula”

ther are no less than 50 good sources to lookup, just by examining the “mentioned” texts! quoted above!

it cuts straight to the most realistic and tangible aspects of “inyonei m v’g”

i wasent kidding in this comment, i’m doing exactly that with my chavrusa!

the most loaded comment ever!
May 18, 2009 11:34 am

i looved it soo much that i’m turning it into a bumpersticker,

dont worry at all for me i live in lakewood! they wont get it!

simple and to the point!

this was the post: (241)

241
#233 u somed it up!

HALACHA = alowes

CHASIDUS = forces it!

= A CHOSSID believes that which is Mutar Alpy torah and M’chuyov alpy Sichos-Chassidus!

#262 sounds bitter
May 18, 2009 10:45 am

“kabel es hoemes mimi sheomro”

i suspect your bitterness has more todo with the lack of robust counter arguments on yourside,
and not about the anarchy you decry!

btw

i’m no mishiachist! merely a very curiouse and open-minded, student of Yeshiva U. NY

to mr #262 i'm no mishichist
May 18, 2009 10:39 am

but i am baffeled and humored by your resorting to NAME CALLING, mud slinging etc,

all whilst at th very next breath you brand yourself as the “thoughtful + reasonable” kind!

these were your desperate words:
….”they will never see reason”….

implication that your “reasons” are too sophisticated for this blogesphare!!

thanks for insulting the intelligence of 90,000 readers who according to public records frequent this site!

262 "anarchists"?? name calling! nebach!
May 18, 2009 10:34 am

name calling is a sign of “loosing a debate”

its totally natural to feel upset! at collive for facilitating an OPEN 2 sided debate!

even allowing bitter comments like yours in, even though they are useless to any of the solid arguments above!

collive live deserves a yashar koach for allowing such an overdue venue to be had!
better late than never!

Hey Noach, how was the tea?
May 18, 2009 9:16 am

I prefer coffee myself. Seriously though, it seems pointless to try and save the name of Lubavitch, when so many people within are working so hard to destroy it. Moshichists are essentially anarchists, and anarchists are impossible to deal with — they will never see reason.

to 258
May 18, 2009 9:13 am

258 u should learn some anivus

251
May 18, 2009 7:24 am

to 257
i beg mechila
i really did not have that in mind… im so sorry!
my whole comment was that with a afterthought of the second part
oy i feel so bad 🙁
btw r u a meshichist? just curious. no need to answer if u dont want to

Chayim
May 18, 2009 6:59 am

u r cute!
i have a feeling u r behind those as well, so u can generate the illusions of being a “victim” nebach nebach misrepresented when your arguments fall flat!

dont use this as a tactic to skirt the overall issue!

nice try!

Chayim here
May 18, 2009 6:45 am

Just to clear up confusion: This is my first post since last night, like I said I would be leaving the conversation.

Just use this rule: if a post doesn’t have proper sentence structure, syntax, grammar and spelling, as well as reasoned arguments, it’s not me.

Chayim

#251 =stop gloating!
May 18, 2009 6:44 am

you are not an example of a chossid or mentshlich mishichist!

i’m referring to your opening line of Yechi…

thats not the appropreate use!

btw i accept your point, regardless

i’m not surprised at all at the slanted reporting of vosizneis

QUESTION TO: hottopik jukiez
May 18, 2009 6:34 am

whats the connection exactly, ppl discussing this has got nothing to do at all w hottopx!! 0 its about a free and open exchange! never allowed before!

to all you hottopic junkies
May 18, 2009 6:32 am

this is on collive = also amillion comments!
click
https://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=3529

this blog is the new scmooze in town!
May 18, 2009 6:07 am

collive keep both sides represented, its a big hit!!

collive is going big in the LITVISH YESHIVISH VELT
May 18, 2009 6:06 am

though internet is asur!

we loooove your uncensored editing!
unlike the vusiznies and the others where they only just one side

i’m sortof half snagy and half belz and i never had the chance to hear the other side!!

mechihist
May 18, 2009 4:48 am

239
its ur choice if u want to be here or not
no one forcing u
ur boss might be angry at u if u dont show up to work. although i do say that reading these comments are very, er, educational lets say. gives you inspiration,

a proud MESHICHIST
May 18, 2009 4:40 am

yechi adonenu morenu verabenu melech HAMOSHIACH leolam vaed!!
btw, see article, where it says “Reported first on COLlive, the ruling was heatedly debated in over 200 comments and on other Jewish websites. Some supported, others were outraged by the statement.” like “WOW!! OVER 200 COMMENTS!” here we are at 250… 🙂 lol

meshichist (thank you, le'eil)
May 18, 2009 4:37 am

to 239 (chayim)
i dimly recall a comment a few tens ago, where u say (unless by coincidense its a diff chayim) that ur stopping commenting by sunday night. (5/18/2009 12:07:01 AM), if im not mistaken, is monday

its good! stay on it! you and lots others will probably get to learn a lot and see all kinds of opinions.
and im a bit confused at what you are. a meshichistt?

retraction
May 18, 2009 4:15 am

i’m positive that Rabbi K, is already formulating his retraction,
infear of Rabbi Wolpo producing a rebuttal seffer, which would make mints meat out of his arguments and pshat!

RK will publish his retraction, as the ONLY way do save his legacy as a credible gadol in other topics of Halacha,

Chaim Meir, Brookly NY (i’m a fan of Chabad and Rabbi MK shlit”a)

dear Chaim (anti)
May 18, 2009 3:58 am

notice how u started out, defending your position by quotingRMK as gospal now you recognize his lack of compitance to be relevant to a Torah discussion, in this topic where HE (rk) has not much familarity, or experties (in his track record! why would he print a sefer, before at least studying the relevant sichos on how the rebbeh learn pushuteh pshat?! that is not just poor judgement but a contradiction of his very own statements re the Rebbe’s Gadlus in Torah, he and Reb Mordechai Eliyahu have both declearde the Rebbeh as the undisputed Greatest lamdon in our generation… Read more »

this mist be an all time recoed "comments"
May 18, 2009 3:31 am

go colive go!!

242 lets keep rmk's pshetlach out! he's already disqualified himself as a relivant man d'aomar!!
May 18, 2009 2:57 am

ever since he arrogantly or naively PARTED FROM THE REBBE’S PSHAT!

242 RABBI K'S IRRELIVANT ON THIS POINT I BACK DOWN
May 18, 2009 2:53 am

I’LL GIVE IT TO YOU!

I GOTTAT RUN NOW!

242 RABBI KLEIN CLEARLY TRANSLATES THE RAMBAM AND PLENTY MORE "NOT" LIKE THE REBBEH. WHOH'S CHASSID ARE U?
May 18, 2009 2:51 am

242 RABBI KLEIN CLEARLY TRANSLATES THE RAMBAM AND PLENTY MORE “NOT” LIKE THE REBBEH. WHOH’S CHASSID ARE U?

Reply to Chayim #234 B& D
May 18, 2009 2:50 am

Your problem with this whole conversation is that your mixing up the Rambam’s view L’halacha and the gemoras etc. The whole heora there in Lk’s 35 is trying to explain the posuk according to the Rambam but not that there are NO other views. The Rebbe would always say over the years especially when he spoke about Eschalta Dgeulah that there are many midrashim & gemoras but L’halacha we go by the Rambam. Having said that, when we are trying to understand a Rashi in gemora, it is ridiculous for you to constantly come back to Halacha (as you say… Read more »

Reply to 234 - Rabbi Klein CLEARLY TRANSLATES RASHI NOT LIKE YOU
May 18, 2009 2:04 am

Chayim, I am going straight to your response to E. as I was eager to learn how you would respond to the fact that Rabbi Klein CLEARLY translates Rashi NOT like you. Your response that I should look at the 3rd paragraph, I did and Rabbi Klein does not change one iota from his translation of Rashi in the 2nd to last paragraph like ME! All he is saying in the 3rd paragraph is that you can’t have a Moshiach who was buried and claim he’s alive b’chodo machto which is his main attack in the whole piece but not… Read more »

#233 u somed it up!
May 18, 2009 12:23 am

HALACHA = alowes

CHASIDUS = forces it!

= A CHOSSID believes that which is Mutar Alpy torah and M’chuyov alpy Sichos-Chassidus!

kol hakavod!
May 18, 2009 12:09 am

oh my, these 230+ comments are sooooooooooooooo interesting! i spent like 1/2 hour reading them all! kol hakavod!
btw i think further comments should (for the sake of clarity to readers like me) be entitled by the person writing them ‘meshichist’ or ‘anti’ so it will be clear from the start where theyre heading

ad mossay
May 18, 2009 12:07 am

when will this barrage of attacks end, i need to get back to work!

Chayim

woow
May 18, 2009 12:00 am

omygoodness, 233 comments! is this a record for collive?
yasher koiach rabbi klein on bringing up such a controversial subject
even those manis-friedman and those sorts D”L articles dont generate so many comments! obviously chevlei moshiach!
yechi hamelech hamoshiach! i believe the rebbe is moshiach!

To everyone
May 17, 2009 6:52 pm

I greatly enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for the opportunity to spend a few days learning non stop.

May Hashem grant that you do what you are supposed to do to help bring Moshiach.

Sholom, it’s been nice engaging with you, keep it strong.

Sincerely,
Chayim

233
May 17, 2009 6:46 pm

You’re taking R Yoel’s words out of context. They support my view, not yours.

Also? Newsflash: Rabbi Klein is a very, very credible posek. Your collective sheer ignorance and apathy to this point is extremely shameful.

Reply to Chayim #223 - Yefei Anaf Techiyas Hameisim
May 17, 2009 6:46 pm

No hard feelings at all but your statement : “The Yefei Anaf explains that Moshiach can only be from the dead (Dovid in our case) according to the opinion that says that techiyas hameisim will happen BEFORE Moshiach (unlike what we hold)” is embarassing for a lamdan, show that whole post 223 to anyone vos ken abissil lernen in Lubavitch and they will laugh at you, even if you know what you’re saying, which it sounds like you don’t, you’re certainly writing it very krum. The Yefei Anaf is only explaining how Dovid Hamelech is going to be transported to… Read more »

#232
May 17, 2009 6:43 pm

A. Good point: If Rashi CHANGES the words of the Gemara, we look a little harder. B. The point is moot, as I’ve already shown you that the Rebbe takes the position of the Yefei Anaf who holds that this opinion is not l’halacha (look it up if you didn’t understand what I said). C. Not if the words Rashi uses specifically negate such an approach. As to your harboring on the fact that I admitted that I didn’t understand this Rashi: maybe you missed it: I UNDERSTAND THE RASHI. And yes, it’s the only way to understand it (if… Read more »

#230
May 17, 2009 6:31 pm

you disagree with Rabonim and Dayonim, far more qualified than you or i, and you do so with the arrogance of a Yesh who is trying desperatly to deffend an increasingly crumbelling position! crumbelling bec, as time passes and ppl get better informed a number of prominant Rabbonim, Chabad and Not Chabad have been forced to retract their reflexive statements against chabad’s belief! today you’d be Hard pressed to find a single credible “Dayan Rov or Psek, who would claim that the belief in the Rebbeh as moshiach is heretical or baseless, as for us chasidim, i;ll revert to a… Read more »

Reply to Chayim #223 & #209 - Rashi in Sanhedrin
May 17, 2009 6:19 pm

As well, for the last time (otherwise were just spinning wheels), the reason I say you’re hacking is because: You say I’m going away from the simple pshat when it’s clearly in the reverse for the following reasons:. A. Rashi is translating the words in the gemora “אי מן מתיא הוא” (ee min maysaya HU) If he IS from the dead. The gemora does not say HAYA, and therefore, especially if you have a question how to understand Rashi you try to fit his words into the simple translation of the words of the gemora especially when they clearly make… Read more »

227 HUH!
May 17, 2009 6:15 pm

your pseudo “empirical” claim is cute, bec you fail to point to anything empirical!
for a jew, and especially a chossid, there is nothing more conclusive and factual (or “empirical”) as what the Torah says, …what a Rebbeeh says… what a Posek saays etc etc

“olamos b’hischadshus” and “elokus b’pshitus”

the given is the words of “ben amram” the doubt is on our eyes when they seem to suggest the opposite of Torah Reality,
(think of mosheh on the mountain, the golden calf… most jews followed the “empirical” approach though it conflicted with Moshe;s statements…)

#222
May 17, 2009 6:06 pm

You have seriously misunderstood me, sir. I did not, as you say, “surrender” anything. The yehi ratzon statement was a general rule that applies to many many so-called “proofs”. That’s what I said originally, and that’s what I maintain. From the beginning I maintained that it’s Halachically unacceptable to claim with certainty that the Rebbe is currently Moshiach, but that it is acceptable to hope that he will be Moshiach by rising in a miraculous techiya before Moshiach comes. I didn’t change this view. Finally, the only mention I made of a so-called “shift in policy” was that there was… Read more »

225 more action! includes hashpa-ah al hazulas! to do the rebbe's directives!
May 17, 2009 6:03 pm

notice the agenda of the meshichist’s comments, they are not just trying to win the “argument”
the punchline keeps returning to the same montra “learn inyonei m…” you must give them more credit for rmaining focussed on trying to persuade their crytics to “open their eyes” and learn the sichos!

btw
arguing is useful if its l’shmah’
devorim hayotzim min halev…
i believe they mean to encourage the opposition to realize the need to learn… in order to really “live” in the new reality (moshiachdiga reality)

#224
May 17, 2009 5:55 pm

I’m glad you brought this up, because ultimately, I don’t know anything. There are people who are smarter and more chassidish than myself, and most importantly were much closer to the Rebbe, on both sides of the debate.

Ultimately it comes down to who is the most trustworthy of these people, and who has the least personal agendas.

#221
May 17, 2009 5:52 pm

In general, when one does a mathematical calculation of which the results contradict empirical evidence, one comes to the conclusion that the calculation was mistaken.

But you believe too greatly in yourself to allow empirical evidence to affect your calculations.

#219
May 17, 2009 5:49 pm

I left out the parenthesis about “eino ta’un geniza” because it’s a side remark of the Rebbe, to show how the eternity of the Even Hashesiya is even greater than that of the Aron.

Don’t add anything to what the Rebbe is saying.

MORE ACTION AND LESS TALK PEOPLE.....
May 17, 2009 5:19 pm

PEOPLE GET A LIFE AND GET MOVING DOING GOOD THINGS AND FORGET THE ARGUEMENT.
Learn chassidus , learn inyanim of geulah but, only the ABISHTER will decide who and when Moshiach comes.
Fighting about it will never help to bring him.
Don’t lose sight of the goal – do what you need to bring Moshiach now, don’t argue about who and when he comes.

223
May 17, 2009 4:00 pm

you are very clever but need to relax and deal with the main issue, that the Baalei Niglah across the spectrum, (chasidish – livish) allow for it! the Baalei Chasidus, mashpiim, etc including Rabbi Ginsburg Require it as a natural and obvious concussion of chasidus b’chlal, bossi legany, and the sichis b’frat, are you smarter than all of them? both in Nigla and Chasidus? i’m not soo arrogant, but i an very humbled by those who have simple emunas tzadikim, having no dificulty believing that this is indeed the last generation, and the Rebbeh being our Nossi is thus Moshiach… Read more »

#218
May 17, 2009 3:40 pm

Nothing personal, but saying the word “gehakt” over and over doesn’t make you more right. I’m especially surprised that you refuse to learn a simple Rashi al pi pshuto, and insist on adding and deleting words and interpretations at will, then claiming it’s “pshat”. As for your question: We hold that when Moshiach will come there will be a period of time when we live in Eretz Yisroel beharvacha, in a quasi-normal life, only with different focus etc. Then there will be a second period, the start of which will be Techiyas Hameisim. (For someone who berates others for not… Read more »

216 or Chaim
May 17, 2009 3:34 pm

is evidently working very hard!

take a moment and answer me, is this the first time that you have opened a sicha of nun aleph and nun beis? bec i do witness a interesting evolution in your comments from hardened anti, who simplistically renders all sichos after mem ches as wishful “yehi rotzons” to the more recent comments where you have clearly surrendered a lot of ground, namely the issue of does halacha allow such a belief, and whether the rebbe had a distinct shift in policy in the last preparatory years before 27 adar

dear chayim
May 17, 2009 3:14 pm

dont you see an obvious problem with your view, you claim that the Rebbe’s words are 100% then you acknowledge that the Rebbeh leaves no room for dor shmini (visavi geula and a new nosi) hence you acknowledge that thr Rebbeh is still our nossi then you also admit that the rebbeh proclaimed (not just in bossi legani) that we are the final dor of galus and the first of geulah” again you dont question the Rebbe’s words! then you admit that by (chasidus) definition the nossi hador is a neshama b’guf! (according to many maamorim w/o a living nossi… Read more »

218! makes sense w/o haking!
May 17, 2009 2:58 pm
216 REBUTTAL TO YOUR "CONCEPT" SPIN
May 17, 2009 2:57 pm

everyon who reads 216 should open the sicha for yourself!

compare the words of this clever spin-doctor to that of the rebbeh when explicitly hilights the fact that even ahashesiya does not have “geniza”

all those who havent read the sicha inside, i advise you do so, never take anyone elses’ “summery

compare these words to the actual sicha!!

……..Just like the Even Hashesiya is everlasting, so too there exists an actual shofet in every single generation, making the CONCEPT of “shofet” everlasting…..

Reply to 211
May 17, 2009 2:03 pm

Reply to 211 (Chayim) Hi Sholom here, As much of your rebuttal is pure gehakt and we’re going in circles I will not address those parts. However I don’t understand what you are asking here: You write: “why did he have to bring from the Yefei Anaf which explains that Dovid Hamelech can be Moshiach ONLY according to the opinion that Moshiach will come AFTER techiyas hameisim?? Unless you believe that the Rebbe can only be Moshiach according to that opinion as well (NOT how we hold)???” #1 Do you have another suggestion as to how Dovid Hamelech will get… Read more »

#215
May 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Huh?

Re: "even hashesiya"
May 17, 2009 1:47 pm

*sigh* Again, you quote things of which you have absolutely no understanding. Did you even learn the Sicha?? I’ll assume not, so we’ll learn the relevant piece together. The following is an accurate synopsis of the Rebbe’s words: intro: The Nassi Hador is the shofet of that generation. 1. The practical application of this, is that every single person has within him a shofet as well. 2. It is our job to take the directives of the general shofet and – through the shofet within us – integrate it in every facet of our lives. 3. Additionally, we are the… Read more »

#209, #210, #211, BRAVO!!
May 17, 2009 1:25 pm

notice where you started out some 180 comments ago,

you’v clearly made a whole lot of progress, KOL HAKAVOD!

i have not porticipated in this forum until now, and i must say, as an observer, you are considerably intelligent! and a good run for the money!

non the less, the fact that these folks nearly converted you, in a matter of Hours, is very remarkable! to YOUR credit!
in all sincerity, i have never witnessed the combo of a bright-blogger who is also intellectual honest! in the world of “blogisphere”!

very impressive! you’re slowly but surely coming around!

195
May 17, 2009 1:06 pm

i detect concern in your post re the prospect of a formal public debate, if it is true that the Lubavitshir Rebby advocated the promulgation of this topic, that it be widely studied and understood, would it then not follow that such an event (properly promoted and executed) would serve to further the Rebbis wishes, would it not? as for your comment re a multiplicity of views within the chabad collective, c’mon now, i wasn’t born last night and i’m quite familiar with the general divide within chabad, between the so called messianists and the anti-messiansts perhaps you fear that… Read more »

To Everyone
May 17, 2009 12:09 pm

I just want to say that, as much as I’m enjoying this discussion (and I am), I simply don’t have time to continue it much longer.

After tonight, I’m done. (You have till then to convert me.)

Chayim

#198 and #200
May 17, 2009 11:51 am

How is that link relevant to this discussion?

#203
May 17, 2009 11:04 am

3 of 3 You will create a NEW BASIS IN HALACHA based SOLELY on the fact that the Rebbe gave an explanation which is EQUALLY as valid as another. Is that how you pasken Halacha?! Not only that, but with bringing this he’orah you shoot yourself in the foot: If the Rebbe holds that Moshiach can be from the dead, why did he have to bring from the Yefei Anaf which explains that Dovid Hamelech can be Moshiach ONLY according to the opinion that Moshiach will come AFTER techiyas hameisim?? Unless you believe that the Rebbe can only be Moshiach… Read more »

#203
May 17, 2009 10:27 am

2 of 3

You’re saying the same thing as me:

Halacha CANNOT be based on miracles. If that’s the case, one MAY NOT say that the Rebbe IS Moshiach, as that goes against Halacha (as proven above). However, the Rebbe still MAY BECOME Moshiach (out of the realm of strict Halacha), based on a miracle. So we agree?

#203
May 17, 2009 10:19 am

I’ll admit when something is difficult to understand, as in the case of this Rashi. Nevertheless, when I said “it seems” I was saying that’s the pshat. In any case, the one thing that’s CLEAR from this Rashi is the word “hoyoh” TWICE which means PAST TENSE. In other words, he WOULD HAVE BEEN Moshiach. This is the SIMPLE MEANING of Rashi, and you are DISTORTING the words. And your nice pshetel that it means he was chosen doesn’t make sense at all. You literally would have to add the word “(hoyoh) nivchar” for that to make any sense (even… Read more »

its raining posts
May 17, 2009 10:02 am

RMK deserves some credit for generating so much Torah discourse!

re #203
May 17, 2009 9:45 am

moral of the story (antis) never mess with a mishichist!

unless they agree not to use sichos or Daas Torah!

to all you learned mishichiasts, hats off you all sorta nearly converted me! i never knew the veracity of you arguments!

Reb Sholom #203
May 17, 2009 9:42 am

thanks you are mezake horabim!

kol hakavod,!!

HOW PECULIAR
May 17, 2009 9:41 am

the anti-s have suddenly gone silent!
or is it just dinner time?

To #199
May 17, 2009 9:36 am

Of course, the fact that the Rebbe REFERS to his explanation in se’if 5 means nothing to you.

Reply to 167 Rashi Sanhedrin & Rambam
May 17, 2009 9:23 am

Hi this is Sholom again, In 167 you gave one translation of Rashi and in 172 you give another which you say “seems to be” the correct one. Well obviously if you are unsure what Rashi means in your corrected version you’re certainly unsure about your first translation. Let’s analyse your first (leaving your caps) “If Moshiach WAS from those who have already died, then he WAS Daniel.” Now just taking the words themselves (without your spin with the caps) can simply mean that the gemora is saying that if Moshiach will be someone who has already died he will… Read more »

200 posts and we'r just geting started!
May 17, 2009 9:02 am
am horets
May 17, 2009 8:57 am

do u all xpect me t read 200 comnts?

u gdudes sure must b havin lots of fun

197
May 17, 2009 8:55 am

you quote 5727 w/o presenting it, you had me there for a second, v\nice try i almost thought you actually had a sicha to prove you point! interesting that your knowledge of sichos is as predictable, very limited in the recent sichos were most of the “chidushim” aka shift in plicy is elucidated, in great pain-staking detail! again read the link above and if u still have questions i’ll be hear waiting for you! again u sound bright, but too bussie to have caught up on your sichos, and inyonei geula here’s a tip! until you got around to covering… Read more »

Reply to 167 - Misquote Accusation
May 17, 2009 8:54 am

Hi Chayim, this is Sholom, before responding to your reply #167 I’m replying to #168 just to get that out of the way.

The fact that you didn’t even bother to look up the exact chapter & page even though I provided that for you is leading me to think that all your other droshos are not well thought out.

What YOU are quoting is in the middle of Os 5 (pg 470) but what I was quoting was in Os 6 (pg 472) where the Rebbe adds MOSHIACH TZIDKEINU leaving no room for people like you to make dreidlach.

197 here is the Rebuttal to what you just said
May 17, 2009 8:46 am
#189
May 17, 2009 8:42 am

I never mentioned “yaamod melech”. But if you’d like to see what the Rebbe DOES say on that subject, please see the sicha of Tammuz 12, 5727… Nevertheless, you (and #190) again show how you drey the Rebbe’s words (or lack thereof, as the case may be) to fit your own agenda. “Shemolach kvar” DOESN’T mean that he’s dead. It DOES mean that he has already been king, excluding a case where he wasn’t yet a king. The fact that the Rebbe felt this wasn’t a proof for “min hachayim davka” is the very reason I didn’t mention it as… Read more »

187 pleeeeease answe 190
May 17, 2009 8:38 am

i’m waiting with bated breath,

are u smarter than Reb Yoel Kahan (who is far from a public Mishichist)

and read the link 193

to "Mr. Stein from Boston"
May 17, 2009 8:37 am

Let’s set the record straight: there are no 2 camps in Chabad.

Lubavitchers don’t always think alike, like any human being is G-d’s world.

And if you are looking to define the difference of opinions in Lubavitch as camps, there are much more then just two.

And, if you are really a friend of Chabad as you say: then you would know better then spending $ on a debate.

190
May 17, 2009 8:34 am

i happen to agree with u!

but please type a little more carfully!

u meant to write “E-VEN-HA-SHE-SEE-AH”

i’m quite familiar with that sicha, it always rubbed me the wrong way, i’m glad to know that Reb Yoiel, understands it “kipshootoy”

the implication is that the rebbeh is 1. Not Dead, 2. Not buried!

is it a test of faith in “moshe’s words” i dont know!

anyone care to pipe in please?

to all antis: this should kinda clear things up for u
May 17, 2009 8:28 am
my proposal!
May 17, 2009 8:26 am

i’d love to sponsor a public-forum debate between both camps in chabad, i’d personally donate 10k to facilitate such an event!

J Stein Boston MA
Friend of chabad

182
May 17, 2009 8:18 am

the sicha of even hashesiya! you have been asked to adrees that repeadidly, also you avoided to adress the fact that Rabbi Yol Kohn has teished the Sicha of “even hashsiys” as straight forward negation of death!!!! do you dare question Rabbi Kahan’s authoritativeness to translate the Rebbe’s words as they were meant to be understood?! how about the numerous Rabbis in CH and Arround the world who dont dissagry with your “deffenisve” twists of simple pshat in the Rambam! re “MOLACH KVAR” vs being CURRENTLY min hachayim!? i will remain fear and not pile on any more questions before… Read more »

hi chayim #167 your teitsh is wrong!
May 17, 2009 7:59 am

the Rebbeh learns pshat in the Rambam far differantly than your teitsh

on the words in hilchos melochim of the Rambam, “im yaamod melech” the Rebbeh learns differently than you!!!!!!

lookup the haoros on this very subject where the Rebbeh crossed out the words “m’kan raya shtzorich lihiyos mi hachayim davka” and replaces that with, “SHEMOLACH KVAR”

once again your comment (while bright) are revealing of your considerable ignorance of the Rebbe’s sichos in general, and specifically re pshat in the Rambam hilchos melochim!

#160
May 17, 2009 7:59 am

Being that, according to you it’s all but semantics, I have a proposition:

In the wording of “yechi”, add the word “shebidoreinu” after the word “HaMoshiach”. Okay?

#174
May 17, 2009 7:47 am

My apologies.

#169
May 17, 2009 7:45 am

Again, you quote “thousands of sichos” without bringing a single one. It’s very nice to have the backing of vague, virtual, “thousands” of sichos, isn’t it?

Meanwhile, the grownups have been discussing sichos, see #108/#110, #160/#168. Bring any sicha on the subject, and I’ll show you your ignorance. That’s a promise.

#174
May 17, 2009 7:41 am

What the heck does that have to do with anything?! What Klal, what prat?? What in the world are you saying??

I have shown you that you don’t know how to read a simple Rashi, and then you claim there’s a precedent in Gemara for that?? That’s your counter-argument??

thanks to collive
May 17, 2009 7:28 am

geshmak and useful!

i printed the whole thing out!

To: #175 the answer to why such bitterness , simple psychology
May 17, 2009 7:27 am

dont be so naive! how would u feel if you were a shliach, a rabbi, a respected pontiff in your community who publicly denounced the moshiach-ist belief as “against everything the rebbeh said” then comes along the internet, and levels out the playing field , allowing all ppls access to information, that you once had to depend on your rabbi for, rabbis are becomming increasingly less powerful over the BT community, thanks primerily to the advent and popularity of the internet, why ask your rabbi, if you can get 90% of the worlds info online?! this is a new reality… Read more »

TO: # 56, READ UNTILL THE END FOR YOUR ANSWER
May 17, 2009 7:09 am

you wrote To # 31 “EVEN W/O the sichos, many non chabad Gedolim including Miller from Toronto were forced to admit (in public) that torah allows for moshiach min hameisim, and torah has many examples of Tzadikim who were thought to have died, but it was merely a test of emuna,” From Rabbi Miller of Toronto you can’t bring a valid proof. Since his interview with Mishpacha (when Belsky trashed Lubavitch), Miller privately started learning sichos and selected mamorim. He is close with select Lubavitchers and is under their hashpaha. He has the greatest esteem for the Chabad Rov of… Read more »

Book of Sichos on the Rambam
May 17, 2009 6:39 am

The book which the Rebbe personally distributed to over 9,000 people, containing Sichos on the Rambam Hilchis Melachim is available in translation on the web at http://sichosinenglish.org/books/i-await-his-coming-every-day/index.html

wow wee! soo many Comments!
May 17, 2009 6:08 am

is this like an all time record?!

neutral BT
May 17, 2009 5:53 am

i still have lots to learn re this subject, however can anyone in the anti camp please show me any backing of any sicha supportive of your view, i limit the sichos to the moste recent “shift in policy” as it were,
nun, nun alef, and nun beis, leading up to the situation we’r in now!

thanks in advance!

neutral BT

Reply to Chayim 167 & 172
May 17, 2009 4:56 am

Hi this is Sholom again, In 167 you gave one translation of Rashi and in 172 you give another which you say “seems to be” the correct one. Well obviously if you are unsure what Rashi means in your corrected version you’re certainly unsure about your first translation. Let’s analyse your first (leaving your caps) “If Moshiach WAS from those who have already died, then he WAS Daniel.” Now just taking the words themselves (without your spin with the caps) can simply mean that the gemora is saying that if Moshiach will be someone who has already died he will… Read more »

Reply to 168 Beis Rabbeinu Misquote Accusation
May 17, 2009 4:00 am

Hi Chaim, this is Sholom, before responding to your reply #167 I’m replying to #168 just to get that out of the way.

The fact that you didn’t even bother to look up the exact chapter & page even though I provided that for you is leading me to think that all your other droshos are not well thought out.

What YOU are quoting is in the middle of Os 5 (pg 470) but what I was quoting was in Os 6 (pg 472) where the Rebbe adds MOSHIACH TZIDKEINU leaving no room for people like you to make dreidlach.

Reply to 168 Beis Rabbeinu Misquote Accusation
May 17, 2009 3:47 am

Hi Chaim, this is Sholom, before responding to your reply #167 I’m replying to #168 just to get that out of the way.

The fact that you didn’t even bother to look up the exact chapter & page even though I provided that for you is leading me to think that all your other droshos are not well thought out.

What YOU are quoting is in the middle of Os 5 (pg 470) but what I was quoting was in Os 6 (pg 472) where the Rebbe adds MOSHIACH TZIDKEINU leaving no room for people like you to make dreidlach.

i grilled my shaliach this shabbat
May 17, 2009 3:28 am

my rabbi promissed to explain what he believes, he rfused to answer any of my questions directly, i have a meeting with him set for sunday,
can anyone recomend to me book of references?
in english or spanish? todah

why feel so antagonistic to the moshiach-ists?
May 17, 2009 3:14 am

most are normal balanced and productive contributers to society!
as for your loosing the debate (in this forum) suck it up! you win some you loose some, kabel ho-emes mimi sheomro” even if you think you are a bigger chossid, and he is a BT, take the message, ignore the messenger!

172 Rebuttal!
May 17, 2009 2:58 am

talmud introduces precedent!!!

i.e. one may extract the klal w/o retaining the prat!
THE HALACHIC AND TALMUDIC PROCESS IS NOT OPEN TO AMEI HAORETZ, do you have smicha?

152
May 17, 2009 2:34 am

162 i dont think you understood me correctly
i know 100 percent what a rebbe is, but i dont want to tell someone else because they might get the wrong impression. but now i see that someone before answered him already

sorry u missed your shluff! but at least you read this.. it must have been so interesting

Correction
May 16, 2009 10:33 pm

The correct translation of Rashi in Sanhedrin would seem to be:

“…if he would have been from those who have already died, he would have been Daniel.”

Obviously, my point still stands, if not stronger.

neutral BT
May 16, 2009 10:18 pm

i still have lots to learn re this subject, however can anyone in the anti camp please show me any backing of any sicha supportive of your view, i limit the sichos to the moste recent “shift in policy” as it were,
nun, nun alef, and nun beis, leading up to the situation we’r in now!

thanks in advance!

neutral BT

#160! thanks for the Homework
May 16, 2009 10:13 pm

i am an outsider to chabad, so thanks for presenting somewhat directions where to lookup

161 once again
May 16, 2009 10:07 pm

BH you can only succeed to mislead those readers who dont either know the sichos first hand these were your words: …..”those WERE TEFILOT!”…… in your transparent attempt to cast shaddow of doubt on 1000s of pages of “proclamations” and detailed analasys of rambam, yes the Rebbeh worked hard to spoon feed pshat to his chasiddim via volumes of numerous sichos and all you have to say to dismiss your “trust” in the “PRECISSION” of the Rebbe’s words is ….”those WERE TEFILOT!”…. are you by any chance the same “spokesman” who publicly tried to play-down the Rbee’s statements as: …….”his… Read more »

To #160
May 16, 2009 9:50 pm

As for your quote from “beis rabbeinu shebibovel”: I think you should examine the books in your library for accuracy, because you conveniently misquoted AGAIN. And here is the proper quote: [Beginning of paragraph] “Our Rebbe, the Nossi of the generation, is also Moshiach (redeemer of Yisroel) in the generation, … as it’s known that in every generation there is ‘one who is appropriate, due to his righteousness, to be the redeemer, and when the time comes, Hashem will be revealed to him and He will send him etc.’, and it is fitting to say that this is the Nossi… Read more »

Hi Sholom
May 16, 2009 9:19 pm

I’m Chayim, though I liked the anonymity better. My “hangup” about “is” and “will be” is clearly based in halacha. Unfortunately, you’re confusing the very similar concepts of “alive”, and “dead”. Here’s the Halacha: 1. A live person CAN be Moshiach. 2. A dead person CANNOT be Moshiach. Where do I get this from? Let’s see: The Rambam, who is the SINGLE Halachic authority in this matter (NOT the Abarbenel, or Rashi on Sanhedrin, etc.), says “if he did not succeed to the point [of building the Beis Hamikdash and gathering the Jews from all over] or he was killed,… Read more »

to 156 nice try!
May 16, 2009 6:47 pm

i like how you try to smuggle in the word “hergesh” as if its only a “chasidisheh-hergesh” not supported or based (in mekoros) beharerei kodesh!

these wewr your words:
…not Anti the Rebbeh being moshiach! i as a chossid have this hergesh

To all the people pretending to be me:
May 16, 2009 6:39 pm

To all the people pretending to be me:

Please write coherently, with proper sentence structure, spelling, and grammar.
You make me look bad.

#157
May 16, 2009 6:36 pm

Thank you once again for failing to bring any sicha of the Rebbe, only a “dreidel” you “heard” from someone, which you took completely out of context (this is proven just by the fact that the very person you’re getting this from doesn’t believe the words you say).

It’s fun to distort the Rebbe’s words to negate reality AND Halacha, isn’t it?

#154
May 16, 2009 6:33 pm

I ask you to back up your claim with proofs, yet you fail to do so, and instead rail on a completely different subject, about which you are as wrong as in the first. Well done.

#152
May 16, 2009 6:30 pm

So you claim to be a Chassid of the Rebbe, yet you don’t know what a Rebbe is??? For a normal person, that would be embarrassing.

It’s nice to know that you will continue to believe in mistaken and damaging values even after they’ve been proven wrong.

#150
May 16, 2009 6:26 pm

I don’t know what you’re on about. When the Rebbe explained Torah, he explained Torah. When the Rebbe said a Tefilah or plea for Moshiach to come right now, or be revealed here, or take us out of golus, or that we should be able to point and say here is Moshiach, or that the Rebbe will lead us to Moshiach, or that Miyad=Menachem, Yosef Yitzchak, and Dovber, or Mamosh with all it’s explanations, well, those WERE TEFILOT! Let me break it down simply for those of you who don’t understand hebrew: the words “yehi ratzon” mean “may it be… Read more »

Reply to 151
May 16, 2009 6:16 pm

Reply to 151 It’s quite difficult to have conversations without being able to know who you’re talking to. Well let me introduce myself, I’m Sholom and I’m same as #139 (and of course other #s). I assume you are the same as #144. Please when you respond type your name at the top of each post so we can talk to each other without getting confused. Ok, your hang-up with “IS” verses “WILL BE” has no basis and totally unfounded. As I told you before, you are getting caught up with semantics. When one says he IS Moshiach the intention… Read more »

REPLY TO: 156 good news!
May 16, 2009 5:47 pm

nice to see the update! the crazies dont do damage if the “normal” lubavitcher ppl and shluchim, were equiped and learned enough to defend the lubvitch belief rather than deny it, and then get caught red-handed denying it! what you and all the shluchim should have done is, to implement the Rebbe;s (tzav hashaa) of public classes in the subject of trah sources re moshich, those few shluchim who actually did that request from the Rebbeh, had enough time to properly educate thei constituency to where they themselves recognized the times were living in from the Torah-Sichos perspective, (as the… Read more »

yes i read it all shabbos!!
May 16, 2009 4:26 pm

about 3 x start to finish, i mist out on my shbbis shloof! but it was worth it!

149 yup your ignorant!!
May 16, 2009 4:25 pm

though i my self dont take a side, if you really knoe the sichos nun alef nun beis how then do you make the statement in post 149 that the rebbeh never addressed the issue of whether he is alive now (in the period before complete hisgalus, i’ll give you a hint if you are clueless which sicha adresse h pshat, (what is the Rebbeh saying) less then one year ago Reb Yoel had this to say re p’shat, “there is No mistaking what the Rebbeh is trying to convey, he’s trying to say that 3Tamuz was not possible! then… Read more »

You got me wrong
May 16, 2009 4:01 pm

i may be a so called “Anti”
what i’m against is the chillul H, and Lubavitch,!
not Anti the Rebbeh being moshiach! i as a chossid have this hergesh too
i think all soo called “anti” shluchim feel the same,
we wish that the small number of crazies did not hijack the moshiach cause, and then crash land it!

131 u must continue part 2
May 16, 2009 3:57 pm

waiting with bated breath!

144 re Kaballas Pnei Moshiach:
May 16, 2009 3:52 pm

again your comments reflect considerable ignorance on this matter too! lookup what the Rebbeh explains on this matter re Previous malchai yisroel! i think, you will have no other choice than to carve out an hour a day, for the next 2 or 3 years to play catch up on a very monumental period of the Rebbe’s sichos, the ones leading up to 27 Addar, the ones where he is coaxing and prepping his chasidim for the period starting 27 addar btw well before 27 addar, the Rebbeh turned up the gears (feverishly) re cranking out as many volumes of… Read more »

liking it
May 16, 2009 10:49 am

collive:
i like your titles
the first was entitled ‘rabbi klein rips messianics’ now its censored, tho not less ripping, to ‘rabbi klein talks to friend’
intresting
ah gutt voch!

a gut voch! resuming....
May 16, 2009 10:44 am

anyone care to answer 132? i dont think myself qualified to answer that. lets see: how many of you ppl actually printed this out and read it all on shabbos? and if u did, i wonder what your opinion is now after reading everything… i say: a meshichist who wavers after reading what rabbi klein and all antis write, and starts doubting that the rebbe is really moshiach, wasnt a meshichist in the begining. i was a meshichist and i still am a proud one!! i believe beemuna shelema that the rebbe shlita is moshiach tzidkenu! thank you (i forgot… Read more »

#147
May 15, 2009 1:41 pm

From the fact that you bring RK and RF’s “private” opinions, it’s apparent that you don’t know what we’re talking about. I firmly believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach and take us out of golus very soon. We’re not arguing about that. What we’re arguing is whether or not it’s acceptable to say the Rebbe is “melech hamoshiach” after gimmel tammuz. The Torah sources that say it’s unacceptable have already been brought: I don’t need add to the words of Rabbi Klein (world renowned posek). YOU are the one that has to bring sources to REFUTE his psak. Meanwhile,… Read more »

#146 i think he's a snag undercover
May 15, 2009 1:16 pm

the sichos paint a much priter picture than, you ignorant summery, your summery: that all the complex and nuonced teachings of the rebbeh, where he disectedthe rambam hilchos milochim in pain-staking detail, all in a futile effort to wishfully hope for moshiach!!” do you here yourself? are you sure you are one of our? or are you a clueless snag? who takeh knows not the precission of the Rebbe’s sichos especially those muga, how dissapointing soo much effort went into those sichos, in the rebbe’s attempt to “open our eyes” to the immenant reality, and … you have the ROYAL… Read more »

147 & 148
May 15, 2009 1:05 pm

My ignorance in the sichos??? What are you talking about? You brought me sichos, we spoke about the sichos! (#108/#110) You want to bring other sichos? Bring them, and we’ll talk about them. Don’t talk about bringing sichos, or not being able to argue sichos, or not knowing sichos, bring the sicha, and we’ll see what it says! Are you scared of what you might find? I’ve learned nun alef and nun bais (like a “model chassid, right?”) as well as tof shin yud and yud alef and many in between. Nowhere does it say that the Rebbe is alive,… Read more »

145
May 15, 2009 12:45 pm

a bunch of hakatshainik

nice try
to skirt the issue by hacking a kup about the FR and again the FR and the Rashab, very cleaver, i see right through it

you cant deal with the sichos head on!

143 &142 are the same person
May 15, 2009 12:41 pm

his words sound chassidish only to someone who knows even less sichos than he clearly does! the man sounds like your prototypical anti (who is probably also a very dedicated shliach with very good intentions) and is doing what these smart spin-docters do well! long on Rebbeh 40 year Rbebeh Rebbeh and Short on concrete arguments based on the Rebbe’s perfect words! re 143 & 142 i dont judge him for one second, i’m melamid zechus, that he is soo very bizzy running his chabad house, family, etc that he simply had never had the time and opportunity to read… Read more »

#139
May 15, 2009 12:41 pm

Let’s put things into perspective here:

You ignore reality because the Rebbe really really wanted Moshiach.

Reasonable.

My apologies
May 15, 2009 12:26 pm

I take back what I said about the FR saying dor hashvi’i. My source is someone else, I shouldn’t have repeated it without looking it up first.
My apologies.

Nevertheless, I don’t think we can ignore the fact that the Rebbe wasn’t the first one to announce that Moshiach is coming now (l’alter l’ge’ulah, anyone?), nor that this is the last generation of golus.
Even though #139 does want to ignore it…

#139
May 15, 2009 12:07 pm

As I said many times on this thread, the Rebbe NEVER said that the Frierdiker Rebbe IS Moshiach. You mention Reb YK? This is his Torah, not mine. The Rebbe said that the FR WILL BE Moshiach. The reason the Rebbe never said the FR IS Moshiach, is because it’s AGAINST HALACHA to say so on a person who’s NOT ALIVE. And for the third time, I ask you: Are you a greater Chassid than the Rebbe himself??? (Apparently yes, and not only that, you’ll go against the Rebbe’s own shita of who can be Moshiach, and then claim that… Read more »

#17
May 15, 2009 11:54 am

As #139 says, you don’t know what you’re talking about (unfortunately, because you sound like you do). The Frierdiker Rebbe doesn’t say that he was dor hashvi’i, I have no idea where you got that from.

However, he does say clearly (as did the Rebbe Rashab before him) that his was the last generation of golus, etc.

To #137
May 15, 2009 11:50 am

If it doesn’t make sense in the context, you need a Rebbe to apply it. It looks like #139 can tell you that straight out. Even if he may be a little mistaken, at least he properly understands the relationship between a Chassid and his Rebbe. You, however (nothing personal), will willingly say foolish things that the Rebbe never said or condoned, and then claim that the Rebbe approves!!!! Do you have any background whatsoever in a Chassid/Rebbe relationship, or were you introduced to “the Rebbe is Moshiach” before even know what a Rebbe is???? for 40+ years the Rebbe… Read more »

hey all of u
May 15, 2009 11:44 am

2go help your wife for shabbis

you’ll continue where u left off, right aftr havadalah

pleeeeeeeeeeas!#131
May 15, 2009 10:56 am

u must finish part 2 ASAP
i enjoyed your ability to compact ss much is such brief a format

to 117
May 15, 2009 10:53 am

Firstly, I’m familiar with the Rebbe Rashab saying it will be now and the FR similar, I don’t know what you mean he said dor hashvii but, like with everything, most importantly is the context in which things are said. Previous Rebbeim gave kitzin like the Alter Rebbe and the FR in 5702-3 with the Kriah V’hakdusha but then was silent, shturem was over! The Rebbe never gave kitzin, he said and repeated and “shturemed” and never missed an opportunity to emphasize that we are in the last moments of golus and that this is the last dor, and of… Read more »

i suggest print it out
May 15, 2009 10:41 am

spend shabbos trying to read up on the above
like me you’ll get hooked, and scared, and exited, and shape up while u still have a chance

#133
May 15, 2009 10:38 am

nichseh is the word NOT used re MOSHE (u am ho-oretz) its the word used (not by chasidim) but by the chazal re THE BODY OF MOSHIACH before the 3rd stage of hisgalus, you seem very raw and unfamiliar with the terminology of our holly sources, perhaps #131 was correct to classifie you as one who did not follow the Rebbe’s demand that all should persue this study diligently, he saw rite through you his suspicion was obviously right on target to send you to do the Rebbe’s request, and make a keveeus in the relevant Sichos kodesh, …then i… Read more »

#132
May 15, 2009 10:29 am

That is a very important question, and very relevant to this conversation. You see, those who believe the Rebbe is still “alive” and still “here” obviously don’t know what a Rebbe is. There are two perspectives: spiritual (from above) and physical (from below). Or, Hashem’s perspective and people’s perspective. Or the Rebbe’s perspective and Chassidim’s perspective, etc. From the spiritual perspective, a Rebbe is the source of life for the world. We, as physical people who have no tangible concept of spirituality, don’t know what this means, and therefore the concept is practically irrelevant (to us). Consequently, it’s okay to… Read more »

#132 wrong stop!
May 15, 2009 10:15 am

this ain’t the place to ask questions that the answer requires a full year of daily study in “seeagate” or “mayanot”

#132 ROSH, BENEY, YISROEL,
May 15, 2009 10:13 am

head of the collective jewish body!

source of life and direction for the body!

the head is the ikar mishkan higalus haneshomo (zohar)

so to the Rebbeh connects the soul of all to the Ultimate energy source

he also supplies chayus and emuna, making judaism warm real and alive!

for more details see v’ato t’tzaveh

#131
May 15, 2009 10:12 am

I appreciate the crash course, and it is indeed right before Shabbos.

1. Who applied this whole idea of “chozer v’nisgaleh”, the Rebbe or Chassidim? When did we first hear of this concept, before or after Gimmel Tammuz?
If the Rebbe didn’t tell us to apply a “new” concept, do we have the audacity to do so?

2. In any case, as Rav Klein succinctly points out, “Nichsa” does not mean “passed away”. In the original story of Moshe, he didn’t die, he went away. Big difference.

Simple Question
May 15, 2009 9:56 am

Whats a Rebbe?

#128 #128 #128 #128 hear is your well deserved answer! !!!!!!
May 15, 2009 9:47 am

BH since you sound open minded i think you deserve a crash course (that is by no means complete! its erev shabbos achar chatzois -pun intended) hear are some pertinent CHAZALs to help clear up the confusion: CHAZAL: Dor Moshiach’s neshamos are gilgulim of Dor Hamidbar. CHAZAL: Dor Acharon’s Emuna (b’divrei moshe) will be tested as was Dor Rishon’s fath CHAZAL: Geulas Moshiach will follow the same pattern as Geulas Mitzrayim. CHAZAL: Moshe Rabeinu proclaims the good news “pokod pokadety” CHAZAL: Moshe’s words fall on deaf ears! Most of bnei yisroel don’t believe moshe! Only a handful take his words… Read more »

Question To: #117 re end of you post
May 15, 2009 7:25 am

i’d like to see the quote inside, and context!

i’ll patiently wait for you to produce a source!

please dont tell me you heard it once or you think your grandfather was there,
if you have a source lets see it!

To #125
May 15, 2009 7:11 am

Nice try.

#122
May 15, 2009 7:09 am

If by “trust” you mean “go against Halacha”, then no. Re: Dor shvi’i: see end of #117. Re: shift: There absolutely was a shift of focus. Much greater than you ever realized… Jews, especially Lubavitchers, were never meant to live a single day (or year) over and over and over again. We’re supposed to move forward, constantly pushing and working towards bringing Moshiach. Unfortunately, a large percentage of Lubavitch got caught in a virtual time-freeze, and can’t seem to take a single step towards the actual ge’ulah… When you realize that everything you think you’re doing to bring Moshiach actually… Read more »

To #121
May 15, 2009 6:59 am

Very cute way to wheedle out of my point at the end of #117.

Besides which, you evidently do not know what “generation” in this context means. For example, when the Rebbe said “Nosi Doreinu”, he meant HIS Rebbe, namely the Frierdiker Rebbe. At the very same time, OUR “Nosi Doreinu” was the Rebbe himself. So, if you’d ask in 5740: “who is the Rebbe of the present generation?” The answer is: it depends who you ask.

All that notwithstanding, I’ll humor you, and answer clearly: The Rebbe is and will always be our Nossi.

fun shabbos reading
May 15, 2009 6:53 am

i’m printing this stuff out for some stimulating table reading this shabbat, i’m eating dinner at my rabbi’s tish

how dare u?! thanks to this blog
May 15, 2009 6:50 am

i must admit, that if not for reading this blog i would be naive to trust my ShliachRabbi (who made my family chozer biteshuvah) my Rabbi has said to me very many times that this belief is “heresy” and against torah!!, he even emailed me a link to this news story (he always sends us good links) this was probably not sent for the post commentary! or maybe he dident read the posts! or maybe he changed his paragigm! any ways i have left him a voicemail, i said i’m 41 years old, i am man enough to deal with… Read more »

To #114
May 15, 2009 6:49 am

“if you meant that someone who died cannot hold a chazaka of being moshiach, I understand you”

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant, as I said numerous times in this thread.

NICE GUYS..................BUT...........HUGE IGNORAMUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 15, 2009 6:36 am

TO ALL U ANTI-S READING A SICHA HEAR AND A SICHA THERE (HALEVAY U EVEN READ THE ENTIRE SICHA) 99.999999% OF YOUR QUESTION ARE BLATENTLY OUT OF IGNORANCE OF THE REBBE’S OWN WORDS!!! IF U TRULY WISH TO KNOW THE EMES FOR YOU SELF! (dont be scared! you can do what Manis Friedman does and keep it to yourself) YOU NEED ONLY TO DO WHAT A CHOSSID DOES: A) WHERE DOES A CHOSSID SEARCH FOR THE EMES (hint Sichos) B) WHAT KIND OF CHOSSID DOESN’T BECOME “BUKKY” (FLUENT) IN THE REBBE’S SICHOS! C) WHICH CHOSSID DOSENT FOLLOW THE REBBE’S REQUEST… Read more »

hey#121
May 15, 2009 6:21 am

u may ask #117 does he trust the rebbe’s statements re Peulosov and metzius melech Ha-moshiach behasgalus, which the rebbeh said was a new development not just cute vertelach! how abot Bossi Legani …”Dor Shvi-ee” (no room for confusion there!) …numerous statements proclaiming a clear overt shift in policy-reality visavi the historic unfolding of the initial stages of geula, there is a striking shift between the first thirty+years of the nesius (focussed on anticipating moshiach…) to the last few years (focussed on open-your-eyes – learn inyonei… see the process in motion, as it unfolds! yes the early-dark stages predicted in… Read more »

#117, #110, #95, #17 Will Not Answer a Straight Question
May 15, 2009 5:24 am

Since you don’t seem to be capable of answering a question directly, I’ll make it very simple and I only want a yes or no.

Is the Rebbe the Nosi of this generation we presently find ourselves in?

to: 119 BEST QUESTION EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
May 15, 2009 4:13 am

lookup the mekoros that indicat a test of emuna before the complete geula i.e. NIGLA, NICHSA, CHOIZER-VNIGLAH,

to be sure:
Niglah has clearly been via the recent sichos,
Nichsa (clearly the rebbeh fits the definition of “concelment”
Choizer v’nisgaleh AMEIN! ready or NOT here he comes!!!

to 110 who dosent know a single sicha....
May 15, 2009 2:32 am

of course the rebbe is moshiach of OUR GENERATION – and per the Rebbe’s NEVUAH that this is the last Dor of Galus, then the Rebbe is the FINAL MOSHIACH.
If you insist that Moshaich must come from the living – then the only coclusion you can have is either 1) the Rebbe is still alive. or 2) the Rebbe was a Navi Sheker (CH”V).
Pick your choice…

APM
May 15, 2009 2:04 am

my goodness 107, you actually deigned to comment! may i say, your very commenting is hipocrisy to the text of your comment. yechi adonenu morenu verabenu melech hamoshiach leolam vaed! btw whats so proud abt being a anti? r u so proud about it? if ur an anti that means you dont know yet who is moshiach. that should be depressing. i am a proud meshichist, i am proud that i have full belief that the rebbe shlita is melech hamoshiach hey everyone – Melech Moshiach – Menachem Mendel. Simple for those who dont know, Menachem Mendel is the rebbe… Read more »

To #113
May 14, 2009 6:36 pm

That “oft-repeated principle” is simple: Whenever Moshiach will come, the Nassi of that generation will be Melech Hamoshiach. The words of the Rebbe in that sicha are not connected to any person, and they are therefore timeless and apply in every generation (theoretically). You would like to think that the Rebbe was saying that Moshiach is actually here, and therefore the Rebbe, as Nassi of the present generation, is Moshiach. But unfortunately (and I hope this isn’t news to you), Moshiach is actually NOT here. And I sincerely hope that you won’t bring be “proofs” from sichos that Moshiach is… Read more »

To #112
May 14, 2009 5:54 pm

Do you also believe (as others do, vchu) that we are now in “aschalta dige’ulah”?

#80 Not clear
May 14, 2009 5:44 pm

#80
what’s you’re point that ein moshiach lyisroel? that were in a new dor and therefore the shluchim are now going to be moshiach? if so the Rambam should have said V’im yaamod Melochim

Halacha about Moshiach memaysaya
May 14, 2009 5:25 pm

Reply to 110
You say halacha says moshiach cannot be from the dead, there’s no such halacha, if you meant that someone who died cannot hold a chazaka of being moshiach, I understand you, but no halacha or Rambam says that one who gets up bitchias hameisim cannot be moshiach. Besides, the Rambam, halacha, is written for the practical world not for the world of nissim as such and writes for the worse case scenario of lo zochu, “Al yaaleh al hadaas” that moshiach must make nissim, but nevertheless the Rambam does not rule it out.

Reply to 110
May 14, 2009 5:06 pm

In a haste I wrote tzidkeinu instead of shebidoreinu, but there’s absolutely no difference as the Rebbe just the paragraph before established his oft-repeated principle that in every dor there is someone born from zera yehuda ..(vort from the Bartenura who’s obviously talking about the final Melech Hamoshiach) whom the Rebbe explains is the Nosi, the Yechida Haklalis of the dor. So I ask you if the Rebbe is telling the chassidim that the Nosi Doreinu is the Moshiach Shebidor and the only thing left for us to do is to be mikabel pnei Moshiach tzidkeinu, which Moshiach tzidkeinu is… Read more »

110 gehaked a gooteh chainik!
May 14, 2009 4:35 pm

you choped up the issue, but missed the main point,
the rebbe’s statements refering to nosy = moshiach, is HARDLY the bases of the rebbeh being melech hamoshiach!
who ever your talking to needs to read the sichos compiled in the kuntres dvar malchus!! which takes the concept of moshiach in our generation to a new THRESHOLD altogether, essentially that peulos of THE moshiach is alredy taking place, (not just in the future but) as a present and past fact in affect. k’pshutoi! … read the dvar malchus for your self!!!

BTW
May 14, 2009 1:24 pm

I just wanted to say that I have nothing against anyone here, I’m sure we’re all nice people.

If I say anything that comes across as harsh and/or offensive etc., it’s simply a result of the anonymity of both sides.

To #108
May 14, 2009 12:41 pm

Thank you for quoting the Sicha that specifically proves my point: Chayei Sara 5752: “the only Moshiach OF OUR GENERATION”. The Rebbe is clearly and unequivocally relating Moshiach to the generation. Obviously not THE Moshiach (“melech hamoshiach”), but Moshiach, just as every Rebbe is “the only Moshiach of their generation”. This is right there in the words, no pshetlach. Also, thank you for bringing the Sicha of Shabbos Vayeira 5752, which you CONVENIENTLY MISQUOTED, and here is the proper quote: “And according to the notification of my father in law, Nosi Doreinu, Moshiach SHEBIDOREINU…”, which again proves my point. This… Read more »

#101 and #108
May 14, 2009 12:20 pm

First problem: You evidently think the Rebbe was “lying” or “joking” or some other form of miscommunication whenever he mentioned the Frierdiker Rebbe, and he expected us to rely on what he told Avremel Shemtov once privately… For some reason, I believe that anything that comes from the Rebbe is emes, true on every level. So yeah, you’ll go into full pirushim how moshe shebidor and nishmaso bi etc., but bottom line, the Rebbe didn’t mean the words that he said. Unfortunately for you, you believe that the Rebbe is not completely emes on every level. That said, it should… Read more »

#17 #95 You're hacking a tcheinik
May 14, 2009 10:31 am

You’re getting caught up in semantics, the Rebbe established the rules of the game, nosi doreinu is moshiach tzidkeinu period. pick one or the other, if the rebbe is still nosi doreinu you got moshiach tzidkeinu, yes the kind the rambam’s talking about, the full fledged one. if you think we’re in a new generation, namely dor hashmini and the rebbe is no longer the manhig, or according to your hang-up, no longer the halachik manhig, then he’s no longer moshiach tzidkeinu and you got to look for a new nosi who will be moshiach for you and it is… Read more »

proud anti
May 14, 2009 10:29 am

105:
we dont lower ourselfs to reading or responding to silly posts! this is childish!

whats your point #104
May 14, 2009 10:23 am

what do u mean???

ANTI-S WAKE UP!
May 14, 2009 10:21 am

why no counter arguments (using sichos from the last 5, 10 years?!)
all we get from the anti-s are vague twisty attacks with little substance and backing! whats going on, is there only one side that is based in sources?! (puzzled)

100+102
May 14, 2009 10:14 am

why are you avoiding the issue at hand?
both of you! grow up, and face the music!

this blog is cool
May 14, 2009 10:09 am

i will be printing out this blog, to distribute it in a few places

good work all of you trolls

To 100
May 14, 2009 9:59 am

enough ….

genug shoin

for the same price how can they call the bobover rav by that name he was never in bobov.

the same with nearly all thew rebbes and rabanim that call theselves after their ancestors home towns

reply to #95
May 14, 2009 9:53 am

“v’hu go’aleinu”? you ask? very simple, the rebbeh since mem tes has updated the developements re the stages of hisgalus hamoshiach the rebbeh has openly annouced that the peulos and metzius of moshiach has already bee initiated! more so than just a potential moshiach which exists on stand-by in each generation! that means that the rebbeh took the next step by confirming his dor as the final one in galus and the first in geula, read it for yourself, it was not at all mistakable as a wish or fantacy but rather a proclamation! yes he said the process has… Read more »

"UNGVARER RAV"
May 14, 2009 9:51 am

He calls himself the Ungvarer Rav but he was never a Rov in Ungvar. This will give you an idea of his style.

hey 95
May 14, 2009 9:44 am

the rebbeh said a thousand times that “NISHMOSO BI” hope that reconciles your confusion!

TO: #93 smart question indeed!
May 14, 2009 9:41 am

did you know, that the rebbe himself explained the answer, to your q on a number of different occasions! in the early years he used the words “nishmaso bee” referring to the soul of the frierdikerebbeh into the rebbeh! in more recent years the rebbeh gave testimony for the 5teves trial, stating that often when he says “der nosy hador derebbeh der shver” he is ultimately reffering to himself! with those words (since he carries within himself the presence of the frierdikerrebbeh) btw this particular quote where the rebbeh clarifies what he means when he says that “the previous rebbeh… Read more »

#95
May 14, 2009 9:09 am

“vhu goaleinu” does’nt make sence in the “vnizkeh zen zich…” which talks about the futur.

I’m sure the Rebbe said that his FIL is Moshiach somehwere.

Lubavitch - approved by Rabbi Klein
May 14, 2009 8:57 am

Believing that the Rebbe will be Mashiach when he comes back, is consistent with Rabbi Klein’s view. Rabbi Klein himself goes to the Ohel. You can even be a “normal” Meshichist and not go against the Rabbi’s ruling. He suggests a new Rebbe, which will not happen, but we do need a more organized Lubavitch leadership. The long list of “meshichist’ Rabbis mentioned above, have themselves different opinions in the details – 1) what exactly happened on 3 Tamuz.; 2) what exactly means the a/the Rebbe is “alive’; 3) some of them are not intelectaully honest… ; 4) all of… Read more »

To #93
May 14, 2009 8:25 am

Did the Rebbe ever say “v’hu go’aleinu”? Wouldn’t that be more appropriate if he believed the Frierdiker Rebbe to be “melech hamoshiach”? But no, he said “v’hu yig’aleinu” – he WILL redeem us. Do you hear the difference? If you think about it, it’s patently ludicrous to think that the Rebbe ever said that the Frierdiker Rebbe IS Moshiach. (As a matter of fact, such a belief would necessarily contradict our own belief that the Rebbe himself is Moshiach. How do you explain that? How could we claim to know who Moshiach is better than the Rebbe?!?!) If we really… Read more »

Moshiach
May 14, 2009 8:12 am

The Rebbe never said the Frierdiker Rebbe IS Moshiach. But that he WILL be. There’s a big difference there. See comment #17.

to 92
May 14, 2009 7:52 am

if the rebbe isn’t moshiach RIGHT NOW — then you’re saying that my Rebbe is a NAVI SHEKER – because the Rebbe said that the Nasi Hador is Moshaich and that this is the last dor – 1+1=the Rebbe is Moshiach!

To #90
May 14, 2009 7:29 am

Every chassid believes his Rebbe will be Moshiach. Nevertheless, the only way this can happen for someone who passed away is if he gets up in techiya BEFORE Moshiach comes. Ergo, he’s not Moshiach before he gets up in that techiya.

The Rebbe taught us by example for 40+ years. Do you mirror that?

#80 Whatta waste!!
May 14, 2009 6:48 am

you sound like a very intelligent shliach, who cared enough to take the time to post your comments, thanks! you would make a great (normal) mishichist, you are sensible and eloquent! you manage to articulate a convincing message w/o providing anything concrete to bak-it-up if only you spent the next 2years 30 minutes p/day learning the sichos nun alef nun beis! you wold be the ultimate package-deal, the content-toichin of the right + the presentable-delivery and class of the left (aka pr spin) yet notice the bottom-line of concussion of your point is a TWIST that sounds good for a… Read more »

The Rebbe taught us by example after 10 shevat, Do you mirror that?
May 14, 2009 4:49 am

I am boggled by the extraordinary energy some put into this just in order to controvert a chasidishe hanachah which the Rebbe planted into us after the histalkus of the previous Rebbe (5710 Toras Menachem volume 1 pg 16) “Azoi vi es iz geven opgeleigt biz itzter azoi iz opgeleigt oichet itzter”. (Just as it was clear to us before the histalkus of the FR that he would take us out of this golus the same should be clear now too). (and as Reb Yoel explains in kovetz geulah umoshiach volume 4 pg 32 onwards, that the Rebbe did not… Read more »

to: 83 deprogramming
May 13, 2009 7:14 pm

a chossid’s program is chasidus and halacha,
his programmer is the rebbeh
one of the rebbe’s programs were “asey lecho rav” aka have a mashpia, the rebbeh will give him sayata d’shmaya

83 great question
May 13, 2009 7:11 pm

NOW its time for you to find out the answers to your very thoughtful questions! not in a post! but in the rebbe’s sichos, stop revealing your mehalech-hamachshava which speaks volumes about your emuna-issues, just your language is unsettling to any chosid whom trusts the rebbe’s words. these are your words, listen to the underlying hint of kfira
“in a few short years there will be a…”
i think you need a good farbrengen, and a serious ch.h”n

how interesting!
May 13, 2009 6:55 pm

the anti-s keep making defensive arguments and personal attacks, while the mishichists keep pointing to makor after makor after makor!
how interesting a pattern!

att anti-s: please deal with the torah sources for a change,
and please dont gimmy that shtus that all the Rabbis all of them are mis-interpreting the texts!

careful before you dismiss even the so called anti guru Reb Yoel K. who openly admits that the sichos are clear and simple supportive of Dor Acharon, and Nosi is moashiach and the Process is already in progress as of 5759

efen a sicha un batracht dain farbisin-keit!

To #82
May 13, 2009 6:43 pm

Here’s the translation from Hisvaaduyos (more accurate):

“I won’t bear any grudge if “Moshiach” will be translated in it’s simple form, Moshiach Tzidkeinu, since this is the truth – that the Nassi of a generation is Moshiach of that generation.”

#76
May 13, 2009 6:40 pm

i’m about 9 years younger than you!

To #82
May 13, 2009 6:36 pm

In Hisvaaduyot the end is different:

“…that is the truth – that the Nosi of a generation is Moshiach of that generation.”

deprograming
May 13, 2009 6:16 pm

Again I ask the same question

How could we have said that the rebbe was chezkas moashiach before gimel tamuz and chezkas moshiach after gmel tamuz?

ie min hachayim ie min hamaysim.

I do believe that in a few short years there will be a deprogramming program for a lot of lubavitchers and yes you will have to blame it on the “so called” mashpiem…

#17 & #57 Sicha Leil Simchas Torah 5746
May 13, 2009 6:10 pm

Here’s the Hanochos hatmimim version pg 397
“Nosi Doreinu, who is Moshiach , with all the pirushim in Moshiach, annointed, chosen, a leader and shepherd of Israel to the extent that Moshiach is actually the simple translation of Nosi, and I won’t bear any grudge if it will be translated that Nosi Doreinu is Moshiach Tzidkeinu , in its simple form, because that is truly the reality – that the Nosi of our generation was Moshiach in his generation and is Moshiach in our generation”

nutso #78
May 13, 2009 6:07 pm

wow 78 are you for real…?????
please stopppppppppppp
your not serious??
so if you dont belive teh rebbe is moshiach your a snag, athiest and anti?
all i can say is BORUCH HASEM FOR RABBI KLIEN

To #57
May 13, 2009 6:03 pm

That sicha is what, 6 pages? You take one line out of the 6 pages (not bothering to read any of the rest), and repeat it over and over? And the funny thing is, that that line isn’t even the main point of the sicha! Yet, the part of the sicha that is the Rebbe’s point, you conveniently ignore. The Rebbe says that EVERY SHLIACH IS MOSHIACH. I don’t think it could be clearer than in that sicha. But this shouldn’t come as a surprise. After all, the Rebbe put us in charge even before 27 Adar! And what does… Read more »

most imporatant
May 13, 2009 5:45 pm

Hashem yevorech es amo basholom

post 71 is a straw man
May 13, 2009 5:40 pm

you are either a clever mishichist!
or a foolish snag!
your arguments prove one thing to lubavitchers! that there is little difference between: Snags, Atheists, and Anti-s

i couldn’t have set it better my self! thanks

To #69
May 13, 2009 5:37 pm

It would seem that Rav Menashe himself took care of the “anti” arguments. (And he didn’t even mention “lo hitzliach ad koh…”)

Also, you may find that “anti”s don’t proselytize.

to #74
May 13, 2009 5:36 pm

please answer me
how old are u?

To #57
May 13, 2009 5:34 pm

1. That sicha says nothing about a passed person being Moshiach. You can draw any conclusion you like, but don’t say the sicha says something it doesn’t.

2. The Rebbe himself explained how it’s possible for a person who has passed to be Moshiach, I need not add anything to the Rebbe’s words (see #17).

re #71
May 13, 2009 4:59 pm

you prove to anyone with half a brain cell, that a true chossid of the rebbe will -in your own words- ” leads naturally to…” to the concussion in the rebbe’s words that he indeed is moshiach, and the process has already begun, and we are being tested in our “emunas tzadikim” and very soon we will see the fulfillment of the rebbe’s “perfect” words a true chossid is someone who sees his rebbe as Rosh Benei Yisroel, the Head of klal yisroel, connecting the soul life source with the rest of the body the body better listen and follow… Read more »

t s
May 13, 2009 4:52 pm

the COL article is ikar choser – what was the conversation?

and the guaranteed slew of comments pro and anti – my goodness. how many years is it now since 3 tammuz? how many years will it take for everyone to absorb that pre 3 tamuz and post 3 tamuz are two completely different lubavitches – one with a rebbe as described by the rebbe – thus truly lubavitch, and one designed by everyone else – thus thier own lubavitch.

#71
May 13, 2009 3:53 pm

if moshe rabeinu was able to make human errors, it follows that the very text of the torah, written by the hand of mosheh cant be considered the perfect word of G-d! it seems that your background is very anti Rebbe’s all together! you must reject the very underpinnings ALL chasidism, not just chabad! you are also blind to a basic tennat of jewish theology: that g-d places the soul of moshe rabeinu in each generation, as g-ds mouth piece!! “ispashtusa d’moshe b’chol doro v’ doro! and “shchina m’daberes m’toch grono” this is judaism 101 not just chabad! perhaps you… Read more »

the problem is idolatry
May 13, 2009 3:05 pm

worshoping his grave site

praying to him with Yihe adonenu…

saying that He is supper human and flawless.

indeed it is this kind of fundamentalism that directly gave rise to this heretical movement!
no sane human being will read a dead man’s text and “quote it as holly gospel” he was a nice man, but thats where it ends, to treat his statements as god’s words is idol-worship and leads naturally to the dangerous messianic movement, identical to j4j

#22 wow! good homework
May 13, 2009 2:54 pm

zechus horabim t’vorechicha!

i'm from lakewood, but open-minded, =neutral
May 13, 2009 2:53 pm

i may have learned in “meer” and “gates-head”, yet i’m not a “farbisineh-snag” i like to consider myself an independent thinker, with daas torah as my guide, that being said, i am fairly impressed with the thrust of the comments, since they are very much “torah-centered” in nature! if more “litvaks” were privy to the centrality of mekoros-hatorah in this discussion, i’m sure that the open-minded ones amongst us would be pleasantly surprised! btw i see little from the “anti camp” in the form of “torah-based” arguments!!!! puzzling and disturbing! where can i find the rebbe’s sichos on the rambam… Read more »

to: #60
May 13, 2009 1:25 pm

instead of hostility and name calling why not find yourself a trusted mashpia or clear thinking ben torah, who will agree to learn with you the sichos of nun aleph and nun beis, start to finish devided over a year or so, i have a feeling that you will stop attacking “mashpiyim” as hacking…..
it only sounds like hacking to one who has not fallowed the rebbe’s request to learn dilligentely inyonei geulah umoshiach including the rebbe’s sichos (which the rebbe directely included as part and parcel of the limud of moshiach and geulah)

this was a response to #61!!
May 13, 2009 12:56 pm

to #58 HE’S ON THE MONEY
U GOTTA GIVE IT TO HIM (me) mr CAPS HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! AT LEAST FOR A REBBE’S CHOSSID!

WHY ARE YOU SOO DISTURBED BY mr CAPS’s POSTS?
ARE THEY TOO REPETITIOUS?

OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE TUGGING AT YOUR HEART?! HM? HM? I WOUNDER?

(let me guess, u don’t yet have a kvius in inyonei moshiach… yet you have formed you pompous opinion and publisized it already to others, and perhaps you wish you had done your research before rendering your opinion

#63
May 13, 2009 12:49 pm

thaks for your list, impressive but incomplete
you should have included a more clear disclaimer that this is merely a fraction of the supportive mekoros, backing up “moshiach min hamesim” possobility

to #58 HE'S ON THE MONEY
May 13, 2009 12:42 pm

U GOTTA GIVE IT TO HIM (me) mr CAPS HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! AT LEAST FOR A REBBE’S CHOSSID!

WHY ARE YOU SOO DISTURBED BY mr CAPS’s POSTS?
ARE THEY TOO REPETITIOUS?

OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE TUGGING AT YOUR HEART?! HM? HM? I WOUNDER?

(let me guess, u don’t yet have a kvius in inyonei moshiach… yet you have formed you pompous opinion and publisized it already to others, and perhaps you wish you had done your research before rendering your opinion

For the sake of clarity
May 13, 2009 12:37 pm

With all due respect to Rav Menashe Klien–he was friends with my grandfather and personally gave him a copy of the 1st volume of Mishne Halachos–his understanding of some of the sources he cites is rather superficial; almost like reading a pasuk chumash without rashi. Let me give a few examples: On page 470 of the new volume of Mishne Halachos, he makes the case that the Rebbe never qualified for Chezkas Moshiach: (1) The Rebbe was not a Melech (king), (2) Moshiach has to be revealed in Eretz Yisroel, as the Rambam write in Igerres Teiman, (3) The nations… Read more »

#58 CAPS CAPS CAPS
May 13, 2009 12:32 pm

TAKE A DEEEEEEEEEEP BREATH AND RELAX!!
READ THE LAST TEN COMMENTS AND THEN TELL ME IF WE GOT THE POINT!
EVIDENTLY NOT!!!!

MORE PROOFS FROM TORAH SOURCES THAT MOSHIACH CAN BE FROM THE DEAD
May 13, 2009 12:05 pm

MORE PROOFS FROM TORAH SOURCES THAT MOSHIACH CAN BE FROM THE DEAD See the Pnei Moshe on the Yerushalmi, Brachos 17a, Perek 2 Mishnah 4 “If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased his name is Dovid.” The Pnei Moshe explains: “If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased, HE IS DOVID HIMSELF.” The same teaching appears again in the Midrash Rabba on Eicha, 1:51. (see below) Hey, has anyone put the Pnei Moshe in cheirem? I direct you now to the discussion of… Read more »

to the meshugene posting again and again:
May 13, 2009 11:48 am

all the comments with words in CAPS are wrriten by the same obssesive clutz
we got the point. loz up

to all you youngsters
May 13, 2009 11:19 am

GEVALT HASNT ANYONE OF YOU YOUNGSTEST
EVER QUESTIONED YOUR MASHPIA THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH AFTER “GIMEL TAMUZ”?????

Stop, stop. Please stop listening to those that ( and I know its an old phrase) but are “hacking you a chinik”

learn torah, learn the rebbes sichos, and become your own mashpias,h not to those that are hacking. and if you feel they are hacking… you know what? ….they are hacking
genug shoin

to Mr 52
May 13, 2009 11:02 am

before i answer you
please tell me the truth – TRUTH
how old are you>??

to 52
May 13, 2009 10:54 am

to 52
no

Reply to 53
May 13, 2009 10:03 am

Yes the sicha is very clear, the Nosi of the Dor is the Moshiach of the dor who will lead us into the Geuilah as Moshiach Tzidekeinu as the Rebbe CLEARLY stated “Ich ven nit hoben kein faribel az men vet teitchen Moshiach kipshuto, MOSHIACH TZIDKEINU!

But to you it obviously means that were in dor hashmini )-:

To # 31
May 13, 2009 10:01 am

“EVEN W/O the sichos, many non chabad Gedolim including Miller from Toronto were forced to admit (in public) that torah allows for moshiach min hameisim, and torah has many examples of Tzadikim who were thought to have died, but it was merely a test of emuna,” From Rabbi Miller of Toronto you can’t bring a valid proof. Since his interview with Mishpacha (when Belsky trashed Lubavitch), Miller privately started learning sichos and selected mamorim. He is close with select Lubavitchers and is under their hashpaha. He has the greatest esteem for the Chabad Rov of Toronto. However, he remains careful… Read more »