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Saturday, 22 Av, 5781
  |  July 31, 2021

More Shocking Than Leggings

An open letter to Rabbi Motty Gurary, Director of Bnos Menachem girls school in Crown Heights, over his new tznius rules. Full Story

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NEW INITIATIVE????
June 21, 2017 12:42 pm

THIS WAS WRITTEN NINETEEN YEARS AGO; Dear Shaindel, I received the letter that was sent from Bais Rivkah regarding the tznius or rather lack therof among our students. Clearly, this is a problem, a serious problem, in our community, and clearly it must be addressed. How to raise the level of observance of this particular mitzvah in Crown Heights is a daunting challenge…but a challenge that must be met. Addressing the issue in school, however, is much easier. Tznius, unlike negel vasser or chitas or mezuzah or birchas hamazon, is not a specific behavior that can be taught. Of course… Read more »

to 61
June 11, 2017 2:56 pm

its so tru i actually find it comical

Not halacha
June 11, 2017 2:43 pm

It doesn’t seem like a lubavitch school to add extra rules that arent halacha. Forget leggings and mini skirts,this is an attack on modest lubavich standard dress code. denim and long hair and nail polish has always been worn in modest way by very frum tsnius lubavitch woman.

Control the men too
June 11, 2017 2:06 am

They should set standards for both of the parents then. Why can’t​ the wife sign a letter on behalf of her husband making sure he doesn’t touch his beard or wear jeans? Why doesn’t he have to wear a white shirt every day or only black shoes? There comes a point where it is no longer about tznius and more about faking an image.

Im with R Gurary
June 11, 2017 12:41 am

Stand up for what is RIGHT!!!

One does not negate the other.
June 9, 2017 10:56 am

Don’t kill the messenger. Rabbi Gurary has spoken out on something that needed to be mentioned. Regardless if it is appropriate for a man to be giving women Tznius guidelines or not, the message is clear and correct. People are only getting angry and defensive because it is true. and for all those who say that the community should be worrying about “x” rather than “y” or “z” is wrong. One serious issue does not negate the other. If several issues need fixing, at least there is an attempt to sort it out. G-d willing, other issues will be sorted… Read more »

362
June 9, 2017 10:17 am

@ 370 ” Until then, we write a few comments, speak in hushed tones…among those we trust and we wait for our private geulah” May I ask, Why? This question isn’t of you in particular, but of the ‘silent majority’ you feel or with you. What leads you to believe that waiting for things to change by themselves will help? If you, or the OP, believe that the the of doing things doesn’t reflect a Torah perspective or God’s will, do you not have a moral imperative to try to do something? I guarantee you that this article will have… Read more »

to comment #341, re: baalei tshuvah at B.M.
June 9, 2017 12:28 am

For your clarification:There are many students at B.M. whose parents are proud baalei tshuvah. It’s simply not true that the administration seeks to exclude the children of baalei tshuvah from the student body.

Why can't a man comment on a woman's halacha?
June 9, 2017 12:10 am

I don’t understand why so many people feel that a woman should have written the letter from BM. Besides the obvious fact the halachos themselves have been expounded on, written about and paskened on by men, our rabbonim, since Har Sinai…. Doesn’t the very fact that it is the men who are most affected give them the right to address it? Is it just “their” issue and they should look away if they’re offended? They have no right to a voice? No option other than to keep their noses pressed to the ground when they walk the streets and remain… Read more »

Why does it have to come from a man?
June 8, 2017 9:19 pm

#24 Why does it have to come from a man? Because the women don’t seem to know the halochos nor do they speak out about the lack of tsnius. Denim as it is now is not a fine [aidel] fabric. It was originally a mix of wool and silk–halevai! Women, please get your act together. Why is it that if someone is walking around Crown Heights in tsnius dress, they come from out of town? Think about that one! Yes, it is the most blatant problem but not the only one. Alcohol in the Yeshivos is also a big one–a… Read more »

To those who say "Don't like these rules? Then leave!" ??
June 8, 2017 8:49 pm

If only there was a moderately well run mainstream girls school in Crown Heights – perhaps as much as 30% of the Bnos Menachem families and even more % of the bigger donors would be out the door. Alas, this doesn’t yet exist. But, you can be sure, there’s a silent majority waiting for that chance and they will run for the doors. Until then, we write a few comments, speak in hushed tones in the stores on Kingston or in other safe places among those we trust and we wait for our private geulah

It hit a raw nerve
June 8, 2017 6:24 pm

Just the fact that this letter has 367 posts show that it hit a raw nerve with so many people. Rightfully so. If we have such passionate feelings about tznius that shows that the yetzer hara is working overtime to get us to fail in this area and more. Never mind my opinion or all the posts. I just don’t know why or how any normal person would just push away all the brochos coming our way, if we behave and dress in a tznius manner. Can anyone claim they don’t need the brochos that is written you get when… Read more »

Reflects a troubling attitude
June 8, 2017 4:15 pm

While I completely agree with the author (and then some!), I think that it’s obvious that anyone who’d take issue with this letter wouldn’t want to enroll their daughter in a school run by someone with Rabbi Gurary’s attitude 😉

What I find even more troubling is that girls raised in this kind of environment would be ill-suited to doing the kind of ‘Kiruv’ work that the Lubavitch community has often been uniquely suited for.

Important Message
June 8, 2017 2:09 pm

To the author of this letter, thank you for speaking up and sharing your view on this matter. I just want to mention how horrified I am regarding the reaction people are having towards the woman who wrote this post. People claiming that “she must not dress tznius herself” or “her kids must be off the derech” or “she must be a liberal who supports abortion” is just absurd. Even if you don’t agree try to understand the point she is making as a woman and as a mother and don’t assume to know anything about her yiddishkeit or level… Read more »

The Usual Fallacy
June 8, 2017 2:07 am

Not only is this article halachically innacurate, but it contains a common logical fallacy that dominates most of these type of arguments. The Either/Or fallacy. Being careful about tznius in dress does not negate dealing with any of the other problems mentioned. If one really cares about them, they start an organization or become proactive. If they are just uncomfortble that lack of tznius is called out, they tell you to just keep moving and look elsewhere. Bullied kids? I have yet to see one of the complainers do anything if it wasn’t their kid. Also, do you call out… Read more »

362
June 7, 2017 11:18 pm

As a guy, I respect both sides of this issue. As a Jew with a background in education, I respect decorum and harmony in classrooms. As a person with heat sensitivity related to multiple sclerosis, I wonder how health accommodations are handled in such settings. having been raised reform with orthodox grandparents, and welcomed by Chabad emissaries, I appreciate choices, diversity, inclusion, and our tradition of ideally respectful debate.

The Rebbe
June 7, 2017 11:09 pm

Judging from the volume of responces – even the righteously indignant idiots-mostly men- this topic has hit a nerve. If the Rebbe could look at a woman straight in the eye in all her holiness, tzanua notwithstanding, then surely R Gourary could do the same. And was it not the Frierdike Rebbe who proclaimed that every Jewish child belonged in yeshiva, regardless of their back ground? How far this Gurari has sunk in such a short time. And why is a man the dean of a girl’s school? Get him off. The author of this article/letter would be a fine… Read more »

Not Lubavitch but Frum
June 7, 2017 9:31 pm

A few things: A private school has the right to dictate the dress code of their students, parents, have the choice whether to send their daughters to that school. I am not preaching anything but what I have noticed, and I live in Flatbush is as follows. The sheitels are like Lady Godiva, more provocative than any woman’s hair. Skirts are way above the knee and in the winter boots that are what one would call ubber se– are worn. The skirts are painted on. I have seen pant suits for women that are more modest..that not withstanding. Tznuis requires… Read more »

Dear Chaya Sara...
June 7, 2017 7:02 pm

…and you are going to do what about your feelings? Take it from me, the few who agree with you are going to do nothing. Good for penning your thoughts, but unless you do something it made not a whit of difference.

Should the school have no genius policy for its girls either?
June 7, 2017 6:53 pm

It doesn’t seem unreasonable to request that mothers adhere to certain standards if they are sending their daughters to be taught those same standards at school. Why should the school waste their time teaching something that the girls will not see reinforced at home? And is the administrator’s focus on that issue really coming at the expense of focusing on something else?

Questioner
June 7, 2017 5:30 pm

My questions regarding tznius are: 1. What is wrong with wearing denim? Denim skirts are not narrow pencil skirts; they are usually A-line or flared at hem. 2. What is wrong with wearing tights or leggings? They cover ore skin than socks or stockings. While I’ve seen some people wear leggings under tight mid-thigh high skirts, the majority of women wear them under mid-calf skirts. 3. Sheitel length – the longer the sheitel the more expensive it is. Today when many people are struggling financially how necessary is wearing a sheitel with hair dangling half way down one’s back? Shoulder… Read more »

Other problems don't mean we can't reclaim the treasure of tznius!
June 7, 2017 3:43 pm

Are you saying tznius can never be addressed because there are other problems? Your concern for those issues is admirable. But other problems don’t exclude the enormous importance and value of reclaiming the – sometimes lost- treasure of tznius.
Tznius is beautiful. Dignified. Gracious. Refined. Royal. Empowering. Confident.
Thank you Rabbi Gurary for your efforts. May Hashem bentch you and yours with gezunt, nachas and harchava.

kudos to the writer
June 7, 2017 2:58 pm

totally agree with this letter to Bnos M – all else is nonsense and needless chatter.

AGREED
June 7, 2017 1:37 pm

As students of a different school we applaud rabbi guarary for standing up for this cause and instilling in both the student and parent body an awareness of the importance of tznius. How we wish our school would do the same!! Thanks for standing up for what she right, you have our full support!!
Ps: Its the complete right of the man to remind us how to dress, check it out…

Conflicted
June 7, 2017 12:12 pm

I’m incredibly conflicted about this issue. In my community our high school has had a serious issue with dress code. The girls consistently choose to not dress according to the code. It’s a source of great frustration for the administration – even with uniforms. It’s confounding. Then, one of the reasons for the lack of respect for school policy became clear to me. At school events, like sports, literary presentations, barbecues, open houses, the mothers of these girls come to the programs dressed in a completely un-tzanua way. Extremely short skirts, very short sleeves (almost none), low cut shirts –… Read more »

To #332
June 7, 2017 11:55 am

Husband’s signature is a good idea. Many husbands unfortunately encourage lack of tznius. Both need to encourage each other.

Keep it up!
June 7, 2017 10:17 am

Kol Hakavod! I stand with you

L'Chaim To all!!!
June 7, 2017 10:15 am

I love this…

From An Outsider's Perspective
June 7, 2017 10:11 am

As someone who is in CH all the time for simchos, I have to question the representation of the adults dressing in what the overall Chabad community perceives to be ‘tznius’. “How can you tell if that woman walking toward you is Chabad or not Jewish? If her dress is skin-tight, she’s Chabad.” I see this almost every day. I also see and hear the adults, and even the children swearing. The way we talk is how others (read: the rest of the world) hear us. How can we claim to be of purity when, while we watch what goes… Read more »

former bnos menachem parent.
June 7, 2017 8:37 am

would be interesting how the girls from bnos menachem will view tznius as adults compared to girls from other chabad schools that are able to emphasize other areas of yiddishkeit or address tznius in a more positive way. a girl that sees her mother made to feel uncomfortable in her own community will not likely grow up with a fond association with dressing tznius. kids pick up on this stuff so easily.

Thank you for your light
June 7, 2017 8:37 am

as a woman who grew up going to Bnos Bais Yaakov I’ve been waiting years for someone to have the courage to share these exact thoughts. Let the women be involved in speaking on behalf of their own bodies and let modesty not be tunnel visioned to a woman’s garb and a sense of fear. For all the negative pushback you get with this post I want to tell you that the light you just shared will ultimately prevail. Thank you for bravery and your wisdom.
I am so thankful and certain of your purity of intent.

Bnos Menachem Student
June 7, 2017 8:36 am

im honestly shocked and appalled that adults are arguing over something like this. I go to Bnos Menachem, and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE RULES! As a student attending a school, i respect and follow their rules to the best of my ability, and anyone who has a problem with these tznius rules and policies should keep it to themselves. The Tznus policies he implemented are for our own benefit. We understand that they want our parents to be role models for us, and there is nothing wrong with that. Rabbi Gurari is doing this because he cares, and… Read more »

Thank you Rabbi Gurary
June 7, 2017 8:19 am

IThis is exactly what the world needs. Raising the standards of Chabad. THANK YOU

Shliach in OZ
June 7, 2017 8:06 am

Well done Rabbi Gurarie!
Enough of this hefkerkeit when some people think they can just ignore the Rebbe’s instructions (as well as clear halochos)
We are shluchim in Australia and unfortunately we have to explain to our children that not everything they see in CH is what the Rebbe is expecting of us as chassidim.

Thank you for your beautiful response
June 7, 2017 7:02 am

I didnt read his letter because i feel its pointless and ill get upset for nothing. Your letter is well written, thank you for doing that!
As a BT i became a lubavitcher because of the Rebbes love for his fellow Jew and the amazing education i received with Rabbi Majesky and the rest of the teachers in the school. However, unfortunately i dont see the same warmth and love from other lubavitchers and its really undortunate because for pp who pretend doing the Rebbes work they do the exact opposite…and then they wander why so many FFB fry out!

Mentally /emotional health versus polish
June 7, 2017 6:55 am

If only he was as concerned about the mental and emotional needs of his students, as much as he obsessed over nail polish.
The school would be in better shape.

The outside appearance is a reflection of the inside.
Do you ever speak to the girls about why they dress the way they do?Do you care about issues like self esteem?
Do they have symposiums about health and mental wellbeing?
Are they encouraged to feel good inside?
Think about it.

To 328
June 7, 2017 6:49 am

I agree.
Let’s stick to basics first before we cut our wigs.
Elbows,knees,etc

It's not just about you
June 7, 2017 6:35 am

Just an observation, but if every other ehrliche frum society (chassidishe or otherwise) has the same standards in tznius as mentioned in Rabbi Gurary’s letter, then maybe there IS a problem here, and it’s not a matter of “if you want to be Satmar or Belz” like some posters claim. It’s very nice to be worried about bullying and loshon hara and poverty, but how about your empathy towards your fellow Lubavitchers? When you dress in a way that is very attractive and attracting (not even talking about basic halachic guidelines like covering knees and elbows), you put a lot… Read more »

Ouch.
June 7, 2017 6:11 am

My heart hurts.
I’ve left crown heights a long time ago and feel increasingly healthier as a person. Judiasm is an all encompassing religion. Especially a religion of respect and the heart. The comments aren’t making me impressed one bit.
Please think about what your about to write or say before you say it. Would the leaders of Lubavitch write it?or approve it being publicized?
No point is worth it. Not Tznius. Not anything.

Baalei tshuva children not allowed in this school?
June 7, 2017 5:11 am

Baalei tshuva wont have parents who will adhere to rabbi guraris rules so they will be excluded???? I became a baalat tshuva at age 12. I would have been excluded from the school

Re Tzach list
June 7, 2017 4:21 am

Not every family or individual is in the Tzach list. I’m not, & I’m very much a real person. 🙂

regarding leggings
June 7, 2017 4:13 am

I am an old lady with sciatica down my leg all the way into my toes, in fact the toes have the worst pain, and for some unknown reason tights exacerbate this. In the winter I wear leggings with socks, no skin is visible, I do not see why anyone should have a problem with this.

Concerned
June 7, 2017 4:13 am

Thank you for speaking up.
Do you think the school is having issues that this letter is trying to cover up?
What prompted this school to publish this letter?

POV of comments is very revealing
June 7, 2017 4:10 am

Most of the comments attacking the school are responding from the (incredibly defensive) POV of the person being asked to dress in a tsniusdikeh manner. Almost nobody recognized that the point of making rules like this for the mothers is that the families who DO stress tsnius want their daughters’ school to reinforce what they teach at home… if the mothers of their classmates come to pick them up with bare legs, short skirts, etc, this will at a minimum confuse the girls, so-and-so’s mommy wears that, why shouldn’t I also.

thank you Mrs waldman
June 7, 2017 2:21 am

I too applaud your honesty.
this man (like most frum people today) are imposing the WRONG solution to a REAL problem.
tznius and the emptiness of our young (and their parents..) is a serious problem, but you dont fix it from the outside, rather fill in the emptiness that provokes them to need to show their body in order to find a place in society!

Should we start with פנימיות or חיצוניות when it comes to Tznius?
June 7, 2017 1:45 am

The known ספר החינוך states may times (he is from the reshonim & there is no known opposing opinion) “אדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו” which means your outward behavior will affect your פנימיות and shouldn’t wait for your פנימיות to be in order first. So “אחרי הפעולות נמשכים הלבבות” is the way to go. Keep in mind that Judaisim isn’t an open religion with the locals having their input but rather is to be kept the way it was passed down. For the others there is already Reform. Why reinvent the wheel?

A Boro Parker
June 7, 2017 1:28 am

I recall being very close to Lubavitch years ago when I was 18-20 years old. What held me back from making the ultimate dive & become a tomim was that the preaching didn’t match the products produced primarily as far as Tznius goes. I was given all types of explanations that people fall through & some are baalei teshuva etc etc. For me the bottom line was whether it has become a שיטה by some in Lubavitch or not. To me that is the difference between orthodox & reform. Orthodox will also talk loshon hora etc but it hasn’t become… Read more »

Inspire, don't impose
June 7, 2017 1:10 am

There are two terrible scourges which face our communities. One is a lack of tzniut and the other is an obsession with it. We need to encourage and inspire each other and ourselves to connect to the beauty and dignity of tznius, which is for everyone in the community, not just women. It is so much more than what one wears. Tznius is about emphasizing our inner qualities rather than our outer ones. Over emphasis (obsession) with the details of how women and girls dress, forcing “stricter community standards”, forcing girls out of a school because of how their mother… Read more »

Curious
June 7, 2017 1:01 am

Even within such a regulated community, people should be able to express themselves, even within tzinius standards. I’m not sure why having a slightly longer shaitel is such a horrible thing. I don’t see how that impedes upon one’s ability to perform other mitzvot. Another question I have for those more familiar with this community is what other options for education, if any, are available for these children? If none are, why are these children being rejected over a few inches of hair? Wouldn’t this possibly lead them to resent this community and leave it as they become adults? I… Read more »

i checked tzachlist-no chaya sara waldman there
June 7, 2017 1:00 am

no chaya sara waldman there
do you live in crown heights?

A resident of Lakewood
June 7, 2017 12:43 am

I am a Lubavitcher who lives in Lakewood. Of all questions I encounter against matters they don’t understand about chabad…one that I can’t answer, is the matzav of tznius that is totally out of bounds ….which are normative basics in other frum communities……Does Me Waldman know how Rabbonim on other kehhillos crack down on Pritzus???!!!!
Let her verify before she attacks Rabbi Gurary!!!

Don't people look at what they wrote???
June 7, 2017 12:19 am

This is a non sequitur, but I have to laugh at the illiteracy of some posts. Why don’t you review what you write before clicking “post”? My favorite so far is 322 “if you do not know how to edjucation kids….” From what I understand, B’nos Menachem graduates are generally quite literate. I suggest all of you who don’t understand why some words have a squiggly red line underneath take a basic course in WORD.

my take
June 6, 2017 11:58 pm

YES, i do think that rabbi gurary perhaps went a little too far with his rule of requirements, but no, i do not at all agree with this letter. tznius is a huge issue. no question about it. and im sorry that the drugs or extravagant bar mitzvahs is also a huge issue, but that doesnt take away from the fact that THIS TOO is an issue that must be dealt with! Your argument there literally makes no sense. say, your washing machine broke. NO WAY are we gonna try to fix it because, after all, there is lots of… Read more »

women for women
June 6, 2017 11:45 pm

i applaud you, mrs.waldman, for writing this letter! you SPECTACULARLY answered his letter, dealt with every single issue and i am incredibly happy to see a woman standing up for other women being shamed and forced to behave a certain way by a man. you are courageous for signing your name, and i am so so happy and RELIEVED to see that there are still sensible people left in this community, people like you who are shocked at the outright ignorance, misogyny, and misplaced values that his letter smacks of. please please keep fighting the good fight, spitting the TRUTH,… Read more »

Hakoras Hatov
June 6, 2017 11:44 pm

The Gurary’s have been involved in Ten Yad for many, many years. To pick at Rabbi Gurary’s ahavas yisroel (or worse yet, to make fun of the Ten Yad auction booklet), is a total kfui tova even if you haven’t received their help for your wedding. Your cousin received more help from them than from you. Your friends who had no help from their parents got more help from Ten Yad than from you. Most people commenting (myself included) will not accomplish in their entire lifetime even a small fraction of the chessed that they have accomplished. With humility and… Read more »

Tznius matters
June 6, 2017 11:38 pm

We should enforce the highest levels of Tznius at all Chabad houses, especially Campus Chabad houses. It is appalling that young women dressed immodestly are permitted to enter these Shules and are praised for coming there.

A number of comments
June 6, 2017 11:28 pm

#108: That’s not fair. His relatives aren’t running the school and he’s not responsible for their choices. #196: My husband indeed has a say in what our daughters wear–and they respect him for caring about it, too. It is vitally important for fathers to be aware of how their daughters dress! In fact, when a father emphasizes the importance of proper dress it makes more of an impact than if it’s coming from the mother (even if she herself is a paragon of Tznius)! #218: I am so sorry for your pain. But just to present a broader view, is… Read more »

Thank you
June 6, 2017 11:28 pm

For this letter
As a girl growing up it always disgusted me when men spoke to us about our tznies
It’s just not the way to encourage someone.
Plus the humiliation
Straight up body shaming

Chabad ?
June 6, 2017 11:20 pm

Is this our way? If a non drum girl would want to go to gurary’s school should he let her in? No, and yet we have chabad houses and send 12 year old boys to manhattan to do mivtzoin and bring ppl back to yidhishkeit? Gurary’s letter is like punching someone who is in the middle of a fight screaming ahavas yisroel. If one person goes off the way because of this letter would the rebbe be proud of that ? Why not do things the way the rebbe did, with love. Talking about women tzniuse is the easy way… Read more »

312 there are different levels in tznius
June 6, 2017 11:03 pm

Like with everything in yiddishkeit, there are many levels. Example: There’s shaving a beard with a razor, trimming, plucking and not touching at all. There are many fine Jews who shave and that’s okay for them based on what they were taught. We have clear piskei dinim from Tzemach tzedek etc and know what is right for us. As chassidim, we strive to do more than we did yesterday. There were very fine American (and Russian too) chassidim who shaved earlier in life and then decided to upgrade later in life. If the school had a certain tznius standards in… Read more »

To all those people saying...
June 6, 2017 10:42 pm

To all those people saying things like “only because you don’t have high standards of Tznnius” or “So don’t send your daughters there if you can’t keep to these rules”… Who even said she meant that she is unable to abide by these rules, and that this is the reason shes so upset by this letter (Even if that is the case, who said that???) She is simply saying that to enforce these rules on mothers who are worrying about more important things such as tuition or other of tehir childrens school related things shouldnt have to be FORCED to… Read more »

Dear Rabbi Gurary
June 6, 2017 10:41 pm

I am so proud to be a part of a school that puts their foot down when it’s needed. The Tznius standards my family has gained is wonderful! I thank you for giving our family these important values.
So sorry we’re in such a terrible golus, where it’s so black that our own people are blinded to the truth.

For those of you that don’t agree with these standards. Don’t send your children to this school.

to 277
June 6, 2017 10:38 pm

I completely agree with you. I actaully have to go out of ch to buy tznius clothes. i recently bought a dress on kingston, after a couple times wearing it, notices part of the sleeve was sheer. was $80 and only managed to wear it twice.complete waste. never shopping on kingston again. bli neder

Finally!
June 6, 2017 10:35 pm

Finally someone with the logic and bravery to speak out against this horrific form of abuse and inappropriate obsession with women’s dress. I grew up in this type of oppressive environment, where my teachers got away with vile abuse but the only focus was on derech eretz and making sure we had no tv and did not go to movies. Get a grip! This is not Judaism as Hashem wants it! I thank you for coming forward.

To Rabbi Gurary
June 6, 2017 10:29 pm

i am so proud to be a Bnos Menachem parent,!!! Our biggest problem today is the lack of leadership, no one has the right to tell anyone what to do, what’s right and what’s wrong. and that’s why we have so many issues (both spiritually and physically) in our community. Our only hope is the schools, they can step in and fill that void, they can put their foot down and say to the parents “we stand for something” and we need to be on the same page with our standards in Yidishkeit. it is pathetic when parents live a… Read more »

Kol hakovod rabbi gurary
June 6, 2017 10:17 pm

To all of you who think he said it for himself. You are wrong. He doesn’t care what people wear, he’s not into that but he runs a school and he wants that thebmothers should be dugma chaya and yes wearing leggings, hot red nail polish, long shaitels etc is very provocative and he wants a certain standard for his school. Ch has become a disaster with the tznius, the community should be embarrassed with the amount of Lubavitcher woman that walk the streets of ch looking like modern orthodox. We are the rebbes children. If the Rebbe were alive,… Read more »

My vote!
June 6, 2017 10:15 pm

Having taught at BM for a number of years, I have to say that I appreciate that the school is setting these standards. I guess to put it simply, if you’re paying for this type of education for your daughter, then you should live by the lifestyle too and dress according to Torah. It shouldn’t be the biggest deal. And if it’s really too hard for you, then this school isn’t a good fit for your family. Everyone’s got to be on the same page, if you don’t support what the school teaches and values dearly, then your child shouldn’t… Read more »

dear sara
June 6, 2017 10:11 pm

Please take your article to the Rebbe and see if you’re not embarrassed to give such a thing in to the Rebbe.

304 you are right in that sense
June 6, 2017 10:03 pm

it is a strategy that has nothing to do with tznius (nail polish, really?) but rather a way to deny education to girls without perfect parents that will do whatever it takes to comply and win. Now one group will be able to say they are more special and perfect than everyone else.

To number 198
June 6, 2017 9:51 pm

Actually I don’t see it that way. The responses are defending the choices a school made in setting forth stringent policies in regard to tznius and their views. The letter writes seems to feel that matters of tznius should be below our radar and not a topic of concern that educators should seek to improve. Rather other issues should be at the forefront of their policy making.The previous responseders,Iike myself, are validating the importance of tznius as being an important part of orthodoxy! Just as not telling lashna Hara, being kind, and not being frivolously outlandish with how we celebrate… Read more »

The rebbe is on rabbi gourari's side and of course HASHEM is!
June 6, 2017 9:50 pm

In a well known published yechidus 48 years ago the rebbe clearly stressed that skirts must hang 10 centimeters below the bottom of the knee( thats 4 inches) yes the details are important like shemura matzoh etc.(and the rebbe was clearly a man commenting about Halachos for women!) Those who complain about inches like who cares should add an inch to their noses and see if inches don’t matter.

MOSES
June 6, 2017 9:46 pm

WHILE THE COMMENTS MAY BE VALID, HAVE WE COME TO THE POINT WHERE ANYONE TRYING TO SOLVE ONE PROBLEM MUST STOP UNTIL HE/.SHE CAN SOLVE ALL OTHER PROBLEMS AS WELL ??? AND, IF NOT HE./SHE SHOULD NOT SOLVE ANY??? IS THE PERFECT THE ENEMY OF THE GOOD? PLEASE LADY CUT IT OUT. HELP SOMEONE IF YOU CAN AND WANT TO BUT DO NOT TRY TO CORRECT SOMEONE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING GOOD IN HIS DALED AMOS BY INVOKING ALL THE “OTHER” ISSUES THAT REMAIN UNSOLVED. MAYBE YOU SHOULD PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH AND TRY TO HELP THE TZNIUS ISSUE WITH… Read more »

to 69 DITTO
June 6, 2017 9:39 pm

i had my girls at bnos menachem . the admin were pure evil to us regarding money, the hypocrisy on haskofa, the coldness we felt by all , amongst other integral issues there , this made me bitter , misrable , lonely, and my otherwise meticulous tznius high standard suffered . eventually we go out and moved away to a wonderful place where we live amongst all different types of caring jews , chassidish , litvish , lubavitch , modern orthodox , the care , friendship , warmth we have from every single person we come across has made me… Read more »

Parents beware
June 6, 2017 9:06 pm

Next year:
He’s going to implement the Rebbe’s hora’os regarding limudei chol (minimal, after 9 yrs old, after 12 yrs old etc. like Beis Chaya Mushka) and then the school will be able to be proud of both their yiddishkeit (tznius, middos, metchlichkeit etc.) and chassidishkeit (limudei kodesh, hiskashrus etc.)

Sara very nice !!
June 6, 2017 9:05 pm

One that dosnt have the slightest idea of accountability and responsibility, by cowardly hiding her/his name has coments to make about a man who gave up his life for the community!!

There isn’t a day that goes by without a heavy Decision being made weather regarding an individual child or financially to keep the teachers on the pay roll, a man who puts his money were his mouth is, and some no name coward who cant even put a name were his mouth is !? has what to say in such a disrespectful manner !?

LA Morah
June 6, 2017 9:05 pm

Whatever your excuse,please be aware that the horrific lack of tznius today in Lubavitch bashmears and shames the Rebbe. Deal with it.

R' Gurarie is a genius in his long-term strategy for the school
June 6, 2017 9:02 pm

He waited until the school was packed to capacity with an enormous waiting list before raising the standards of the school. He will now “lose” (i.e. shed) the non-compliant families with the lower standards and replace them with the families with higher standards that are begging to come in. – A hopefully future parent (begging to get my daughter in – especially after seeing this courageous letter). Side comment: I think “Mrs. Waldman” is actually Bnos Menachem’s publicist who would never have been able to make the school’s case as well as the public was able to in these 300+… Read more »

AGree with this article!
June 6, 2017 8:56 pm

Although it isn’t painful to see the lack of tznius, is it really our biggest problem? Wanting to dress a certain way come from feeling within. We need to focus on larger things like ahavas Yisroel, respect for elders, manners, the real meaning of chassidus and Tanya, a man putting refilling on everyday, davening. Hopefully by Doing that with love and in a fun way, with Hashems help, more trivial things like an elbow being covered will come and will be done lovingly. It’s very easy to blame things on women and tznius since it’s the most visible things to… Read more »

Chani Vogel
June 6, 2017 8:49 pm

No, I am not sending my daughter to Bnos Menachem. Yes Rabbi Gurary spends hours of his time on a school for girls trying to make sure that they are embued with chassidishkiet. Dear Mrs Waldman (or whatever your name really is) In a democracy like America, the owner of the private school makes the rules. You dont like, dont send. But lets talk about this for a minute. Rabbi Gurary has put his money where his mouth is. What have you done? Aside from using a pseudonym, of course. Rabbi Gurary put hours and time and effort into a… Read more »

Chabad "Burka"
June 6, 2017 8:45 pm

Tznius is a major issue. However The Chabad “Burka” is not the answer. In the 80’s we had the Tznius police….who ‘informed’ on girls outside of school if they deviated from dress. Out of town you have boarders who if they ask anyone of the opposite sex for directions could get expelled from School, merely on someone;s say so. Don’t push away the families that want to attend your school by imposing restrictive codes that were not even implemented in the 50’s!

confused
June 6, 2017 8:44 pm

I dont see how the author’s letter helps anything. why does one thing preclude the other? focusing on tznius is one thing. And of course one has to focus on loshon hara and all other matters mentioned, plus many more not mentioned. There is nothing wrong to try to raise standards of tznius. People who feel threatened usually have an issue with those things. But in reality it is not wrong. It may not work the way expected but it is okay to try. Nowadays one of the biggest challenges we face is tznius and that is why it meets… Read more »

minchag hamacom
June 6, 2017 8:42 pm

Crown heights is a diverse community. It is appropriate to expect halachic standards for tznious. However to favor one look over another is a bit much. Expecting exact specifications for shaitel length, nail polish color is strange. Tznious is a whole affect, it’s up to every woman to choose a style that isn’t too revealing or calling too much attention to herself and to present herself in a dignified manner. So for example there is a halachic basis to objecting to wearing leggings if the ankle is not covered but if the person wears socks with leggings, it is not… Read more »

EDUCATION IS KEY!!
June 6, 2017 8:41 pm

What we need is ECUCATION!! Not just Halachos. Kabalas Ol is important, but girls need to be taught something deep that they’ll internalize. Like self respect and an awareness of Hashem. And tznius should be taught with love, not harshness. Every Jew has a soul, and the only reason why a Jew would sin is because he has a yetzer hara. His essence is inherently good, it’s eloikus. Please treat your fellow Jews with ahavas yisroel. There are a lot of bad things online, etc, and sometimes it is hard not to be affected. It is true that we should… Read more »

dear #10
June 6, 2017 8:37 pm

don’t talk like that about someone you clearly don’t know, not everyone can handle such a full school like beis rivkah

Kol Hakovod for setting standards
June 6, 2017 8:34 pm

Dear writer, You are clearly pained with a lot of issues you recognize are facing this community. Do something about one at least. That’s what Rabbi Gurary’s doing! Kol Hakovod to him. Interestingly enough, even the secular world has had standards to be a teacher. Although its about 100 years old, someone with values at that time had expectations of teachers. Here it is: Rules for Teachers – 1915 1. You will not marry during the term of your contract. 2. You are not to keep company with men. 3. You must be home between the hours of 8 PM… Read more »

Amerika iz nicht andersh
June 6, 2017 8:33 pm

This whole letter is nisht geshtoigen und night gefloigen,,, PURE JEALOUSY……. RABBI MOTTY GOURARIE,,,, DID NOT BUILD THIS SCHOOL FOR PERSONAL KOVID OR ANY PERSONAL GAIN WHATSOEVER,,,,ONLY AND ONLY FOR ONE REASON ONLY BECAUSE HE CARES ABOUT THE LEVELS TO WHICH LUBAVITCH AS SUNK TO,,,,, HE IS NOT A BATLAN,,,,BUT A BUSINESSMAN THAT DOES A WORLD OF GOOD WHEREVER HE CAN,,,,,,IN WHATEVER FASHION HE COULD,,, I CAN PERSONALLY ATTEST TO ,TWO TIMES WHEN HE CAME TO ME TO ASK ME TO BE MESHTATIF IN HELPING TO YUNGELEIT TO PAY OFF THEIR DEBTS SO THEY WOULDN’T BE KICKED OUT OF THEIR… Read more »

Thank you #276
June 6, 2017 8:27 pm

That proves that when there are no guidelines and we just allow anything to go , all goes downhill from there. I’d rather my kids go to a school with frum guidelines and priorities so they go up actin. And looking like frum Jews. Proud of the beautiful heritage we have , as you said.

"Miss Waldman"
June 6, 2017 8:25 pm

Wow. A new low. Masquerading behind a false name to attack Rabbi Gurary by his name?
Low. Low. Low

Thank you Rabbi Gurary
June 6, 2017 8:23 pm

Not just that he can speak about the dress code in his school ,but I wish all Rabonim all over the world would guide the Neshei and Bnos Chabad with clear rules about tznius of dress ,Sheitel’s etc.. That would be true Ahavas Yisroel

to 283, lets get real
June 6, 2017 8:23 pm

I am a Bnos Menachem Parent.

Yes I will cut my sheitel and wear mid-calf skirts.

I was furious when I first read this letter.. took some time for me to come around… now I see so clearly why this is precisely what is needed now and I am beyond grateful that these are the standards in my daughters school…even if it will be mesiras nefesh and realllllllly hard for me to cut my sheitel 🙁

These rules can easily be kept if you can take a moment to be open-minded, they are NOT so far-fetched…

CH mothers have so much on their plate
June 6, 2017 8:20 pm

We need to show how much we appreciate mothers for what they do for their families. They raise large families, they take care of the house, they take care of the husband. Leave these women alone. Don’t demand more and more of them. Women have enough rules to deal with in life. Lets us thank all the mothers, love and respect them!

Learn Halacha
June 6, 2017 8:19 pm

אין שום מקור לגדר של “עד הכתפיים”. זאת המצאה של מאן דהו. והנה יש שהביאו ראיה שסתירת שיער היא פריצות, שבסוטה מצינו שהכהן סותר קלעי שערה, ופירש רש”י (סוטה ח.) “סותר קלעי שערה, מרבה בגילויה שסותר קליעתה”, עכ”ל. והיינו שסתירת קלעי שערה הוא הדגשת הגילוי ביותר, והדגשה זו היא פריצות. אולם אין זו ראיה כלל, כי שם מוכח רק שסתירת קלעי השיער הוא הדגשת הגילוי, אבל לא מבואר שם ענין אריכות השיער, והאם יש הבדל בין שיער סתור ארוך לקצר, וכמה הוא שיעור האורך המותר. וא”כ, מנלן לחלק בין פאה ארוכה לקצרה, כשכל אופן היא פרועת ראש ואין שערותיה קלועות.… Read more »

Thank You
June 6, 2017 8:19 pm

What a respectful, well-written, accurate letter…points made even stronger by putting your name on it. Kudos.

pathetic that she had to use a pseudonym!!
June 6, 2017 8:18 pm

Pretending to be so brave and signing her name… what a cowardly act. Makes this letter seem all the more foolish.

THANK YOU SARA
June 6, 2017 8:15 pm

Great job for and educated, smart and chassidseh person who REALLY understand Chinuch today!

Name is irrelevant
June 6, 2017 8:12 pm

She gets her point acroas very well.
Everyone knows in this community noone can sign their name anywhere without having negative ramifications.
I find the fact that one can’t be authentic sadder than a woman sporting colored polish.

THANK YOU RABBI GURARY!!!!!!!
June 6, 2017 8:08 pm

We need to be Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin min Hamehadrin so that our children should be Mehadrin Min Mehadrin.

The standards are only getting lower with every passing year.. thank Heavens someone is standing up and doing something!!

We need more like him!!!

Let's get real here
June 6, 2017 8:07 pm

Dear Bnos parents,
Practically speaking,are we cutting our wigs ?
Are we buying mid calve skirts?The answer is NO.
Make rules that are able to be kept.
Fanaticism doesn’t work .
Doesn’t sound like he thought this through very much.
Sounds like a list written quite impulsively.

Chaya Sara Waldman is a farce for 3 (or more) reasons
June 6, 2017 8:02 pm

1. A quick search online (Tzachlist.com, Google) shows that’s a fake name. For all you know this is a pro-eruv, chabad-lite sham trying to take a cheap shot anonymously for someone who is courageously trying to do what Hashem wants. 2. She actually doesn’t give a hoot about bullying or Bar Mitzvahs (or any the other values she pretends to care about). These issues were not important enough for her to write an open letter on COL until she needed to “use” these issues to put down the topic that isn’t so “convenient” for her. 3. She has no clue… Read more »

Oy!
June 6, 2017 8:02 pm

Chassidishe yiddishe chinch is most important in a time of of golus like we are in. OY Vey Hashem help US!

224.
June 6, 2017 7:59 pm

Tznius is mideoiraiso
ולא יראה בך ערות דבר.

Thank you Rabbi Motty Gurary
June 6, 2017 7:56 pm

Finally someone’s standing up for the Rebbe’s words.
Ignore the haters. Your a true shliach

Go Rabbi Gurary
June 6, 2017 7:54 pm

I stand with you.
Y. E

Somewhat on topic of this oh, so heated discussion
June 6, 2017 7:49 pm

may i ask why Crown Heights, the center of Chabad (aren’t we meant to be the role models of the other chassidim and sects of jews?) is selling dresses that are MEANT to not cover the knee? have yalls seen memomaxis advertisement video on youtube (oysh, chas vshalom, youtube! the y word, of course) Isn’t Crown Heights the place where out of towners come to shop for clothing, because nothing is tznius at the mall? Rabbi Gorari, kol hakavod. maybe your letter will be the beginning of the painful recovery of Crown Heights. Maybe by the time im a grandma,… Read more »

At least it's important to him
June 6, 2017 7:32 pm

In lamplighters there is no dress code ( that’s followed anyway) and in order for our children to continue our beautiful heritage there needs to be standards. Parents and students coming dressed however they want will surely not lead to preserving our identity

Rabbis answer questions
June 6, 2017 7:26 pm

I for one send a picture via WhatsApp to a rav who is a friend of the family. Many times i snap it while in the dressing room before i make the purchase. He always responds right away. Im sure rabbi gurary would agree to have us send him pics and he can let us know BEFORE we walk out and cause a chilul witj oir tight clothing

Fathers?
June 6, 2017 7:25 pm

Many of the requirements for mothers (although all appropriate and supported by poskim) are not clear halachic imperatives. But cutting the beard is a clear Torah prohibition according to or Rebbe the Tzemach Tzedek and many other poskim. Cutting the beard is as visible and obvious a rebellion against halacha and Lubavitch as lack of Tznius in women. If so, will Bnos Menachem expand its policy to require that fathers maintain full beards?

to number 15
June 6, 2017 7:24 pm

very true. i agree with you

I'm so sorry, Rabbi Gurary!
June 6, 2017 7:22 pm

Sorry you have to go through this now. Thanks for everything, and may you and your family know only health, nachas, and bracha always!!

Well said
June 6, 2017 7:20 pm

Well said Chaya Sara Waldman, you are to be applauded to speak out about this nonsence. How dare Rabbi Gurary show such disrespect to women. This is nothing more than controlling, bullying and snooping. Shame on him. I am sure these mothers normally dress very nicely.To attach conditions even down to nail varnish is a sign of very unhealthy power over women, using orthodoxy to do it.

Yes
June 6, 2017 7:18 pm

I agree with 227
Women need to be educated, empowered and strong.
Modesty is important but let’s not get carried away.
One can be modestly dressed and messed in the head.
Women should be centered ,balanced and proud of who they are.Inside and out.

The boys/men
June 6, 2017 7:14 pm

Where are the rules for the boys schools?
Beards,tzitzis,yarmulka colors
Men are also guilty!

Be aware -- Your defense mode is a cover for guilt
June 6, 2017 7:09 pm

Let’s step back and examine this letter’s overall mood. It reminds me of when a student is confronted with some misdemeanor. Trapped, s/he usually calls out all the other misdemeanors and flaws in the system as a way to deflect from his/her own guilt. That’s what happened here. Did this purported ‘Waldman’ even shed one tear at the dismal, horrifying state of tznius in our community?The writer is clearly defensive about her own standards. Of course we’d love to nurture everyone into loving tznius. How about, instead of hiding the issue behind a comprehensive list of crimes, Ms.Waldman suggests welcoming… Read more »

About comments teaching little girls
June 6, 2017 7:07 pm

Should five year olds running, playing, jumping, swinging climbing have to be conscious about covering “their”, oh whoops, sorry, “hers”arms and legs? Dressing little girls provocatively on the other hand is also wrong and leggings can be more modest than tight little miniskirts.

Midcalf skirts loveeeee sooo soo soo stylish!! With the יחי pins! Mwa perfect
June 6, 2017 6:45 pm

The chinuch chassiddishkeit and aidelkeit of future ch is crucial and rabbi gurray is trying to help.Thats it! Mwa!

You forgot one thing, Ms Waldman
June 6, 2017 6:42 pm

You forgot to mention the REAL problem with the publishing Of his letter.

You forgot to mention how tznius is used, BLATANTLY, as an EXCUSE to remove any persons they don’t like or feel is ‘gezhe’ enough for their ‘holy school’.

You may be the most Tznius Chabadnik, but you can never escape the Bnos Menachem hipocracy of all things Ahavas Yisroel.

Ker a velt
June 6, 2017 6:38 pm

Dear Mrs waldman, If your so worried about bullying, drugs, loshon hora then YOU should start an anti bullying campaign, make a drug rehab center….. You see rabbi gurary works in a girls school there he deals with These problems you have a problem with alcohol call the yeshivas And don’t use that dumb librial argument what’s a man saying something about a woman – he works there!!! Or tznius is a private thing… It’s clearly not there clear halochos of how to dress, don’t use a liberal addittude and I keep halacha – wherever i see fit What your… Read more »

Problem
June 6, 2017 6:37 pm

II’m sorry you have to bash halacha because of your own sensitivities and challenges.

Just saying
June 6, 2017 6:33 pm

The very strong, massive, mind blowing responses to this whole tznious thing, is total proof in itself of just how many people feel and are SO sick and tired concerning this whole topic! WHAT a reaction! almost unique on COL! And just by the way on the subject of leggings . . c’mon, its not just leggings! lets face it . . It starts of first with leggings and socks, then moves slowly towards leggings without socks, continuing to the actual length of the leggings slowly getting shorter, with time, thus slowly exposing more and more leg, and finally shortening… Read more »

Chabad is warm and welcoming
June 6, 2017 6:33 pm

But too much Anash in one place, there is always too much free time to increment social rules… to a point they abide to radical views of the world and become very very stubborn and stuck up.
“We got to a tznius all-time low, u know, i know it, common face the truth”.
Pfff… b*plz. Whoever supports this rabbi should look into other chassidic groups. Arois fun lubavitch and save us the chilul hashem.

To everyone!
June 6, 2017 6:28 pm

No uterus, no opinion!!!

Sincerely,
Concerned Bas Yisroel

kol hakoved rabbi gurarie !!!!
June 6, 2017 6:26 pm

well written so true !!!!!

Why mix problems
What you wrote are problems, but so is tznius!!!
Why mix kasha mit borscht???

If bullying, alcohol, lashon hara, etc are problems you see, address them and do something about them!

Doesn’t negate what rabbi gurary is doing in his school. Kudos to someone that is setting a standard in tznius (and I don’t send to bnos menachem)

Loved
June 6, 2017 6:23 pm

I think you’re awesome

WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS
June 6, 2017 6:22 pm

Im sorry but i have to say that one person cant think that there gonna change the future of crown heights standards. By being so strict on th girls in school and their parents it results in many more people going the opposite way instead of being more chassidishe. It just makes u distgusted when one person thinks he can take over your life and make you wear midcalf skirts. Additionally, tznuis is not the only focus in life their are many other things to work on before this. I hope we can see a change for the better and… Read more »

i love this article
June 6, 2017 6:19 pm

the author put up valid points.
I especially liked the analogy of poverty.More dreadful than red nail polish, is the silent serpent of poverty that poisons the happiness of young families who can barely make ends meet (who attend the extravagant functions of the “role models” of our neighborhood).

Clarification by the Author
June 6, 2017 6:19 pm

First, I’d like to apologize to Rabbi Gurary for addressing this op-ed to him. It was in response to his letter with new rules for the school which he sent out. Second, most of these comments seemed to have completely missed my point. It has nothing to do with the right of a school to make rules. Rabbi Gurary has every right to make any rule he pleases for his school. To me, tznius is core to my life. But in addition to how I dress, I know there’s much more to being a tznius person. Third, there is something… Read more »

Just a thought
June 6, 2017 6:17 pm

To all those saying “it’s his school, he can do what he wants”, “don’t send your child there if you don’t like the rules” etc. it’s very hard to switch a child from one school to another when they have been attending the school for so long…

thank you
June 6, 2017 6:13 pm

Thank you of being so brave and strong and looking at the pnimiut. This is a wake up call to everyone!

to number 229
June 6, 2017 6:12 pm

get a life!!!

"ONE WHO EMBARRASSES HAS NO PLACE IN OLEM HABA"
June 6, 2017 6:12 pm

I understand…. but it should not be posted on COL. image you saw a letter on COL that said:
Dear ___________,
You this and that and…….

Also its school rules.

What goes round comes round
June 6, 2017 6:11 pm

I guess Mrs “Waldman” is most definitely feeling a bit of what she attempted to make Rabbi Gourarie experience . . .
a sense of shame, embarrassment, regret??
Well it appears that 85% of the readers are totally against her post, with its content of pure chutzpa
What goes round comes round, she’s getting a taste of her own medicine!
like one of the comments said, if even 5 women get to change their views on tznious, it’ll all have been worth it
Still, how sad, that we have been reduced this low:(

shtech
June 6, 2017 6:11 pm

maybe if you keep these halachos of tzinus properly we wouldn’t see all those problems you mentioned
no child will throw of their yiddishkeit if we were to show them how special it is
and by you writing this letter it shows that you are embarrassed about your tzinus because you feel attacked and therefore wrote this attack.

stupidity
June 6, 2017 6:07 pm

I am a grown woman with grown and married children and grandchildren. I am done with the school system. So I want you to understand where I am at in life. When I hear the “rules” this man makes or any one runnings schools it gives me the urge to flip my wig and put on a pair of pants. If this type of “rules” makes me get that type of reaction, how much more so will a teenager feel? and mind you I dress tznius. if you hold something too tight the instinct is to struggle free. I understand… Read more »

Comment #25
June 6, 2017 6:03 pm

Yes. Most comments here are just making noise, but Yu have actually heard the writer.

Big Idea
June 6, 2017 6:02 pm

sounds right out of feminist handbook. maybe Ms. Waldman can organize a Women’s march or something, reading the comments it seems like there’d be a lot of participants!

I wish
June 6, 2017 6:00 pm

My girls had the opportunity to go to a school that would stand up for their values proudly like this one!! And yes, fathers should sign the letter because if their wives need help and encourage nteractive to adhere to tznius then they have an obligation to help people them. Additionally Chabad is about spreading light, but that doesn’t mean accepting all behaviours – remember the Rebbe said to bring ppl up to our levels, not us down to theirs. Finally, the hayom yom the just today was to cherish rebuke as it puts you on a higher level! Thank… Read more »

BE REAL!!
June 6, 2017 5:52 pm

DONT OVEREACCT THEY ARE STRANGE RULES…..BUT SCOOL RULES!!!!!!!!!!

Please explain
June 6, 2017 5:51 pm

What in the world is wrong with denim???Im serious.where and how does tznius get attached to denim-how did this even become a tznius issue???help me understand this phenomenom.

To COL
June 6, 2017 5:48 pm

Please, please remove this article.
It’s bringing lots of unnecessary, and even rude responses.
And, the article itself is plain Halbonas Penei Chaveiro Borabim. You don’t have to look to hard to notice that.
There are apologies owed here, and I think the Halacha is that they must be done barabim just as the Halbona was.

Shame on all who agree with this article.

Shame on those who are okay with the fact that children of the Rebbe have stooped this low.

To 227
June 6, 2017 5:45 pm

the article is talking about בנות מנחם

Why make the daughter suffer
June 6, 2017 5:43 pm

Why should the daughter of such a mother get any less of a chinuch?

Why blame him
June 6, 2017 5:41 pm

I bet there were rabbanim involved in this. I’m unsure if I should say I hope so.

Cannot believe this is posted
June 6, 2017 5:41 pm

What ever happened to Chinuch? Did we not just celebrate the holiday of children, our guarantors? Did we not just rejoice in the Torah, Halacha and Chassidus that was given to us to be up-kept by our children? If we cannot keep our traditions and pure Halacha alive ourselves, how can we ask of our children to? How can we expect our children to love these Halachos and see the beauty of what we are meant to do, if we go about speaking negatively about them and about those who observe and ask others to observe them? Just some food… Read more »

Some thought s
June 6, 2017 5:38 pm

What about the fathers dressing modestly? Why only mothers? Is it any different when the mens shirts are umbuttoned way to low, their pants are almost as tight as leggings? Their shirts as tight as a bathing suit? A school is allowed and should set standards for their school. If a private school wants to attract a certain crowd then they have all rights to. However, womans dress is not the only modest issue effecting our community. Mens dress has an effect on us as well. Little girls dress is not the only problem. Little boys dress is alsp having… Read more »

And men don't count??
June 6, 2017 5:35 pm

What about the men? Why aren’t they addressed??
Shaved beards, short Kapotas, flip flops, shorts….

WOW
June 6, 2017 5:32 pm

What a response! We should have CNN come in and stage a protest in front of the authors house as well as the school. That way we cover both sides.

Finally!
June 6, 2017 5:32 pm

Finally someone does something about the tznius issue in crown heights and everyone bashes him! As a private school he can make up any rules he wants! You don’t have to send your children there but if you do keep the rules! Why should I have to send my kids to schools with lower standards? We have enough schools with no standards at all in crown heights! Thank you Motty Guary!

this is nuts
June 6, 2017 5:31 pm

its so much fun to read the comments #nomorenetflix #colliveentertainment

Addendum to #227
June 6, 2017 5:28 pm

I’d like to add, that I am a religious, married, mother of 3, who has succeed in life both educationally and professionally, not because of, but rather in spite of BR. As a parent, you need to decide what you feel is important for your daughter. Is it a skirt that covers the knee when she is sitting? Or is it a Masters degree in Social Work? Where is her contribution to society most profound? BR only (literally) stood in the way of my higher education, because of the length of my socks. I’ll repeat, they would not release my… Read more »

Very Funny!
June 6, 2017 5:22 pm

I find it very funny that “everyone” knows who’s school Bnos Menachem is (Its Mutty Guray’s).

However, stop anyone in the street and ask “Who’s school is Bais Rivkah? Who is in charge and responsible”? No one will have a clue what to answer!!

I just find this hilarious!

THANK YOU RABBI GURARAY FOR DOING SOMETHING ABOUT TZNIUS IN CROWN HEIGHTS .TO ALL THOSE WHO DISAGREE I THINK ITS TIME CROWN HEIGHTS BECOMES LUBAVITCH AGAIN THANK YOU RABBI GURARY...
June 6, 2017 5:20 pm
out of towner
June 6, 2017 5:19 pm

I agree with Rabbi Gurary in making a parent consent letter to up the ante in the tznius standards of CH. BUT I dont agree with all of the conditions. Its one thing to ask parents to sign that they will follow HALACHA – that is what is expected of every Jew, and its not a matter of “personal preference”. Its a completely separate issue to ask women to take on extras. As much as they are Minhag HaMakom and community standards, and these need help too, nail polish and denim and sheitel lengths are not HALACHA, and one cannot… Read more »

Can I EXPLAIN why it is IMPORTANT that LITTLE GIRLS dress TZNIUSLY?
June 6, 2017 5:11 pm

If they’re taught to be tznius from the age of 5 eg. “sit tzniusly. cover your knees.” Then when they grow older they’ll naturally feel it is important. If you only start telling them to be tznius when they’re 10/12 they won’t necessarily feel it and keep to it.

Thank you!
June 6, 2017 5:02 pm

Thank you for signing your name to your letter. I love your guts, and honesty and finally someone who will tell it like it is! Don’t be afraid to say what you feel. Beis Rivkah is not the end all. Be mindful, be yourselves, teach your daughters to stand up for basic human rights, while respecting themselves. Because I promise you, BR will not teach them that. Light colored nail polish, short sheitels and submissive behaviors, will not teach them that. YOU will, as her mother and role model. Sing it woman!

Ten Yad Hachnosas Kallah
June 6, 2017 5:01 pm

Thank you Rabbi Gurary for taking a stance on this vital – I cant agree with you more!

Since I was a recipient of the great Chesed of Ten Yad – hachnasas kallah, I feel that I must take a stand when your ahavas yisroel is being publicly questioned and thank you you publicly for all that your organization has done for me when I got married.

This reminds me of Pinchas who was able to be the ultimate kanoye, davke because of his great ahavas yisroel.

Mrs Waldman and COL, you both owe the Guraries a public apology

the contract you will never see
June 6, 2017 4:57 pm

imagine a school that required parents to sign they won’t have sinas chinam or say loshon hora or do other things against bein adam l’chavero

To Trim a Beard
June 6, 2017 4:56 pm

Is an ISUR MIN HATORAH and Tzinis is only Darabonim…

I hope MUTTY WILL THROW OUT EVERY FATHER WHO TRIMES HIS BEARD WHO ACCORDING TO THE TZEMACH TZEDEK IS A DORAIISAH

Agree with 9
June 6, 2017 4:55 pm

This article is completely over exaggerated, and totally inappropriate. Halacha is Halacha, and I haven’t yet heard of a Moses who came and told us all that it changed. Publicizing such an article is utterly disgusting, and quite unbelievable, as who can give himself the right say all the things written here? Who can allow himself to take the Rebbe’s words, and translate into hetairim and leniencies the Rebbe never spoke of? In this article, you write about the wrong of judging others. What exactly has been accomplished through the publication of your letter if not that?? I’m in complete… Read more »

Tznius is the foundation.
June 6, 2017 4:54 pm

I’m sure that the principals wrote the letter, just signed by Rabbi Gurary. Tznius is the foundation of our observance. It effects are children as well, maybe if we start with that everything else will improve as well!

Lol how the mighty have fallen
June 6, 2017 4:44 pm

I showed the dress code to my conservadox friends and they didn’t see the outrage! When I became frum 15 years ago I was told that leggings were forbidden only because it might cause one to wear a shorter skirt or go without socks, just an extra fence which was proven to happen. The crazy thing those that once taught me about tznius no longer adhere to it. I wish shluchas also had this dress code, not one shlucha in my area wears stockings, all ear open toe shoes, leggings and no socks, always brightly manicured and super long shaitles.… Read more »

שכונת המלך
June 6, 2017 4:41 pm

הרבי אמר כמה וכמה פעמים שהצניעות של נשות קראון הייסט משפיעה על כל העולם ועל בגשמיות בפשטות! אם כל מי שבעד כותב המכתב הנ”ל יש לו בעיה עם ההלכה לא עם הרב גורארי, יש לו בעיה עם הקב”ה, יש לו בעיה שלא מסוגל לראות שמישהו מציליח, מישהו שאומר את האמת בפנים! מישהו שאיכפת לו! מתי תתעוררו כשהילדים שלכם יתחברו עם ההיפיס שמסתובבים בשכונה, ממש שועלים ילכו בו!!!!! בושה לכותב השורות וישר כח עצום לרב גורארי שהעלה נושא כאוב והכרחי זה על גבי האתר! אם אינכם מסכימים איתו מה מעשיכם בקראון הייס לכו ל לשכונות הפתוחות שאין מימנהיג שאין מי שיעיר… Read more »

Dear Author
June 6, 2017 4:41 pm

If you were told that women have rights and voice in judaism – then you are misinformed. The reality is- women do not have the same rights as men do in Orthodox Judaism. Women supposed to follow rulings of rabbis and male community leaders. Their husbands have the last say in most matters pertaining to wives. What we see in the streets of CH is a rebellion, a result of men ruling women, a result of obsession with women’s body (as you stated). I suggest that instead of wasting your life and energy, find another branch of Judaism or at… Read more »

An Understanding Approach
June 6, 2017 4:39 pm

His harsh approach is what got my daughter kicked out of his school after having been there for over 10 years. Instead of treating her kindly to find the root of her problems, he blamed it all on tznius and that was the end of her Jewish education. Today she is totally OTD and hates Yiddishkeit with a passion. I am not saying that she is NOT at fault but they could have dealt with her differently. In this case you cannot blame the mother, as I am a proud chassidishe woman who is very tznius.

I wish Beis,Rivkah will do the,same!!!
June 6, 2017 4:37 pm

It’s a disaster there!!! Maby they should start with wearing a sheitel and not walk like in the beach!

Kabel Es Haemes mimi sheamro
June 6, 2017 4:33 pm

Even if you don’t agree with who the messenger is accept the message.

Tone of Letter Disrespectful
June 6, 2017 4:29 pm

You are welcome to disagree with the rules… but this letter is over the top and totally off-the-mark. Write a nicer response and we’ll talk.

Rabbi Winer's sefer on tznius
June 6, 2017 4:27 pm

I heard that the rebbe was rushing rabbi winer to publish his sefer on tznius, and using the words יפה שעה אחת קודם meaning: the earlier the better.

Best defence is offence?
June 6, 2017 4:25 pm

You expect a school to address all community issues?
They’re trying to enforce basic rules for the parent body.
So you attack them with all community issues?
Because? You’re offended?
Maybe take an objective look within and at yourself

Anonymous
June 6, 2017 4:24 pm

It is honestly sad to see that while each comment is trying to stand up for one side, in the process they are hurting the other side. I feel that yes, tzniout is important but at the same time every challenge and issue has to be approached in the right fashion. As the teenagers who are being told to wear tights they probably don’t appreciate the judgment and strict rules coming from their rabbi and of course as the rabbi he probably has good intentions but when it comes to solving a problem at the end of the day the… Read more »

hah
June 6, 2017 4:23 pm

u said there is a problem with lohson hara…well everyone here is just adding to it

Priorities
June 6, 2017 4:21 pm

Of course a private school, especially a religious school, has every right to set standards for the dress and conduct of its students, and to encourage the parents to support those standards at home. And I have long wondered how other frum communities are looking at the community here, which is supposedly a chassidishe neighborhood, and what impression they are forming of Chabad as a result. But this article makes some very good points about where our priorities ultimately should be. Should Crown Heights be known as a place where you can’t leave the house without someone remarking on the… Read more »

to those who said not proper for man to tell woman how to dress
June 6, 2017 4:15 pm

So who wrote “Beautiful Within” Who wrote “modesty, an adornment for life” who wrote “glory of the kings daughter”.
When I, a woman, have doubts about clothes I want to buy, I describe them to a rav, not a woman, and I get a PSAK, not a personal feeling.

GREAT PR FOR BNOS MENACHEM
June 6, 2017 4:10 pm

Anyone who wants a school with Torah true values now knows they bnos menachem is the place to go. Great job letter writer. By exposing your own distorted views you help intelligent people realize how important a good school like bnos menachem is– to protect their children from influences such as yours

Her point?
June 6, 2017 4:08 pm

I think the author is saying that the problem with the principal enforcing a standard of tznius is that tznius implies inwardness and when tznius dress codes are enforced it sort of negates the inwardness a woman should feel. Someone can force someone to do something but when the force is taken away, the thing that was enforced, such as dress, might be rebelled against because it wasn’t absorbed b’pnimius. The Rebbe said that everyone can increase in their levels of tznius. Perhaps some women don’t understand why denim or long shaitels might be considered against standards. The principal might… Read more »

Wow!!
June 6, 2017 4:07 pm

So so beautiful that all the comments here are against this woman! How beautiful Chabad is! We know what’s right….Majority of the 178 comments are towards rabbi Gaurary! Ashreinu !

if im not mistaken #183
June 6, 2017 4:07 pm

Im not sure where I read this..maybe someone knows.. The Rebbe once said that we have what to learn from Beis Yaakov from their tznius

More shocking than lack of understanding
June 6, 2017 4:03 pm

Way more shocking is this letter writer’s blatant disrespect for Halacha. Shocking indeed that such trash can be posted here

Mesivtas
June 6, 2017 4:03 pm

I don’t understand, how come throughout the United States and Canada the high schools are allowed to be as picky as they would like, and nobody shouts nobody yells everybody just follows the rule. The tuition rates are astronomical and nobody cares, I think that Rabbi Gurary should have planned it a bit more with packed but at the end of the day these are the rules and the parents need to adhere to them if they want their child in that school.

About Rabbi Gurary
June 6, 2017 4:02 pm

It is his school and he can run it anyway he likes! In my opinion I think this Rabbi is very brave!
If you don’t like the way he runs it don’t have your daughter attend his school but if I had a daughter i would be proud to have her recived her education at his school. I like when people take a stand and this is what this Rabbi is doing.
BTW I’am not from Crown Heights.

To the author
June 6, 2017 4:01 pm

Thank you for echoing what so many of us woman and parents have been feeling.

To #9
June 6, 2017 4:00 pm

Well said
Great great Post
BRAVO!!
THANKS!!

Wow
June 6, 2017 3:59 pm

Things sure have changed! 20 years ago those standards were a given. AND the idea that men (rabbonim) should be able to ductate how women behave with their bodies was standard too! I agree with letter writer, but maybe she should consider whether maybe it’s orthodox Judaism she takes issue with rather than just R. G.

The Responses make the Writer's Point.
June 6, 2017 3:54 pm

Having read the responses to this letter, I find it intriguing that no one has meaningfully commented on the many, and significant, issues raised. It appears that for all its declarations of piety, the community focuses only on the external and ignores matters of great importance e.g. child abuse in all its forms, disparaging members of the community (in front of the children you are so intent on educating properly!) and so on. Your responses suggest you are more interested in band-aids (i.e., covering elbows and knees) than dealing with actual issues. Shame on you!

to the OP
June 6, 2017 3:54 pm

CH is not ment to be a Chabad house. That does not mean we don’t accept people etc. It means that our schools and institutions are creating the ones who will go out to make chabad houses. Obviously, we live in a time we’re we need to “act” in a chabad house style… But that does not mean we are free to behave like the ones who we are supposed to be bringing closer. I don’t necessarily agree with the specifics of Rabbi Gurary’srules but he has the absolute right and obligation to hold anyone who can have any affect… Read more »

to #178 Marge
June 6, 2017 3:53 pm

Husbands haven’t had a say in what their wive’s wear for many years now. We are a walk-on-eggshell society. If a husband even hints that he is unhappy with what his wife is wearing he (and his wife) will end up in marriage counseling within a week. In all likeliness, the wife will fire back at him with a straw man argument like “you are not so frum either, because you didn’t go to shul for shacharis etc.” And if you think that father’s have a say in what their daughter’s wear… well let’s just say LOL. To answer your… Read more »

What happened to we will accept the Torah
June 6, 2017 3:53 pm

Is it no wonder that this generation has no respect. The mothers, the fathers, set the example for the kids. We are losing so many due to our lack of pride in our halachahs, minhagim and chumrahs. What would be so terrible if the mothers and fathers all took upon themselves to follow these new rules. Show respect for the administrators. Men should also be required to follow standards. Basically anything we as lubavitchers would be ashamed to go before the Rebbe for dollars is inappropiate. We all know what those standards are. We have become lax and lenient because… Read more »

Interesting and to #10
June 6, 2017 3:49 pm

I do love this appropriate response to the letter and agree with it. However, at the end of the day, a private school is a private school, he can make the demands he wishes because of this.

To number twn, he charges what he does so that the teachers can get paid! What do you think happened to bais rivka! Running a school costs an exhorbitant amount of money, which he fundraises for and pays for, but you NEED tuition money. School can’t be free loaded for the majority of families, its just not sustainable.

Queen Elizabeth
June 6, 2017 3:48 pm

Queen Elizabeth told her new grandaughter-in-law after she got married; you are now the wife of the man who will be king, the mother of another future king. You must dress the part.
Are bnos yisroel any less?

ממנו יראו וכן יעשו
June 6, 2017 3:46 pm

Time for Beis Rivka to set some standards too. I have the greatest respect for Rabbi Gurary for setting standards in HIS SCHOOL. What a chutzpah of this letter writer to bash him for holding onto values. The outrageous lack of tznius in crown heights needs to be dealt with!!!! Any person can decide what they want in their house. If they don’t want smoking they can say no smoking here. And the pritzus here is way more toxic than smoke!!!!!!! It stinks

Comment
June 6, 2017 3:46 pm

הן נכון אשר (בניגוד ליוצאי אונגארן) בליובאוויטש מעולם לא הי’ “קאך” בצניעות ואיך הנשים לובשות וכו’ (אנשי אונגארן מדברים על לבושי הנשים בכל עת– החל מהאדמו”ר שלהם אפילו ביוהכ”פ בתפלת כל נדרי וכו’) מ”מ אולי לאחרונה בחב”ד צריכים קצת תיקון בתחום זה.

אולי לא באופן שהרב גורארי’ עשה את זהץ

אבל יש לעיין בכל זה

One of the signs of MOSHIACH
June 6, 2017 3:38 pm

It is said that before Moshiach comes one of the signs will be “Chutzpah yasgey” Which means there will be abundant of chutzpah. Sadly this is clearly such a case. Women who call themselves Chabad chasidim refuse to dress accordingly and when a rabbi stands up for what’s right they have the chutzpah to complain. I repeating argument that men have no right telling women is also not a chasidishe frum argument. this is an argument used by liberal feminists who are pro choice i.e. pro abortion. In other words, this argument can be used by women to not obey… Read more »

You forgot one thing, Ms Waldman
June 6, 2017 3:28 pm

You forgot to mention the REAL problem with the publishing Of his letter.

You forgot to mention how tznius is used, BLATANTLY, as an EXCUSE to remove any persons they don’t like or feel is ‘gezhe’ enough for their ‘holy school’.

You may be the most Tznius Chabadnik, but you can never escape the Bnos Menachem hipocracy of all things Ahavas Yisroel.

This whole article is just politics propoganda
June 6, 2017 3:28 pm

I really wonder what the writer’s real intentions are, probably politics, or some Machlokes they must have had with Motti Guerary, definitely not holy intentions, and shame on COL for fanning this silliness,

Hashgacha protis
June 6, 2017 3:27 pm

See today’s hayom yom. Only a true friend will point out your spiritual failings.

155 ???
June 6, 2017 3:24 pm

Putting the holy moisad the friediker rebbe founded with greatvself sacrifice in the same sebtence as a non jewish school???

B"D should do the same
June 6, 2017 3:24 pm

The B”D of C”H should also put strong Tznius rules for the Shcunah (Just like Rabbi Ashkenazi is doing so strongly in Kfar Chabad, and) just like Rabbi Gurary did for his school… Tznius situation in CH is a total disaster…

Thank you Rabbi Gurary!
June 6, 2017 3:19 pm

Although making some of these changes such as shortening my Sheitel is extremely hard for me, I have to admit that I always felt it was wrong to wear such a loud Sheitel. However with time I became desensitized, and told myself that if everyone is doing it then it must be OK. I am sure you knew that there would be a backlash to your letter, and I’m sure you would rather have the principles sign it, but you had no choice. I respect you for doing this, and this strengthens my confidence that I have made the best… Read more »

To 169
June 6, 2017 3:17 pm

The Jews wanted a king to like the other nations, now you want Chabad to be like belz. Please join belz, they are very tzanua.

It became the normal!??
June 6, 2017 3:14 pm

This what happens after 22 years with the rebbe hidden from are eyes, chabad women don’t need to be tznius anymore

We need more Motty Gurarys in this community
June 6, 2017 3:13 pm

Crown Heights became a zoo

As principle of a girls school....
June 6, 2017 3:11 pm

is it rabbi gouraries place to tackle poverty in the neighborhood? excess spending at simchos? neighborhood politics? he is educating girls according to the shulchan aruch and when parents of those girls openly contradict what he is teaching he is letting parents know that it isnt acceptable. of course, “mrs waldman” is free to send her daughters to any other school whose principle isnt so demanding.

Each challenge is important enough to be adressed on its own.
June 6, 2017 3:06 pm

So many of you are saying what about this or what about that… Yes unfortunally there are other challenges we face as well. But that doesn’t negate the fact that each challenge needs to be adressed. Now one person got up ans adressed this challenge and hopefully it will affect the other challenges as well. But it all starts with one good step in the right direction.

marge
June 6, 2017 3:04 pm

Where are the husbands in all this? How can they want the general public to view wives and daughters partially unclothed?

Wondering
June 6, 2017 2:59 pm

I am wondering if it would have been better to say the mothers are required to come to classes teaching kabolos ol, the Rebbe’s sichos to ladies, and the laws of tznius and then after coming to the classes a number of times, to require this dress code.. It seems that ladies who may be dressing in a manner not fit for a Bas Melech may not be exposed to learning the Torah that Hashem entrusted us with.

anonymous
June 6, 2017 2:57 pm

I am a woman who struggles with some of these rules, but B”H at least I know that I am wrong and I try to reach a higher level. The pritzus has gone so far, that we need to go in an opposite direction to bring it back. Thank you Rabbi Gurary for attempting to have the same standards as in a regular Beis Yaakov! On another note, this post is a disgusting attempt to shame someone publicly.. someone who is trying to bring kedusha back to our families. Nobody is perfect, so don’t let that lose the point of… Read more »

thank you
June 6, 2017 2:56 pm

יישר כח! ( how interesting that when you respond in such a dignified clear manner some respond that it’s shaming maybe because our frum culture is accustomed to having women bashed and humiliated in the name of tznius or whatever they call it. Time to examine our motives,

Let's learn.
June 6, 2017 2:55 pm

In response to this comment: “By wondering what the role is here for the husband who signs this letter – is it to inspect and approve his wife before she leaves the house? ” [When a woman] violates the faith of Moses or the Jewish faith, and similarly, one about whom is issued a scandalous report, her husband is not compelled to divorce her. If he desires [to remain married], he need not divorce her. Nevertheless, even when her husband does not divorce her, she is not entitled to a ketubah. [The rationale is that] a ketubah was ordained by… Read more »

mum
June 6, 2017 2:55 pm

ok lady make sure you and your family keep everything in the Torah, ALL THE RULES OF THE SHULCHAN ARUCH and you wont need anymore letters
by you writing this letter you have only done one thing you have taught your children to be disrespectful .

to #156
June 6, 2017 2:54 pm

Your children go to school with my children.
And our children are in a schoo where high schoolers learn to be very cagey about what t hey wear and where they wear it. Don’t think for a single minute that BM girls are any more tzniusdik than BR girls (and this goes for Bais Chaya Mushka also). The ‘imposed’ rules don’t enter their heart. Listen to your own daughters if you don’t believe me.

marge
June 6, 2017 2:53 pm

Expecting a dress code is usual practice in schools,businesses etc.I recall a very prominent public visitor to our London mosad.asking her aide to fetch a cardigan from her car when she saw and appreciated how it is correct to dress there.She was respectful and praised the school for maintaining high personal standards.

FINALLY!!!
June 6, 2017 2:50 pm

YES YES YES! As a Bnos Menachem graduate I came say that we had so many feelings surrounding this obsession with the details of how we dressed. We felt so neglected in other ways- emotionally, psychologically, mentally- but that was never a priority for the “esteemed holy hanhallah” of Bnos Menachem.

יישר כח הרב גורארי
June 6, 2017 2:50 pm

שמעתי מא החסידים שהרבי מבעלז זצ”ל היה אומר ש”על צניעות צריך לצאת בחירוף נפש”.

אכן חוצפה מהרב גורארי לצאת בכזו הצהרה..
אולם חוצפה גדולה יותר היא לצאת נגד הרב גורארי..

מכל התגובות הבנתי שאמנם אש אחזה בעצים והוויכוח רק איך לכבותה ..
אני מוכן לשמע מכל א על עיצה טובה ומועילה יותר.
לעת עתה כל הזועקים היום היו דוממים בעת האחרונה…
יישר כח הרב גורארי.

Advice to all
June 6, 2017 2:47 pm

This is not an argument that there is a real winner
From experience with litvishe and satmar and our youth
Before yo come out with any fatwa dcree make sure its 1000% according to ש’ע
Our children are not idiots they will grow up and they will scream מהיכן דנתוני show me where it says in ש’ע
And
If you can’t show them then you have blood on your hands

Is THIS okay???
June 6, 2017 2:47 pm

He keeps a tape measure to inspect if the skirt is mid-calf. Is THAT okay???

He feels the shoulders if they are padded when deciding sheitel is past shoulders. Is THAT okay???

e looks up and down the woman, examinimg her if there is anything to see. Is THAT okay????

Pretty sad
June 6, 2017 2:47 pm

Collive will warm their hands on any controversy. It was a private letter to parents body, all this media outrage is for views / clicks, nothing more.
It took two full days to take down stupid Mendy Pellin video, because who would in their right mind refuse the enormous traffic it generates?
When Rabbonim warned bout news sites, we all assumed they just want silence. But what is really true is that it’s a media business, and it has very logical rules, where traffic is a king and [manufactured] controversy is a king of traffic. Same as MSM.

Mother
June 6, 2017 2:44 pm

Thank you Rabbi Gourarie !

to #12
June 6, 2017 2:43 pm

you respect Chaya Sara Waldman for signing her name?? there is no Chaya Sara Waldman. its a fake name, obviously. when you criticize someone publicly like this it should be IMPERATIVE to sign a real name.

LETS GET THIS STRAIGHT
June 6, 2017 2:41 pm

Waldman doesn’t question Gurary’s right to make any rules he wants for his school. Nor does she question anyone’s freedom to send or not send children to the school. So let’s put that to rest: he has a right to impose whatever rules he wants onthe school, and no one is forced to go to that school. What Waldman says is this: Aidelkeit and kedusha are the core of our living. But Gurary’s – and others’ – definition of aidelkeit and kedusha as being little girls legs exposure is simply a wrong definition. She pointgs out that ‘aidelkeit’ is dignity… Read more »

90 comments - now mine
June 6, 2017 2:41 pm

Dear Mrs. Waldman, I began reading your letter with great interest, as I too questioned Rabbi Gurary’s new policies. I must thank you since the responses to your letter clarified everything. Now I understand WHY Rabbi Gurary instituted these policies. Like most of the previous 90 posters, I too see a major problem in CH & it’s getting worse. I see women with sheitels to the waist (if they bother to wear one), almost meeting their skirt lengths. I see girls older than 3, 9 and 12 in short socks, cap sleeves & leggings. Everyone (or so it seems) has… Read more »

No issue with gurary it's his school but...
June 6, 2017 2:37 pm

He’s a fanatic but it’s his school. All I think is that maybe turning away Jewish children from his school based on the length of the mother’s shaitel might be moneiah bar מונע בר which alter rebbe writes in Tanya the harshness of this sin. Gurary can do more for the community then creating divisions and hatred and jealousy not to mention turning away little girls from a Jewish education just because the mother wears a little b”h shaitel. This further pushes away the company b”h of moshiach. Every time his school makes a Charidy fundraiser I tell the one… Read more »

To # 40
June 6, 2017 2:35 pm

YOU ARE SO RIGHT.

Gurary runs a private school for people who dont care about the fact that the rebbe opened BAIS RIVKAH AND put his name on and it is under Machne and Merkas.

Muti opened his school after GIMEL TAMUZ as nobody would dare open another girls school while the rebbe was living.

Muti take your chumros to Gezzaland and maybe not be so cruel with tution and milking parents for everything they got,

Really??
June 6, 2017 2:32 pm

Please don’t use the Rebbe and his ahavas Israel as an excuse for everything. Yes, the Rebbe had ahavas Yisroel for every Yid but he did also have standards for his community. I’m pretty sure he would fully agree with these guidelines for this school. The tznius in CH is at an all time low!! Do you think the Rebbe would be happy these days with the tznius of CH? I’m not a prime example myself, but whoa some things I see here wouldn’t even pass in any MO community. And yes, we have bigger problems than tznius too, but… Read more »

Missing one clause
June 6, 2017 2:31 pm

The letter from the school is missing a clause.

All rules will be waved for a fee. The school had no problem with parents that have standards lower than Modern Orthodox, they were all wealthy.

בחירות לרבניות השכונה
June 6, 2017 2:30 pm

כשקראתי את מכתבה של Chaya Sara Waldman֚ כמו כן מספר תגובות שמופיעים למעלה ־ עלה בדעתי שצריכים לעשות בחירות לרבניות השכונה שהן יורו לנשים את דיני הצניעות ואיך להתלבש (ואולי גם בדיני מראות) ־ מכיון שלרבנים חס ושלום אסור לפסוק בדיני נשים

Dear Sarah
June 6, 2017 2:28 pm

Your obviously going through a very rough time in your Judaism, and your place in the community. As a father in our community, and as a parent of children in his school, I agree 100% with the outlined guidelines. I don’t know you, but chances are you are not a modest dresser, and your children are probably rebellious. As a result, I do not want my children going to a school with your children, bringing your standards into the classroom. Therefore, I send my kids to his school. His school is a place of halacha guidelines along with the proper… Read more »

Carpenter
June 6, 2017 2:28 pm

What an empty article devoid of any material substance, clearly motivated by personal anguish about the fact that a male Rabbi is requesting adherence to religious standards from female (mothers and students) who wish to attend his private religious school. It’s utter lunacy to accuse him of being disingenuous for not openly tackling every issue that afflicts our community. This man is tackling a grave issue that most people wouldn’t dare to, and he deserves an abundance of gratitude from those of us – the silent majority – who still care about the spiritual well being of our community. For… Read more »

It's about Chinuch
June 6, 2017 2:22 pm

The author says that Rabbi Gurary is not going to have a positive influence on the mothers. However, he isn’t trying to change the mothers. The maidelach are his concern. When maidelach see a mother picking her daughter from school, and the mother is not dressed tznius, it undercuts the whole educational process for all the maidelach that the school works so hard for.

THANK YOU RABBI GURARI
June 6, 2017 2:22 pm

YOUR A TRUE HERO

THE FIRST HALACHA IN ALTER REBBES SHULCHAN ARCH IS :
אל יבוש מפני המלעיגים
חזק ואמץ בעבודת הקדושה ה

daas torah
June 6, 2017 2:21 pm

to all know know the matzav of tzniyus became very liberal in our community unfortunately, to the point were the chabad rabonim feel not in place or power to enforce it.. As such private organizations and schools do carry much power. Yasher koach to The principal which has clear views on enforcing finally our chabad standards lost to the control of the masses.

Why the outrage
June 6, 2017 2:18 pm

When someone tries to improve tznius…
Where’s the bigger outrage for the lack of tznius

And yes I’m a proud Bnos Menachem parent that finds these new rules difficult but this response is pathetic…shift the response to those lowering the standards, not to those trying to elevate it….
Looking for a worse problem than one being addressed doesn’t solve anything

I don't keep tznius
June 6, 2017 2:18 pm

Firstly this letter is something I do not agree with and would never ever be able to adhere to. That being said, I would never think to bend the rules of the school and confuse my children. I know who I am as a person and although I was brought up lubavitch and still partake in the community, I know the MO school system is better for me. I don’t get the outrage. If you are unhappy about the schools standards, why send your kids there? Don’t try to confuse your children by breaking the rules, they will no longer… Read more »

Dear Sarah
June 6, 2017 2:15 pm

Your obviously going through a very rough time in your Judaism, and your place in the community. As a father in our community, and as a parent of children in his school, I agree 100% with the outlined guidelines. I don’t know you, but chances are you are not a modest dresser, and your children are probably rebellious. As a result, I do not want my children going to a school with your children, bringing your standards into the classroom. Therefore, I send my kids to his school. His school is a place of halacha guidelines along with the proper… Read more »

Mansplain much?
June 6, 2017 2:12 pm

Any other suggestion for how and when women should talk, walk, cook or parent or shall I say mother? Perhaps we should wear cloaks and change our names to OF[insert husband’s name] to minimize objectification.

Beautiful and thoughtful response bringing up pressing and. Overlooked relevant issues that could stenthen the community

Dear Parent:
June 6, 2017 2:10 pm

It’s time to send all the Girls To Bais Rivka!!! And Leave “Benos Menachem” with the “Flashlight” And The “Tape Measure” of The Tznius like in Satmar…

A frankly true response
June 6, 2017 2:08 pm

Ms.Chaya Sara,
Your words speak to my heart. So ever true,couldn’t have said it better my self. Thank you for standing up and saying what needed to be said.

embarrrased
June 6, 2017 2:03 pm

Bravo to you for writing this response, and with your name attached!!
Are there no men’s tznius issues that need addressing? No men who wear denim, no men who ‘touch’ their beards, no men who wear inappropriate clothing.
If people can’t see how ‘off’ it looks for a man to go into such detail about women’s clothing, that is proof that our society has reached a very low point indeed.
Also, private school is not the issue, the letter was publicized on COL. That is to what people are responding.

The first red flag
June 6, 2017 2:02 pm

For years the rebbe would not allow another girls school besides beth rivkah. Aftet gimel tammuz gurary opens new school against the rebbes clear wishes. So he clearly is no longer within the rebbes group. He has lost his way.

Narashkiet
June 6, 2017 2:01 pm

Love peace light and aseh tov… standards are standards and Torah is Torah and principles are principles.

Nothing more than a distortion of the Rebbes words

Great Letter!
June 6, 2017 2:00 pm

Can we all agree that these standards are NOT halacha? Since when was wearing light nail polish and hair at shoulder length halacha? It’s absolutely ridiculous when people try to add rules to Judaism. This is what turns people off. Additionally, it is highly inappropriate for a Rabbi to address women on how to dress.

Bnos Menachem Parent
June 6, 2017 1:59 pm

I am infinitely grateful for the wonderful chinuch my daughter received at Bnos Menachem. I wish Rabbi Gurary and the entire faculty tremendous brachos for them and their families for helping my daughter to be where she is today. I am happy to abide by what they ask and have tremendous hakaras hatov for the wonderful work they are doing.

Unsettling
June 6, 2017 1:57 pm

There is something ugly and not beautiful in the least with detailing to woman exactly how they should be covering their body parts.

Kvetch
June 6, 2017 1:55 pm

“How dare you address ‘X’ when you are aren’t talking about ‘Y’?!”

What a silly letter, whatever issue you deal with I can always complain because what about this other unrelated issue that you are aren’t fixing.

Larry
June 6, 2017 1:54 pm

To # 60 I believe today the problem is people have issue with trusting anyone or having respect for anyone and therefore a lot of this were people disagree with Rabbi Gurary is out of lack of respect for anyone. I don’t know who the right person is in today’s society that people would respect and knew that he had no agenda other than doing good maybe then there would be no arguments to such an important issue . Moshiac now

Just to add to those above
June 6, 2017 1:54 pm

His school = His rules.

What a Chutzpah Chaya Soro!
June 6, 2017 1:53 pm

You should think before you publicly write such foolish letters. You are obviously very misguided to say the least.

Crown Heights and Lubavitch in general needs many more such leaders to guide and yes sometimes reprimand.

Let's learn
June 6, 2017 1:53 pm

The new set of rules do not say that tznius is more important than bullying, lashon hara, good middos etc. Rabbi Gurary is addressing ONE of the current challenges; modesty with regard to attire and appearance. Although I wish a different approach were to be used, such as education via collaboration, the new set of rules demonstrate the commitment and confidence Rabbi Gurary has to the community and in the parent body and students of his school. There is no doubt about it. The mode of dress here in crown heights leaves much to be desired. When someone is lacking… Read more »

Beautifully written
June 6, 2017 1:51 pm

I am glad somebody is willing to speak out against the sexism found in our community.

Classes
June 6, 2017 1:40 pm

They should talk to the girls openly about sensitive issues and help them express themselves.
Figure out what the underlying issue is.
That’s more important.
Shame should never be used to discuss modesty.
Are the staff warm to the girls ?Do the girls feel judged or respected?
There’s more to.modesty than blue nail polish.

Someone standing up!
June 6, 2017 1:31 pm

Can someone pls explain to me what mecharcherei riv means ?!

You go girl!!!
June 6, 2017 1:30 pm

By focusing on the exterior, we are shifting the focus away from what truly matters- MIDOS!!!

Shameful shamefula article
June 6, 2017 1:29 pm

Finaly someone stands up to tznius in lubavitch and you bring in unrelated issues?? Dont bring my rebbe into this.
People have totally thrown this away bwcause noone dares stands up to them.

TO #58 BINGO!
June 6, 2017 1:21 pm

At least someone gets it!