By a mechanech
Let’s get realistic. Children only have so much learning capacity / focus / interest.
There’s no such thing as creating an exciting and consuming program, without compromising on the children’s other studies.
Some might argue that Chidon is more important than Mishnayos and Gemara, this is obviously something I think many (myself included) would disagree with, but at least it’s a straightforward discussion – “what’s more important?”
However, saying that the flashy and exciting Chidon does not detract from the basic learning in yeshivas, is merely wishful thinking.
Being involved in chinuch myself, I have had opportunity to conduct many a candid conversation with fellow melamdim (and menahalim), and can attest that an overwhelming majority of mechanchim I spoke with agree that Chidon does in fact detract from acquiring the most important thing school has to offer – LEARNING SKILLS.
This is specifically potent when it comes to boys in grades 4-8, as in these grades they learn (how to learn) Gemara.
To be clear, acquiring Gemara skills includes learning a new language (as well as lingo). This is much easier (and effective) when done at a young age.
Additionally, Gemara skills include: method of analysis, manner of debate, and mode of thought. These are all skills ingrained best at a young age.
Focus on Gemara skills at the formative cheder age is therefore crucial for a child’s future success in yeshiva, and as a frum yid who has (and should have) a steady kvius in Gemara.
As the Tsemach Tzedek writes in a letter (printed in ספר החקירה page 469 and בית רבי page 360) to those who wanted to place the focus of learning with the children in cheder on Mishnayos and Rambam:
“We need, and must, teach children Gemara … Without this, the children will understand nothing … it is also well known that one who has not become fluent with Gemara in his youth, even if he is fluent in Mishnayos and Rambam, will not afterwards become sufficiently capable of learning Gemara…”
Yet, as a number of Mesivta hanhala have described to me in frustration, some boys come in thinking that they know “kol hatorah kula”, whilst in fact they cannot even read and translate the most basic line of Gemara bifnim.
This realization is a major blow to the kids, and the yeshivas have to try so much harder to motivate them to master (at this later and more difficult stage) the skills necessary to learn the “boring” Gemara.
This is a sad reality that our yeshivas have to deal with.
This is an “all hands on deck” issue. It’s a crisis. Boys have to become independent Gemara learners by their early teens.
This is not only objectively important as a value, but it is also strategically the smartest way to ensure many productive (and therefore healthy) years in mesivta, zal and beyond.
It’s really time for us mechanchim to unite on this, and as we double our efforts in teaching kids the nuanced skills of mastering the fine art called learning Gemara bifnim; we ask of all outside influences: please respect our Shlichus.
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+ Menahel Responds to the Chidon Controversy
Well said! About time someone speaks up!
The “mechanech” argues that the emphasis on Chidon necessarily detracts from “Gemara bifnim.” The author, however, fails to explain why schools can’t emphasize two subjects and have students succeed at both. And that’s plainly wrong. Schools teach tons of unrelated subjects, and the emphasis of one doesn’t necessarily detract from the other. If this “mechanech” is unable to impart more than one subject to his students, maybe he should rethink his career. The only correct criticism of the Chidon is: If they expect students to use school time towards the Chidon studying, and if schools encourage students to do so,… Read more »
My cheder students put tremendous effort into preparing for the chidon. I admit, at times I have to cut down on homework or relax the learning a bit when a big test is coming up. However, the gain is definitely worth it. Countless times, when a new concept comes up in Gemara or mishnayos, I am amazed by the incredible knowledge that the boys have of these subjects. From my experience with mesivta bochurim, students who come to yeshiva with this knowledge are way ahead of their peers. It’s not for naught that the Rebbe encouraged limmud haRambam – kol… Read more »
As if before chidon existed all our bachurim excelled in gemara.
it’s not that it was fine before chidon, now with chidon, it turns the focus more of our children towards the chidon than to Gemarah B’fnim.
I was in Yeshiva just before the Chidon started and maybe 5 out of a class of 25 were able to learn Gemara on their own at mesivta age. Back then Artscroll was the boogie man and I guess now it’s the chidon… funny stuff. The real problem is that there aren’t enough talented lubavitchers willing to get involved in chinuch to create a passion for learning, as well learning in general isn’t much of a focus since shlichus is the focus.
This is correct description of a problem and the solution
You had me till you said that artscroll was the boogie man. You were probably one of the 20 bachurim
A student that thinks they mastered every single aspect of the Torah from Learning chidon is most probably not bright and that is the reason he can’t learn a line of Gemara inside. Mastering a spelling bee and knowing how to spell the dictionary doesn’t mean you know quantum mechanics.
That doesn’t take away from spelling bees
Agree 100%!!! If this is so important it should taught in schools like part of the curriculum not as an extra!!! I really don’t get it!
I find the complete opposite with my son. Chidon is not teaching him Gemara skills but he is finally learning how to learn and take studies seriously. Besides for learning and retaining priceless important information
When I did chidon for the first time as a 7th grader it was the first time in my life I ever realized that I knew how to learn. I always felt stupid in school but when it came to chidon I was a finalist. I realized it’s not that I’m not smart but that I wasn’t motivated. I’m so grateful to chidon for showing me that I have the ability to learn. Is chidon taking away from some kids learning? I’m sure it is. But for many kids it’s opening a new path, motivating them to start really learning.… Read more »
The main part of school is to not teach your kids skills, fact is most kids don’t know how to work a piece of Gemara until they learn on Mesivta. The main part of school is the excitement that the school gives off, which include the kids, teacher and administration. The chidon does a phenomenal job at this, it brings life competition to learning that was never seen before. Kids won’t remember what learnt In school what they will remember if the teacher was nice or not if it was boringly and so on. The Chidon will bring me worked… Read more »
But you seem to be disagreeing with the letter of the צמח צדק quoted in the article…
If I would have to choose between my son being excited about Torah and my son being able to learn Gemara well, I would choose the former. Nowadays, Artscroll allows one who never acquired Gemara skills to complete the entire Shas. There are also excellent shiurim, both in person and on various hotlines or apps. If I finish shas ten times during my lifetime, does it really make that much of a difference whether I needed to use an Artscroll the first few times? I don’t mean to detract the importance of Gemara skills. Indeed, the lack of skills can… Read more »
Focus on Gemara Bifnim has taken my class to unparalleled levels.
I’ve joined a program which promotes it beautifully, and my students love it!
What program?
Chidon became everything we blame all our problems on? We can’t afford life so the 300$ chidon is asking is what’s gonna make it or break it? Our kids are struggling in certain areas so CHIDON is the culprit for everything? Chidon is an amazing way for kids to spend their time AFTER hours!! If they wouldn’t be learning this, they’d prob do other things that won’t help their learning either (to say the least). We are so grateful to CHIDON for enriching our lives with such amazing content presented so beautifully. All this backlash is quite shocking. Peer pressure… Read more »
Chidon is the best thing that happened to our kids! They have so much bekiyus! The fact that they can’t learn befnim has NOTHING to do with chidon! Look at the elementary schools and see what is happening there in each classroom. Chidon is a self-study program kids do on their own time. Average students have become knowledgeable! They do this on their own time instead of…. Shtusim. I don’t know which mesivta you are with, but perhaps you should look at your kids with different eyes. Respect them for want they actually know. They know a lot. Now it’s… Read more »
Very true. Do you think though, that perhaps in addition there is a slight problem of technology distraction that is making it hard to learn “boring” gemara?
It is becoming very hard in general to teach kids these days due to the entertainment that they have become accustomed to..sadly this has spilled over into the frum world. This should be part of the discussion
I am a 20 year mesivta teacher, and nothing can be farther from the truth. The chidon has given the average kid so much information that without the chidon they would not have known. I challenge this esteemed teacher to test himself against some of the kids in the chidon.
I can tell you that kids have enough time on their hands to do both. Maybe it’s time for teachers to excite their kids more.
This is such a disturbing article. Looking for chametz for the sake of looking for chametz.
The writer didn’t question the vast knowledge children gain from chidon.
Question is only, do the kids have sufficient gemara bifnim skills?
As a teacher, can you attest that your students (at the age of 13-14) are able to learn gemara bifnim independently?
This is the topic.
I hired a tutor a number of years ago to teach my son gemarah skills in 8th grade, since I saw he would need this extra boost to help him succeed in mesivta. It still took him time to master gemarah learning while in mesivta, and he struggled for his first year. Today I hear of boys having tutors for chidon learning, and not gemarah learning. I think this is a mistake.
But for the kids who struggle with gemara chidon is actually an area they can succeed in and feel good about themselves.
I’m sure there are pros and cons to everything.
When moshiach comes the world will be perfect.
Are you sure they would be using this time to study gemorah bifnim?
What does the fact that you don’t teach Gemara skills well enough have to do with the Chidon?
My son had no homework and wasn’t challenged in school. Chidon filled a huge void. It was the best thing ever. 4th, 5th and 6th. 7th grade was bar mitzvah year and most boys did not do it. I tried but was denied that the boys do a double curriculum for 8th grade. They were bored anyways and felt they missed out cuz they were studying for bar mitzvah. Oh well. I tried. So in 8th grade, Instead of chidon, they spent their time on minecraft and Google hangouts. Grateful for the 3 great years. Too bad they didn’t hear… Read more »
Something tells me that if there wasn’t chidon, mechanchim would find something else to blame for kids not learning Gemara, when I was in school there was no chidon and yet no one learned.
Just a fact of life, gotta accept it.
lets get something straight:
years ago there was little investment in chinuch, for numerous reasons.
the past few years have seen so much talents, energy, funds etc poured into chinuch. this should have produced more qualified learners. the fact that it hasn’t, is because all the good energy is being misplaced, directed to this childish immediate-gratification.
Couldn’t have said it better.
This childish immediate-gratification program distracts the energy from the real deal – actually learning the traditional way.
Thank you for this article. Another point…when the Rebbe said to learn sefer hamitzvos, it was meant to be learned everyday, the halochos for that day, not to memorize what punishments were for what aveiros…it is misguided learning.
I too teach bochrim in 7th grade , I hear and see too often in my classroom , and other teachers that are masters at there craft , this beautiful Sefer being used as a “ chasidisha y”h – a escape method “ in middle of class or instead of chazura …and I know it’s the fundamentals that will be crucial later on Of course the kids love sweets , but that is desert , you need the meat and potatoes for nourishment , then dessert is called for , Gemara bifnim is declining and becoming a rare commodity !… Read more »
Thank you for clarifying what we all knew in our subconsciousness.
This is the sad reality, we have lost focus of what’s truly important!
I will definitely focus my son on getting the gemara skills he needs.
My child has dyslexia and struggled with chumash skills. Chidon was her place to shine above all her classmates and finally feel positive about learning Torah. For kids who struggle with learning Gemara skills can finally have a chance of success with Chidon. The more Torah a child excels in the more connected they feel to Yiddishkeit and learning torah. Schools that emphasis Gemara and chumash Language skills above content end up causing a lot of learning trauma to those that have language disabilities but are very intelligent. Chidon allows these kids to excel and be educated. This article is… Read more »
This letter of the Tsemach Tzedek is so clear!
I wonder why it isn’t more famous?
We really have to get to work in teaching our kids comprehensive gemara skills…
Maybe the reason chidon is getting so much traction, is because they put so much effort and time into to making it a fun enjoyable way to learn the Mitzvos,(for example the layout of the book… Etc)
Maybe if you’d put the same effort into teaching gemorah etc. Befnim, kids would actually be interested…
Could it be that the fanfare and prizes actually help kids be motivated and maybe the chidon knows what they’re doing…(maybe they just need to find a different sponsor-not the parents)
An average melamed has by no way the means to compete with the chidon extravaganza.
Also, it’s true that melamdim should work hard. They do. But why is chidon making it impossibly hard to create excitement around gemara. It’s just not fair.
how is it chidons fault that Schools aren’t putting in the apparent need effort into our kids?!
your saying Chidon should go down in quality to match boring school class?
Why are all the sudden is there articles against Chidon? We all know how important Sefer hamitzvos is to the Rebbe. Here there is an opportunity for kids to know all 613 mitzvos! Why are people complaining?? Let’s be honest, our kids did not know Gemara perfectly before Chidon, and if it is worse now, Chidon is NOT the cause of that! Let’s be happy that our children are using their FREE time to study Torah!
The Rebbe’s mivtza about sefer hamitzvos was to learn the same shuir daily as all yidden to unite yidden…not to study the 613 mitzvos…
Let’s ask the question again:
Who is the board of rabbis / mechanchim in Tzivos Hashem?
Are they qualified to create curriculum?
Look at the videos they put out, and answer the question yourself.
the one who wrote up the curriculum was Rabbi Wenger A”H of Montreal
Chidon staff are askonim, not mechanchim
Girls are gaining tremendously in general knowledge and they love the whole chidon experience !! Its a WIN WIN for girls for sure!!!
Now that we are focusing on what the Chidon is or isn’t doing, let’s focus on your article and discuss what you are doing wrong. Do you make sure that the children in your school (I.e. 4th graders) understand Mishna before jumping to gemorah? Do you learn nach with them? What about dikduk so they can understand the tenses in a rashi or in a maamar (yes, you need that even for a maamar). How strong is their ability to reason or critical thinking before taking on a complicated gemorah? How well have you built them up to that level?… Read more »
Period.
Chidon staff have joined the conversation 😂
Each child is different. Chidon in its current form is an excellent program for so many children. If you don’t think Chidon is suitable for your child, don’t enrol them. A lot of ‘out of the box’ kids flourish in this program. Parents of these kids are happy to pay the fees. ‘one size fits all’ rarely works. My child has little interest in going to Mesivta because he thinks general studies is more interesting. I am happy for him to stay in a mainstream Jewish day school. He loves Chidon and this program has been fantastic for him and… Read more »
That has such a narrow minded one dimensional view of chinuch. We are talking about two different sets of skilled required! Draw a ven diagram chidon learning and Gemara bifnin, they are two different skills sets with an area of overlap For those that learn chidon properly, the skills they acquire doing so DEFINITELY enhances their long term learning overall! Chidon trains kids in hasmada, focus to detail, training kids to review, on the iyun track they compare and contrast ! Chidon was a lifesaver for my underchallenged 4th grade son who never had to study or review at all… Read more »
The chidon is an excellent avenue for learning the entire Rambam and mitzvos.
Are you saying that it takes away from learning gemara?? Then get better at teaching gemara,
You want to remove a good product (chidon) because it’s taking attention away from another product (Gemara). So do better at teaching gemara.
Make expensive trips for Gemara learning. Why does Chidon need to cancel because boys and girls are interested in it over the lesser appeal.
“Make expensive trips for Gemara learning”
NO. How about return proportions of sanity back to how we are mechanech (and incentivise) our kids?!
As a Magid Shiur for the last 19 years to Mesivta age bochurim, I would add:
Many students enter the Mesivta not being able to READ properly. This is definitely NOT the fault of the Chidon, however once this conversation is being had, it’s important to know what the issues to rectify are.
Rabbi Roth , thank you so much , for teaching me many blatt gemara thoroughly with a clear and clean approach to rashi and tosfos ,
and for caring about me in my prime teenage years…
I am forever grateful
Chidon you can learn on your own and on you tube
Gemara you need an ibergegebener teacher
Stop blaming chidon for every problem you or our kids have! Chidon is not responsible to teach you kids gemara. Chidon only enhances a kids chayos in learning! Learning leads to more learning!
To tzivos Hashem, keep up your amazing work, and don’t be bothered even reading this nonsense yetzer haraniks!
My older sons didn’t learn Chidon it wasn’t a big thing then, they went through the yeshiva system minimally involved. My middle son was a hard core Chidon participant, did kol hatorah kuala, with metals, stage etc. Today he is flourishing in Mesivta and a great learner and on a different track then his older brothers. recently one Friday night my boys were talking, and my older sons were so inspired by their younger brother’s torah knowledge that they decided to start learning more. In our house my Older kids didn’t do it and now all my younger ones follow… Read more »
I disagree with this article.
We need educators who understand the point, purpose, and CHIDUSH of Tomchei Timimin; to create a FULL, WHOLESOME, ALL AROUND, MENTSCHLICH, HEALTHY CHOSID.
I can’t believe we have mechanchim who summarize the entire point of our kids schooling as having gemorra skills.
The focus of yeshivas is for our children and bochurim to learn niglah and chassidus. See sicha of אחרון של פסח תשל”ו.
True it’s important to ensure our children are full, wholesome, all around mentshlich and healthy chasidim.
But to forget the main goal of yeshiva is not education, it’s negligence.
but sounds like a yeshivah problem not a chidon problem
In the early days Chabad had a Litvishe gadol, Rav Gustman give a gemera shiur. There are more than enough talented yungerleit in Lakewood who could teach our children how to learn gemera bfnim and give them a geshmak in learning.
We send shluchim there. Let them return the favor and be the Gemara Rebbeim of our children.
Anyone who thinks that we need to go to Lakewood for gemara because we do not have it, is lacking in understanding of what Lubavitch is. We have everything we need it just needs to be applied properly. The only excuse non-lubavitchers have for not learning chassidus is that they say it takes away from other learning. Unfortunately, there are lubavitchers who agree and this validates them.
As an aside, the Rebbe is the one who got rid of Rav Gustman (not long after yud shevat 5710).
I’m way older than Chidon and have children that have done it. My personal experience is, I was never taught to do a leining in gemora. We were spoonfed to the point where we learned gemara, rashi, tosfos and the ocasional rishon & achron without ever being taught how to learn a seguye in gamara alone. Chasidus on the other hand I am able to sit down myself with tanya, likutei torah, sichas, mamorim and can really learn with a hurvanyeh without any translations. when I was in my 30’s I tried to teach myself how to do a leining.… Read more »
I didn’t know how to learn gemara my entire mesivta life and for most of zal. I think it was a mixture of lack of maturity, lack of koch in learning gemara (wasn’t something my baal teshuva father knew how to do) and teachers who didn’t know how to reach beginner students and give them the skills needed (mostly it was throw us into the deep end and survive). But I excelled in other areas like Mivtzoyim and learning how to learn sichas and maamorim on my own. I always wanted to learn how to learn everything in including gemara.… Read more »
The Chidon is extra curricular and should not substitute what’s being learned in class BUT to say that it takes away from class in incorrect 1. Gaining mastery of Halachos and Mitzvos only enhances Gemara learning. 2. Some students may struggle with Gemara but find this way of learning to be easier. 3. Extra curricular studies (especially the boost of self confidence from achievement) only enhances student self esteem and therefore also how the student is in the class 4. They’re excited about learning! Don’t ruin it! 5. If you want the students to be into Gemara, let’s make it… Read more »
I watch the buchorim sit in shiur and pay attention. They can understand a gemara or סברה that is explained to them. As soon as you ask them to sit in zal and learn or attempt to read a piece of gemara they totally zone out. They are sitting in front of a book in a foreign language in which they can recognize the letters but not more than that. I’m not against the Chidon. I think it’s a nice program and definitley adds a חיות in learning and fills a void of incentivized learning. Can you just imagine if… Read more »
The “Gemara” issue is a completely different problem. It has no connection to the boys learning Chidon “after school. ” If anything, the Chidon is helping our students be more knowledgeable about Mussagim in Torah. Schools owe a lot to the Chidon. If you want to know why our boys are heading to Mesivta with weak Gemara skills, it’s because for the most part schools don’t have a game plan. Many schools will have their students learn 20-40 pages of Gemara over their elementary school years, master 350 Gemara vocabulary words, and hope and pray that their students can learn… Read more »