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Tuesday, 22 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 25, 2019

    A Note to My Son’s Mashgiach

    From the COLlive inbox: A mother of a bochur writes to the heads of his yeshiva - "nobody ever got hurt with kindness." Full Story

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    Great Point
    Guest
    Great Point

    I agree 1000%!
    In the Shmona Esrei, we start with all the Ovos and close just with Avrohom – Mogein Avrohom. Why? because Avrohom represents Chesed and in general and especially in our time, it is all about Chesed and love. That is what we have to show our Students and ultimately this will keep them close.

    another mother
    Guest
    another mother

    AMEN!

    so true
    Guest
    so true

    its sad that we have to write this to the Menahlim. i put several boys thru yeshiva. unfortunately all the negative things happen more often than the positive ones. im not sure a 27 year old menahel has the ability to recognize what you said. they think they are still head counselors in camp. they don’t have life experience and aren’t mentored properly.

    Mashgiach
    Guest
    Mashgiach

    Rabbi wilschanski in ot is an example of a mashgiach who smiles. Guys really like him!

    parents
    Guest
    parents

    you should do proper research on a yeshiva before you send your child, you could of found out if the has the above issues or not. kol tuv.

    a father
    Guest
    a father

    I am greatful that my son’s yeshiva YOEC has Rabbis Thayler and Farkash who enforce rules with kindiness and caring.

    Agreed!
    Guest
    Agreed!

    100% I hope that this will be taken to heart by those who need to hear it. Unfortunately, many of the staff in Yeshivas they think that crushing Bochurim is what will make them into Chasidim while love, compassion, empathy and genuine care for a Bochur would accomplish a lot more and leave a lasting impact on this Bochur for the good. We can look at our Rebbe for an example.
    It would be great if staff in Yeshivos would have to undergo training in education like the staff in schools do instead of thinking that they are above it all…

    to the auther
    Guest
    to the auther

    then your son does not belong in yeshiva

    go send your child to the army and write them this letter

     kindness never hurt anyone
    Guest
    kindness never hurt anyone

    press define kindness. Taking away a knife from a child is also kindness…..

    This is the issue
    Guest
    This is the issue

    “Signed,
    A mother.”

    Leave it to the pro’s who don’t have a biased opinion.

    Eli
    Guest
    Eli

    This should also be sent to every school not just posted online

    Teachers in OT this is for you 100%%%%%

     Enforcement with Warm genuine love
    Guest
    Enforcement with Warm genuine love

    I love it… It’s so true…and hope the words will be implemented.

    "Nobody ever got hurt with kindness."
    Guest
    "Nobody ever got hurt with kindness."

    Misplaced kindness can be extremely damaging to a Mesivta Bochur. Allowing a Bochur unlimited freedom is very dangerous.

    Article true. comment 3 has a point but false
    Guest
    Article true. comment 3 has a point but false

    To comment 3, I understand where you are coming from, but there aremany capable 27 year olds who have been very succesful in the world as well as in the ruchniyusdike velt, theymay not have as much “lif experience” per se but they can have more mentorship and even on a steady relationship with an experience person that even older people are not doing. There are many qualified young individuals out there, with an interest, passion and understandingfor education and with the right guidance they can go a long way. Unfortunately not everyone is capable, but you can say the… Read more »

    As a guy who was in yeshiva not long ago...
    Guest
    As a guy who was in yeshiva not long ago...

    …I have to say this: What you’re saying sounds nice. But it just doesn’t work. I went through a lot of mashgichim in my years in yeshiva. Bochurim step all over the nice ones. We loved them, but only because of how easy it was to take advantage of them. Bochurim are smart, and they are ALWAYS looking for ways to game the system. Having a nice Rosh Yeshiva, a nice Magid Shiur, a nice Mashpia… that’s great and that’s important. But nice Mashgichim simply don’t last, and there’s a reason for it. And yes, I’m aware that nice doesn’t… Read more »

    Amen
    Guest
    Amen

    This goes for ALL boys. I would, though, like to add that boys who try, but have learning problems need that little extra “warmkeit” from the magidei shiurim, not just the menahel. These are the kids who will c”v leave the derech after having negative attitudes towards them in place of a little care and understanding.
    Maybe yeshivas should start hiring people with experience with teenage boys instead of hiring young, newly marrieds or those who have no “chush” for the position.
    Our boys deserve as much care in yeshiva as they get at home.

    Very true
    Guest
    Very true

    This is very im

    this should be translated into every language and posted in every yeshiva all over the world
    Guest
    this should be translated into every language and posted in every yeshiva all over the world

    Well said! I have personally witnessed a boy broken by the “27 year old behaviour – actually it was much younger” and then his rehabilitation by the treatment you suggest. To no.3 we have to get at them until they do understand because in the worst cases……..

    Wow!
    Guest
    Wow!

    What a powerful letter! I must commend you for the respect and dignity in which you share your thoughts! Kol hakavod! As a mother and a teacher I agree with you fully. Unfortunately some of our mechanchim bring their own stress and thier own experiences in yeshiva with them . I have had encounters with mechanchim many times and agree with you totally. They way I handled it to minimize the trauma for my son was to be very honest with him. I explained to him that mechanchim need to be respected completely but to always remember they are a… Read more »

    little kids
    Guest
    little kids

    we have little kids running our yeshivas.got power im”h when they will have there own children they will understand what it means to hurt someones feeling.. also they have ni idea what happens in homes of large families, which could explain why a boy could come late etc. yemin mekarevess.

    Excellent
    Guest
    Excellent

    I have just finished several years in yeshivah and can personally testify the vast majority of teachers do not seem to understand or agree with the above, unfortunately. Perhaps they have some ground for their reasons and approach but if they only looked at bochorim after yeshivah and how many issues that COULD easily be a result from their negative experience (low self esteem for example). This letter is a nice way to start the discussion and arguments but not even close to making a change. The teachers need to have training in dealing with TODAYS bochorim – hence the… Read more »

    Penina Metal
    Guest
    Penina Metal

    This mother has got it right 100%. Mechanchim of all mosdos, including the girls’ schools, hold within their hands the power to empower their students for the good, or they can leave their mark in a negative manner that will unfortunately impact on a child for life. Mechanchim have to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their hashpaa to either make or break the spirit of their students. They have to be role models, not only during school hours but 24/7. b/c the students are watching you! May the New Year be one of hatzlacha for mechanchim… Read more »

    100%
    Guest
    100%

    I’ve been on the receiving end of that sort of negative experience. The writer point is 100% correct and relevant!

    to #3
    Guest
    to #3

    It’s the 27 year old menahel who has a good chance of actually understanding-and relating normally- to your child.
    The 60 year old may be a lamdan, but his grasp of today’s young men…???

    postville yeshiva
    Guest
    postville yeshiva

    postville yeshiva is where me and many of my friends learnt, all your points are fully met in that yeshiva, I hope all other yeshivos would fallow them, its worth the extra mile!

    The Point
    Guest
    The Point

    Using the knowledge and experience gained from years of a complete and thorough education on how to teach, and of-course the added courses in organization planning and management that were acquired by those running the schools, is there any doubt the system works.

    # 15 is explaining # 8
    Guest
    # 15 is explaining # 8

    agree with both of them

    Hanhola do not read COLlive (hopefully)
    Guest
    Hanhola do not read COLlive (hopefully)
    Sometimes to apologize would be okay!
    Guest
    Sometimes to apologize would be okay!

    My son, now in his middle twenties, says there is one person who he will always remember hurt his feelings, and picked on him and its a bit hard to forgive him. Only one person – a mashgiiach in mesivta. Sometimes I feel like calling that person and telling him what my son said – maybe he should apologize for embarrassing and putting my son down – for his own sake. (I ‘m not sure the mashgiach will have the sensitivity to understand the problem of his attitude even today – if he wasn’t able to 10 years ago.)

    Yeshva not school
    Guest
    Yeshva not school

    Wa wa wa send your son to bais rivkah

    moishe yosef engel
    Guest
    moishe yosef engel

    I would like to share a vort I heard from a special chosid reb moishe rubin a”h about 50 years ago it had a major impact on my life dos vos men ken nit oiftuhn mit guten’s vet men mit shlechten’s avadai nit oifthun that which cannot be accomplished with goodness (kindness) will surely not be accomplished through harshness (severity) I would like to tell all leaders, teachers, bosses etc. ONE MUST LEARN TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN FIRMNESS AND MEANNESS many bosses think that they are acting firmly when they are really acting meanly and thus their message has no impact… Read more »

    dignity is what the mother means
    Guest
    dignity is what the mother means

    dignity is what we are talking about. its not about age its not about hard or soft. its all about being or NOT BEING a mechanech. if u r not so get out and don’t destroy lifes.
    trust yourself when you see an rude man who has no ability to be a teacher but knows how to read. fight them and don’t give up easy on your children. after 120 they will thank you.
    we have planty good for nothing Rosh Yeshives. a few already closed shop. good for us.

    Kindness misunderstood
    Guest
    Kindness misunderstood

    When they say kindness, they do not mean letting them do ‘whatever they want’. They mean that when rules are enforced, they are enforced with respect and civility. You can be as strict as you want in your demands (and uncompromising if necessary) but you don’t have to demean, threaten, shame, or condemn a child to do so. A firm demand from a caring and committed person is harder to disobey than a ferocious shout from a thoroughly detested and insulting person.

    From #21 to #8 #15 and others:
    Guest
    From #21 to #8 #15 and others:

    You raise valid points, however what you are and almost everyone here is failing to realize is that the correct educational and productive approach is not left to any ones digression.

    It is up to the professionals in this area (understanding the psychology of people, teenagers, education etc.) to determine what and how it needs to be done. That’s why, as I suggested already in comment #21,that the teachers should go through training and the good news is that there are frum institutions for this purpose. Why not?

    Treat it as you would treat a medical issue.

    Rabbi Wilschansky Oholei Torah
    Guest
    Rabbi Wilschansky Oholei Torah

    is a mashgiach who cares

    REALITY CHECK
    Guest
    REALITY CHECK

    Most members of hanhalah are learned people with nominal or non-existent experience in child rearing or character building. Yes, they can work with their own kids (and even then, sometimes…) but the diversity of complexity in a Yeshiva atmosphere requires more than a bochur who got married and landed himself a ‘job’ in a Yeshiva. I dare say this – but the Litvishe Yeshivos have mashgichim that are considerably older and therefore better experience and warmth in their Yeshivos. I say this painfully, but if you want to know why so many of our boys are going off the way,… Read more »

    Younger grades too
    Guest
    Younger grades too

    This letter applies to the Rebbes of younger grades too, this yelling at students is unfortunately the new method of abusive discipline. If you can’t get control go get help or find a different profession.

    Rabbi Wilschanski is awesome.
    Guest
    Rabbi Wilschanski is awesome.

    OT Bochurim are really lucky to have him as a Mashgiach

    Variety
    Guest
    Variety

    Perhaps, every mechanech should read and sign that this letter was read. Have all mechanchim read Mamar Kelalai Hachinuch Vehadrachah ? Ch 8 ? where the Rebbe emphasizes that Chinuch must be designed/adjusted to the individual talmid. The Rebbe points out that people/Talmidim Vary and each has to be addressed accordingly. – printed as addendum to Sefer Hasichos 5703. Rabbi Y Gordon שי relates that the Rebbe RYYTZ as menahel of Yeshivas Tomchai Temimim gave a kenas (to withhold seudas yom tov) to a bachur to teach proper hanhagah. At the time of seudas yom tov the rebbe RYYTZ (menahel)… Read more »

    Awesome Letter!!
    Guest
    Awesome Letter!!

    Good job MOTHER!!
    Thanks for caring about us Bochrim!
    I couldn’t agree more!!!

    to # 35
    Guest
    to # 35

    are you his brother or son?

    From #21 (and #34) to #36
    Guest
    From #21 (and #34) to #36

    Although we seem to agree in a more general sense, and teachers do need a training course, never the less intellectually honesty demands being open to hear both sides of the coin.

    If you look in Rambam (Hil. talmud torah ch. 2 H. 2) cited in Shulchan Aruch Harav, you will see room for argument and the commentaries there gives us plenty of room for discussion (enough to make a record for most commented article in COLlive history!).

    Hence this needs to be completely left to the experts and extreme and possibly offensive comments should not be used so freely.

    well said!
    Guest
    well said!

    The only reason why wilksberry is the place it is, is because they teach with love, I wish it was around in my day………..

    So Right!
    Guest
    So Right!

    I think the mothers of Bochrim in yeshiva should,
    cook instead of yeshivas food, everyone loves moms food!
    And most yeshivas have terrible food!

    Anon
    Guest
    Anon

    #30 That was funny. You have a sense of humor.

    no joke
    Guest
    no joke

    To #30. I am a student in beis rivkah. I hope someone reads this letter!

    On a positive note......
    Guest
    On a positive note......

    I am 47 and I still remember how my first grade teacher and my fifth grade teacher embarrassed me in public! The good news is that now that I am a teacher I know exactly what NOT to do!!!

    Negative results for the teacher too...
    Guest
    Negative results for the teacher too...

    When it comes to shidduchim etc… People avoid these teachers and their families.

    YESHIVOS GOT HURT WITH KINDNESS
    Guest
    YESHIVOS GOT HURT WITH KINDNESS

    NUFF SAID

    #44
    Guest
    #44

    I second that!!

    Agree 100%
    Guest
    Agree 100%

    Couldn’t agree more. I can’t even measure the how horribly I was affected in Yeshiva when my mashgiach treated me like dirt. Nor can I even begin to describe the positive impact that a kind and caring mashgiach had on my life. These guys are dangerous for bochurim.

    Rabbi Engel
    Guest
    Rabbi Engel

    Well said. We should heeed this advice from a master mechanech.

    to Number 1
    Guest
    to Number 1

    In Torah Ohr in this weeks parsha The Alter Rebbe writes that we are misayem the bracha with magen avraham because Avraham was the midah of unbounded chesed and unbounded chesed is NOT APPROPRIATE therefore we say Magen Avraham because we want Hashem to shield and hold back the Chesed so that it should only be given out appropriately. If Chesed were to be unbounded then it would be impossible to eventually destroy and slaughter the klippos and forces of evil because unbounded Chesed would continue to give chayos to klippa.

    disgusted with where education is going
    Guest
    disgusted with where education is going

    I wasnt in yeshiva too long ago and now I’m in education. Education is about shaping students into people that can become a part of society, and help the big picture. Yes you sent you dear child to school, and your worried how they will react to it, but it’s a teachers purpose is not to make sure the kids are happy and content. Sometimes a bochur needs a push, it may seem negative, but in the right direction. If a student can’t handle the harshness of a mashgiach or teacher, then that student has to pull up his pants… Read more »

    The Klaley hachinuch vey hahadracha ma'amer
    Guest
    The Klaley hachinuch vey hahadracha ma'amer

    The Freirdike Rebbe gave mashgichim and mashpiim a HANDBOOK how to mold bochurim into temimim. He wrote it for his father so it would be USED, not on a shelf. If the yeshiva employees do not use this handbook, how can they claim to be a Chabad mosad??? The ma’amer clearly defines appropriate language and behaviour of any mechanech or madrich. and the damage that can be caused if r”l the job is not done kindly. MANDATORY constant study of this ma’amer is the only way to be doing this job right. It is not just for Yeshivos but for… Read more »

    Angry
    Guest
    Angry

    To #54. You sound like an angry person. Maybe if you would have had been given more warmth you wouldn’t be so angry !

    Want A Eitz' Za?
    Guest
    Want A Eitz' Za?

    Send your child to The Yeshiva Of Coral Springs!!!

    a staten island mother
    Guest
    a staten island mother

    I love this letter- of course written by a mother who never went through the boys system- cuz I’m sure your husband said – we all survived the other way!! Personally we sent our boys Staten Island – a yeshiva that thrivesnon NO rules!!! each boy is there because they WANT to be there and they want to learn- hence no need for rules. there is encouragement, support, a listening ear and a watchful eye for the boys 24/7. thank you Rabbi Heller for having the vision and wisdom to start this Yeshiva and for all the fantastic mashpiem and… Read more »

    Hold on
    Guest
    Hold on

    The problem starts when people start making assumptions, not the educators in the הנהלה are out to get you. Yes, if your son comes home one day and tells you that the Mashgiach told him all about something. Maybe it was for, as I have FullWrite will figure something but then again you have to remember that your son may not always be telling you the full story, this doesn’t always mean that your son is lying however it is always difficult for people to admit that own guilt. As a parent it is completely expected for you to feel… Read more »

    current zal Bochur
    Guest
    current zal Bochur

    After studying in YOEC I can say I had a fairly decent experience with the mashipiem and Hanholo in general..but unfortunately sometimes teachers or English principals don’t realize how their “behaviour/ attitude” affects bochurim

    # 54 has to be fired from whatever education pos he's in!!
    Guest
    # 54 has to be fired from whatever education pos he's in!!

    Are you nuts? You’re exactly the kind of people this mother is talking about. One of my sons was in a Yeshiva run by 26-27 year olds. What a disaster – I had to insist on speaking to the one who’s getting my tuition bec obviously he was older (the parent of one of the 26 yr olds)….. Thankfully, I took my son out in time before too much damage was done by these rude, obnoxious individuals. B”H the next year he was in a wonderful, warm Yeshiva where he was cared about as an individual. Children aren’t cookies -all… Read more »

    toronto product
    Guest
    toronto product

    Rabbi Oster in Toronto, although you were really strict on us and I didn’t agree with some radical things you made us do….

    I appreciated the fact that you cared for us, and that was noticed by all of us…

    Your a true person and keep up the good work…
    Proper discipline is nothing to do with anger.

    to my son's messivta
    Guest
    to my son's messivta

    Agree 100% with 16

    Thank you for bringing out an important point
    Guest
    Thank you for bringing out an important point

    Well written and not criticizing!!many of out children go away because their states don’t have a proper yeshiva environment!!boys at 14 or 15 can be homesick but it’s not “cool” to tell anyone!!!ive spoken to many who said they were miserable though they make it through!!a good professional mechanech will NOT be taken advantage of if e does things with love!!!there are many who know how to do it -yet there Re other teachers who love the power an their negative approach can do lots of damage!!pleaae be careful with our children!!(if a mechanech is there to teach he must… Read more »

    To#54
    Guest
    To#54

    I agree. You don’t sound angry to me.

    Rabbi Rodal
    Guest
    Rabbi Rodal

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention Rabbi Rodal from Chovevei , who went out of his way to not only be kind to the boys but direct them to be the best they can be. He helped them choose their next Yeshivos which I think will end up setting the tone for their future. I have tremendous gratitude for someone who helps children stay on the path and listens to what the kids have to say.

    To #3
    Guest
    To #3

    Are you saying that NOBODY who is if age 27 can possibly be capable of being a good menahel…..?
    Don’t you think that’s a bit of a blanket statement…?

    handbook
    Guest
    handbook

    To #55 how can i get a copy of that handbook. i would like to have a copy. Perhaps it would be a great idea to have it brought off the shelf and publicized and then distributed again to all mechanchim.

     # 68
    Guest
    # 68

    Mamar Kelalai Hachinuch Vehadrachah is printed as addendum to Sefer Hasichos 5703 in Hebrew (original).
    I would guess it’s printed in other places and translated and printed in English somewhere.
    Are any librarians reading ? Please help.

    #39
    Guest
    #39

    I was told by one of the children of R Nochum Labkovsky O”H That when he was a Mashgiach in Yeshiva and had to give a bochur a knas of not having breakfast, he would then bring the Bochur to his house and give him breakfast, for how could a bochur learn without eating.

    kehos
    Guest
    kehos

    kehos has the maamer “klolei hachinuch vehahadrocha” translated in english

    Chinuch Lamar
    Guest
    Chinuch Lamar

    Number 7 has it right on!! Well said

    #70
    Guest
    #70

    Thank u for sharing!absolutely beautiful
    . We have so much to learn from that!

    I'm #55
    Guest
    I'm #55

    B”H besides the simple translation from Kehos, there are many recent translations of this ma’amer with explanations. The two that stand out are Rabbi Yekutiel Green’s (from Kfar Chabad) one “The Principles of Education and Guidance” and Rabbi Yitzchok Ginsberg’s one “The Art of Education”.
    It is a phenomenal work, written upon request of the Rebbe Rashab when the Rebbe Rayatz was only 17 years old! And his father helped him focus it.
    It is THE guide for effective chinuch. A MUST READ for all mechanchim and even for parents!!!

    a girls perspective
    Guest
    a girls perspective

    I am a girl who went through the lubavitch system and it is just as important for mechanchos to be positive. I am a normal girl who got told off too often to count and though I may have a tougher exterior than most, it hurt bad. Encouragement was few and far between. I have a lot of personality as do many other young boys and girls today BH. Those involved in education need to be train to hone our talents and personality as opposed to destroying them. Great article! Great mom!

    Ariel
    Guest
    Ariel

    The old ways are best, kids today need to build character.

    Number 15
    Guest
    Number 15

    You are SO right!

    Read This till the end
    Guest
    Read This till the end

    I feel that the writer is very true with her words. I have 9 brothers that went through Yeshiva. When u ask them which Teacher they enjoyed the best they all say the same one and that’s because not only was he an amazing and inspiring teacher but at the same time he was also very warm and understanding. And these memories of being in his class where the atmosphere was full of love for learning and respect for the teacher who respected them – r the memories that are still with them today and will remain with them for… Read more »

    To number 8
    Guest
    To number 8

    You’re probably one of those frustrated souls working as a mashgiach letting out steam on poor bochurim you can’t relate to. I don’t think you belong working in a yeshiva, go to a slaughter house if you need to spill blood

    Mesivta Experience
    Guest
    Mesivta Experience

    I had a horrible experience with my mashgiach in the “best” yeshiva which will affect my life forever.
    Every yeshiva should read this article and comply 100%.

    OT = Out of Touch by a Father
    Guest
    OT = Out of Touch by a Father

    “Mashgiach” do not talk with the bochurim accept give a sheur!? They punish the parents by knass or call down. The rebbe and not encouraged to listen to any teen problems!? They end up without any skills. The building is depressing. 7:30 am – 9:30 pm = 14 Hours!
    Mikvah? go earlier or forget it.
    EMAIL parents re events/status etc? NOT
    Late a minute = sent home.
    Total = 0 skills.
    GOOD LUCK!

    new haven
    Guest
    new haven

    go meir chaim

    X