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Thursday, 17 Nisan, 5784
  |  April 25, 2024

Live: Inaugural of Gett Abuse Series

Join Live at 10:30 PM ET: At the urging of rabbonim, COLlive.com is launching a new series this Motzoei Shabbos 10:30 PM: Gett Abuse, an honest discussion based on halacha and hashkafa. Guests: Rabbi YY Jacobson and Rabbi Avraham Kahan. Live

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Question
May 28, 2021 12:04 am

Would any of these leading Rabbis wish to clarify what the impetus was to make the request at this particular time?

answer
Reply to  Question
May 28, 2021 7:38 am

Why does anything happen at a particular time?
Because it’s needed and people need to know, men and women, what it is and how it’s used. And hopefully how it can stop.

I hope you never are in the situation of this terrible abuse.

Quiet no more.
Reply to  Question
May 28, 2021 8:02 am

It started a few months ago when it became know that a women was waiting 10 years for a get. One special women on social media has made a great movement to help women such as her and since then many women have obtained their gets. Some women are waiting 10,17, even 35 years to obtain a get become public knowledge. Before it was very hush hush and these women were sitting in quiet. These women don’t have to suffer anymore and there are righteous women / men who are working tirelessly to free these women from this abuse.

Because
Reply to  Question
May 28, 2021 10:11 am

Recently alot of topics are being addressed openly before,it’s the times we’re living in, and just recently there were discussions on collive on eating disorders,selfharm and post covid anxiety in children. This topic of gett abuse is very important ,and it shouldn’t stop here.

Yasher Koach
May 28, 2021 12:34 am

👏🏆💪🙌

Truth
May 28, 2021 12:45 am

Its important to remember that men can be victims too. There have been a number of cases of wives holding husbands hostage, and all too often its men who get blamed.

answer
Reply to  Truth
May 28, 2021 7:39 am

it clearly says men too. And it’s men speaking and moderating. I’ve never seen them forget about the men.

Man can give a gett
Reply to  Truth
May 28, 2021 7:41 am

Doesn’t the man have the say when it comes to a gett? She doesn’t have a say in it,he can give or not and a woman doesn’t have the power to give or refuse a gett.

Cherem d’Rabbeinu Gershom
Reply to  Man can give a gett
May 28, 2021 10:02 am

He can’t divorce her against her will.

Some rabbis
Reply to  Man can give a gett
May 28, 2021 10:08 am

Hold that a women has the right to choose not to accept the gett. Both parties have to agree.

Not true
Reply to  Man can give a gett
May 28, 2021 2:08 pm

Women can and do refuse. They also receive the get and then seek to destroy men in secular court, alienate their children from him, lie openly and use the secular system to inflict severe life changing damage on him. Rabbis and people I’m the community enable this abuse on a massive scale.

Men do the same
Reply to  Not true
May 28, 2021 4:38 pm

Men also use the courts and legal system against their exes

Yes!
Reply to  Men do the same
May 30, 2021 1:25 pm

I know of a woman and child who suffered trauma of being dragged to court because the man just couldn’t stop his abuse and control over her even after divorce. Court battles should always be avoided as much as possible unless there’s really no alternative.

Women can refuse to accept a get
Reply to  Man can give a gett
May 29, 2021 10:41 pm

The Jerusalem Beis Din has imposed an ongoing weekly fine on a woman who refuses to accept a get from her husband The fine of NIS 1,250 a week was approved by Chief Rabbi Dovid Lau and also received the legal approval of Supreme Court Chief Justice Esther Hayut. The couple involved in the case married 30 years ago in the United States, have eight children and immigrated to Israel about 15 years ago. They have had ongoing marital problems and over the years many attempts have been made to resolve their disputes. Eventually, the members of the Jerusalem Regional… Read more »

Ummmmmm
Reply to  Truth
May 28, 2021 7:57 am

Most the time it’s the men
Rare cases it’s the women
Most Time it’s the men
Who refuse to gett
Ik a mother in ch who her ex hasn’t given her gett in ten years
That’s not normal so don’t telling me it the women’s fault.

You're misinformed
Reply to  Ummmmmm
May 28, 2021 3:25 pm

In America, you’re right, it’s majority the men who are withholding the get. But in Israel, it’s majority the women. This i heard from a rov.

Where did you get your information from, that you spoke so matter of factly? Is that just the way you feel? If yes, let me tell you something. By default you’re not an accurate source of information. Don’t say things without research.

Anonymious
Reply to  Truth
May 30, 2021 5:20 am

After giving the get à m’en can fight for his rights … if hé claims to be à victim…

That's nice!!
May 28, 2021 8:47 am

I think there should be more marriage education in the begining of a couples marriage such as Chossen and Kallah teachers making sure everything is ok at least until after the couple has their first child. Alot of all these negative experience could be avoided. And many couples should learn child education courses after their baby is born. Education will lead to happier marriages!

Pre and Newlywed Education is of Critical Importan
Reply to  That's nice!!
May 31, 2021 11:22 am

The above comment advocating more marriage education in the beginning of a couples marriage is the mission of my non profit in Eretz Yisrael Together in Happiness/B’Yachad B’Osher.. For ten years we have been in the forefront of this cause including having a strong Chabad presence at the historic Knesset Seminar on Pre marriage Education (ie.g.,Rebbetzin Goldie Plotkin presented the Torah perspective keynote address) co hosted by my non profit in 2017. However it takes a “Village” of stakeholders including Rabbis, Rebbitzins, chatan and kallah teachers, parents and couples to commit the time and resources to make this topic into… Read more »

Important initiative
May 28, 2021 8:52 am

But maybe include a woman on your panel, especially on this topic

Why so much negativity?
May 28, 2021 9:35 am

Finally some rabbis stepping up.
This is a good initiative!
Thank you

Dr. Goldberg
May 28, 2021 1:21 pm

There needs to be accountability regarding marriage. When one side decides to abdicate responsibility and remains closed to negotiations, that means it’s time for the rabbis to take action. When the woman is refusing to take the gett, there is something called a heter meah rabbonim. When the man refuses to give the gett, there is a halacha known as bittul kidushin (marriage annulment.) There have been great rabbis who have done bittul kidushin. These rabbis include Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, The Har Tzvi and the Beit Av, to name a few. Unfortunately, due to ignorance, there is a lot of… Read more »

Moshe
Reply to  Dr. Goldberg
May 31, 2021 11:38 pm

Taking a wild bet here that you can’t read a single Teshuvah on the topic, or cite any evidence that R. Moshe Feinstein used this so-called “heter.”

Leave halachah to Rabbonim.

Dr. Goldberg
Reply to  Moshe
June 1, 2021 5:24 pm

That’s a fallacy, if I’ve ever seen one. Destroy the messenger, in order to avoid the message. If you actually bet on my knowledge on the topic of bittul kidushin, you lost your money. Happens to be, I’m one of the top experts on this topic. The laws of bitul kidushin are very complex and I am not able to post it all here. It seems that you have a problem with accountability, and you are ok with abuse of women. I doubt your issue here has anything to do with halacha. Please don’t corrupt my torah by denying that… Read more »

Thank You
May 28, 2021 2:45 pm

This is an urgent issue!
Get refusal is abuse.Period.

Losers
May 28, 2021 2:56 pm

Men that don’t give a get are not real men
Real men respect women.

2021
May 28, 2021 2:57 pm

Time for the rabbis to figure out a solution for this crisis.
This is more important than worrying about bugs in berries and broccoli.

Proud of Lubavircher Rabbis
May 28, 2021 3:41 pm

taking a stance in this important issue.

well at least this is something
May 28, 2021 7:52 pm

I suffered in a marriage and then waited over a year for a Get, only to be told my everyone how “lucky” I am that it was so short. The fact that that is the response and the other one is that people don’t understand that this “actually happens.” is a huge problem. In the old country, the men would beat the husband and actually exclude him from the community until he gave the get. Now they tell you “We can possibly issue a seiruv but most shuls in Crown Heights won’t know/may still give alliyahs….” and “there’s very little… Read more »

These men should be shunned
May 29, 2021 10:45 pm

Engaging ie befriending a get refuser is enabling the get refuser to continue his behavior

Apathy
May 29, 2021 10:59 pm

There is much apathy in the Lubavitch community regarding this issue.

People have to feel this crisis as if it was their own sister.

There are plenty get refusers in our communities.

Wake up and speak to the victims and stop enabling the abusers.

Statistics
May 29, 2021 11:01 pm

Most get refusers are men.
Small percentage of women are get refusers.

Get your facts
Reply to  Statistics
May 30, 2021 1:15 am

In America, it’s majority men, but in Israel it’s majority women. This I heard from a rov. Don’t make up facts without research.

EY vs. the rest of the world.
Reply to  Get your facts
May 31, 2021 9:41 pm

Even if EY is mainly women, (which may have something to do with the fact that the beis din sides very much with the men there)
compared to the rest of the world, where it is mainly men,

It is still MOSTLY MEN.

Thank You Choni
May 29, 2021 11:03 pm

TY Choni for getting involved.

People get upset when truth is brought out to the public.
Keep speaking truth!
Ignore the people that are trying to silence you.

CH rabonim don't do Gitin
May 29, 2021 11:07 pm

Who are competent rabbis for Lubavitch women to go to?

Response
Reply to  CH rabonim don't do Gitin
May 30, 2021 1:46 am

Crown Heights rabbonim have directed people to the Beis Din Of America.

Sources
May 29, 2021 11:15 pm

Please post the last letter of the Rebbe here
ty

Something must change
May 29, 2021 11:32 pm

If a man is found to be abusive he should not have the ability to decide to stay married or not .

Siruv is serious
May 29, 2021 11:35 pm

Playing with fire.

Huge problem
May 29, 2021 11:37 pm

Another important thing to understand.

People are not knowledgeable in abuse and narcissism.

Once one understands the nature or abuse ,these behaviors are all understandable.

Yes - crucial to understand
Reply to  Huge problem
May 30, 2021 12:30 am

That untreated emotional illness destroys any hope of shalom bayis & then the abuse is continued in Bais Din and/or secular court – whether by a husband or a wife enormous suffering is experienced. Our Rabbonim have a responsibility to recognize mental illness just as they are trained to recognize a kosher or unkosher animal. There is still way too much lack of understanding among the Rabbis and generations are suffering

Time stall
May 29, 2021 11:44 pm

Time stalling is one of the biggest tactics of abusers

Too true
Reply to  Time stall
June 1, 2021 2:27 pm

My ex husband drew things out to the last moment in 3 batei dinim. Delay delay delay in marriage and then in the divorce. It’s awful (and so expensive!!!!!)

Excuses
May 29, 2021 11:48 pm

Many abusers use “love” as a reason.

We want to stay in the marriage in the name of love .

Very common answer of the refuser

YES. It is ABUSE
Reply to  Excuses
June 1, 2021 2:29 pm

I had a “friend” tell me that the fact that he wouldn’t give me a Get showed how much he “loved” me…because he wouldn’t let me go. I was so disgusted

Team
May 30, 2021 12:14 am

Nice idea about teamwork.
However-
People help for a bit.Abusers are hard to tackle and therefore people give up after a while ,and the crisis ensues

Can't give up!!
Reply to  Team
May 30, 2021 2:23 am

Ty R Jacobson for bringing up this idea .I’m sure people who truly care and see the desperate need of a support team ,will not give up even after helping for an extended amount of time.

Thank you
May 30, 2021 12:17 am

Rav Kahan is a great clear headed Rov

We want more of you

Thanks

Jewish Press Siruv Column
May 30, 2021 12:46 am

The Jewish Press has a powerful gittin Seruv section

Impressive
Reply to  Jewish Press Siruv Column
May 30, 2021 2:25 am

If I’m not mistaken the jewish press has been on gett refuser cases for years

an ignormaous
Reply to  Impressive
June 2, 2021 9:21 am

jewish press and gittin brings negative feelings. have they always sided with the halachic side or sometimes with get refusers?

Powerful?
Reply to  Jewish Press Siruv Column
May 31, 2021 12:53 pm

How do you mean?
There are maybe 10 names on it.

Many of them for years long

Follow-up from tonight
May 30, 2021 1:06 am

This was incredible-Thank you to all the organizers.

  1. Is there a way to post the halachik sources that were quoted tonight?
  2. Is there a way to ask follow-up questions? or should we post it on collive comments?
Get abuse thank you COL
May 30, 2021 2:27 am

Thank you col this is the best things you have done for our community exposing what is going on in our community in Crown Heights. I hope there is a follow up interview.

Thank you!
May 30, 2021 2:27 am

Thank you organizers ,and thank you Rabbi Jacobson and Rabbi Kahan for this brave ,informative and amazing session .

Be very careful
May 30, 2021 3:40 am

A lot of the time activists wreck salvageable marriages and raise a storm when sitting both sides down and calming things may resolve the issue or actually save a marriage. No discussion is made of the terrible detriment that divorce has on kids (I know, there’ll be a million commentators saying that it’s not, that it’s even “good” – all real research on this issue and common sense both disagree). The sensationalization of this issue without any context is harmful, as a spouse making reasonable steps and waiting the period that Rav Hutner is reason to vilify the spouse who… Read more »

Thank You
Reply to  Be very careful
May 30, 2021 5:46 pm

Well said.
They selectively quote the Rebbe’s letters on Gittin without quoting the tens of letters (including many to wives and mothers -the potential single ones) about the importance of maintaining a marriage and the tragedy of a Gett.
In the Rebbes words- Chas vesholom.
Again and again.

Please
Reply to  Thank You
May 30, 2021 7:33 pm

The Rebbe was against abuse.
Nice try though

So one sided
Reply to  Please
May 30, 2021 11:12 pm

We are talking about gittin, not abuse. This is only an issue of abuse when one deliberately and unjustly witholds the gett or refuses to acept it to benefit or spite the other party. Giving the gett as part of a just resolution has nothing to do with abuse.

Steps
Reply to  Be very careful
May 30, 2021 9:20 pm

I’d like to see a time frame for those steps.
Does not take years and wish washy follow up.

Also if the woman is no longer interested, the man can try his hardest,but it is not up to one party to decide to stay married.

Time stalling is one of the most famous tactics they use.

not always true
Reply to  Be very careful
May 31, 2021 9:47 pm

When the fighting in the house gets bad, it’s healthier to separate and have only one parent in the home to make it a peaceful home. Kids seem much happier now. Getting reports from numerous contacts.

Anonymious
May 30, 2021 5:19 am

Thank you !!! So relieving to hear rabanim talking openly and clearing about how to deal with get abuse an Get refusers. Thank you very much

Interesting
May 30, 2021 5:26 am

Rav Kahan comes across knowing of the Rebbe’s Sichos

A breath of fresh air!

crown heights
May 30, 2021 9:30 am

I found it very respectful how they spoke about the big case in crown heights
Obviously they are trying to help bedarchei shalom and still won’t spell out his name. I daven that he has a hisorerus to do teshuva and do the right thing

Contact
May 30, 2021 12:13 pm

How does one contact Rabbi Kahan and/or Rabbi Jacobson? This was a breath of fresh air to listen to this. Thank you

Informative program
May 30, 2021 3:06 pm

Thank you and please continue.

Effects me personally
May 30, 2021 4:44 pm

I am currently separated for close to a year. I suffered for 9 long years with an emotionally Ill husband. I went to Drs and therapists until things spiraled out of control and I could no longer take care of him. I am requesting a divorce and he is not “showing up” exactly like Rabbi YY says. It is so frustrating and downright hurtful to me. After killing myself for these 9 years, I still have to go through this tormenting pain. I always thought my in laws had my back, because they knew how sick their son is. I… Read more »

You need an advcate
Reply to  Effects me personally
June 1, 2021 2:32 pm

Reach out to the bais din of America. They were able to make my ex husband come to the table. I know this suffering. I am so sorry you do too.

Yasher koach some ideas to help women
May 30, 2021 5:28 pm

It would be helpful if collive will interview dayonei chabad on this topic . Would it be possible for rabbi Ulman and Rabbi Yosef Feigelstock and some more Chabad Dayanim outside of eretz Yisroel make a committee to help agunos? Like A vaad Rabbanei Chabad bechul, leinyanei agunos? It would be helpful! Some things that I think could help women are: A list of chabad dayanim who can have authority over gittin to the exclusion of any other Chabad Rabbis who are not qualified to have opinions and have authority of dealing with matters of agunas in their communities. (since… Read more »

So one sided
Reply to  Yasher koach some ideas to help women
May 30, 2021 11:17 pm

The choice of the rabbis have to be based on criteria that would probably not be acceptable to one side or the other. As the rabbis said, you cannot force a person to use a particular beis din.

Moshe
Reply to  Yasher koach some ideas to help women
May 31, 2021 11:43 pm

In fact, almost every Lubavitch bochur receives Smicha in Yoreh Deah, which covers the laws of Kashrus (and Niddah, which bochurim don’t study). The laws of Gittin are found in Even HaEzer, together with the laws of marriage, having children and other family related laws.

Please don't use the Rebbe as an excuse
May 30, 2021 7:34 pm

The Rebbe was one of the biggest advocates of healthy marriages.

There is also a very sharp letter about the Rebbe replying to an abuser.

Abuse is never OK.

So one sided
Reply to  Please don't use the Rebbe as an excuse
May 30, 2021 11:18 pm

Who was talking about abuse. The issue is the normal situation, and facilitating an amicable divorce including a gett. Don’t take it off into abuse, whichh is much rarer and different.

Gett refusal is a form of abuse
Reply to  So one sided
May 31, 2021 10:41 am

When someone refuses to give a gett for an extended period of time, that is abuse. And is a good indicator that there was other abuse going on within the marriage. It doesn’t start with the gett.

Get refusal
Reply to  So one sided
May 31, 2021 10:55 am

IS domestic abuse.

Education and awareness
May 30, 2021 9:27 pm

CH is still very much in the dark about what domestic abuse is.

One must read up on it and get enlightened so they can understand the crisis at hand.

Abusers don’t care about rabbis or rules.
Their control and need for power completely consume them.

Many DO care about image

Don’t let them fool you with their manipulative tactics.
Learn how they operate and then you will understand how to tackle this crisis.

They are smooth talkers; very manipulative and can be quite charming.

Believe the victim and support them.

So one sided
Reply to  Education and awareness
May 30, 2021 11:22 pm

Believe the victim and support them.
Who is the victim? Is it always obvious?
No, because people lie, men and women. There are a huge number of false police complaints because lawyers advise a complaint to get the husband removed from the home with no evidence. Abuse, like every other crime, should be innocent until proven guilty in an evidence based hearing. If social services support the claim, they must show evidence why. We do not believe accusations blindly, ever.

You never know
Reply to  So one sided
May 31, 2021 12:36 pm

Filing a complaint with zero evidence Will get you nowhere and false evidence will actually work against you by social services and the courts and this applies to wether you’re a man or a woman. There’s no bias . And more often than not , men get away with abuse and woman are not believed and called liars and even abusers by their own abusers.

just to set the record straight
May 31, 2021 10:57 am

Awareness of sexual abuse was brought to CH by a series of lectures and talks arranged by Mrs. Bronya Schaffer. She just about single handedly – with no cooperation of any of our mosdos – arranged meetings and lectures with Dr. David Pelcowitz who came a whole bunch of times to speak to our community. This was in 2007-2009. He spoke with the rabbonim of CH, and the principals of all our schools. And then many talks open to the public.

You have a year
May 31, 2021 8:12 pm

This discussion shows that the Crown Heights community is keen on raising awareness with regards to the agunah crisis. Some people have been dealing with this crisis for years, and one thing that has emerged is that the gett should be given in a year. If it goes on longer than that, then it becomes very difficult to receive.

Control
May 31, 2021 9:14 pm

For the abuser, the need for revenge and control is stronger than any rabbi or halacha.

The hard- but painful truth.

He is not worried about halacha or G-d.
It is about his need to control and blame the wife for his inadequacies and failures.

Most get refusers will blame the wife for ruining the family unit.

What they fail to realize is that the unit was already broken by the abuse addiction etc .Once the marriage is broken and unsalvageable there’s no need to drag the children into the pain and suffering that an unhealthy marriage causes.

Huge red flag
May 31, 2021 9:17 pm

It is very common that the abuser will refuse help or treatment.
Many women stay in the marriage and hope the spouse will get help.

If a man refuses to get help and save the marriage that is one of the biggest red flags.

Marriage takes two parties and commitment of both people to save the marriage.

If you hear that one party refuses to allow any intervention ,recognize that this behavior is not one of someone who is seeking help and solutions .

In most cases,abusers blame the vicitim and take no responsibility for their actions.

Don't be fooled
May 31, 2021 9:21 pm

Many people in the community can’t believe that a frum man would behave abusively (physical, emotional,sexual abuse)

There are two sides to many abusers.

Don’t be fooled and think that he can not be behaving this way because he seems very religious.

It’s all a show.

Fortunately today many victims are recording the abuse so people will see the truth with their own eyes.

Seeing is believing.

Leaving a marriage
May 31, 2021 9:24 pm

It takes much strength to leave an abusive marriage.

Kudos to those women who have left unhealthy marriages and showed their children right from wrong.

Those children will make the best spouses because they can recognize toxic and unhealthy behaviors,and will choose the healthy path for themselves.

Wow
May 31, 2021 10:34 pm

The Rebbe is Amazing. Thank you for sharing this,I’ve never heard this in my life.

seek clarity
May 31, 2021 10:50 pm

rabbi kahan seems to be talented, dedicated and honest. He”s a talmid of rav meir stern shlit”a of passaic. i would be happy to know if r.kahan has the full backing of rav meir stern in this new imitative. please clarify. thank you.

seek to seek
Reply to  seek clarity
June 9, 2021 10:07 am

why all the “- ” negative replies to this comment?

Rambam Gittin 9: 5 &6
June 7, 2021 10:20 am

Similarly, if the husband makes the divorce dependent on an action,6 the same rules that govern a get that takes effect after a specific time apply. For example, [a husband] said to [his] wife: “This is your get, but the divorce does not take effect until you give me 200 zuz.” After [the woman] gives [the money], the divorce takes effect.7 In this instance [as well], there is no need to restate the condition [in both a positive and negative form], nor to comply with the other requirements of conditional agreements that we have explained. For this person has not divorced [his wife] conditionally –… Read more »

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