There is a pervasive and critically important issue in the life of a bochur that I would like to address. When you walk into a typical yeshivah gedolah, you see bochurim sitting over seforim and conversing.
They are presumably discussing whatever is inside the sefer open in front of them. It looks pretty good. What you don’t see, and you cannot see, is what they are actually discussing and how many bochurim didn’t even show up in the first place. In short, a disturbingly growing amount of bochurim don’t really do anything productive for much of their day! If you would like to know what more than a few bochurim do in Yeshiva, the answer is sleeping and socializing.
Now, this contemporary bochur doesn’t really do anything wrong per se. He hardly ever gets into any trouble; he davens, farbrengs, goes on mivtzoim, acts like a mensch, and sits in front of a sefer most of the day. What more can you ask of him?!
The problem is that there isn’t really anything ensuring that he’s actually doing something productive. It is very, very easy to sit in yeshivah for three or four years and not get anything substantial done. Why? Because yeshivah gives you a certain complacency, it’s a very comfortable place. You have everything you need, begashmius, and beruchnius. You have friends, farbrengens, mashpiim, and besides, there’s nowhere else to go for a good bochur.
In such an atmosphere, chassidishkeit and yiddishkeit can easily become a comfortable routine. You’ve arrived, you’re a good bochur and that’s it. If you think about it, this attitude is so far from what chassidishkeit and yiddishkeit are all about, it’s shocking. Torah is a journey, a constant avodah. It is strange and disturbing that us Lubavitchers of all people are struggling with such an issue. Avodah is what chassidus is all about! I know I’m only a bochur in shiur alef Zal, but bochurim seem to be the only ones capable of seeing what’s actually going on in yeshivah.
Tomchei Temimim has descended from a place of integrity, refinement, devotion to Hashem and his Torah, and intense, sincere dedication to self improvement and achievement, to a place of laziness, complacency, and bad habits.
To make matters worse, as far as I know, no one is addressing it. It seems as if most mashpiim and roshei yeshivos, are frozen in time, following the formula their predecessors laid out by example. They either don’t realize what the issues are or how important they are; or they are simply too fearful to make a move using their own creativity and initiative. A system like this is doomed to failure. It may look nice on the outside, but it is slowly cracking and crumbling at the foundation.
So all you Mashpiim and teachers out there: we respect and look up to you for guidance. Look at your bochurim and study them closely. Is this what the Rebbe wants from his elite soldiers? Figure out what’s wrong and do something about it! Many good sincere bochurim are realizing that they have to make a choice. Either choose to be in yeshivah and actually be there, or choose to go somewhere else and be there. Unfortunately, many of these more conscious bochurim, lacking direction and leadership, choose the latter, leaving the warm, nurturing, Chassideshe atmosphere of Yeshivah, and prematurely entering the cold, turbulent waters of the modern world. I have to admit that these bochurim deserve a lot of credit and respect for taking their life into their own hands and choosing to do something, and for not just sitting idle and wasting these precious years of their life.
And all you bochurim out there, stop and think. Is this what you’re here for? Don’t let these crucial years slip by. Choose to be in yeshivah. Demand more from your mashpiim. If you have issues with yeshivah, don’t let it eat away at you from the inside out. Speak to someone you admire and trust. Take the reigns and show some leadership. The future is in our hands.
This is not a complaint or a stomachache. It is a wakeup call. I hope it is loud enough that all the sleepy ones out there will wake up and look around.
Sincerely,
An ordinary bochur
he is in a main stream yeshiva he is chabad, and i was in more than one yeshiva and i know people in other yeshivos, this problem is in all yeshivs!!!
It happens in almost every yeshiva, you are just don’t see it.
still the current system would function at a higher level if parents would approach learning and chinuch bchlal on a different level!
I would like to make a few points: Most of the discussion is whether or not there is a problem, and if yes who is to blame, the Hanhalos or the lack of motivation of students, there doesn’t seem to be much being done about figuring out why we have this problem and what is the solution. The way the Yeshiva system was developed in the past few centuries, was for those Yungerleight on Kest and Bachurim who were Talmidei Chachumim and their entire life was around the Torah they learn, the Yeshiva gave them a place where they can… Read more »
” You can only help someone AS LONG AS THEY THEMSELVES WANT to be helped “,
and…..
AYN OYD MILVADO
What’s wrong with doing nothing but farbrenging. Say lchaim. And enjoy life. ….Hymie brov we takin ova
your 100% correct. and the author wrote that. the point is that just not doing anything bad is passive. and we are not passive people. eventually not doing anything good either is going to catch up with you, and then you’ve got a problem.
BEING IN THE ATMESPHERE OF THE REBBE’S YESHIVA COULD BE NO BETTER!! NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE DOING. of course it should be better….BUT UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS SO MUCH SHMUTZ OUT THERE, THE REBBES YESHIVA IS THE SAFEST HAVEN!!!!
its obviosly not basics b/c i never knew that
I am a Bochur that left public high school and has been learning in normal yeshivas (Mesivta and Zal in US and Israel) for a few years. I am a very self motivated Bochur with a good head, but I can totally understand the flaws of the system. Obviously the blame cannot be entirely on one party, students , teachers, or parents, but I personally have faced many problems in yeshivas that have caused me much frustration and pain. Even for a self motivated student, being in yeshivas is extremely difficult when you have the feeling that no one in… Read more »
basics dude
very well said i agree with you 100%
but what does BT and FFB stand for?
you really have to calm down quikly
breath in and breath out
I’d like to quote something I just read in the booklet merkaz anash put out entitled Guidance & Leadership. “…The mission of every Mashpia is not to wait until someone brings you a glass of tea or a cup of juice and begs you to share a chassidisher vort, and only then to say something to him – and even then, not bother to explain it, on the pretext that anyhow ‘a chassidesher vort never goes to waste…’ “better yet, the mashpia assures himself that since the Alter Rebbe primised that whoever is mekushar to him will be safe, there’s… Read more »
You had a good comment until you threw in the word “Moshiach!!!” after calling for both sides to farbreng. I believe in Moshiach’s coming. Every day. Rambam’s 13. The placement in the context it had was the issue. An awful lot of people around 770 and some of the shluchim crowd invoke Moshiach as the answer to everything. “Rabbi, I lost my job today…..” “So this is not a big deal. The Rebbe wants us to bring Moshiach! Focus on that!!”, so and so died “ohhh ad mosai!!!”, etc. They seem out of focus. They’d rather wave flags and play… Read more »
I don’t know where your interpretation of my comment came from, but I was not using the word Moshiach in the way you seem to have perceived it. When I mention Moshiach, I refer to a era in time when we are in a better state of existence. How that comes about can be left to belief, speculation, symbolic representation, religious tenets, and more. I never said I don’t research. Moshiach is most certainly not all I talk about.I have no idea where your fervent response came from, given that it doesn’t relate to the meaning of my comment. Wow,… Read more »
people! get out there! write letters and emails, speak to people, and get the ball rolling!
I don’t know who you are and if what you were writing was true etc BUT if you’re really like that and u want someone to “help” you a little bit u cld contact me at [email protected]
it seems to me that the commenters who are writing that they learned when they were in yeshiva and this article is a lie, are the very very few who are incredibly self motivated. for the rest of us, its very hard to feel motivated to learn in a yeshiva atmoshpere. the only real motivation is that if you dont learn you get a knas. having to pay money for small infractions is one of the main reasons why yeshiva didn’t work for me. i was in the same boat is the OP. went through yeshiva, didn’t learn jack.
He’s right cuz “Loy taamod al dam reecho”.
We must do everything possible to help our friends that chas veshalom are falling.
very nicely put! I think ur 100% right and everyone should realize that!!! IF ur the type of bochur that needs help- go to that type of yeshiva
“when u point a finger at sum1- u have 3 pointing back at u”
No one EVER said that chabad learns less than anyone else. You are WAY out line calling this antisemitic. How dare you use this as a sorry comment like that? You seem to have missed the point, and I will not tolerate your accusations because of that. I am a proud Jew, a lover of every Jew. At the same time, I take the right to express my opinion about a situation that causes me worry and distress. It is BECAUSE of my love for every Jew that I express my concern. Who ARE you? I am concerned about you… Read more »
Most of the comments ,particularly those seemingly made by bochurim themselves ,surprisingly are honest about the situation. We’re just not that interested. In yeshivas, too often parents get into disagreements with hanolo about their son ,when they are in complete denial of what their son is all about ,it’s just that the son doesn’t want to kill his parents , so he’s not really honest with them ,instead he makes the hanolo the bad guy; and so the dance begins .. So OF COURSE ,we start with honesty , and with a CORRECT DIAGNOSES , to talk about a bochur… Read more »
how do i write an op-ed?
this is a anti semitic artical not just anti chabad b/c chabad doesnt learn any less than any one else
hymie bruv we taking over 😉
Drawing upon Mr. S.Z’s comment (number 8) I would like to inform you that… The life of an adolescent is primarily sleeping and socialising. This bochur makes no chiddush. It’s the same in all yeshivas across the yeshivish and chassidish world and seminaries and colleges. There are and were always the masmidim who spend days and nights with their heads in the books. But the majority keep seder, socialise and sleep and that’s perfectly normal. It’s important to focus on the good instead of penning poorly written and pointless pieces. I assure you that in the time it took you… Read more »
Sparking some VERY important exchange! Could that mean that this is a very important topic? Could it mean that its time has come? I dare believe it IS time! I dare we need all take heed of the interchange here, and assess the situation from an honest (yes, honest) point of view. Speak to a variety of students, from a variety of grade levels. Ask them if they felt honored as a student/human/nashama. Ask them how they felt if ever they needed support and were ignored or shunned. Ask them if they ever DID need assistance. Take the positive. Take… Read more »
Oy! We are not in full disagreement! Some of your points are well-taken. Others indicate a less than full understanding. So be it. I see that we come from different backgrounds, and therefore it appears that we are informed in different ways on the subject. You say I miss the point, I say you miss the point. Gey, gezunteh heit, and continue your way. In my opinion, you are missing a vital piece of the picture. That is my opinion. It is based on 35 years of experience and very successful results. I do not change my vantage point because… Read more »
[and again, from my experience ,the students that show even SLIGHT sincerity and interest ARE helped ].. I dont know where your experience is coming from but as the article says “It seems as if most mashpiim and roshei yeshivos, are frozen in time, following the formula their predecessors laid out by example. They either don’t realize what the issues are or how important they are; or they are simply too fearful to make a move using their own creativity and initiative.” meaning that when approached, they give the classic answers over and over again, ignoring the crux of the… Read more »
does anyone have any ideas how to actually do something about this. something must be done. in a few days everyone will forget about this as humans always do and we’re back to square one!
ahem! what does chabad stand for?
Wisdom. Understanding. Knowledge.
he is obviously accessing these tools very well.
“hochaich tochiach es amisecha velo sisa olav cheit”
Dear Sir, sorry, but you’re missing the point : 1.This student you speak of ,who is 17 or older,MAY have been undermined/misunderstood ;true….and so ,pray tell me what his parents did till now ?? Has the child been assessed and tested ?? Good ! Great . We’ll find him a place to deal with his problem… 2.Do you really expect every/all “average”/”regular”/”mainstream” yeshiva,rabbinical COLLEGE to be able to cater to specific individualistic “special” cases [esp.,as mentioned above – they should have been addressed YEARS BEFORE !!] ?? To sum it up ,the first rule in education ,at this stage in… Read more »
that number 71 is bringing out a very valid point.
very interesting
….So YOU do not understand that some have been undermined for so many years, they may APPEAR unmotivated, insincere, etc. In REALITY, you have failed them. Rather, I should say the SYSTEM of education they have been placed in for so many years has failed them. There needs to be a deep study of this vitally important issue. It need to be studied in a highly informed and educated way. Learning does not begin at the yeshiva gedolah level, I’m sure you know. (I’m not clear about you write only about 18-20 year olds. Those are not totally what the… Read more »
It is clear to me that you do not understand what my comments were all about. You say I am ignorant of the reality, but that comment simply supports your own ignorance of reality. The reality is NOT ALL STUDENTS HAVE THE SAME WIRING IN THEIR BRAINS. NO TWO BRAINS ARE ALIKE. SOME STUDENTS MAY APPEAR UNMOTIVATED, LAZY, INSINCERE, ETC., BUT THAT IS NOT THE ACTUAL SITUATION! Your lack of knowledge in the field of teaching and learning actually proves my point! Learning differences are NOT excuses, they ARE realities. Medical images reveal this fact! Literally! Did you know that?… Read more »
Many bochorim who wasted their yeshivah years finally felt worth something when they got their smicha. Receiving that certificate is an honourable accomplishment. There needs to be a smicha style in yeshivah. This means to learn iyun according to halocho, (instead of -just- pilpul), and a test with a smicha on those sugyes. Of course this means a decrease in the rosh yeshivahs & magidie shiurim sharing their chidushim as much as they would like to, but their could be a compromise. This would make a world of a difference; the proof is in the smicha programs! P.s. I didn’t… Read more »
should put the NAME down!
b/c you don;t no what you r saing!!
He is talking in general not every bochur!
i think you need a psychiatrist- desperately!!
This is just a warning to mothers out there like #72- im not saying this cuz im proud of it ch”v but just so that you should know. keeping your bochur in yeshiva does not give any guarantee that he will stay frum. I did 5 years of yeshiva and in the end i left with nothing …… but like i said before im not proud if it, but it is what it is…
whos undermining it?
I THINK THE WORLD IS A WASTE OF TIME. PPL JUST DOING NOTHING WE SHOULD ALL JUST LEAVE.
most bochurim don’t do anything bc theyre not forced to, and they only do the bear minimum bc theyre forched to be there!!!
The article is definatly true !! All those who say its not are just to blind to admit the truth ( chos vesholom to say such a thing about chabad bochurim we are “elite of the elite” )
These people are blind and they are just too close minded to even think for a second that some thing may be wrong
If fact I want to hear these people say there is any problem in chabad “heirarchy” for the every
Plain and simple
this is a bad bochur who does not learn but what about all the other good bochurim who come into seder and learn for 3 hours straight
i think the problem is not that bochurim don’t want to learn, it’s they don’t know how to and therefore waist they’re time floating through yeshiva.
this artical might be true to many yeshivos but one of my years of yeshiva i went to postville iowa and there their very good with every single bochur they focus and try to learn with every single one there i can say that the hanhala and mashpiim are doing there best to make sure the bochur learns
i encourage everyone to send there son there its the best begashmius uberuchnius
the only problem is, that this isnt the place for it to be written. i think bochurim/ parents should go to the hanholas hayeshivas, and put the problems on the table. Also the hanhola’s have to start having some serious disscusions how to improve the yeshiva system that bochurim should want to learn, in a positive manner, not through punishments! p.s. i have been in many yeshivas, Manchester Brunoy, Detroit, Montreal, toronto, ohlei tora, and more, & unfortunately although there’s many good bochurim who sit & learn, there are many weaker ones that just need help & encouragement! moshiach now.… Read more »
this is all none sence just b/c you cant learn it doesnt mean the rest of us cant i was in many yeshivos and i am still in a yeshive most bochurim sit and learn even during the breaks you have absolutley no idea what your talking about
i haven’t red every thing i can bairly reed ,kol shkain spell but i did want to add that u cant train peple to learn for test becuz then 1st of all wen they learn it will only be for knoledge and if they alredy know they don’t have to learn 2nd becuz when they grow up and there is no test no smicha no reward they are yotze chasidus in the morning by reeding tanya and niglo by reeding a sicha on shabbos rachmana litzlon
Besser Unzere Ziboiris Fun Zeire Idis.
Your comment shows on where you fall into the picture
Weather wasting 99% percent of your days or that you learn these facts that all are commenting is personal
You shouldn’t be sharing them!!!
why didnt you write your name?
NO ONE IS GONNA FORCE U TO LEARN BC THEY CANT!!!! THEYRE NOT GONNA STAND NEXT TO U THE WHOLE DAY- IF U NEED THAT, GET A TUTOR!!!!! OTHERWISE- UR A BIG BOY AND U HAVE CHOICES TO MAKE. IF U WANNA LEARNT EHN ULL LEARN. IF NOT,NOT. DONT START DIAGNOCING EVERY1 W/ THE SAME PROB.
im expecting next op-ed to discuss world peace then ppl starving in africa
I witnessed what this author described in the chabad yeshivos I attended as a bochur. It bothered me no end at the time, and I witnessed scores of bochurim going off the derech, convinced that there was nothing serious to be offered or gained from the yeshivah’s broken factory belt.
what do you mean approach them directly? how? by the way i have good friends in cholon, manchester, if anyone needs to do their homework its you.
any suggestions?
there is no way whatsoever to reach the mashpiim in a private way!
if you can think of any it would help greatly
one leads to the other
I am a working Bucher I did 3 years in yeshivah my friends are ether still in yeshivah or on shlichus I do agree a lot of time is waisted in yeshiva but it is in the buchers hands if he will learn or not and if learning is not for him he should stop wasting his parents money and make something of himself.
Hey, instead of investing all your time into talking about Moshiach, how about researching ways to conduct yourself to actually bring him. Things like educating your children rather than feeding them the “sit and learn and he comes and saves us all” approach. It’s sad that in Lubavitch today there have to be so many people who feel Moshiach will just wipe away all their problems and they invest and invest and invest all their energies to bring him so they don’t have to face the reality– mainly that one must have a parnassah and can’t rely solely on shlichus… Read more »
No one disagrees with u , the teachers have to demand of themselves MORE than they demand from their students etc.etc.; and they should be EXPERTS at what they do ,etc. BUT, we FIRST MUST DETERMINE if the student is sincere , i’m afraid you’re simply ignorant about the current reality, there exist boys bet. the ages of 18-20 who simply are not really all that into learning ,and have no interest at all in doing what has to be done , so now, we can take 1 approach which says the teachers have to be magicians ,because the student… Read more »
A) Thank you COL for publishing everyone knows about this problem so I dont buy into chilul Lubavitch etc, aderabeh if we dont talk about it and keep it under the table our kids will lose out. B) I think more people should offer solution to the problem in their comments, I am a very worried parent who feels like my son is totally waisting is time in Yeshiva (only reason why I keep him there is so he will stay frum) my son feels the same about yeshiva like it is a total wait of time, In my opinion… Read more »
anyone who is arguing with this article, is either writing from the moon, (i doubt they have wifi there, so ill disclaim that), or just hasnt seen the inside of a yeshiva in recent years. as painful as it is, it is that simple. i saw a few places in recent years, and yes, you will get the bochurim that will sit the whole shebang and not talk or look up once. nut the regular bochurim, which is the vast majority of us, can very well relate to this article. i have a freind who saw this problem way earlier,… Read more »
i agrree with no. 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!
Calling all invested in this op ed, pro and con! FARBRENGEN! Moshiach! This is an important issue! In many ways, it is our future!
You and I are talking about two different issues. My point is….Teachers should be educated in their field. They should be required to get a comprehensive education in the field of teaching and learning. They should be held to a high standard for their own training for their own profession, as are other professionals such as attorneys or physicians. Not all yeshiva gedolah students will become attorneys or physicians. Teachers are responsible for ALL students’ learning environments. They must understand the complexities of learning and individual differences. Yes, some yeshiva gedolah students are close to college age. Still, each one… Read more »
these little boxes are meant for comments not essays, no one reads your piece when its longer than today’s rambam
Well written and dead on.
However, not all Yeshivos are created equal, there are some excellent Yeshivos out there that actually provide educations, not just room and board.
BTW VERY well written article. Impressive for a yeshiva bochur, it’s unfortunate that most yeshiva bachurim (myself included) don’t have a clue how to write.
The AARTS program who acredits yeshivas check out thouroughly all apsectsof the Bochurim, making sure they are learning and thenyeshivas are running well. I know in ot, they came and after 3 days of intense investigating, they gave the ot zal the highest rating possible, and we all know they are farvfrom friends f lubavitch, yet even they recognized the learning and productivity in the zal. They even met with Bochurim privately, thT they chosen to speak with.
How did all of our yeshiva discussions turn into op eds? We used to enjoy talking about why yeshiva is failing and how we can help it ect. But why are we. Posting it online!?! It loses all the geshmak! Btw go farbrange with ur Mashpia one on one and don’t get lost in the big system… F
who ever said this is true is probably a person that last time he was in a school was in his fathers tallis!!!! (arienfernish) if u wana learn u can pick up alot and I’m in a “BAD/CRAZEY/WASTE-A-YEARE ” yeshivah
about time someone is waking up regarding this system and what is there to do??? our mashipiim have to EN COURAGE those bochurim who wishing to make a true parnassa to COLLEGE, TIME CAME TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM, GREAT SOUNDS JUST GREAT.
I think the writer makes some good points. Actually, a few of my boys have complained of this exact thing to me, taking it even further, that the hanhala actually has no idea what is going on among the boys.
On the other hand, some of my other boys did very well in this system, learning really well, being very self- motivated.
In my opinion it has alot to do with the actual bochur and his own personality/level etc.
This website is always bringing out the negative in chabad education. As far as I know, some time ago a group of non-chabad educators went around to observe different yeshivos and one of them was from our city. After their visits he told me how impressed he was what he saw in the Lubavitch yeshivos comparing to non-Lubavitch ones. He said that they were impressed not only with their amount of knowledge, but also with their understanding the material and their depth more than what they saw in other yeshivos!!!! And he was not even a Lubavitcher but just an… Read more »
i agree with you one hundred percent, you must be a good bocher, yasher koach!
everything this guy said is true…
somebody needs to write an article about the yeshiva systom!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanx
that was about chidushei torah but not about wasting time on col
the problem has nothing to do with the yeshias it has more to do on the bochurs approach on yeshiva (and the system) being that these days arnt like back then is because there is a lack of patience a bochur gets thrown in yeshiva and its hard FOR E/O even the ones with a good head to sit down and break your head on a gemara especialy in a society that lives with everything instant (try to get any kid to sit and learn something for 20 min therefor a bachur gets to zal an hour you cant) unwilling… Read more »
where is the hanhala in all this they probably don’t read op-eds so who is telling the only people who can make a difference that they have a problem on there hands
not if someone is undermining it for 8 hours a day
you are so right how can you expect a kid to learn gemara if he cant even read properly
we should organize the whole yeshivah system to have credits just like college and high school to graduate you have to past tests if you don’t get all the credits you need you don’t graduate and have to redo what ever subject it may be
the only thing that really matters is if someone gets up and does something about it otherwise bochrim will just continue to go on as they are doing now and wake up at te end and realize they have nothing to show after 8 years in yeshivah
the problem of bochurim being not interested roots not in the chinuch of the system on any level rather in the parents chinuch. if parents really live with something it is conveyed automatically. values and priorities are set and the child can then benefit from the system (thats not to say the system is flawless and michanchim are perfect…sometimes aderaba…)
Whoever is saying this article isnt true or isnt true 4 everyone or wtvr, theyre denying the problem and kno that its still there! #8 ur basically saying a kid shud make his parents get only half their moneys wrth, ur saying its good that a kid learns a third or even half the time, are you out of ur mind!?!? thats like getting a 50 on a test and on a good day… Also to #33 notice how he didnt say his name OR the smicha program so theres no way of knowing who it is its not baal… Read more »
Finally an article without venom and animosity. He lays out the facts simply and I couldn’t agree with him more!
to number 10 pretty good
B”H
you are obviously from OT. bologna or boloney. not beloni. shkoiach. a chasidishe bochur.
ASK ALL THE PARENTS THAT ARE OFF THE DERECH
AND THEY WOULD LOVE THAT THEIR SON IS SITTING IN YESHIVAH SOCIALIZING
people dont realize that if the system is to tough on the bocherim they will just pick up and leave so its better they spend their time in a good atmespere than on the streets
The Rebbe was against anonimity.
HELLO? GOOD MORNING! AND WHAT DO THE HAPLESS PARENTS PAY FOR THIS SUB STANDARD CHINUCH AND HADROCHOH IN THE NAME OF OUR REBBE…….. TELEPHONE NUMBERS SECHAR LIMUD $10 /$15/$20K AND WE ARE ALL MAD ENOUGH TO PAY IT WITHOUT DISSENT. IN CHEDER, MESIFTA, SUB STANDARD THIRD RATE DISINTERESTED UNQUALIFIED REBBES, WILL SHOUT AND SCREAM AT YOUR KIDS TO CHAZER MISHNAYOIS AND TANYA FOR THEIR ANNUAL END OF YEAR COMPETITION, WHILE THE REST OF THE YEAR MAJORITY OF THE KIDS ARE NOT TAUGHT EVEN THE BASICS HOW TO READ, TEICH CHUMASH RASHI GEMORAH RASHI TOISFOIS, BUT AS LONG AS THEY KNOW… Read more »
Smicha programs are not a raiah for regular yeshivas are bad. You have a laptop with Internet when bochurim don’t. An average yeshiva has 70 hours a week in Seder itself,not including after hours lets give them 20 hours of leniency that’s still 50 hours a week! And btw ‘a good Smicha program’ is contradictory
listen to yourself …
the doctor went to great lengths to become a doctor..
so too the attorney ….
but first , they were GOOD / ACCEPTABLE STUDENTS…..,
WHILST THEY WERE IN LAW SCHOOL OR MEDICAL SCHOOL it wasn’t their teachers who got them to show up or learn etc.etc.etc.,
of course,teachers should always look for ways to improve,BUT WE ARE TALKING COLLEGE AGE over here..,
the primary focus should be on what the student is willing to do.
If we continue with your way of thinking we will never get anywhere.
This posting is only published here to evoke responses and hits and that is a travesty. This is not the proper forum to discuss this or even bring it up if one really is interested in improving matters. That said the issues raised are sadly legitimate ones that the Roshei Yeshiva and hanholoh should address and correct but as R Yoichonon Gordon O”H (Hrh”ch, Gabai Lubavitch Shbilubavitch vchu’) remarked once when someone commented that 770 was not being cleaned properly, ” I wanted to fire the person in charge (in fact the person hired to do the job was a… Read more »
# 19 is right, if there’e a will – there’s a way ! We have to start with the student ,who is legally mature,and should be expected to be responsible – like all the above people who mentioned what THEY did in school …. was it because their professor inspired them ????!!!! no, it was because they were interested… The student must be interested. He has to really want to be in yeshiva.;and agree to at least a minimal level of obligations , like : 1.showing up. 2.listening to the shiurim .3.be responsible for the material covered. Of course there… Read more »
Are you a product of the yeshiva system? I suspect you are and that your experience was some time ago. Maybe it’s not the same now. You seem angry and defensive. I can understand that. You want the love you have for your beliefs and practices to be shared and respected by others. Would you consider taking an honest look at the situation? Could you then participate in a farbrengen to share in a caring atmosphere of concern?
If more than one student has a similar experience there, then it merits attention! Is that not obvious? You can blame the students all you want, but they ARE STUDENTS! As teachers we are suppose to do that! Teach! But if so many students are not learning, then you are the one with the paid job, don’t you think? There’s a lot to teaching. Sometimes I think some “teachers” do not understand the vast influence they can have in bringing their students to their very high potential. Maybe if THEY had has more informed teachers, they would now know that… Read more »
this sounds nice and all but…..its crazy to learn from 7am untill 9-10pm…and because everything is not chasidish or whatever(sports.concerts.)guy dont wanna learn all day they realy dont care at alll…b.c the yeshiva is soo unreasonable
no you see that is the problem instead of hanhala
helping the bocherim the mashpim just say lets farbrang about about it all night in the end the next morning none of the bouchrim show up to sader then the next day after that they forget what happend at the farbrangen two nights before and no progress is made
”FYI, I am currently one of the best talmidim in a top chabad Semicha program, and on a very very good week, I learn 35-40 hours!” are you familiar with the term ”baal gaivoh” maybe if you would have gone to chasidishe farbrengen you would have received some bitush
because they take a small problem (yes it may be a problem and there are thousands of problems out there) and they blow it up as if everyone is bad, as if every bochur is wasting his time as if every person is has the same trouble as he does. If someone has a personal problem they should deal with it, there are many different yeshivos if the yeshiva he is in is not for him let him go to another yeshiva that learns part time and works part time and so on. The person writing the letter and problem… Read more »
Why is it that every single time someone brings up an important issue in an op-ed and it looks like people are agreeing that there is a problem do you always have to speak up?!?!? This bochur is bringing out a point that is painfully true and people are starting to understand but YOU have to come along and brush it away?? If this article had been written years ago and people of your kind would let a solution be presented, I would not have wasted 4 years of yeshiva!!! I was one of those bochurim that would literally come… Read more »
As a Magid Shiur, I believe I have some insight to the dilemma that this bochur is touching upon. The problem stems more from what is transpiring outside the Yeshivas, from Chabad in general, then from the actual procedures and practices of the Hanholo’s and Yeshiva’s. The tremendous admiration, honor and respect that Chabad in general places on weath and wealthy people in contrast to the indifference attributed to a true chosid who’s values and behavior are the ones that Chabad demands and values Being that we just celebrated Pesach, I would like to touch upon a much more serious… Read more »
thank u captin obvious defender of the already known to bochurim and mashpiem and roshei yeshivois…….. i dont mean to bash you ur only in shiur alef zal so your too young to understand or ur just simply to ignorant to realize it on your own but here it is:zal is on the bochur not the mashpia or the rosh yeshiva it is not the mashpia’s job to get up out of his chair and inspire u and the bochur sits and wastes his time waiting to be inspired in mesivta its on hanhala to prepare the bochurim that come… Read more »
can can bring the horses to the fountain but u can’t fours them to drink. Shall a parent all if the child’s life from small plant a love to hashem and show them how important learning his Torah is and showing an example am sure the yeshivah will look different
this topic needs a late night Farbrengen to sort it out
Accept cuz its true!!!
Do you know what more than a few people do in life? Sleep, socialize, and indulge themselves. So what’s your point?
Yeshivas are a waste of time vs. serious universities, as I shall explain. I don’t know what “college” you go to where you spend a mere 10 hours in class and 5 studying?! When I was a science major in a State University, I spent close to 25 hours a week in classes and labs, 25 hours a week studying, and 20 hours a week doing research. That’s a total of 70 hours a week, not including Shabbos! Tell me which Chabad Yeshivas are learning even 35 hours a week? FYI, I am currently one of the best talmidim in… Read more »
doesnt make sense there are diff strokes for diff folks if u are a bochur that will be motavated then u will be able to grow tremendosly in a yeshiva atmosphere and if u nedd to go to a diff yeshiva for your personal need s depending on ur case do research and look into all diff types of yeshivas there is one out there for every type of bochur. and from the fact f what u wrote in your article prooves that u didnt sit by a farby fpr more than 5 min well chevra chap arein your years… Read more »
#8 does some good math, I would add that being in a Yeshiva is very healthy, even if not utilizing your time properly, simply because your with friends, your in a dorm learning how to live with 100-400 other people form all kinds of backgrounds all that counts for a lot, especially at that age, the learning will hopefully get better over time.
Isn’t this EXACTLY what mashpiim and mechanchim are farbrenging about with bochurim. That’s the picture I got from my many brothers. Everything you wrote about is a reality that exists now as it did many years ago. I’m sure as you attend more farbrengens, you will find inspiration and techniques to go mchayil el chayil and find strenght to be a bochur that is working on his avodah.
NO You are not alone and your problems aren’t ignored! MY humble suggestion would be to take time outside of zal and try to figure out the basics with a friend that knows (better) what is going on. Besides that, learn things that you like on your own time, and let shiur be shiur. As long as you try you get schar. Maybe also try to ask the Rosh or your Maggid shiur for some time each week either during lunch or before Davening to review the material in YOUR language. Everything will be ok, just keep a straight head… Read more »
ITS ALL UP TO YOU IF YOULD LIKE, OPEN A SEFER AND LEARN
this is exactly what goes on bouchrim don’t learn most of the day or even half the time but as long as they are at seder and in their seats its ok the mashgiach might come of over say a few encourging words but the fact is that in many yeshivas there are only a few tables that are actually learning
“To make matters worse, as far as I know, no one is addressing it”. and thats what makes cincinnati such a good yeshiva! the hanhala and mashpiim focus on this very problem at every farbrengen! SO THERE IS HOPE!!
YECHI HAMELECH
thanks for sharing YOUR experiences. for most guys in yeshiva all you write isn’t true at all
My 19 year old son’s rosh yeshiva told me today that it would be better if my son worked on shlichus next year. The rosh yeshiva feels that Yeshiva is not for my son.
As much as I tried conveying to the honhola, my son wasted an entire year. He is a good bochur who has developed a reputation.
is to redefine “rosh yeshiva” “magid shiur” and “mashpia” from someone who is a lamdan or chassidish, to someone who is an educator.
All that matters to the Hanhalla is that a Bocher should show up at 7:30 am. What he does there is irrelevant. When we were in Yeshiva would would wake up at 10:00, 11:00 12:00 etc, but would learn all day and night. When Bochrim go to sleep at 1:00: am or later- how can they be expected to wake up at 7:00 and learn all day. Maybe in Lubavitch they would wake up at 7.00 am. but there were no computers or cell phones in Lubavitch . Many Shluchim and Rabbonim and Mashpeim kept our schedule. Reu Gidullim Shegadlnu
these bachurim are very good bochurim they sit and learn all day, it is in the zechus of their torah that this world stands.
also doing nothing in a yeshiva atmosphere might be not that terrible the problem is once you have left that atmosphere and are used to doing nothing it is very scary to be OUT there with nothing to do and no structure (which is what a lot of boys get used to in yeshiva) you must build up a structure in yeshiva that will stay with you even after you leave – trust me – i didnt and regret it
thanx for writing..
You learn in one zal, your new to yeshiva gedola, how can you compare the laziness of your yeshiva to all chabad yeshivas all over the world. You need to do your homework before you put out an article to chabad community. Go to Manchester,cholon,brunoy, l.a., bochurim learn. I think the issues of your yeshiva should be dealt with to hanhola directly not by a website. Good job for being open about your issues though. Good luck
Every yeshiva I was in (I left the system two years ago, and have been in five yeshivas) has some sort of attendance enforcement system to make sure you’re in zal (from O.T.’s 20 points to simple rules). As for the learning aspect: I don’t mean to compare yeshivas to lehavdil colleges, but this is the only thing I can think of. I am in college, and I’m taking 12 credits. I am considered a full time student. However I only spend 10 hours a week in class, and I study for 5 hours a week out of class. (my… Read more »
I finished yeshiva some years ago and this is 100% true. I was in various yeshivos both in the US and abroad.
The main reason is that the yeshiva model does not aim for a goal with steps on how to achieve it. The yeshiva model is “a bochur needs to sit and learn. Period.”
the bochorim do nothing!
the problem is once they get married and have to provide parnasa, they dont know what to do!!!!!
Obviously the person who wrote this is not in yeshiva, he is someone who is anti chabad. If he will write a article thats anti chabad nobody will listen so he says he is in zal and that this is the problem but everything else is good so this way we will fall into his trap Well hes wrong, thanks to most of the comments nobody is falling for this guy, he is 100% wrong, some learn more some less but everyone learns OT has monthly test with a proper point system to make sure every bochur is learning they… Read more »
What about the girls that get crushed and rejected by seminaries, only to seriously waste a year of parents hard earned money!!! Sick of the bureaucracy.
Well written article that needed to published 15 years ago!
There are so many bochurim who if properly challenged would accomplish so much more. Thank you for bring this to peoples attention.
My dear chaver, Absolutely nothing is new. This occurred in the good old days and certainly in the past 25 years that i am aware of. The chassidisher bochurim were the ones who farbrenged and bs’d to the extreme but know . Very VERY few actually learned anything at all. R’ Piekarski simply was passing the time and marking who showed up and who left. The hanhola would occasionally stop a loud bull session that had a few benches involved, but to actually do something about the 99% of the time that was wasted never occurred nor ever outwardly bothered… Read more »
who ever wrote this article thank you very much, the truth hurts hu??????
my mesivta gives no direction i am not learning a word in seder not because i don’t want to, but because i am lost don’t get me wrong the rosh, rif , marshal,………. is all great stuff but maybe something on my level????? but than if someone hears that this mesivta teaches such easy stuff they are not “chasiddish its for fryakss” why??? because i don’t have a good head i am fry??????? someone help me?????????