Saturday, 19 Nisan, 5784
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Life is Like Second-Hand Smoking

From the COLlive inbox: How often do you do something just because you saw someone else doing it? It can be trivial issues or with tznius standards, for example. Full Story

Talmidim-Shluchim of Oholei Torah

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agree, collive is the only site i am comfortable with
July 4, 2013 10:52 am

there is a maturity and responsible editorial discretion here which ive come to respect about collive’s standards

Thank you to collive!!
July 3, 2013 9:52 pm

I’ve got more value from some of your audiences comments than from te op-Ed itself!!

It’s not often that someone sends me a link to a random “comment” berried inside an Op-Ed!

Clearly collive readership attracts some very learned and bright contributors!

I will be forwarding this link to those I think would appreciate and find it useful!

Comment 33 and 79 by far the most useful reading I’ve come across in a long time!

Thank you to the author and to collie for keeping its content on a higher standard drawing the quality audience you do

to #9
July 3, 2013 8:46 pm

well said.

93 has a point
July 3, 2013 7:41 am

Environment and peer pressure is but one of several factors
(genes, free choice, is another)

July 2, 2013 10:28 pm

I totally 100% agree.

Your second paragraph is spot on.

We are far more complex than this
July 2, 2013 7:36 pm

According to the author of this article, I became religous not because I was searching for the truth or looking for a sytem that would enable me to grow; but rather i became religous to copy my brother who did it first.

Newsflash…we are not cows. There are complicated reasons for the things that all of us do. To reduce all our actions simply to a kind of herd mentality displays a very pessimistic understanding of what being a human being and a Jew is all about!


To whoever thinks the Rebbe's chinuch list is vague...
July 2, 2013 4:36 pm

Read it carefully, 33 is 90% accurate albeit very condensed There’s nothing vague about 30 minutes analyzing the chinuch status of your children! There’s nothing vague about being extra careful with Taharas Hamishpacha, saying as much of tehilim on Shabbis mevorchim, don’t show discord/tenssion to your spouse in front of the kids, No TV etc, say chitas, These are not undefined not vague! The Rebbe says that with a personal mentor you can set realistic goals in each area that fits your personal level. Hashem will give his brocho just for moving upwards on these (listed) fronts in a positive… Read more »

89 well said
July 2, 2013 12:23 pm

Ty to 33 very useful!


my two cents
July 2, 2013 11:22 am

There’s so little to respond to this. It’s basically a bunch of truisms and theoretical anecdotes in this op-ed.

No need to get defensive!
July 2, 2013 9:00 am

This is a chabad website!

A chosid trusts his rebbe!
If I want to see nachas from my children I don’t have to wait till a study “tested” the statistics to see if the Rebbe’s way works

For me the fact that the Rebbe advocates these measure for the sake of chinuch in these “winds” is enough for me to trust him.

Studies and tests are for non chasidim
Until then it’s foolish to risk ur kids via TV, Secular Movies etc

July 1, 2013 11:43 pm


To 80
July 1, 2013 10:56 pm

Well Said. So many here think they have “The answer”. “Of course if you listened to ‘everything’ that the Rebbe said this won’t and can’t happen”. There’s also a comprehensive checklist of things you can do that would ensure you’ll have good results. Giving a list of a wide range of items that are not definable is not a recipe for success. Especially when it’s not been tested. It’s easy to blame the fact that someones kid is OTD on the fact that they’re only doing 19 out of the 20 vague items that you say would ensure he’ll stay… Read more »

ALIYA volunteer
July 1, 2013 10:54 pm

Kids from happy, loving, nurturing homes are far less likely to feel the urge to find “joy” elsewhere.

Parents: you got all the power in your hands! make your home a truly positive place, full of the teachings of the Baal Shemtov! REAL AHAVAS YISROEL, REAL AHAVAS HASHEM, REAL AHAVAS HATORAH!
It works! the details mentioned in other comments are all true! but the most important rule is REAL LOVE! lookup Greg Baer, MD, he preaches the basics of chasidus!

from 33 to 84
July 1, 2013 10:39 pm

get a personal mentor, the Rebbe says that HIS answer and blessings will come through via that process!

to number 33
July 1, 2013 9:50 pm

This is such cool things I never knew!!!! Thanks so much for posting!! U shoukd b a therapist/counselor if u r not already!! I wish there was a way I can ask u advice….

Rabbi Yochanan Kohen Gadol
July 1, 2013 9:46 pm

if Rabbi Yochanan Kohen Gadol ( the longerst Kohen Gadol in history) became OTD, nobody cant 100% assure about even about himself
The Gemoro asks the question ” how is it possible?” what did he do?”
he saw himself at just a great level, that he started making concessions
you know ” shamra nafshi ki chosid ani”

To 33
July 1, 2013 9:19 pm

Thank you
I’ve never come across a one-stop-shop for all the chinuch tips roled together in one summary
I found this very useful! Kol Hakavod!
Keep posting pls!

to comment # 80
July 1, 2013 7:53 pm

because i am gezeh!!!

to comment # 63
July 1, 2013 7:53 pm

how can you say such a disgusting thing?

reply to #78 & 23's request
July 1, 2013 6:28 pm

these clips are of the Rebbe himself explaining the Criteria
How to choose the right mentor for yourself, through whom the right answers and blessings will be channaled from Hashem



q #33
July 1, 2013 6:00 pm

what are the criteria for aseh lecha rav?

can you share which sicha it is?

thank you!

the Rebbe gave us the tools to compensate for the "winds"
July 1, 2013 4:52 pm

as one who works with kids at risk COTD, i can tell you that i observe a striking correlation between the type of home environment the parents maintain, and the outcome.
those who preserve a happy connected pure home environment produce happy, frum well adjusted kids,
parents have allot more power and influence than they give themselves credit!

give your children true chasidishe love (time), follow the Rebbe’s tips, you’ll see results!

free for all??
July 1, 2013 4:42 pm

to #75 be careful, someone may misconstrue your message, and conclude that due to the winds, it doesn’t matter to follow the ;list of the Rebbe’s chinuch horaos, the Rebbe specifically generated that list, to inoculate us from the winds! yes years after that (private) tree analogy, the Rebbe came out with even more horaos, to boost our protection from the strange winds, such as: “Only Kosher Chinuch oriented entertainment (No TV , Movies, or Unsupervised Internet) 6. Invest 30min a day to focus on the status/progress of your child/rens chinuch (specifically to detect & intervene early if there are… Read more »

How does the apple fall far from the tree?
July 1, 2013 3:25 pm

I heard this story from Rabbi Chaim Fogelman; A father wrote in to the Rebbe regarding a child of his who was going off the derech. The father wrote; How could it be that I put so much work into him and had a chassidisher home, that he’s doing what he’s doing? Don’t they say that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree? The Rebbe responded; Normally the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, but when there is a storm, things are different. So, even though all the segulos are good and beneficial, the spiritual storm we are… Read more »

July 1, 2013 12:07 pm

thats impressive work, you should publish it with references,

Very nice, but...
July 1, 2013 10:46 am

I don’t think it’s the parents who are trying to meet their kids halfway; it’s the kids who don’t have the guilt of acting about what their parents have always secretly wanted but never had the chutzpah to, living in a Chabad community… I unfortunately know many such families. When the Rebbe was here begashmiyus, a lot of today’s parents were youngsters and didn’t dream of going off derech. Many went on Shlichus, and if you look hard you’ll see many didn’t mekarev people to any higher level than Modern Orthodox which is the level at which they themselves are… Read more »

62 makes a valid point
July 1, 2013 9:10 am

if more people followed the horaos in 33(especially aseh lecha rav regularly, and to consult yedidim mevinim) then their hashkafa and hanhaga would be apropos to true chasidishkeit, and real world success kpshutoi

Number 62 is soooo right!
July 1, 2013 9:09 am

Definitely time to take a stand and make true Chinuch in the classroom a reality.

to 62
July 1, 2013 9:04 am

doing well in school, MEANS, DOING YOUR (own) BEST!
MAKING YOUR FULL EFFORT, and achieving your own full potential.

Theres no (authentic) mashpia in the world who will say that a kid is not good enough if he makes an effort to do His best

by having a healthy happy home, and parents who pay attention to his development (academic and emotional) will greatlt improve their child’s success in school,

reading is something often not detected on time, which chv causes an endless ripple effect, which could have been averted with immediate detection and appropriate remedial intervention

to 62 READ POST 33 (POINT 6)
July 1, 2013 8:58 am

IF POINT 6 IN #33 is followed then problems in school, academics etc are detected early here it is: “6. Invest 30min a day to focus on the status/progress of your child/rens chinuch (specifically to detect & intervene early if there are any challenges; in your child’s path, Academic/Reading, Social/Emotional etc) this simple practice is the single most powerful tool to detect & correct problems early on, and nip them in the bud, before they have a chance to ch”v metastasize & turn into emotional/spiritual problems down the road. ” Also point #7 helps discover problems early BY LISTENING 15… Read more »

July 1, 2013 8:51 am

Please parents, stop this pustkeit. Think and spend time with your kids. Don quote the Rebbe on not having kids. It is your own lifestyle that you want to just run around and have a good time. The author has seriously lens with her kids. Why? Let her look at families with good kids and ask their advise. Get your priorities straight. Stop blaming everyonebutyourself

to #60
July 1, 2013 8:24 am

Your content is correct, but your delivery can be improved!

I’m sure the reaon you have soo much passion that comes through is because, of whats at steak, when people are not tznius,

i dont judge your passion, and upset, because i am well aware of the spiritual and material consequences that result from removing the shchina from our midst,

i think the problem is that people dont know that when the shchina gets chased away, then chas veshalom (chazal say) it chases away hashems extra BLESSINGS AND PROTECTION AGAINST HARM RL

like a computer manuel
July 1, 2013 7:51 am

Tora’s instructions are for our benefit, not adhering to its instructions can only ch”v make us bigger problems

to 33,
July 1, 2013 7:48 am

Write a proper OpEd pleees!

I agree with #3,4,9,46 and specifically with #57.
July 1, 2013 7:38 am

“Second-hand smoke is the end result of the primary smoker making the poor choice to smoke, placing himself and the people around him in danger, the end result of which frequently leads to Asthma, Emphysema, Bronchitis, a whole host of cancers, and reproductive problems.”

Without the smoker there wouldn’t be any second hand smoke to begin with. As #3 said “Think for yourself.”

to comment # 27
July 1, 2013 4:35 am

you are wrong!!”gezeh” inherently means you are perfect,any argument to the contrary is baseless and wrong!

to 16 17 33
July 1, 2013 2:14 am

You fail to mention a very important point- the big pink elephant in the room-our schools!!! Particularly the boys’ schools!! As one Mashpia in this community said, and is evident in our schools: to be chassidish, a child has to do well in school. a)This concept is flawed. Torah is for all yidden, not just the Metzuyanim!! Hardly the Baal Shem Tov’s approach! With this thought, a child can think – well, if i can’t learn well, there is no place for me in Yeshiva – I might as well leave Yeshiva and go elsewhere. Hence, they are “OTD” b)If… Read more »

June 30, 2013 11:25 pm

Spot on

to #57
June 30, 2013 11:20 pm

Oh my are you DEAD WRONG!!! All that which is in our text books today have been proven by Chazal many years before and if you so clearly state that smoking causes all that which you have mentioned then we assume that you know so since DR so and so said so! But, if the Torah tells us that when one does not dress b’tznius the Shchinah will not dwell in our midst then that is so, whether you are comfortable with it or not. Halacha tells us what is Erva and the Alte Rebbe paskens that the entire leg… Read more »

Thank you for taking the time to express what others are experiencing.
June 30, 2013 11:10 pm

When a family suffers from an OTD child it is truly painful. Often the parents go through the guilt trip of trying to identify what has caused it and in confusion react in various ways, and one is as Naomi pointed out, by meeting them half way downwards, by wanting to be accepting of them. But, truthfully NOT that is what accepting is all about! Accepting means – true you are my child and I will do anything for you since my love is so deep, yet, you may be very unaccepting of their choice of Yiddishkeit. Allowing them to… Read more »

To 57
June 30, 2013 10:54 pm

– 48

Bad Analogy
June 30, 2013 9:59 pm

Life is not like second-hand smoking. Second-hand smoke is the end result of the primary smoker making the poor choice to smoke, placing himself and the people around him in danger, the end result of which frequently leads to Asthma, Emphysema, Bronchitis, a whole host of cancers, and reproductive problems. A lack of hosiery has no such effect — or at least there is no evidence in support of such a claim. Families who choose to engage their OTD children with topical conversation, are not capitulating nor conceding defeat. They are acknowledging a sobering reality, namely that maintaining a relationship… Read more »

To #33 who are you?
June 30, 2013 7:26 pm

Sounds like you did your research.
Thank you i’ll be printing out yiur checklist for my next appointment with my mashpia
Thank you! I found it very sharp and to the point.

high caliber audience!
June 30, 2013 5:53 pm

I agree! Collive seems to attract a higher caliber of views and ideas expressed in these forums.

Yashar Koach!

l loved 33 and 46
June 30, 2013 5:50 pm

Both of you spot on! Your basically saying what I realized a long time ago All problems come from when people dont follow the instruction manuel on life. Too many phonies who present themselves as “chasidim” “good families” etc, are far from true embodiments of the Rebbes teachings! If your lacking ahavas yisroel, if your lacking respect, if you bully or raise your children to be condecending and cliquee, than you do not represent chabad, the Rebbe or judaism for that matter, If when it comes to TV & Tznius you are willing to geoprodize your family and community’s well… Read more »

June 30, 2013 2:57 pm

“just dress religious and obsess over some superficial mitzvos” I know quite a few people just like that.

to 48
June 30, 2013 2:37 pm

I agree with every word.

33 Exellent!
June 30, 2013 2:34 pm

Thank you!

Thank you collive
June 30, 2013 2:29 pm

I count on you for good quality material such as this, your readership is thankfully sophisticated and insightful
Thank you to all

Keep this quality of content coming

Z. Shimon.

41 read 43
June 30, 2013 2:23 pm

I think that answers ur good question

June 30, 2013 2:19 pm

It’s important to have facts when writing an article as fact. Although some of what’s written in the article is common sense and factual the authors’ explanation is not factual and scientific and therefor bogus. Firstly the premiss that everyone tries to mimic everyone else “You like tuna with scallions and mustard? Oh, I love it” is not something that healthy, confident individuals do. Rather, it’s a disorder for those that are dependent and have not asserted themselves. A healthy person would say “oh’ you like tuna with scallions an mustard, I prefer it veggies without the mustard”. You also… Read more »

to # 19
June 30, 2013 1:59 pm

And what kind of Bubbie would you like to be for your grand children?

my best friend is OTD,
June 30, 2013 1:46 pm

Its totally true, his parents are nueroticly religiouse,
theres nothing chabad or chassidic about how they run their home, no simcha shel mitzva, no unconditional ahavas yisroel for every jew, they were always too bizzy to just chil and have a good time with their kids,
Kids are turned off not by judaism, but by the LACK of true judaism! when ppl just dress religious and obsess over some superficial mitzvos but dont do any internal work, that chasidus requires, then its no surprise that kids get turned off by this distorted, misrepresentation of judaism

Reply to 33, two comments.
June 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Very well summarized, Number one: an important segula for nachas you left out, Tehilim Shabbis mevorchim, hayom yom says: “brings benefit to ones self, children, and children’s children” Second point: for those parents who are a bit overwhelmed ot intimidated by suddenly implimenting ALL of the (chinuch) segulos fully, as with any hachlata, the Rebbe teaches that hashem expects us to take small managable steps in the direction of the ideal, If one doesn’t yet say Tehilim Shabbis mevorchim, this month start with ten kapitelach, the next month twenty and so forth. Same chitas if now it’s zero just start… Read more »

If I may say one thing
June 30, 2013 12:54 pm

For all those who pointed out, that possessing and sharing unconditional love and warmth to their children (and remember, sometimes children refer to those who you teach) will serve as a positive way to reach out to whatever struggles the child is going through, they are 100% correct. I’ve at this point been on the receiving end of both, and if not for that it is a very cloudy and confusing world in which your child will have to navigate his or her way through. You, the parent or person of authority and influence can change SO MUCH with the… Read more »

To #16
June 30, 2013 12:06 pm

True, these are the Rebbe’s directives. But how would the Rebbe himself convey this w sensitivity, compassion and deep love to heart-broken and pained parents?

a huge factor is
June 30, 2013 12:01 pm

the lack of living and applying the Rebbe’s teachings in the way we live and rais our children

June 30, 2013 11:22 am

There is too much dictating in these comments.

To the author of 33
June 30, 2013 10:48 am

Thank you! Thank you!
Your crash course has been the best thing I’ve read online in a very long time! Who are you? Pls write this up in a proper oped! Where can I here you speak???
Why are you posting anonymously??
I need the type of clarity and perspective! you seem to have a real wealth of practical know how, please make yourself known so people like myself can consult you!

If you have anything online pls post link!

Thank you!

A Crown Heights mom of five ka”h

June 30, 2013 10:28 am

Just like shluchim talk about Torah and politics at their Shabbos tables.
We can learn lessons from current events and politics. What to emulate or what to stay away from. A child who is OTD can bring up questions and discussions that will stimulate the whole family to think more about yiddishkiet and their own level of Emunah and Frunkiet! It’s not a contradiction to have a Torah true table and still be able to discuss worldly matters. Very interesting article. THANXS Collive for always posting such thought provoking articles.

so much negitivity
June 30, 2013 9:35 am

a huge factor here and the reason why so many OTD!

Smoking is BAD for you!
June 30, 2013 9:33 am
for Naomi it seems.....
June 30, 2013 9:15 am

thank you Naomi for sharing some solid advice, I hear your caring in your article it seems to me that Naomi conciders continuing the standards of idishkeit in the home is part of the unconditional luv to the child, I dont disagree and obviously other ways of showing unconditional luv are nesecary too. thanks for the posts of the Rebbe´s hoirois….too much psycology has filtered into our schools, homes, shiurim etc some of it is of course good, but lots of it has helped us get to where we are, those of us who are, unfortunatly, not totally one with… Read more »

Don't judge a book by its cover
June 30, 2013 5:19 am

Some otherwise very chasidish people were in reality not very good at implementing the specific chinuch guidance/segulos advocated by the Rebbe as key to Hatzlacha in chinuch. So just because some families seem to be oh so aligned with the Rebbe’s teachings, remember things are not always as they seem, some BT low profile homes maybe far closer to following the Rebbe’s principles on chinuch than some Ultra “chasidish” FFB family. All families have free choice, and are challenged to do the right thing! Bottom line: If followed, the Rebbe’s instructions work just fine, however, one always needs a (n… Read more »

nbr 24
June 30, 2013 5:18 am

The Rebbe was asked “it says the apple does not fall far from the tree” by a concerned father the Rebbe answered ” when the winds are calm but in stormy weather” (not exact words) It seems to me the person writing this article is trying to give chizuk saying”even though we live in stormy weather you stay as you are give lots of love and daven” We have been there and down that(we still have children we are doing it for) as long as the children see you are loving and truthful and there for them they might not… Read more »

#16 Revised, (for clarity's sake)
June 30, 2013 5:05 am

To those who think that children going OTD is an UNPREDICTABLE, RANDOM phenomenon, Actually it’s very much not Random, Unpredictable or Unpreventable! Here are some very predictable factors (from sichos etc) ALL of which are FULLY IN PARENTS CONTROL! 1. Hidur in Taharas Hamishpacha 2. Hidur in Tznius 3. Hidur in Kashrus 3. Kosher Mezuzos & Tfilin (checked annually) 4. Only Kosher animals around the child 5. Only Kosher Chinuch oriented entertainment (No TV , Movies, or Unsupervised Internet) 6. Invest 30min a day to focus on the status/progress of your child/rens chinuch (specifically to detect & intervine early if… Read more »

re Large families
June 30, 2013 2:16 am

It is against the Rebbe to Have more children than you can sanely handle,

It is not only UNCHASIDISH t(o bring more children into the world than you can sanely and responsibly take care of) it is out right reckless and cruel

If your not sure, then you are required to present your situation to a Rav and to follow his psak.

its unfortunate that some misguided (self guided) individuals, in the name of the Rebbe and Torah do the opposite of whats right, bec they refuse to regukarely audit their situation and important decissions by Daas Torah

Only concerning Yaakov does it say "Mitaso Shleima"
June 30, 2013 2:09 am

Chasidus teaches us how Avraham avinu’s approach failed, as did yitzchok avinu, since both were extremes which is a risk in chinuch Yaakov learnt from both extremes and thats why davka HIS children were ALL tzadikim! Note: theres still an additional important lesson to learn from Avraham & Yitzchok Avinu’s extreme approach, namely, that Extreme chesed is better than extreme gevura Yishmael in the end did tshuva, Esav did not. The moral of the story, With regards to chinuch, when in doubt (and you cant reach a yedid mevin) its better to err on the side of “too much chesed/love”… Read more »

reply to #23's request
June 30, 2013 1:46 am

these clips are of the Rebbe himself explaining the Criteria
How to choose the right mentor for yourself, through whom the right answers and blessings will be channaled from Hashem



Actually #16 is accurate
June 30, 2013 1:42 am

As a proffessional my self, who regularly deals with children and families at risk, I can confirm that what post 16 listed seems to jive with what I’ve seen and experienced. There are very specific and consistant indicators and factors at play, that’s a fact. Yet I do sympathize with parents who feel (i emphasize “feel”) they did everything right, yet they ended up with a son or daughter in trouble (OTD). parents of OTD have done the best with what they knew at the time, now for those parents who wish to learn from their mistakes, I suggest do… Read more »

Thank You
June 30, 2013 1:28 am

This article is long over due. Our families, many of our families, are being destroyed. Does it really matter WHO the victim is? Is the OTD child the victim or is his struggling-to-stay-frum sibling the victim? Or maybe the parents are the victims? I know of formerly frum familes who aren’t so frum any more because they tried to accomodate an OTD child. And now everyone in the family has lost out R”L. The Rebbe always said to bring people to the Torah, and not to lower the torah standards to make them more “appealing” to the not yet frum.… Read more »

Read the list CAREFULLY! "GEZEH" does not mean they necissarily followed half the segulos on the list
June 30, 2013 12:53 am

how many people with children OTD do u know for a fact adheard to the listed segulos 1. Extar care with Tznius & Taharas Ham. 2. kept a peacful positive happy loving home environment? 3. Only displayed love & respect (Sh”B) in front of the children 4. Followed the Hayom yom re 30min a day analizing the chilnuch detatails in childs development? I’ve worked in this field for 20 years I’ve yet to see a SINGLE case where parents followed the Rebbe’s segulos & a child went OTD (so don’t judge a book by its cover, even if its GeZeh… Read more »

June 30, 2013 12:53 am

Why are you lowering your standards? ” do not go out without stockings, do not give up on chitas zmiros etc. try this way and you will see that there is a improvement in the frumkeit of you family. Good luck to you

Sad situation
June 30, 2013 12:48 am

I went to Machon Chana t the age of thirty, I’d already seen the world and its ways. I now Thank Gd have lovely respectable well mannerd children, who are kind to everyone, don’t bully, don’t brag, make everyone comfortable. But as a bal Teshuva of twenty years, I mst say that it’s sickening to meet really screwed up weird children, who are rude, low and have so many head problems….and they come from big frum families. Honestly, it’s pathetic . These will destroy others strength in yidishkeit..it’s a same…have loads of kids, but can you parent them.

June 30, 2013 12:48 am

Parents,, think about your children. One young man with 3 young children said so now that I have kids I am not a person? No you are a parent. Your children’s. needs come first. If parents would think about the needs of their kids first the kids 100% the kids would be. Different. Look around you Nd you shall see that the apple does not fall far from the tree. Wakeup

June 30, 2013 12:48 am

Share how to find and the criteria of a mashpia

preventable factors (continued)
June 30, 2013 12:15 am

11. Invest 30min a day on the status of your chid/rens chinuch (to detect & intervine early if there are any chalanges; Reading, Social, Emotional, Academic, health, etc) this simple dicipline is the single most powerful tool to detect & correct problems early on, before they ch”v metastasize & turn into emotional/spiritual problems down the pike 12. Aseh Lecha Rav aka have a mentor you respect, …give them an occasional du”ch (status report) on all important aspects of your life which need sayaata dshmaya, this (the Rebbe says) thacnnal his blessings & guidence (provided the Rav meets the critirea set… Read more »

Get on the bus
June 30, 2013 12:10 am

I read this article in the current issue of N’Shei Chabad. It saddened me to see something so convoluted going into print directed at a wide an impressionable audience. I would like to reframe the “changed” or “OTD” child as the *actual* victim of second-hand smoke. What are they breathing that pushed them into this tough corner? Over-crowded schools, stressed parents trying to make ends meet, peer pressure, spiritual anemia, hypocrisy from leaders, competition, and often the strain of urban living. This article was another example of laying blame on the wrong party, on the young and vulnerable child that… Read more »

to 16
June 30, 2013 12:07 am

thank you for your advice, but sometimes it is a “gzero hi milfonay” and even what you write might niot work. avraham avinu had a rosho as a son, too. are sara imenu was the epitome of tznius.

the mom you might be talking about
June 30, 2013 12:06 am

I never really cared for the details of tznius…but followed for the chinuch of our children and respect for the community. Same with davening, dvar torahs and the rest.
My kids are grown now. They are who they are. I no longer have to pretend. I can be who I am without the pretenses.

June 30, 2013 12:05 am

what the heck are you talking about there are good families who also have “OTD”

Predictable factors (continued)
June 30, 2013 12:02 am

6. A happy, warm, loving home environment (ask yedidm mevinim how) 7. Shalom bayis, avoid displays of tenssion or discord in front of children (ask a yedid mevin for guidance how) 8. Spend at least a few minutes a day on chitas rambam/sefer hamitz. 9. At least once a week child/ren should observe parents leraning Torah &/ engaging in some chesed/outreach 10. Dugma Chaya, children tend to follow your unconscious example, if you want him/her to resist their temptations on their level, then be sure to resist your temptations on your level (even if they are in entirely different domain… Read more »

to those who think that children going OTD is a UNPREDICTABLE RANDOM pehenominon
June 29, 2013 11:51 pm

I have news to share with you!

It’s not unpredictable nor unpreventable at all!

Here are some very predictable factors ALL of which are FULLY IN PARENTS CONTROL!
1. Hidur in Taharas Hamishpacha
2. Hidur in Tznius
3. Mezuzos & Tfilin checked annually
4. Only Kosher animal around the child
5. Only Chinuch oriented entertainment
6. Investing 15min each day one on one attention with each child

Feel sorry for you
June 29, 2013 11:47 pm

Please speak to your mashpia. I understand you have quite a few children who are not turning out as you wish. Please speak to a professional, to a mechanech. I wih you all the luck but do not generalize that we’ll have children who are off the derech. Try not to lower your own standards and it will surely help. Hatzlocha rabba

June 29, 2013 11:43 pm

What does this mean?

do good
June 29, 2013 11:34 pm

If this is what happens with bad habits forsure if you do good things it will have a positive effect on your surrondings

Comment #2
June 29, 2013 11:01 pm

Naomi, I would like to add, do a simple google search on kids leaving the fold, “OTD’S” as they’re called, and you’ll see that vast amounts of research has been done on this… and the people in the field speak with humility and sensitivity, because they know the fragile nature of the work, and every word they write is precise and based on facts. And yet, even though they are experts in the field, they do not make ignorant blanket statements about families, as you have done in this mere hypothesis. It’s nice that you’re concerned for the frumkeit of… Read more »

June 29, 2013 10:56 pm

You do not know what you are talking about. Please. Wee need to keep our standards and not go down. Obviously you are a b.t. And not even that long. Speak. For yourself and not generalize. Maalim bakodesh. Try that it might help your family situation

Comments reek of ignoranve!!
June 29, 2013 10:51 pm

if a baal tchuva read these comments, they would quickly quit the dferech as it makes them diffeerent then mom, dad, and the others they know. No one says being frum is easy. no one says being frum is IN. If I had a teacher like comment #2 when I started, I probably might have quit. 30 years ago the number of baal teshuvos was tiny; there were TWO yeshivas for us in the united states, Tiferes (Morristown) and Hadar haTorah. For my wife (who is wirting with me) there was ONE; Machon Chana. In none of these did they… Read more »

to comments 2, 6, 7, 8:
June 29, 2013 10:47 pm

be logical. if somebody says something smart, whether or not they have experience or sources, it is valid. it has absolutely nothing to do with position (e.g. psychologist) or degree of respect accorded this person (e.g. respected rabbi) – if what they are saying makes sense, it makes sense. sorry to burst all of your self-imposed bubbles, but it doesn’t either depend on experience. stop getting insulted just because somebody has hit the issue on the nose and it hurts because you know theyre right. there are things that are complicated, like having children who are “OTD”, but it doesn’t… Read more »

Great theses but there are no sources for your harsh statements.
June 29, 2013 10:24 pm

This article is very well written and may even be true but in order to make such statements, you need sources. Do you have evidence to back these statements? Are there surveys done in this field to strengten your argument etc? When you have done better research this article may be a little more believable, good luck.

June 29, 2013 10:17 pm

Well expressed, but I’m not sure the issue that you speak of is nearly as simple as you think it is. Number two seemed to key in on that a bit. Although you are correct at least in quoting from Hayom Yom, but again, I’m not convinced that the context is proper.

Thank you author of comment #2
June 29, 2013 9:57 pm

This article is well written, but reeks of ignorance

very true
June 29, 2013 9:46 pm

and well written too.

June 29, 2013 8:49 pm

One important comment on this post: I think it agrees with the point that many people believe and behave simply by religious and cultural osmosis, without thinking through the rationales. If your family is religious, then you’ll probably be religious.

I’m on the assumption that being less religious is bad.

June 29, 2013 8:30 pm

I say think for yourself. That’s how you avoid the “second hand smoke”.

Attention Naomi Cohen
June 29, 2013 7:05 am

I am not familiar with your background, your age, your family or your career. You may be coming from a good place. What bothers me is that you are commenting on the actions of families and people who struggle with a real and serious problem which has no solution. You described many families I know above, who’s conversations at supper are today about sports and celebrities when years back would be more Torah orientated. And what should they do? Should they isolate the ones who are not frum today by saying you can only eat supper at your own mother’s… Read more »

June 29, 2013 5:18 am