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Wednesday, 23 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 26, 2019

    Judging Our Judging Standards

    From the COLlive inbox: Schools' judgement of parents' standards is often based on sketchy observations, unintentional misunderstandings, distorted hearsay, and untrue gossip. Full Story

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    they ask references
    Guest
    they ask references

    Some of those schools call references before accepting a girl to see if her mother is always as tznius as she was at the interview. We also call references for shidduchim and for hiring people and for potential tenants so I am not sure why this is any less fair.

    Interesting
    Guest
    Interesting

    Not my favorite but thought provoking

    Distorted
    Guest
    Distorted

    The examples brought from Tanach were completely distorted in this article and taken out of context. Frum parents want their children to be raised surrounded by frum kids. Stop blaming schools and others, and look at yourself the way you dress and stop justifying wrongdoing!

    Ch'er
    Guest
    Ch'er

    A wonderful polite respectful way for a parent to tell schools administrators rules regulations and policies = mind your own business, don’t judge me, don’t make my daughter pay for my behavior.
    Looking forward reading future comments.

    Ylg
    Guest
    Ylg

    I strongly suport the last paragraph its all in the first and second paragraph. G d bless crown hights. I love it

    Sorry
    Guest
    Sorry

    but this is a ridiculous article.

    You are crazy
    Guest
    You are crazy

    To tell a school that they can’t ask that a mother not sell herself because of Tamar?! Crazy

    Judging or just noticing?
    Guest
    Judging or just noticing?

    No one accuses people of being “judge-y” if they point out, “Hey, there’s something stuck to your shoe.” Or, “You just had a hamburger 5 hours ago.. you can’t have a latte yet!” Or, “Did you remember to bentch?” In those cases, the person might say, “Oops! Thank you so much…” But tznius stands alone. No one appreciates any comment or reminder about it. Now we all have to walk around pretending there are no objective tznius standards… just to be considered non-judgmental, which is the new gold standard of behavior. Personally, I try to lead by example and daven.… Read more »

    Creative!
    Guest
    Creative!

    well done!

    our forefathers were tzadikim, we cannot look at their actions superficially!
    Guest
    our forefathers were tzadikim, we cannot look at their actions superficially!

    this sounds like what happened in the era of the shoftim – each man did what was right in his eyes. Torah says this did not work. being judgemental may not be the answer – but neither is no setting standards.

    Brilliant Perspective
    Guest
    Brilliant Perspective

    Someone give the author a medal. Finally, someone who thinks outside the box. Now, if one the administrator (you know who) would listen. Some people think they know everything about everyone – but they indeed often get it wrong. Too many precious neshamas are thrown out due to judging and misjudging.

    somwthing must be done!!
    Guest
    somwthing must be done!!

    this needs to be taken care of. thank you to the author

    Deeper
    Guest
    Deeper

    It’s simple, people: Dan lekav zechus and al todin es chavercha. Don’t judge others you think you know but don’t. This is what we learn from the avos. Miriam judged Moshe and she got tzaraas. Stop judging!

    beautifully written! !!!!
    Guest
    beautifully written! !!!!

    Well expressed! !! Unbelievable, connecting the great women in klal Yisroel to today’s times!!!! Mamash beautiful! !!

    Correction
    Guest
    Correction

    Yaakov kissed Rachel – not the other way around.

    To the writer
    Guest
    To the writer

    I think the point of your article was the last two paragraphs. That “you never know who will come out from a ‘bad’ mother/family” and therefore schools should accept all children and not filter anyone out.

    The rest of your article was a little weird/strange (IMO completely off target) and too distracting from you main point.

    Way off
    Guest
    Way off

    Except in these examples the Torah clearly writes that each of their actions was lsheim shamayim without any ulterior motives. Please tell me which women dress untznius lsheim shamayim?

    Multileveled
    Guest
    Multileveled

    What’s great about this piece is that everyone will take out of it whatever they connect with. Those who read it carefully will understand the point clearly. And, those who read it quickly and superficially will miss the point entirely. Very cool and refreshing literary work.

    the people who are expressing the author is way off
    Guest
    the people who are expressing the author is way off

    It’s time to wake up and see with your spiritual glasses. Peoplehave to stop judging children ( or even adults) till you know the FULL story. Our great women in klal Yisroel, NOT ONE SCHOOL would have accepted their cHildren or accepted them as in – laws for the deeds they were involved in or committed. Now today we do not have such great women’s but that doesn’t mean the children have to suffer. …

    The shoe is on the other foot, baby
    Guest
    The shoe is on the other foot, baby

    Seems to me that the only judging being done in this article is against frum people or Torah standards. But isn’t that the way of the ‘tolerant’ world now? And we’ve become juust like them. Let’s talk about ‘judgemental’ shall we? Let’s see if it’s the frum people who are the ones who are so shamelessly hurtful and judgmental as they are labeled to be or if it’s some yuppies and the Jews who spire to be like them. Take a stroll up and down this neighborhood and see who has the pleasant open face or is harmlessly minding their… Read more »

    Deeply flawed
    Guest
    Deeply flawed

    Where this article becomes dangerously distorted is in taking the actions of men and women who were tzadikim, most with ruach hakodesh and some who were actual prophets, whose actions were for done for deeply spiritual causes with far reaching effects that would influence the destiny of our nation and the ultimate redemption of the world… and somehow making that a parallel with and comparing it to dressing and behaving provocatively on Kingston ave just because one feels like it.. Now, to each his own, I am not a school administrator and wouldn’t tell anyone what to do.. but the… Read more »

    Real Chasidim of the Rebbe
    Guest
    Real Chasidim of the Rebbe

    We really know that our Tznius needs to be corrected . Our laxitivity is inexcusable. What we tolerate from Balei Teshuva has become the basic standard. As soon as someone brings up the Halacha don’t become judge mental. If a Rav Rolf you something is Borer Ribbis would you scream judgmental. This is no difference!!!!!

    Disgraceful
    Guest
    Disgraceful

    Yes, there are unique stories in Torah of Tzadikim and Tzidkonios where things were not as they seemed.
    But these are the exception, not the rule; the rule is that what is wrong is wrong and one is held accountable. A woman seen dressed not tzniusdig is no longer trusted Halachically, loses her kesuba rights, and more repercussions.
    Let us stop hiding behind holy ideas to excuse our shortcomings. We all have nisyonos. And the first step to growth is honesty.

    Our Community
    Guest
    Our Community

    Yemin Mikareves .. with all the rules. schools need to consider how they can improve the Rebbes wishes in a yemin mikareves way. When was the last gathering for parents done with Ahava besides for speeches..

    I, yes this shmo leaving an anonymous comment agree
    Guest
    I, yes this shmo leaving an anonymous comment agree

    WITH the comments bashing the article as well as with the article itself.
    And side note it was well written.
    Less of a side note- It was Yaakov who kissed Rochel not the other way around.

    Agreed, But DO NOT MAKE THE GRAY AREA BIGGER!!
    Guest
    Agreed, But DO NOT MAKE THE GRAY AREA BIGGER!!

    We were blessed with Halacha and we have clear black and white rules. We don’t have to be creative with situations.
    Our righteous forefathers and mothers did not have straight up Halacha to keep.

    #23
    Guest
    #23

    As it says ידיעת המחלה חצי רפואה היא

    To #22: What we tolerate from BTs?!
    Guest
    To #22: What we tolerate from BTs?!

    Were we – the FFBs – only to be as holy as the BTs. We can learn a lot from them! כלך מלשון הרע to say that the BT community is negatively influencing us!

    to #22
    Guest
    to #22

    you say”what we tolerate from baalei tedhuva has become the basic standard”
    THAT is pure ignorance & judgemental arrogance & goes directly against what the Rebbe says about baalei teshuva
    shameful lishen hara.
    everyone walking around untsnius is a baal teshuva?? wake up!

    OMG
    Guest
    OMG

    G-d bless the commentators on COL each and everyone, i loved the article, i find it amazing and amusing how people can read something and be so obsessed with the details that they miss the entire point of the article.. keep the comments coming, they literally make me LOL

    beautiful!
    Guest
    beautiful!

    All Jewish children deserve a full jewish education!!!!Absolute!

    Genius!
    Guest
    Genius!

    Indeed, let’s lead by example, and stop judging amongst our elite culture (religious) clubs. Let’s employ the winning “Chabad House” method, within our communities, and we’ll all benefit.

    Pro Tznius
    Guest
    Pro Tznius

    This oped is pro Tznius and anti judging. Spot on. We have become so disillusioned that we judge people based on the hat they wear (reminds me of that sad joke of moshiach coming to different communities with different hats – such as a shtreimel in Lakewood- and no one accepts him). We would not want to be mechutanim with a Lavan or a Terach, yet the greatest people came from them. Stop looking at the parents and focus on the children. Schools are where children, not parents, are molded. If a mother’s sheitel is an inch above the shoulder… Read more »

    Debatable
    Guest
    Debatable

    “What is undebatable is that specific tznius standards are debatable.”

    Now that statement is debatable. Wait, that’s what was written. Or is it? Like everything else written here, it’s worth a second read. Genius.

    to #19
    Guest
    to #19

    Time to grow up. Anyone is free to start a school that suits their fancy. It is probably cheaper and easier, however, to have your skirts lengthened.

    You just don't know....
    Guest
    You just don't know....

    Administrators, you just don’t know what is going on by yenem. You don’t know how much they have in their bank account, nor where they are holding religiously, nor what they had for supper last night. You think you know but you just don’t. That’s the point here. As it says in seforim, those who judge others down here will be judged and scrutinized up there. Rabbi Administrator, are you good with that? Believe me, you don’t want to be scrutinized up above. You are not perfect, far from it…. Take this oped to heart — for the sake the… Read more »

    to #7
    Guest
    to #7

    “Some of these examples are, admittedly, extreme for the sake of highlighting the larger point. In the context of our realities, we’re talking about much narrower and subtle distinctions – a woman whose sheitel is an inch above or below her shoulders; makeup that “draws too much attention” versus a more “neutral” palette.”

    to the #6 comment
    Guest
    to the #6 comment

    How insightful. Care to elaborate? Or is it just that you haven’t thought of things this way before and are shell shocked that there is a different perspective? Have you ever considered the point that EVERY TIME in the Torah that men judged women they were proven to be wrong?? Have you not heard of the concept of ‘ma’ase avos siman la’bonim’ – we are meant to use our avos as learning examples? Do you not realize that the author makes it clear in the beginning middle and end that tznius is so important and that each example of the… Read more »

    great article
    Guest
    great article

    I see most people are missing the point. We shouldnt create our standards based on judgement. Well written and thoughtful

    Beautifully written!  Why didn't you sign your name?
    Guest
    Beautifully written! Why didn't you sign your name?

    The author is clearly saying tznius should be upheld, yet people shouldn’t judge others. Schools should have their rules (whether they are beyond the letter of the law or not – they should just teach the students what is actual halacha and what is a school uniform rule), but shouldn’t judge children by their mother’s standards – because that is also anti-halacha. “Al tadin et chavercha….” No one is ever in anyone else’s shoes, so the Torah clearly says don’t judge. The point of the article is not to judge. May all of klal Yisrael be judged for a good… Read more »

    to #40
    Guest
    to #40

    The schools have to make a judgment call, the same way that you have to make a judgment call when you choose a shidduch for you child or hire an employee. They may not be saying that the child is bad or incapable of being frum enough; they are saying that they refuse to accept a child of a mother who does not observe their tznius standards, regardless of how special or holy the child is. How is that passing judgment, any more than the person giving your child a driving test is passing judgment on his ability to drive?

    to #41
    Guest
    to #41

    Following your logic, would it make sense that the DMV would deny your daughter a driver’s license because you – her mother – recently got a speeding ticket?? Or worse, because your cousin once got a speeding ticket and therefore you – the mother – is probably not a good driving role model and therefore the daughter will be denied a license. This would be an outrage, no? Actually, THIS is what happens in *certain schools* in the community! A girl’s mother’s relative dresses immodestly. Ergo, the mother is ‘probably’ the same, ergo the daughter is rejected from the school.… Read more »

    Old Timer
    Guest
    Old Timer

    Everyone should listen to the Rebbe’s Sicho of Chof Av Tof shin chof Ches. About veshinantom levonecho and ledaber bom. And assimilate it into daily life.

    Confused
    Guest
    Confused

    I hear you point that many times the administrations perception can be off.
    However as you yourself say in this well written article the children need consistency therefore in order to educate the child the parents must hold to those standards
    So what are you suggesting ? What should the schools do?
    אין לדין אלא מה שעיניו רואות
    To me it’s nothing to do with being judgemental the schools though will only take children they believe they can successfully educate

    to#33
    Guest
    to#33

    Those who care to disregard the halachas of tzneeus constantly bash the messengers, the concept of standards,consequences and our mesorah it self. This is very juvenile behavior. It’s also immature to think that a mother’s lack of tzneeus won’t have a deep,deep impact on her daughter’s yiras shmayim and therefore success in a chasidishe school.

    #42
    Guest
    #42

    Instead of blaming the schools for having standards,why don’t the mothers look at themselves and see what’s missing. Oh no,that would be hard.

    #46
    Guest
    #46

    No, my dear, very often the mothers are not missing anything. It is the school administrator who often *assumes* something is missing due to faulty information and assumptions. Why is it so hard to understand the basic point?? No one is bashing tznius. No one is bashing schools and standards. What is being bashed is the ‘all-knowing’ elitist and judgmental attitude of some (actually, just one) administrator(s).

    To #38
    Guest
    To #38

    Every single time? Really? So you’re telling us that Eliyahu was wrong when he condemned Izevel, Yehoyada the Kohen Gadol was wrong when he did the same about Asalyah, Yeshaya was wrong in his nevuah about the improper behavior of the women of Yerushalayim…?!

    To #41
    Guest
    To #41

    You misunderstood the oped. Additionally, the analogy from the speeding ticket is absurd. The analogous that would logically follow is that the mother understands that dressing untznius is wrong and would never impose such behavior on her daughter – as no mother would encourage he daughter to speed. But that is simply not the case. Women who don dress tznius, do not believe in the importance of tznius. (And don’t tell me that it’s a hard nisayon- that’s a kid argument) To the author of the article: the logic of the article seems inconsistent and resembles a teenagers rant. Let… Read more »

    Yitzchok
    Guest
    Yitzchok

    You have a choice:
    Either send your children to another school or (if you care that much for THIS specific school) abide by their rules. It’s as simple as that!

    quite true as we know
    Guest
    quite true as we know

    it’s says in the code of laws,generally, a tzinus person can be trusted, l know for a fact that people tend to twist things to suited themselves, if this is so then we know to be on guard, because a person who couldn’t care less about tzinus is in a spot for being not trustworthy,no one likes to be jip

    RIDICULOUS
    Guest
    RIDICULOUS

    Parents have to know that they way they act will affect their children s future.
    Schools, shidduchim…
    Can,t expect to act like a teenager and want your kids to run a normal life.
    WAKE UP!

    Liked this article great perspectives to think about
    Guest
    Liked this article great perspectives to think about

    Crown Heights should be the highest of standerts. How we have been taught by our Rebbe we are also Shluchim and that means that we need to except others that are holding on lower standerts, nothing else we should have comeplete love and understanding of there struggle, once you get there, you will be able to influence another.

    very well written
    Guest
    very well written

    love it

    To #52
    Guest
    To #52

    Really great point but until you’re in a situation that causes you and your children’s lives to be dysfunctional beyond your control never judge that the path someone is taking is what they even want, it’s sad, and even a situation that seems similar can be very different.

    To #51
    Guest
    To #51

    Or maybe the one dressing tznius is really fooling you and are not what they appear to be. Are those not the best con artists?

    don't judge
    Guest
    don't judge

    Not only should children be given a chance regardless of their parents ,a woman who is not up to a standard could have overcome the most and have good children!

    About Time
    Guest
    About Time

    Its about time someone smart stood up expressed what should be an obvious concept. Don’t judge others. You don’t know what’s really going on in someone else’s life, where they’re from, where they’re going, and what’s doing with them now. Don’t punish children by what you think is going on with the parents. By all means, have standards in your school for your students and enforce them strictly. but stop trying to nosy around the parents. Toda lecha!

    one thing that everyone is forgetting
    Guest
    one thing that everyone is forgetting

    Most RW Orthodox communities have even broader restrictions on what parents can or can not do, in order to send their children to the schools. These restrictions are often regarding the type of phones that the parents have, if there is internet in the house, and the presence on the home of any secular reading material. In some Chassidishe communities, even the car undergoes scrutiny. All of this is to prevent these families from lowering their standards and the carrot on the end of the stick is school acceptance.

    Mike
    Guest
    Mike

    I did not read any of the comments what I could say is what I hear from a lot of Shluchim A lot of the parents came around because of the children if the children are taught right they will bring the spark back into the home

    Ba'al Tosif
    Guest
    Ba'al Tosif

    Chazal bring down that tzinius applies to men’s clothing along with women’s lvush…e.g. •In Yoma (35b), Rav Elazar’s chevrah would not permit him to wear a finely-woven bekishe because it was too sheer and his form was visible through the translucent material; •In Shabbos (114a), clothes are referred to as, ” the things that honor a person” and chazal bring down that it’s considered shameful for a talmid chacham to wear stained or patched clothing, as such are beneath his dignity (Note: by that standard the lvush worn by kolel yungerleit in many kollels is a massive “tzinius” issue). Likewise… Read more »

    to 49
    Guest
    to 49

    that is one hundred percent not true,
    just because someone is not tznius
    doesn’t mean she doesn’t believe in it!
    (and i will tell you that its a hard nisayon
    cuz it is!)

    Don't get it
    Guest
    Don't get it

    Yes gossip is unacceptable and happens WAY too often in the lubavitch community… But have a feeling the writer has some ulterior motives here.

    Best article on this topic so far
    Guest
    Best article on this topic so far

    I think we can expect a tznius article once a month now with a different twist to it and hundred comments

    Administrator
    Guest
    Administrator

    We are a school that stresses tznius. Parents are free to go elsewhere. But be aware that children see thru hypocrisy. You can’t teach one thing and act or dress another way. Mothers and staff alike have to set an example. I am very clear when interviewing prospective parents so no surprises later

    I disagree
    Guest
    I disagree

    As an outsider from a diff community.. this article sounds very nice but you’re not realizing that those of us that keep very strict standards that we want that for our children ..I have a hard time when they’re in the same class as people with totally different standards and can have a bad influence on them.. why should our homes kedusha be lowered because somebody has a different standard I’m sure there are schools for people with lower standards. We can say dont judge anyone ever and that gives a pass for ppl to do what they want(unfiltered internet,… Read more »

    yes to 65
    Guest
    yes to 65

    administrator and school can do whatever she wants, and set any rules she wants- i would add with a board, though. who cares nisyonos or what, whatever she sees she can approve or disapprove and accept accordingly.

    to 59
    Guest
    to 59

    That’s not entirely accurate.

    The other carrot on the end of that stick are the family tuition caps.

    Those communities restrict much more tightly but take care of their own. Our wealthy (in many cases) give when they can get VIP sitting at a concert.

    65/administrator
    Guest
    65/administrator

    “But be aware that children see thru hypocrisy”

    How many teachers preach about the internet and have/use it themselves

    to 69
    Guest
    to 69

    65 was discussing tznuis, not all topics. And before to criticise someone else on another topic, make sure YOU practice what YOU preach, for ALL topics!

    To 68 from 59
    Guest
    To 68 from 59

    The discussion is not at all about the cost of tuition but about the feeling that school officials should not act at all with judgmental-ism when it comes to deciding who to accept as students. If the prize for restrictions is that the community will lower the cost of tuition, then it is very worth the loss of freedom. Our tuitions are higher, partially because we now need a different school for every hashkafa level. But look at the comments here; there are those who feel that in order to accommodate those who are less tznius, rather than being judgmental,… Read more »

    The Lubavitcher Way
    Guest
    The Lubavitcher Way

    I remember a discussion several Buchrim had with a a Mashpia back when I was in Yeshiva. One Bachur brought up a question he was asked by a non lubavitcher on a specific lubavitch behavior which he did not know the answer. The Mashpia suggested that since he did not know the explanation on the specific Minhag, he could give a general explanation and say that we in Lubavitch have a Rebbe and we follow his opinion. There are now two very strong opinions regarding whether or not schools should or are justified in setting Tznius standards, and I am… Read more »

    To #72
    Guest
    To #72

    Indeed, let us ask ourselves “your” question, slightly modified: If I had the choice to enter Yechidus and proudly present the Rebbe with one of two pieces of my work, either as an administrator of a school showing the Rebbe the schools’s list of dozens of young girls that were disqualified and rejected by my elitist school, or as the writer of this article or any other of the articles on the subject, advocate against misjudging others or even better, judging others positively, and seeing the potential in each neshoma…which would I chose? That is the real question! Hint: Did… Read more »

    to #73
    Guest
    to #73

    If the purpose of the school is kiruv and we are bringing the student to the Torah, it is fine to accept students who are in the school to improve in their mitzvah observance. If the purpose of the school, however, is to bring the Torah to the level of the student, meaning, that we are going to compromise in mitzvah observance in order to allow children to enter the school, it is doubtful as to whether the Rebbe would agree to that. Some Lubavitch schools and camps that existed and still exist for the non-frum population don’t make stipulations… Read more »

    To administrator, #65
    Guest
    To administrator, #65

    You say “children see through hypocrisy” yet you only stress rules of behavior and dress on the mother and not on the father. Do frum men have no standards to adhere to? Why is the responsibility and outcry only ever focused on women and girls? Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

    To #73
    Guest
    To #73

    Standards equals elitism? Yet another twisted argument against
    tzneeus.

    to 75
    Guest
    to 75

    The Rebbe said it himself, it’s the WOMEN who make / build their home. Ekeres habayis. Start taking your responsibility as a Jewish women should , instead of hypocriting yourself.

    to 77
    Guest
    to 77

    The Rebbeh says it, the administrators say it, the teachers say it. We’ve all heard it. The woman is special and important. But actions speak louder than words. At the end of the day, who does the school trust and respect enough to put on their educational board? A group that contains not one woman. This is a board making decisions on the Chinuch of the future women of our community. Why is it comprised solely of males? Are they better equipped to understand women’s issues and struggles than women themselves?

    This article is OFFFF
    Guest
    This article is OFFFF

    Who exactly walking around ch in less clothing are we trying to compare to special people of the past? Let’s not take these rare special exceptions and use it to justify anyone or anything.
    Every private institution can choose their standards…and choose who they choose fit those standards…and where there is limited space there are limited chances…so those spts can go to those who exemplify the standards…simple logic. It doesn’t mean everyone who wasn’t accepted are bad or are doomed.

    X