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Monday, 15 Iyyar, 5779
  |  May 20, 2019

    Is Going to College a Crime?

    A girl looking for a shidduch asks: Why is it that if one doesn't follow the exact 'system', they are considered a 'bum'? Full Story

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    Jewish Star: Mendel Markel

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    A girl out there
    Guest
    A girl out there

    I’m in total agreement and hear what ur saying. although i don’t think i would nec have defined the catagories with the exact definitions used above, i never the less agree with the concept, and i do think there is a middle ground. just for some reason that middle ground is more “acceptable” for girls. I am stuck in the direction in life stage squandering for help and direction, and at the same time getting shidduchim suggestions that just make it more confusing. if you find the answer–let us out there know! have bitachon-it’ll all come together in the end!

    um okaay
    Guest
    um okaay

    I think that their are many many people between “level” one and two, and even “level two and three. where did you get such levels from?

    anon
    Guest
    anon

    so youre trying to understand peoples prejudices? good luck!

    Bum @*#$&
    Guest
    Bum @*#$&

    I will never forget this word(BUM) when it came out of Mrs M. mouth describing me. Very hurtful.
    Today B’H i support many moisdos around the globe
    Shame

    simplistic categorization
    Guest
    simplistic categorization

    this girl is as simplistic as they come.
    fyi, there are more bochurim and girls in the gray middle area than on either extreme and there are many shades of gray

    "Are there really no middle boys out there?"
    Guest
    "Are there really no middle boys out there?"

    Don’t believe the myths. Most of the guys who are what u call “very chassidish” are really “middle guys”, there are very few who are “level 1”. Anyone who tells u otherwise is simply out of touch and/or gullible.

    A bochur in the know

    An attempt to address your question
    Guest
    An attempt to address your question

    I feel your pain and am in the same boat. I went to graduate school which is totally different than college and have “friends” back in NY and LA that characterize my move as have fallen off the just path. I think to myself people that matter don’t care, and people that care don’t matter.

    wow
    Guest
    wow

    you took my thoughts and put it into words!! thank you!

    Middle type girl
    Guest
    Middle type girl

    I really appreciate your article and agree with you on most of the things you say. I feel the same way about bringin in a parnasah. I personally feel like im 23, single, and i dunno when im gonna get married or meet the right guy, as of now it feels like never, sorry Hashem, I believe in miracles, but if not for that i dunno…it seems kind of hopeless. Anyhow, how it used to be is that by 19 the girl was married or engaged and before you knew it she had kids. Nowadays, it doesnt happen as quicky… Read more »

    Regular chasidish
    Guest
    Regular chasidish

    I know lots of guys like this who are 22-24.

    Thanks for letting me know of my rights ;)
    Guest
    Thanks for letting me know of my rights ;)

    practically there are more levels.
    Ideally there are 2 levels. For example what their focus point is chasidish or not.

    this is my first thought

    thanks for writing opinion are cool.

    Very well written.
    Guest
    Very well written.

    To answer your question, YES the middle level indeed does exist.

    im in the same position as u!!
    Guest
    im in the same position as u!!

    i dont have an answer!

    Boy whos thinking the same thing
    Guest
    Boy whos thinking the same thing

    Dont worry there are boys out there whp thin the same.

    RESIDENT
    Guest
    RESIDENT

    Yes, today is certainely not a crime to go to college and our rabbonim, mashpiim and rebbeim should encourage it. If a child wants to pursue advance studies and not to become the classic pattern morah, shliach, or failure bcose he or she wasn’t a good student … (eventough there is no shlichus job today!!) for education and to make a better living parnassa not on welfare as half of crown heights does. Like boys and girls shouldn’t be critisize as a SIN of their life to go college, the funniest part in the storie is when they become well… Read more »

    are you kidding me
    Guest
    are you kidding me

    There are many many levels. Not two levels. And not three levels. I come from a large family ka”h. Many are married, some are in shidduchim now, and some too young. We are all frum Jews. Period. Some are more chassidish. Some are more with it. Some are very frum but not so chasidish. Every person is at their own individual place. We do’t fall into two or three baskets. That sound ludicrous to me. One guy will daven three times a day and go to mikvah once a week. He won’t touch his beard, wear flip flops, or listen… Read more »

    SIMPLE QUESTION!
    Guest
    SIMPLE QUESTION!

    DO YOU HAVE A MASHPIA???????????
    THE REBBE HAD A BAKASHA NAFSHIS THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A MASHPIA!
    YOU SHOULD NOT BE ASKING QUESTIONS LIKE THIS TO STRANGERS WHO DON’T KNOW YOUR SPECIFIC SITUATION!

    Quite right
    Guest
    Quite right

    You are quite right.

    I get you....
    Guest
    I get you....

    I remember when I was in yeshiva wondering, “How will I be able to support my family?” Around that time I read a few sichos from the Rebbe that totally removed my doubts. The Rebbe just spoke so strongly about how you shouldn’t worry about these things. (“The Friedeker Rebbe ran this institution is his life time and is also running it now. And he worries about all the aspects of a bochur from a shidduch to parnassah…… and parnassah daka b’harchavah”. It’s not an exact quote but that somes up what the rebbe said in a sicha.) So here… Read more »

    been there, done that
    Guest
    been there, done that

    As someone who attended a “non- Jewish college” for a number of years, I can guarantee you that such environment will irrevesibly poison your soul etc.

    With so many possibities of studying a career within a relatively frum enviroment, you have to ask yourself if the isuue is really “college” or the issue is using a earning a living as an excuse to feed the yetzer harah. Hatzlacha.

    Crown Heights resident
    Guest
    Crown Heights resident

    Can’t wait to read all the comments. I too went through the system and did not go to college b/c it wasn’t Chassidish!! Now my husband is out of a job and I have no skills to even try and help out. To work for $8 an hour and give it all to a babysitter is out of the question. What are people like us supposed to do? This system is really unfair and I think that it is TOTALLY irresponsible for parents to spend enormous amounts of $$ on sem when the girl comes back without any qualifications whatsoever!!… Read more »

    You certainly aren't alone..............
    Guest
    You certainly aren't alone..............

    If there’s no middle way then everyone in the middle will end up in the ‘chill’ level. Because from the middle it’s much easier to slide down to the 3rd level then go up to the 1st level. It’s up to us ANASH and our leaders (what leaders) to make sure and insist that there’s in fact a middle road or else risk the likelihood of all middle of the roaders, boy and girl to slide further away.

    NO NON SENSE
    Guest
    NO NON SENSE

    Dear young Lady. The problem is not that there is no middle, the problem is that everyone thinks they are in the middle, The 770 guy that learns a lot but likes a colored shirt, and face book thinks hes in the middle, The great bocher that dresses chasidish but loves to tour and watch a movie online once in three months, thinks hes the middle. And then there was me i davened every day,in shul, but trimmed and wore jeans, and i thought i was in the middle. My point dont listen to anyone, Go after what you feel… Read more »

    yaakov
    Guest
    yaakov

    you are not a bum if you go to college you are just not a lubavitcher chossid!! this topic is not up for debate all you need to do is look at the rebbes letters. hashem gives you the parnassha not the college!

    maybe this will help
    Guest
    maybe this will help

    The Rebbe has many shluchim. The Rebbe has shluchim who sit and learn in 770 and think about pure things. The Rebbe has shluchim who are into business and who like to travel. The Rebbe has shluchim who don’t have full beards and who wear flip flops. All of ’em, they all, each and every one, belong to the Rebbe. Go full steam ahead, pursue what you want to pursue, and try very hard to find somebody ready who is willing to take that journey with you. Go after it.

    to the writer
    Guest
    to the writer

    look at all the guys and girls that went to college and you will know why!

    Fendell
    Guest
    Fendell

    Rabbi manis was in town for a week why didn’t you ask him?

    My Take
    Guest
    My Take

    Thanks for your great letter. I agree 100%. There are MANY boys and girls who fit the #2 you describe. There are quite a few boys who have college degrees themselves and are pretty chassidish, though I think in terms of tznius it’s harder for a boy than a girl to go to college…

    Don't Despair
    Guest
    Don't Despair

    I was also a category #2 as you put it and can tell you that there are boys of the same level. I know because I married one B”H. I did get married later (28) and it wasn’t so easy, but I don’t think that has anything to do with the issue you’re writing about. They do exist, keep looking and I wish you find your bashert very soon. PS. Something to keep in mind, most, if not all boys do end up chilling a little after they get married, so never worry that a boy is too frum for… Read more »

    A MOTHER OF KIDS IN THEIR TEENS AND TWENTIES
    Guest
    A MOTHER OF KIDS IN THEIR TEENS AND TWENTIES

    YOUR ARTICLE AND ARGUMENTS ARE VERY LOGICAL. THERE’S ONE THING THAT YOU DON’T TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION. WHEN YOUNG SINGLE PEOPLE GO INTO A SECULAR ENVIRONMENT THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE THAT THEY WILL BE INFLUENCED BY THE ENVIRONMENT. Most people think that this won’t happen to them, but inevitably there are many changes in the person. There are opinions that if at least the person is married, they are more anchored and won’t be as influenced in the secular environment. When a person does take that step, it is a serious one and there usually is a price to… Read more »

    category 1 chassidishe bochur writes... (but maybe not b/c I'm on the finsternet)
    Guest
    category 1 chassidishe bochur writes... (but maybe not b/c I'm on the finsternet)

    The Rebbe explains that making a Keili for parnassah is only because Hashem said to do so. Truthfully, the Keili doesn’t create the Bracha, it’s the conduit for what Hashem Set aside for you. Certainly, if college is not the place for an observant Jew, it will not be the right keili for the parnassah biharchava ehich Hashem surely has in store for you. As far as finding the keili in something else besides teaching, the Rebbe established Chabad houses with so many different types of positions, not only accommodating the ‘jew out there’, but us, his tayere Chassidim. You… Read more »

    bochur 770
    Guest
    bochur 770

    If our parents will encourage and accept openely the college issue with our kids and not too refuse it will be a different game. The boys needs a lots of encouragment and support not to face the YERIDA IN YIRAS SHAMAYIM and will become modern, chas vshalom. B”H our girls are stronger, frumer and more educated than the boys in our community that’s what explain our crisis in shiduchim too!!!!!!!!!.so please wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!

    there are very few # 1.
    Guest
    there are very few # 1.

    mostly are # 2. actually between 2 & 3. there are quite a few guys that go to touro college.

    my 2 cents
    Guest
    my 2 cents

    Fugetaboutit

    Labels and stigmas.. who gives y’know ? just go date.. and if someone wont date you or marry then they arent bashert.

    Hey,
    just be yourself.. too many frauds and fakers.. dont worry about what people say..

    We Exist!
    Guest
    We Exist!

    Don’t worry there are plenty of young men in the middle of the road. So tell me – what would a person think about the new speed dating in Crown Heights? It’s to sad that we don’t have our Rebbe. As far as I see it we have to take what he said and leave it as is. Sure its tough and does not always seem to add up. So why not talk to a Mashpia/Rabbi and get yourself a “heter”? Heres how I see it: Aside from violence and thievery (including being dishonest) do whatever you want to do.… Read more »

    there are very few # 1.
    Guest
    there are very few # 1.

    mostly are # 2. actually between 2 & 3. there are quite a few guys that go to touro college. lets hook up.

    Please Read... Its the Answers..
    Guest
    Please Read... Its the Answers..

    Firstly, about college, the Rebbe instructed us to have a Mashpia, and the Mashpia will decide what is appropriate for you to do. Secondly, about shidduchim, there was middle girls, so there are middle boys (ps you could be ultra chassidish and have a decent salary) Thirdly, about the “System” it is set up not to mold you, but to give a structure of what you should be doing. If you don’t fit in, speak to your Mashpia and find alternatives.

    Good luck girl
    Guest
    Good luck girl

    Go get a carear and work a proper job. I promise I won’t criticize or cateogrise you. Kudos

    Self Searching?
    Guest
    Self Searching?

    I thought you said you took a year off to do some self-searching? If you still have these questions you haven’t found yourself. Keep searching. You will find you. And when you do, you will see that these questions aren’t uniquely you. They are byproducts of the place you are in. When you pass this stage, the questions will be irrelevant but “you” will always matter. So get in touch with your inner values. Don’t compromise em. Stay true to yourself and the doubts, labels, confusion, lousy phases, and tough questions will fade away. They will. They always do. And… Read more »

    Thank you.
    Guest
    Thank you.

    You’ve taken the words out of my mouth.
    Thank you so much for taking the time to write this.

    Girl in similar position
    Guest
    Girl in similar position

    Great article, really well written although I don’t agree with EVERYTHING you wrote …I hope you find your place and your bashert very soon.

    YOUR Right
    Guest
    YOUR Right

    Everyone says G-d will take care of you then they turn around and say make a keli (VESSEL) your making your keli good for you and there are plenty of middle guys i promise

    similar situation
    Guest
    similar situation

    i pretty much feel the same way. i went through the “system” as you said. and, after a year of trying out teaching, i realized that it is not for me. i did very well throughout my school years (both academically and behavior wise), as well, i am very strong in my beliefs (tznius…) after going through the system, i decided to pursue a career that involves the need to study in college. by doing so, i hope to be successful and , when the time comes, not have to rely solely on the paycheck of my husband. my dream… Read more »

    a middle boy out there
    Guest
    a middle boy out there

    Very well said as a guy it has been rather frustrating. on the one hand were supposed to folow ”the system” but then after we get married were stuck cuz now here we are with a wife to support, and soon a family, and no means to do so because weve been sitting in 770 and could not chas vshalom go to (gasp) college to get a decent job, so you canwin eiether way. agree that there are definetely different levels would even say tat there is a level in between your level 2 and 3 but wongo there now.hope… Read more »

    Guest

    you have all the rights in the world to go to college and get a good job and paycheck instead of struggling like most of these people do to pay for tuition,rent,mortgage,food and basic necessities. i don’t blame u for wanting to get a normal job as opposed to working as a teacher and getting minimum wage and scraping out their money…

    think inside your box
    Guest
    think inside your box

    well im not sure if this advice will help you but here goes.Firstly dont worry so much about the labels /categories – know where YOU stand and where YOU are going in life and then when you start dating you will have a clearer picture of what yo want.Also remember the whole dating thing means that you will go out with boys not exactly in the “category “you are lookig for but that is all part of the process in finding your zivug.Focus on the good qualities you are looking for and most importantly is he a mentch?(i know this… Read more »

    Open minded
    Guest
    Open minded

    I see you’re pretty open minded. Therefore, I think you should understand that there are not just 3 types of people (I specifically refrain from using the word level, because (call me a liberal) I think the various viewpoints hold some value). Every person is different and every person puts emphasis on different aspects of Judaism and Chassidus. And yes, there are plenty of people who think as you do.

    A middle bochur
    Guest
    A middle bochur

    There are plenty of middle bochurim out there. I wouldnt necessarily group them the same exact way you did but there are plenty of guys out there just like me!!!

    very intresting
    Guest
    very intresting

    very well written straight to the point
    i just want to tell you there is middle people out there!

    Lefty
    Guest
    Lefty

    There are people in the middle. There are people in the community that only have the blind eye and only see either the chosidish or the bum. However there are many middle boys and girls. These are the ones that have a hard time finding a shiduch.

    Important questions
    Guest
    Important questions

    B”H, Your questions are important to ask, thank you for asking them, in turn causing me to think about them. 1. Your definitions are wrong. There are really 2 definitions, those who aspire to grow, and those that are totally comfortable with their spiritual standing and have absolutely no desire for growth. In these 2 definitions there is no middle ground, either you consider yourself sorted in life, or you are aware of your deficiencies and seek to grow. A chassidish person is one who seeks to grow, and a bum is someone whose comfortable not growing. In EACH ONE… Read more »

    YOU HAPPEN TO BE 100% CORRECT!
    Guest
    YOU HAPPEN TO BE 100% CORRECT!

    i am a bochur who is not chassidishe with the whole hat and jacket thing going on but i will tell you that i keep to torah and shulchan aruch pretty well (obviously it could be better). I have not gone to college nor do i plan on it for the reasons that are given in the rebbes sichos but i do understand why you have decided to take another route in this area. Not to say that what u have done is wrong c’v but i think the rebbe was more prone to giving his ok to going to… Read more »

    Wow
    Guest
    Wow

    You are amazing for capturing what so many girls are thinking and feeling. Girls who don’t follow CH’s system, really just ‘don’t fit the mold’ as you say, and are and always will, be looked down upon.
    I don’t have any answers to your questions, but I do identify with what you’re feeling. I think you’re going in with the right mindset and you seem strong. You seem connected to the Rebbe. Go after what you want, not what the community wants.
    Thank you again! I hope lots of girls see this

    okay article
    Guest
    okay article

    You did great until you started characterizing people (putting everyone into different groups). i must say some of us guys are looking for a girl that’s in college trying to further their education. And what about some of us that walk around in flip flops, but yet go to mikvah and daven with a minyan. You cannot generalize like that all. What I have to say, live your own life!!! Don’t fall for what other people have to say; you’re the only one that know what’s best for you. So go to college make a living and BTW, there are… Read more »

    levels
    Guest
    levels

    there are not 3 levels. there are hundreds. you need to figure out where U feel comfortable and stop living your life according to other’s expectations. you will find a guy iyh who is on par with your levels of observance, not ur teachers, ur parents, ur friends, only u.

    Frum not Chasidish
    Guest
    Frum not Chasidish

    As a (part-time) shadchan and shliach (full-time)I can tell yo that thare is a middle, I just wouldn’t call it “chasidish”, I would call it frum. You cannot be Chasidish and listen to Matisyahu! There are many guys like this and I don’t understand why you would think that there are not. Religious adherence has a spectrum and there are people all across the spectrum, including people that only go to shul once a year. If you went to a college, for better or for worse you have wantonly exposed yourself to secular world and most Chasidishe guys are not… Read more »

    Missing a few screws
    Guest
    Missing a few screws

    Kid, what sem did you go to that was such a ‘top sem’ but never knocked some sense into you???!!

    Nice letter
    Guest
    Nice letter

    There definately is a middle group and you will find someone like that for yourself.

    I NEVER post comments on COL!
    Guest
    I NEVER post comments on COL!

    I am not one of those that even checks it daily or needs to know every little thing that is going on and when its happening…….however, I read your article and I wanted you to know your not alone; I do feel your pain. I’ve gone through the system, but I look at it a little differently. I think boruch Hashem we have a “system” in place that leads us and guides us on the right path. Otherwise, so many times throughout our life it would have been so easy to get lost! Yet we thankfully have a rope to… Read more »

    FACTS
    Guest
    FACTS

    1) As evident ( just look around the neighberhood ), many are runing to the exit doors from these old assumptions. More and more people are realizing that in order to keep up with parnasa, tuition bills etc. you must have a professional education, any other “story line” that you may hear does not meat realety. 2) You will be hearing different names of people who “made it” in life without education, but they won’t tell you that majorety of the uneducated people need to rely on government programs to survive!!!! 3) Many will attack you for your lack of… Read more »

    To #51
    Guest
    To #51

    UR SOO RIGHT

    In betweenie
    Guest
    In betweenie

    I call the middle levels between 2 and 3 “In betweenies” There is a huge range of people that are in the gray area.. For example, myself. 🙂

    To: I NEVER post comments on COL!
    Guest
    To: I NEVER post comments on COL!

    Hahahaha about the last thing you said: They say the same thing about the guys. ‘You should marry a girl thats on a higher level, cuz the woman brings up the man’ very cute 🙂

    If college is sinful...
    Guest
    If college is sinful...

    For those who are berating her for having the sinful thought of going to college to earn an honest living, please answer one question. Why is going to college so much worse than living a life of dishonesty? Let’s face it, many families get the maximum in government benefits by hiding income, getting paid in cash etc. And they have to fudge the truth on their applications and tax returns. And our yeshivos fudge the truth too. And it’s all justified because that’s what you need to do to survive. But halachically, isn’t that problematic too? Isn’t that a threat… Read more »

    The Irony...
    Guest
    The Irony...

    Ironic how attending College & University in Lubavitch is frowned upon, only to be celebrated when you earn enough to make a donation….
    G-d help us all; look how long we are without a leader to guide us.

    To: FACTS
    Guest
    To: FACTS

    SOOOO TRUEE. Love how you put it
    You should make that into a petition. See how many people sign it.

    been there/done that
    Guest
    been there/done that

    The Rebbe was clear about the people who survived college ‘intact’ were exceptions and not the rule. That’s when middle level will descend to lower level and even off the chart altogether, c”v. I speak from the experience of my child who is no longer frum. You can’t even imagine the craziness that exists in colleges these days. It’s even so much worse than in the times that the Rebbe spoke about this.
    By the way, the vast majority of shidduch aged kids are in the ‘middle’ category.

    frum
    Guest
    frum

    listening to matisyahu means ur frum! BUT NOT CHASSIDISH
    any chassidishe boy or girl should not listen to that garbage!

    Personal life needs personal advice
    Guest
    Personal life needs personal advice

    I had the same dilemma coming out of seminary. There are a few choices out their other than teaching. There are frum/all women colleges that are perfectly qualified, online classes, one on one instructors, and on the job learning. I think it most important to speak honestly to your parents and mashpia to decipher what atmosphere you will grow in, (and not the opposite), and what is appropriate for you. Almost nothing in the world is black and white, that’s why we have mashpiim and people who we trust for personal advice. Where would we be without them?

    -a post-sem girl

    To 19
    Guest
    To 19

    These are very ‘nice words’. But before 3. Tamuz the Rebbe gave people advice.

    To 21
    Guest
    To 21

    Call F.E.G.S. (212) 524-1728. They help people pay for vocational training in so many fields. Yes, the classes are secular and co-ed but they are usually much shorter than a college degree. You mentioned you have no skills, well this grant program will help you every step of the way. They will help you decide what field to go into, get you started with a school, pay 2/3 of your tuition, and help you find a job once you earn your certificate.
    Good luck 🙂

    WOW #32
    Guest
    WOW #32

    I really enjoyed reading your comment!
    You got ur head straight on!

    my thoughts...
    Guest
    my thoughts...

    You are not first or last person to come up with this argument (I heard it a million times and had many discussions about it) I would like to address few things you wrote. I’m not telling you what to do/ why you’re right or wrong, just trying to give a bigger perspective on what you’re discussing. (and I am in same stage as you- I’m not older person who doesn’t have those struggles, or still in high school with no clue about what it’s really like.) 1) You wrote “Regular chassidish”. Don’t associate frumkeit with chassidishkeit. Being frum, is… Read more »

    just a yid
    Guest
    just a yid

    Good luck, for sure there is someone out their for you, on the level your looking for, just have faith in Hashem, daven and say tehillim

    Too many bad teachers.
    Guest
    Too many bad teachers.

    Not everyone who finishes sem can teach. I am a university educated teacher in one of the Rebbe’s moisdos and I got my secular education before I became frum. I am knh now the mother of many including shluchim, and I have seen mant ‘teachers’ teaching so badly. Having smicha or a sem education does not make you a teacher. Go to Touro if you can or even a Bais Yaacov tertiary institution. Two of my kids went to a secular university, one before marriage, one after smicha and marriage. B”H both are still ‘good’ frum young men, but I… Read more »

    Agree
    Guest
    Agree

    there are most definitely many boys (and girls) in the middle.

    in a world of angels or robots everyone fits into 1 mold.

    open question
    Guest
    open question

    What do you think of starting to date a girl/boy first by phone?
    and it may be some time before you actually meet him/her

    the author
    Guest
    the author

    I would like to clarify what i meant by three levels. When i wrote that i had in mind that they were the 3 basic levels but there are definitely the gray parts.
    And thank you for your encouragement 🙂

    to #10
    Guest
    to #10

    how can we find out about them?

    To the author and all the confused folk!!!
    Guest
    To the author and all the confused folk!!!

    I very much disagree with you. There is a 4th level, boys who are like myself who are open minded and like shopping touring up to date with news and want to go on shlichus and want to build a chassidishe house. Please don’t just assume that everyone must fit in to one of your preconceived levels I think your idea of marriage is totally distorted and you need help and I think you need to speak to someone who can really help you. Instead is ranting your strange ideas on this forum I think you should have attended rabbi… Read more »

    The Rebbe wants your good
    Guest
    The Rebbe wants your good

    The big problem is that we look at the Rebbe’s directive as a negative constraining rule “no college”. We just have to remember that everything the Rebbe told us, he said out of pure love for each and every one of us. The Rebbe’s directive of not going to college is for our good. The Rebbe has a much broader picture of things than we do. Not always do we see what the Rebbe sees. However, we believe in what he says, that is what makes him OUR Rebbe. We trust that he sees the bigger picture and is advising… Read more »

    No such thing as klalim
    Guest
    No such thing as klalim

    Bchlal the Rebbe is against going to college. But there are many exceptions to this klal. The constant is that in all cases one must speak with a mashpia. I B’H just finished college. Under the direction of my mashpia. I am most definitely not “irreversibly poisoned,” because I went about it al pi Torah and hadracha. This is not a davar poshut and most definitely shouldn’t be decided by hearing from the hamon am who have no idea what your specific matzav is. Speak to your mashpia. Discuss all the factors and then have the two of you come… Read more »

    Been there, a bit of advice.
    Guest
    Been there, a bit of advice.

    This is coming from a girl who was in your exact situation. Just so you know, there are middle guys out there, i found one and i am BH very happy! I am sure that you will find yours too. As far as college is concerned, i didn’t go to college until i was married because of the aforementioned “Stigma” that comes along with it. I strongly regret that decision. GO TO COLLEGE NOW, DONT WASTE ANY TIME. If i had gone to college while i was still single, i would be done with my degree by now and hopefully… Read more »

    college
    Guest
    college

    Once you’re married and settled if you must, then talk to someone (Mashpia,Rav etc) I’m sure it wont be such a “bad thing “then.

    solution
    Guest
    solution

    go to stern college which is VERY respectable and frum or you can go to touro too

    Yosef Goldman
    Guest
    Yosef Goldman

    I feel bad that this girl is a bit unclear. Stop caring what other people think about you. Decide what you want in life. Decide what type of guy you want, and go ahead with it. Every year it’s more widely accepted that a guy with a job, is a great thing. We are still in the time of transition, but there is no need to worry about everyone else’s comments. You marry a frum guy, you will be fine. you want to get a job, you will be fine. Just do it. Is there a middle group, is there… Read more »

    a college student
    Guest
    a college student

    Go to Touro or any program like Touro (there are a few of them in the Brooklyn area) The classes are totally separate and there are plenty of girls from CH there.

    this wasn't me!
    Guest
    this wasn't me!

    I know my whole family that is reading this thinks that I wrote it, it wasn’t me! God I hate when articles appear on col and they sound similer to me and my family makes fun of me for weeks afterwards. It wasn’t me!

    TOP SECRET!!!!!
    Guest
    TOP SECRET!!!!!

    learning in 770 can mean many things,from actualy learning,down to travelling the world,sleeping the whole day,sitting on the internet the whole day smoking and using food stamps to just fress away,it is not so clear cut,even the “770 bochurim” may have allot under there sleeves which people dont know about

    OY!!!! THE REBBE TOLD US WHAT DO!!
    Guest
    OY!!!! THE REBBE TOLD US WHAT DO!!

    Think of neone u know who wen to college at least b4 marriage- how did they turn out? not very good:) prob btwn ur middle and low category (which btw, there are many many many more categories!!!) My brother in law’s brother went to college ad hes not frum nemore! i was shocked but not surprised cuz thats what college does to ya!…dont fool urself. The rebbe told us what must be done- ITS SAD THAT WE CANT FOLLOW WHAT THE REBBE TOLD US!!! for those of you who say that we pick when to do the rebbes horaos- those… Read more »

    Points to ponder. . .
    Guest
    Points to ponder. . .

    I think that rather than use the word system, a person’s
    goal should be to serve the Aibishter. Of course, there
    are some prerequisites. With the help of
    a mashpia, a person can find an acceptable way to
    acquire the necessary job skills. It’s important to remember that Parnassa comes from the Aibishter — all we can do is make the Kali. As we all know that there
    are college graduates who are unemployed and there
    are those who never when to college and are extremely
    successful. Hatzlocha Rabbah!1

    To 89
    Guest
    To 89

    Wow! My family thinks it was me too! I think we are a match!

    Bachur
    Guest
    Bachur

    I dont have patience to read all the comments but you are one hundred percent right and as a Bachur I wonder the same thing from the other side, every girl seems to be super Chassidish or a girl who’s skirt is a couple inches too short

    some personal expereience...
    Guest
    some personal expereience...

    In general, if after thinking long and hard on what you should do with your life, and your final conclusion is that the only job your interested in requires you to go to a non Jewish college. Then that desire for that job could possibly be from the evil side. We must remember that we don’t just have a yetzer hara (emotions) but also a nefesh habhamis (intellect). meaning that it doesn’t just pull us by our emotions but it uses our brains to reconcile what it wants. And it knows what damage it could do by having one go… Read more »

    i once heard...
    Guest
    i once heard...

    …that labels and catagories are for clothes and not ppl, there are all kinds of individuals out there, just need to find that perfect someone, and for some unknown reason there are those that have a longer wait 🙁 but have a little faith in the future, they say that he is well worth the wait

    shliach to 81
    Guest
    shliach to 81

    BLN i will print out your comment, who are you ?ashrenu tov mah tov chelku , ashrenu for our Rebbe!
    Thank you

    degrees
    Guest
    degrees

    I live out of town. There is a litvish community here, and most of the women have degrees. They probably got them from Touro or Stern. Their husbands can learn or be in chinuch, and they can, if they have to bring in a nice salary. If a husband is out of a job, they can step in and help, even if it’s temporary. Some can earn $30 an hour or even $70! an hour! I think it’s good to have something to fall back on, and once one’s kid’s are raised they can get a job that pays!! I… Read more »

    NOT TRUE
    Guest
    NOT TRUE

    Lots and lots of guys are like that!!! but that is all petty! first check if the guy will be a nice, caring ,and loving father etc
    This whole level garbage is a stupid misconception that is utterly false!!! I know ten guys that are in grey areas between 1 and 3 including myself. DO I HEAR SINGLE EVENTS 🙂

    to 70
    Guest
    to 70

    what exactly are you trying to say?

    a 20 yr old bochur
    Guest
    a 20 yr old bochur

    I have a lot to write on this topic, but I’m.sure they’re all covered by all the previous commentators. Just a note a little of the main points being discussed here, but in my opinion very much to do with it, and that is: There’s a VERY big problem in many YESHIVOS (and sems, as I can understand from your article), and that is: They fail to pay attention to their bochurim/girls need to have a Mashpia. They talk about it time and time again, and it’s mentioned all over the place. But some how it took me 6 years… Read more »

    Regarding the Matisyahu Comments
    Guest
    Regarding the Matisyahu Comments

    BS”D I hate to take away from the etsom discussion regarding shidduchim, frumkeit and college, but I think it’s important to address the comments made about people that “listen to Matisyahu”. I am a Lubavitch woman, with a great mashpia (whom I spent YEARS searching for) and a Rav (actually 2 of them, for different topics), learn Chitas, and love the Rebbe with my whole heart. I realize that Matisyahu does not have the same spiritual benefits as negina, but that doesn’t make your statement any less of an inappropriate judgement or stereotype. I have determined that in my life,… Read more »

    WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND
    Guest
    WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND

    This whole letter brings up another serious issue! forget the college thing, because thats no big deal. Forget teh catagory thing, becasue that is totally off ( so many different levels of people) MY ISSUE IS WHAY ARE PEOPLE LYING TO THEMSELVES!!!!! theres this whole game that everyone plays, he wears jeens he must be a catgory three, not good enough for my catagory two!! COMON, dont pretend that you are higher than you are so people will autimatically take you down a level.. be honest. And seriously, giv the guy/girl a chance to prove him/herself. The problem is the… Read more »

    collage? A LUBAVITCHER?
    Guest
    collage? A LUBAVITCHER?

    how do you write……..” that you know the rebbe said you should not go to collage..but tachlis” when the rebbe says something he means it it is true saying that tachlis is not suppose to be a lubavitcher girl saying it because the rebbe is tachlis h’emas and shAME FOR YOU FOR WRITING THAT

    source
    Guest
    source

    btw in this weeks likutei sichos,shmos chalek aleph. the rebbe speaks strongly against college. not saying that its easy or anything,but being a bochur that been to shluchim on campus a bunch of times i gotta say the frumie’s there have a %10 survival rate (obviously that would depend on where u would go..) back in the day the nisayon was not working on shabbos (i was gonna say keeping a beard,but seems that it still is ;)) today its not going to college. back in the day not working on shabbos was unheard of,u cant just close your buisness.… Read more »

    A bochur
    Guest
    A bochur

    Sorry I’m too lazy now to read all the comments 😉
    YES THERE ARE THREE LEVELS AND THE MIDDLE ONE IS DIVIDED INTO MANY OTHER GROUPS.
    I WOULD CONSIDER MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE GROUP BUT I WEAR A WHITE SHIRT AND PLAN TO GO ON SHLICHUS. WHAT TYPE OF SHLICHUS ? DONT KNOW. BUT DEFINITLY SHLICHUS. Also in the middle group you have guys who watch movies or watched. There are lots of different details
    P.S. Turo is a Jewish collage and I believe they teach all subjects.

    attn; 73
    Guest
    attn; 73

    Very well said.
    But please realize that the only way, to actually be a frume yid, is to stick to what the Rebbe teaches and guides us, as for your parables – The Rebbe is our instructor. Every generation has his instructor who knows the challenges & reality’s of that generation.
    That’s what Torah says.

    So before Everyone goes to categorize “ch’sidish” & “frum”, let’s keep focused on the reality of the matter.
    its not just 15-20 years ago, but today too
    this is the reality.

    You expressed it perfectly
    Guest
    You expressed it perfectly

    I really appreciate you for writing this. I had a HUGE issue deciding what to do with my years before marriage. I wanted to use my years productively, working toward my future. I didnt want to sit in an apartment in CH doing something I didnt enjoy. You will find a guy who is right for you, and appreciates you for all that you are. I did.

    Advice
    Guest
    Advice

    before going to college, get a mashpia that you can talk to regularly. Things there affect you, although we think they dont

    to #63
    Guest
    to #63

    (gosh, i must be really bored if I am commenting again :)) But anyway, your right :). The thing is – its possible, because everyone is on a higher level in a different area of their life and middos, so find someone’s strength that compliment your strengths and each will bring the other one up!!

    the  irony...
    Guest
    the irony...

    The irony of all of this is that it is unacceptable to attend college but perfectly acceptable to pursue and accept the proceeds of that education for support of the moisdos. Unbelievable

    there are a lot of options
    Guest
    there are a lot of options

    i think a great option for jewish boys and girls who want to go to college is yeshiva university or the girls stern college for women
    or perhaps touro
    goodluck!

    To 101
    Guest
    To 101

    When the torah tots dress up in a santa suit and half untznius women in their DVDs let’s talk. Until then matisyahu is treif now.

    #51 spot on!
    Guest
    #51 spot on!

    I think the article is very relavent. It’s sad to see all the judgmental comments which is a clear example of what our “system” is accomplishing. How much greater would lubavitch be if boys and girls were’nt labeled and talked about for stupid things, such as wearng jeans etc. The tragedy of the “system” is that when a guy/girl does one thing that is out of line system wise, not even necesarily Jewish wise, he is labeled and looked down which in most cases causes him/her to start believing the label that they have recieved is true and molds them… Read more »

    dear distraught damsel
    Guest
    dear distraught damsel

    Mitoch Hadvorim, it’s quite apparent you don’t get out much. The article fairly yells at the world “I have no ideawhat goes on outside my immediate famil.” You wanna get hitched? Become socially active. Go to a friends house, not just your own, every second or third shabbos. Go on trips. Join a gym group. Visit Shluchim and Chabad Houses. Organize farbrengens. Eat Chulent. (I’m not sure how that last one is relevant, but the golden rule is: Chulent can never hurt.) I can’t assure you this will help, but I will say if you aren’t doing any of this… Read more »

    Who created these three levels?!?!?!
    Guest
    Who created these three levels?!?!?!

    There are no such thing as levels!!!! Let’s go back to when the Rebbe was standing in 770, there were no “levels” and categories! There is one line between what separates you as a Chabadnik or not and that is defined by whether or not you are Chabad in accordance with the Rebbe’s definition not anyone elses. You either practice the lifestyle of a Lubavitcher i.e. no movies, learning, shluchos and follow the way in which the Rebbe led or you don’t. If you don’t then you might like to consider yourself a Chabadnik but in reality you are a… Read more »

    re #51
    Guest
    re #51

    You are right on the money. Was going to comment and then read what you wrote. Big ups!!

    u r a nieve person
    Guest
    u r a nieve person

    Wake up!!!

    OT, Collage grad
    Guest
    OT, Collage grad

    Been through it all. Farbrengens, Oholei Torah, Shlichus, and…. a BA from a frum college too. After the fact, I can tell you for a fact that you will be exposed to knowledge that is clearly against yidishkeit. the problem is that it is hidden between the lines in your history books, psychology, litereture. They plant the seeds in a subtle way in which most of us fail to notice. History: Lincoln freed the slaves because we were all created equal; we are a multicultural society where a Jew has absolutely no uniqueness whatsoever with respect to Hispanics, African Americans,… Read more »

    Not THE system.......ITS THE SHIDDUCH SYSTEM!!
    Guest
    Not THE system.......ITS THE SHIDDUCH SYSTEM!!

    I am sorry to say that everybody is wrong. Every type of person can exist in our system. What is failing the middle group is the Shidduch System. I myself was a middle of the line type of girl. I went college and at 23 found myself single. My parents worked so hard with shadchanim to find appropriate names, they never had any. I was very lucky that my parents and extended family worked really hard and were persistent. Finally, before my 24th birthday I met my besheret thanks to my family (the shadchanim never mentioned him). I think Shadchanim… Read more »

    Mushka B.
    Guest
    Mushka B.

    This really doesnt sit right with me I dont feel like a chassidish girl needs only be thinking about torah. human, healthy balance is an important part of who every person should be. right along with chassidish…

    To 31
    Guest
    To 31

    “girls are frumer….more educated”

    I agree that girls are more frum, and I agree its cause they’re more educated (i don’t know if this is what u meant). When I say educated I’m talking about secular education.

    Girls can feel comfortable being frum and not despondant but guys feel like they were cheated out of basic life skills in the name of religion and some choose to throw it all away because of that.

    Considering Leaving
    Guest
    Considering Leaving

    I am a BT through a Chabad house, and moved to CH almost four years ago. I have both a masters and a PhD in Educational Administration. I cannot find a shidduch nor a job in Lubavitch because I am educated in something other than Gemara. I do not touch my beard, and I wear a hat and jacked, yet I had to find a SECULAR school job becuase nobody in chabad wanted someone with so much secular education, even if I could be a great asset to their school. I will always be a chossid of the Rebbe, but… Read more »

    TO ALL OF YOU!!!
    Guest
    TO ALL OF YOU!!!

    WE live in a different world than 40 or 50 years ago. The powers that be must face these challenges!!! WE are no longer farmers and artisans. This girl deserves our respect and and answer not judgement like many of us recieved. IT is a very pertinent and practical question. Our yeshivas have to help the children find their proper place in society. not everyone can be a shliach or an educator. PLEASE NOT EDUCATORS . THE CHILDREN THAT YOU PUSH AWAY TODAY FOR YOUR PERCIEVED NOTIONS THAT THEY ARE NOT CHASSIDISH ENOUGH ARE THE SAME ONES YOU WILL PROBABLY… Read more »

    I might be a "3"
    Guest
    I might be a "3"

    I’m pretty disappointed from all the people in here who writes that going to college makes one not a chossid. First of all, my mother got a letter from the rebbe regarding what career to choose. Second, after finishing the system and trying to get a job, I went from one to the next because I wanted to know that I could start a family without putting them through a life of low living standards. At the end of the day, we aren’t all entrapenaurs and I ended up making from 15-18 dollars an hour. This is not enough to… Read more »

    From a Boy who was called a bum for going to college
    Guest
    From a Boy who was called a bum for going to college

    I was called a bum in the early 90’s when I walked to the train dwon kingston ave. why? because I didnt wear my hat and jacket and didn’t look the cut as required in the Ghetto life handbook. There was nothing wrong with me. I was frum Davened three times a day, learnt a little as well. But the bottomline was I coulnd sit in yeshiva all day. So when I was 18 it was time to get serious. Bottom line is some people are made to learn and some have to work. I dont believe the concept of… Read more »

    Someone who's been there
    Guest
    Someone who's been there

    When I was younger, I went from Yeshivah to Yeshivah, until my parents finally decided to try something else with me, because Yeshivah clearly wasn’t “working for me” (take that how you’d like to take it). In any case, I have been in college for a while (I’m currently on hiatus as I am going to go into the Israeli Army soon), and let me tell you, it is very easy to stray into things from the college environment that a Chassidishe Bochur, and Kal V’Chomer a Chassidishe Maidel, should never get into (namely drugs, drinking, goyishe music, intimate relationships… Read more »

    ok i will say it
    Guest
    ok i will say it

    you think you know people?
    look in your owen plate you have no idea what a chassidesh boy is and your way of analyzing does nothing more then help you sleep at night

    WENT THROUGH THE SYSTEM
    Guest
    WENT THROUGH THE SYSTEM

    HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU GONE TO A DR., ACCT., LAWYER OR ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL WHO IS A GRADUATE OF CHAIM BERLIN, MIR OR ANOTHER LITVISHA YESHIVA. THEY FOUND A GREAT MIDDLE OF THE ROAD APPROACH. THE BOCHUR MADE THE BAIS HAMIDRASH HIS SECOND HOME. WHILE HE WAS GOING TO SCHOOL AND IT MAY HAVE BEEN A CHALLENGING SPIRITUAL ENVIROMENT. THEY SPENT THEIR FREE TIME CONNECTED. THEY SAT AND LEARNED. THEY WERE NOT SHUNNED BY THEIR HANAHALA FOR GOING TO SCHOOL. THEY HAD THE SUPPORT SYSTEM TO HELP THEM STAY FRUM. MAH SH’AIN CAIN IN OUR SYSTEM. OUR HANAHALA WILL SHUN… Read more »

    there r plenty of jewish college that  girls learn there only.
    Guest
    there r plenty of jewish college that girls learn there only.

    There no reason to go to a non jewish college these days. there are plenty of jewish colleges like T.T.I , Sara Shneur,and the seminar hachadash.. that is only girls program and fit for u.

    The answer: A Chasidishe College??
    Guest
    The answer: A Chasidishe College??

    Perhaps this topic, the letter the author wrote, and all the comments can inspire the creation of a “CHASSIDISHE COLLEGE”: Higher “practical” learning, with goals for parnosa, separate seating, taught by only Frum people, with specific skills, “college like” tests, “college like” goals, aimed at creating professions and professionals that are considered “kosher” and where people can make a living (other than teaching) when they graduate, …..all within a respectable, acceptable, modest environment? The author of this article is very bright and very brave to speak her mind and express what is in her heart. She is NOT alone. Those… Read more »

    Ask a mashpia
    Guest
    Ask a mashpia

    Not a whole bunch of people you don’t know and who don’t really know you either. Fact: the Rebbe was against single girls and bochurim going to college. Fact: the Rebbe said each and every one of us needs a Mashpia. There are exceptions to every rule. Maybe you can go to school online? You can get almost any degree online these days. If that’s not an option discuss your exact situation with your Mashpia (get one if you don’t have one!) and maybe there’s a way to do it right. If you and your Mashpia conclude that college is… Read more »

    Parent of Bochur
    Guest
    Parent of Bochur

    Being the parent of a “shidduch eligible” bochur, on some level it is comforting to see that there are girls with “balance”.
    If you would be interested in a bochur with balance please ……………………………………..

    i feel for you
    Guest
    i feel for you

    i really enjoyed reading your article and can hear your feelings in this. Listen. not everyone thinks that way. I would maybe find people to surroud yourself with who support you and arent so judgemental toward you. I believe everyone should have thier personal mashpia and its bet themselves and thier mashpia what they decide they need to do for thier life, noone else. somepeople are bored, unhappy, or just crotical people with issues and they like to put other people down or give them lables? bum??? I dont think so! you sound like a great girl with your head… Read more »

    Problem is Jewish Community
    Guest
    Problem is Jewish Community

    The title is asking if college is a crime….I assume the emphasis here is a crime in terms of marriage prospects, not religiously. It seems like the REAL problem here is that community members are not thinking for themselves. If each person was less concerned about conforming socially and more concerned about the unique derech that Hashem gave them to serve Him (based on their talents, skills, and interests), then we would have much more diversity among our youngsters, and it would be easier to find someone uniquely suited to you. College is not antithetical to being a devoted Jew.… Read more »

    College
    Guest
    College

    I rarely ever read these things, let alone comment on them. But there’s something I want to point out. G-d chose your bashert already. He won’t morph into a monster if you go to college. He won’t die if you go to college. He’s out there, and he’s for you. So you do your best to be the best you now (and if that means feeling like a mentsch by earning a degree so you can make a decent living, then do it. Just take into consideration that there will be some negative effects from college) and don’t worry about… Read more »

    I hope this article doesnt reflect
    Guest
    I hope this article doesnt reflect

    most Crown Heighters. However, given the volume of the response, it seems it may. This article is infantile and extremely simplistic. The world is not black and white. People are not black and white. You can not stick people into categories of your own making. Put yourself in a box, if you wish, but not others. Bottom line, this world is not one-size-fits-all. Consult your parents, or person with strong values that you respect, asking for a consensus from the general public is ineffective and counterproductive. Which one of of the previous 108 comments will you follow? Furthermore, I just… Read more »

    Nice Letter
    Guest
    Nice Letter

    There is really so much to say on this topic. I think that many people do not trust themselves to make their own decisions and that is why they need to rely on the ‘system’. As a girl who came from the top seminaries as well, went to college and is now married with two kids and a masters degree, I think it is really important to think for yourself. In the end, you are the only one who is responsible for the decisions that you make in life. People can give advice or criticize from today till tomorrow, but… Read more »

    to #100
    Guest
    to #100

    I agree with everything u wrote except for renting from wal mart as you call it. I think that such a thing is quite clear cut against Jewish law, not up to any Mashpiim to say otherwise under no circumstances!

    FYI
    Guest
    FYI

    I am in college now, and I just want to let you know that it has made me a stronger jewish woman. Being around non jewish students strengthened my connection to yiddishkeit, and just by living as a jewish woman set an example for one of my not religious classmates to connect to her jewish roots as well. Good luck with everything, and do not allow other peoples opinions to hold you back!

    dear young girl
    Guest
    dear young girl

    i feel for you , You see our own Mosdos caused this problem . The Girls finish highschool,and then comess the parsha of Seminary. You can be the best and you need to be approved by overseas wonderful m;canchos if your daughter is eligilbel or mot to be accepted to their great seminarys. Finally after a weekend of tears your accepted. You finish the year and your back in CHeights ,you go back to your school for Sem beis Rivkah, same teachers as in High school. but no credits fort the year( eventhough any Seminary in Israel gives you 22-40… Read more »

    to 24, 90, and all others who think they know it all...
    Guest
    to 24, 90, and all others who think they know it all...

    i am 26 and happily married b”h to a frum, “normal chassidish” man. when i finished seminary, i was just like the author. i knew that i didnt want to teach…but i didnt know what i wanted to do. so i went on shlichus with a friend. i tought preschool, hebrew school, learned with an adult and helped with all the yom tov programs. i LOVED it. i decided i loved teaching preschool, and thats what i should do. but i was still young and wanted to “live it up” so i went to israel as a seminary dorm counselor-… Read more »

    too all u "middle" singles:
    Guest
    too all u "middle" singles:

    Maybe post the name of one shadchan who can help only the “gray” area singles! Sounds from this article like there r so many that feel like this but you are all still searching!

    To the brave girl who wrote this: well done!
    Go to college & major in journalism!
    Good luck!

    you sounds like an awesome person
    Guest
    you sounds like an awesome person

    i hope you get married very soon!!

    Case by case basis.....
    Guest
    Case by case basis.....

    As a former student of the ULY, I remember distinctly a close friend of mine who was the top student in shiur. A straight Aleph and “A” student.
    He wanted to dedicate his life to learning, but his father believed that he should become a Doctor.
    They went to ask the Rebbe what to do. Surprisingly, the Rebbe told him to become a Doctor.
    Today he is a Dept Chairman is a very big hospital. Beard, kapota and all….

    Get rid of  the Labels
    Guest
    Get rid of the Labels

    I hate how we have come down to categorizing people as Chassidish etc.. I know many people that learn follow the system’s formula and may appear to be “chassidish” but have less than admirable midos. On the other hand, I know people who may not wear a white shirt during the week, go to/went to college who are the kindest people, with exempliary ahavas yisroel. Let’s judge people individually by there actions.

    Right on
    Guest
    Right on

    I am in the the middle and proud..its a healthy balance =)

    my three cents
    Guest
    my three cents

    106 is right, i would put it this way, there are so many levels and that is why it is hard to match up but first of all you the girl are not a bum and each situation is different. The rebbe encouraged working in chinuch but not everyone is cut out for it but just think for a moment if the Rebbe never put his foot down about going to college Who would be on shlichus today, who would be our melamdim and teachers in bais rivkas, who would as a bochur ‘waste’ a year helping a shliach as… Read more »

    same situation
    Guest
    same situation

    First of all, congrats for the article, its so true. What i think is that even in the levels 1 and 3 there are lots of variations. I dont see much difference between a girl that goes to shlichus and dont really pay attencion to tzinius and a girl that is very tzinusdik and goes to college. Just diferent vallues. I can be very machmir in one thing and not in another — every human beign is like that. Hashem did not create us in a mold. Every person is different than the other, so just the fact of putting… Read more »

    To the author
    Guest
    To the author

    Sorry, but despite the fact that you want to pursue the career of “your choice”, there is no excuse to go to a non-frum college.

    This is true even if there were no Frum colleges, how much more so when you have Frum college options.

    A non-frum college is so bad in so many ways for a frum person, there is no room here to even describe it.

    Please make the right choice – don’t go to a non-frum college, and stay a good, religious Jew.

    Are we supposed to love an acsept  every jew?
    Guest
    Are we supposed to love an acsept every jew?

    Why we judje each other?

    college
    Guest
    college

    colleg is not for a religous person we know what gose on ther its not really so kosher so if you whant to get marrid to a chasdushe girl dont go to college

    today
    Guest
    today

    Today life is more expensive,
    Tuitions used to be 2000, now 10, `12, 14 and more
    if we do not get the goverment to pay, like the pay more for each child going to public school, we need to get the money working
    If you are not a business kind person,(there is not waranty that you arre going to make a living anyways) you should have some skills to get paid decent as a worker

    What about a frum college?
    Guest
    What about a frum college?

    What’s wrong with frum colleges like Touro of Stern?

    i think
    Guest
    i think

    now days u have friends or family set ppl up dont need a shaudchan they know how frum you are and how frum the guy is i was was set up once girls family didnt want tv found out few yrs later she married now and has a tv in the house
    best bet have married friends and family sey you up ppl they know who are on the same level you think u on

    Someone who's been there
    Guest
    Someone who's been there

    When I was younger, I went from Yeshivah to Yeshivah, until my parents finally decided to try something else with me, because Yeshivah clearly wasn’t “working for me” (take that how you’d like to take it). In any case, I have been in college for a while (I’m currently on hiatus as I am going to go into the Israeli Army soon), and let me tell you, it is very easy to stray into things from the college environment that a Chassidishe Bochur, and Kal V’Chomer a Chassidishe Maidel, should never get into (namely drugs, drinking, goyishe music, intimate relationships… Read more »

    Soul searching
    Guest
    Soul searching

    what’s my level ? boys who are open minded, don’t really daven,like shopping, touring ,Sports ,movies , up to date with news, and want to go on shlichus?

    Can we provide for our own?
    Guest
    Can we provide for our own?

    Is it not possible to provide our own KOSHER colleges for those waiting for shidduchim?

    Separate boys and girls colleges in a safe frum and Chassidish enviironment. Having a secular qualification these days can really boost your salary.

    To 122
    Guest
    To 122

    Please email me at shiduchhelp@gmail.com
    I might be have a prospect for you.

    growing at my own pace
    Guest
    growing at my own pace

    I dont think that there are just three levels. there are billions of levels and everyone is at a different one and they are growing at their own pace. (hopefully growing) just because you dont learn sichos it doesnt mean you are not very chassidush! (what if you are not a learner, but if you hear about a horaah and act upon it, its also fine. or your tznius, etc. . . there shouldnt be any judging, about levels. Inorder to find your bashert, just make sure the other party, has the same goals as you and that you are… Read more »

    YES!!
    Guest
    YES!!

    I’M DIYING TO GO TO COLLEGE TOO.
    I know a very Vhsidishe bochur… blabla bla…
    Check the Igros of the Rebbe and make your own choice..

    a mench
    Guest
    a mench

    im with 127

    get a mashpia
    Guest
    get a mashpia

    Read comments # 100, 131, and 136. To get an idea from some wise people!

    You don't know what the future holds.
    Guest
    You don't know what the future holds.

    What about the many many college graduates who do NOT have a job. College does not always result in parnossa.

    I thought your essay was going to be about families who reject shidduchim suggestions because the person suggested went to college. Or one of the criteria is that the person did not go to college.

    Instead it became an essay about levels.

    What is your real point?

    My Opinion-to the author
    Guest
    My Opinion-to the author

    I understand your feeling! I am actually sure you should go to college! I personally am studying to be a therapist in graduate school. why? not only because i feel i am meant to be one to help many children but also so i can earn a very respectable living (along with my husband who has a career and full college/grad school education) and so i dont have to worry about earning a living and depriving my kids. You can very well be religious and still go to college. Yes, hashem helps w/money but also education. Im sorry but NO… Read more »

    SAD
    Guest
    SAD

    the problem is that girls don’t know what they want. They are brainwashed by their idiotic highschool teachers that if a boy doesnt want to go on shlichus he isn’t chassidish. The female perspective of chassidish is very different than the boy’s perspective of chassidish, and that’s where all the problems start. Also, just because a boy wears a hat and jackey doesnt automatically make him chassidish, and just because a boy doesn’t daven with a minyan three times doesn’t automattically make him a “bum”. The sad part is that shlichus isn’t really an option now and most girls high… Read more »

    OF COURSE
    Guest
    OF COURSE

    There are plenty of guys on level 2 and as many people said there are hardly any on level 1 and there are many more than just these 3 levels.

    College
    Guest
    College

    If you want to go the College in order to help support the family there is on-line college or Touro College. I went to Touro in Boro Park with only Chasidisha girls/woman and I have no regrets. Good Luck

    E. Richler
    Guest
    E. Richler

    If you and your mashpia truly believe that your actions are acceptable to Hashem and the Rebbe then the opinions of the general public should not matter.

    As for categories, I believe they are useless in matters of Shidduchim. By definition marriage is between two individuals, not two categories. Therefore one must examine the characteristics of the individual, not the category.

    Not just about the money...
    Guest
    Not just about the money...

    Going to College/University is not only about prospective money. It’s also about having a sense of self-worth, feeling good about something that you want to do, being pro-active about life and not just waiting around for it to happen for you (And a host of other reasons…) For all those commentating about going to Jewish colleges, not all of us are so lucky to live in CH, or the tri-state area, and we don’t all have the options that you do. Oh and talking about money, it’s 2010, I can’t talk for other girls, but I personally don’t think it… Read more »

    Wow so
    Guest
    Wow so

    To 156#
    You have. No level because u r not totally cool nor a chassidish fake – u sound like a good catch……
    Davening and learning are important for life though

    To the author - and whoever else it applies to..
    Guest
    To the author - and whoever else it applies to..

    I agree with the underlining concept of what you’re saying. However I don’t think you can categorize people like that. People are so multi-faceted, that to try and label the whole Chabad into 3 boxes is not going to work – but I understand where you’re coming from, because it’s what everyone does to us. I think forget the labels, and just concentrate on who you want to be. I decided before starting University, that if a guy doesn’t want to go out with me because of that, then he’s not for me anyway, because evidently we’re on different pages.… Read more »

    Know who you are
    Guest
    Know who you are

    The people who don’t have strong characters, or who aren’t sure about themselves don’t need to go to College/University to be influenced into something negative. It can happen in the purest of places. Those who have a strong sense of identity, pride in being Jewish, and are determined to get a degree, and have a solid support system, then G-d willing they should be ok. I’m not advocating people should go, because it’s not suitable for a lot of people, especially perhaps if they grew up in a very insular environment, however there are some people that it might be… Read more »

    pirde
    Guest
    pirde

    if my son’s were older, i would be proud of someone like you as a daughter in law

    Shober8
    Guest
    Shober8

    All the above I can relate to. the one message which I would like to portray is the following: Marriage is not a union of two people it is a REunion of one soul.Hence whatever the issues are,which are many, this does not rectify the situation, but it can help someone relate to the issues better if they know the above.I wish you the best of luck.and hope that at least for you these issues are resolved fast.I also would like to commend you on the “guts” to publish this.some people would mock it but even if the mocker doesn’t… Read more »

    disagree!!
    Guest
    disagree!!

    A. There are many more levels than 1,2, and 3! B. If you don’t want to go on shlichus then go to college AFTER you are married!! College majorly affects single girls in the bad way, it doesn’t really once you are married!
    Good luck in all your endeavors!

    Okay, There is a problem.
    Guest
    Okay, There is a problem.

    I think we can all agree that there is a problem here, on the one hand going to college is not very good for your ‘Frumkeit’, but on the other hand many people will struggle without it.
    I think that something can be worked out.

    You hit the nail right on the head!
    Guest
    You hit the nail right on the head!

    As long as you are doing what you should be, acting as a bas yisroel and setting a responsible example -you are making a kiddush Hashem. Know that going into these places will be a test for you of your fatih and commitment to frumkiet on a daily basis – whether you realize or not. Many people are not strong enough to undergo these trials. And we don’t realize how much influence the people and the outside world really have on us yidden. It influences every aspect of our lives, from our music, dress, hairstyles, behavoir, our food, even the… Read more »

    You have it all wrong
    Guest
    You have it all wrong

    College = bum?

    No! every single college is not a party zone it depends where you are, where you hang out and what classes you take.

    There are graduate schools for example law school, medical school where almost 90% of the students are focused on getting their degree and have no time for parties nor do they care of your religious affiliation.

    EXTREMELY WELL WRITTEN
    Guest
    EXTREMELY WELL WRITTEN

    Most people today are Regular Chssidish ——- the Middle level & have plans on working in the future.
    The thing is that majority of them, are not sure of what to do, and which Avenue to take. That’s why we all need a Mashpia and a Rav.

    rly well writen
    Guest
    rly well writen

    i feel like a lot of girls are in the same position as you and theres no one to rly turn to.
    i like it how evryone is like GET A MASHPIA
    its not easy . u have to find the right person and sometimes ure scared to tell all these things to ure mashpia.

    770 guys
    Guest
    770 guys

    its all a load of rubbish!
    a number of the “chasidish” guys in 770 are there just to keep the seat warm they dont really want to be there!
    there are even guys that touch there beards that are more chasidish then them like they will go to a shiur in the week and do chitas even when there is no one around to impress and they def more down to earth!

    yes!
    Guest
    yes!

    yes going to to college is one of the worst crimes!!!!

    it's more than that
    Guest
    it's more than that

    I’m what you’d consider a bum, but i wouldn’t want my kids having a TV or computer.

    Children do and can watch TV programs, and movies on computers,computers.

    Well said
    Guest
    Well said

    online college is not a crime.

    To the author
    Guest
    To the author

    Just want to say that I feel for you, and highly encourage you to discuss this issue with your mashpia who understands your personal situation. I have addressed this issue at length (albeit from a bochur’s perspective) in comments to an earlier COL article entitled “My Husband Lost His Job, Again”. Please look at comments # 94, 163, 166, 167, 207 and 211 of that article. My main point is that earning a degree is one step prior to working to support your family. This is an obligation according to the Torah, and should not be discouraged. It’s a bit… Read more »

    dark world
    Guest
    dark world

    Its very difficult to figure out what to do in life.
    One needs to be very snsible.
    Its all very nice to have dreams.

    tell me, are you lubavitch?
    Guest
    tell me, are you lubavitch?

    “im not such a tzadeikes”

    based on your letter it doesent look like youre “such a chossid either”. get a mashpia, and stop speaking about the rebbes words like they dont apply to you.

    btw col live is for chabad chassidim, not snags.

    you wanna be a bum, be a bum, just dont have taanos

    system
    Guest
    system

    Following a system creates a seder in ones life!
    If one doesen’t follow the system it doesn’t mean that he or she is a bum. ‘Dofferent strokes for different folkes’

    Answers
    Guest
    Answers

    1. Are there really no middle boys out there? >>Not only are there middle boys and girls (#2) out there, there are also #1.01 to #1.99, #2.01 to #2.99, >>and #3.01 to …, well you get the point, as mentioned before by others, there are plenty of gray areas, >>and there is a Bochur out there for a girl in every situation, B”H, and vice versa, B”H 2. Why is it that if one doesn’t follow the exact system that the world is following, they are considered a bum (even though they have never gone off the Derech)? >>Anyone who… Read more »

    chassidish
    Guest
    chassidish

    Please define a bum

    Chassidish vs Frum
    Guest
    Chassidish vs Frum

    Can someone be one and not the other? YES!!

    I know girls who do their chitas and Rambam and go to farbrengens but do not cover their knees and have no problem speaking to or hanging out with the other gender.

    I know lots of bochurim who are very frum, daven with minyan 3X a day and are machmir on every kashrus or shabbos issue, but don’t go to farbrengens or do chitas or even regular mikvah.

    So someone can be totally chassidish but not frum, or vise versa.

    to 182
    Guest
    to 182

    I hope you are being sarcastic. If not ,may god have mercy on your soul!

    not a system member
    Guest
    not a system member

    Dol you sound like a great girl who is just mixed up in 2 different worlds, how is that supposed to work? your bagging the system which is very understandable not because it isnt great just it works for some while for others it looks a far cry, i myself wasn`t able to follow ‘The System’ and went to work for a couple years and then later decided to take a year out to do smicha, i now work for a shliach….. am i bum maybe in the system`s eyes?! but get real you are a down to earth girl… Read more »

    Live your life!!!!
    Guest
    Live your life!!!!

    First of all, what do u care about people and their jugement? Do u trust in Hashem? If yes, you dont have to pay attention to what people are thinking and saying about you.Hashem is gonna send u your shidduch even if u are going to college!!!!! In life , you just have to be honnest with yourself and do the things that YOU think are right (and not bc other people think it is right) I am a 21 years old girl, not from CH, and I study, in a jewish college and also in a non jewish college… Read more »

    Do whats best for you!
    Guest
    Do whats best for you!

    Girl just do your thing!!! Listen the Rebbe allowed some people to go to college… Do whats best for you!!!!!

    Is Going to College a Crime?
    Guest
    Is Going to College a Crime?

    yes

    parshas shmoys cheylek alef.

    HOW THE MIGHTY HAVE FALLEN!
    Guest
    HOW THE MIGHTY HAVE FALLEN!

    Secretly…Lubavitchers used to be the envy of the Frum world.
    WHY?
    Because we HAVE Rebbe who GUIDES our every step with Emunah & Bitachon in Hashem…
    Judging by the article and the many comments perhaps it is more correct to say:
    H”vH… We HAD a Rebbe who USED to guide our every step. Nowadays we have to be ‘realistic’ and do what is ‘logical & sensible’ instead.
    HOW SAD !!!

    THE LOUBAVITCH GIRLS OPTION IN LIFE
    Guest
    THE LOUBAVITCH GIRLS OPTION IN LIFE

    well u can either not go to college, find a lame teaching or secretary job with a very low pay (since you dont have a proper degree you get paid the minimum) and be miserable but at least youll be good in evryones eyes.nobodys gona judge you.or you can get a degree online or go to touro or stern, get a proper degree in a job that you will actual enjoy for the rest of your life. you cant always please evryone and no matter what you do people will find something to judge you about. i mean even very… Read more »

    To address the college concern
    Guest
    To address the college concern

    First of all, there are frum colleges that one may go to… second of all, all the girls that I know that went to college and basically lost many or most of their torah values didnt have their priorities set or strong before they went. They were people who had weak connections to yiddeshkeit to begin with and so the atmosphere just “helped” the situation. If you are a frum girl (or guy) with a level head and know where you stand the chances of you being swayed are less. Also, dont be worried that a guy wont marry you… Read more »

    to 195
    Guest
    to 195

    the rebbe told very few people to go to college. the problem is when a person thinks thats what’s best for him/her is coming from the nefesh ha’bhamis, like what 94 said.

    to #181, #191 and everyone else talking about Chassidish Vs. Frum:
    Guest
    to #181, #191 and everyone else talking about Chassidish Vs. Frum:

    Just so you know, part of being Chassidish IS being frum! You cannot be a true Chossid if you don’t care about Davening with a Minyan, wear short skirts, touch your beard, talk Loshon Hara, “rent from wal mart”, speak to or hang out with “the opposite gender”, watch movies, have bad Midos towards other people, and all those other things that are downright Ossur Al Pee Torah. Someone who can do ANY of the above, no matter if he/she learns a million Sichos a week, and goes to Mikvah 5 times a a day, and Farbrengs 4 times a… Read more »

    relax!
    Guest
    relax!

    there is more people like u 🙂

    thanks!
    Guest
    thanks!

    198 great comment thanks you!

    worried!!
    Guest
    worried!!

    you will never be able to change the mold- you will be able tp change yourslef and how your worried how others will view you!!

    DR.
    Guest
    DR.

    The rebbe gave me a brocha to go to college. It was a yerida, but so was Yaakov avinue’s trip to Lavan. But he held strong. I was like anouther campus rabbi. I am now able reach yidden as an insider sometimes more than a shliach.

    Remember you only need to find one bashert. Hatzlocha!

    to sum it all up
    Guest
    to sum it all up

    basically, you want to go to college, listen to matisyahu, listen to goyishe music, watch movies etc. AND since you occasionally think about possibly learning a sicha, and because you daven every day, YOU WANT TO BE KNOWN AS CHASSIDISH.

    IT’S ALL STRANGE, because such an external image contradicting what is internal may actually hinder you finding your match.

    Looking for a Type 1 Bochur
    Guest
    Looking for a Type 1 Bochur

    B”H

    I’m a Type 1 girl looking for a Type 1 Bochur. I know you are VERY few and probably not reading this comment, but if you are or know a Type 1 Bochur (never too Chassidishe far mir
    Please send Type 1 Bochurim names to levvelzz@gmail.com.

    the author - to 206
    Guest
    the author - to 206

    I would like to clarify a couple of things: I would not like to listen to not jewish music – and you cannot compare mattisyahu to a goysh singer. second of all – i do not and do not wish to watch movies third of all – all i wish is to get a degree (and the job that best fits me is only offered in a non jewish colllege). I do not wish for a party life – why would i want to party with non jews???? All I want is to learn and get a degree… and not… Read more »

    Education
    Guest
    Education

    This piece mentioned what is at the crux of every issue, but people seem to have missed it.. “Now, what can a Lubavitch girl who has no experience do? That’s right! A teacher or an assistant.” If that is the level required of our teachers then how does any child have hope? Education is one the most basic foundations of society, teaching comes with huge responsibilty and by setting a standard where hiring candiates to teach our children who have no further education (i.e. a diploma in education) then you are letting the rot set in quite early. How can… Read more »

    Dear Author,
    Guest
    Dear Author,

    I don’t think you need to be concerned about what others think, and definitly not what they label you- everything comes straight from G-d and he knows you the best. be concerned about doing the right thing through and through. Yes the Rebbe spoke generally negative about going to college, and the Rebbe also said that each person should have their own mashpia- so you need to speak to your mashpia ( and make sure she understands you) But that does not mean that every breathing thing in crown heights is qualified to give advice, just because they know how… Read more »

    crime
    Guest
    crime

    online degrees are almost not recognized
    I do not know if Touro is well recognized
    Stern has more choices than Touro
    If you like teaching, get certification

    lubavitcher girl
    Guest
    lubavitcher girl

    dont worry YES there are middle boy annd i am one of them dont give up

    Well Put!
    Guest
    Well Put!

    #209 – such a well thought out and important point!

    To 139
    Guest
    To 139

    139, I too am in college, and I too feel like a light in the dark. I am a leader in the class, I’m the one who helps the others out, the Jew is the role model here. It only makes my yiddishkeit stronger. At first I would encorage freinds to do the same. But then I saw how not all of them were haveing a hashpaa on the others – It was the other way around. So now I don’t encorage anyone to take this path of darkness – the Rebbe knew better then me and you weather or… Read more »

    I'm a middle boy
    Guest
    I'm a middle boy

    I do not come from a chabad family; Yet I would consider myself to be part of the second category you mentioned and I am having trouble to find a shiddukh. So yes it exists!

    To 183
    Guest
    To 183

    Your right. All of these people are most likely against tv’s, yet they all have computers with which their children, and them can watch anything with.

    there is no middle to chassidish.
    Guest
    there is no middle to chassidish.

    either you are busy with the rebbe’s inyonim of hafatzah and growing as a chosid or not. the rebbe never wavered from his focus and vacations were not in the picture. Unfortunately, the focus and message has become blurred. You can not be chassidish if your focus in life is about personal growth and personal comfort. chasing the dollar and creature comforts can still make you frum but not a true chosid as is defined in the rebbe’s dictionary.

    In college
    Guest
    In college

    I am finishing college in 2 weeks. I agree that college is an overwhelming environmental for many, but the Rebbe taught me to be focused. I am BH proud of my bear, and i feel the Rebbe encouraging me to make the best out of the situation by being a good example to the “frum” kids who are struggling bit. You gotta keep moving. Thats what its about. Sitting in your basement because you “cant” go to college I think is worse. One day the rabbis who said don’t go to college are the same rabbis who are going to… Read more »

    I was one of those bums back in the the day....
    Guest
    I was one of those bums back in the the day....

    I went to TOURO for Education!! It was frowned upon!!

    I did however open a business that had nothing to do with my education which makes plenty of money!!!!!11

    wow~~~~~~~
    Guest
    wow~~~~~~~

    thats was soo good like seriously wth are u considered bumed out if u go to college u can t still be considered a good girl??

    A Bochur in 770
    Guest
    A Bochur in 770

    The author of this article has hurt my feelings. I’m nowhere to be found in her categories. She has totally ignored me, most of my friends, and most bochurim who learn in 770. (‘Learn’ here means actually learn.) The author calls a bochur who works and doesn’t wear white shirts a ‘regular chassidishe bochur’. So we’re all above that level. The problem is that her top pier says that we only think about learning all day, if we want to be viewed as ‘very chassidish’. So if my chavrusa isn’t here, and I turn to my friend and discuss a… Read more »

    Ironic
    Guest
    Ironic

    I find it very ironic that the girls are educated in seminary not to go to college yet the moisdos pay at higher rate to teachers that have certification. This can make the difference between a family struggling to make ends meet and being able to provide a proper parnasa to your family.

    I think there should also be a distinction made between someone going to college because they have nothing better to do and someone goal / career oriented that cannot do their chosen career without the proper training.

    Everyone blaming the schools etc
    Guest
    Everyone blaming the schools etc

    I go to a girls HS in CH. My teachers give me all they can. some are good some are not. Some classes are interesting. Some are not. I agree with some things they say. and some I don’t. But one thing is for sure : I SET MY OWN VALUES. BASED ON WHAT I STRIVE FOR IS WHO I WILL BE. I already made up my mind to go to college. whether or not i go to sem. I don’t have to follow any system, that way i won’t have to blame any system. No two people are the… Read more »

    to 223
    Guest
    to 223

    follow ;your heart and make your own decisions- just don’t be convonced that because ot’s your feeling, it becomes right. YOU MIGHT BE WRONG!

    to number 223 and 208 others
    Guest
    to number 223 and 208 others

    the values you set are based on the way you recieve from your sorroundings. “There is a discussion in the gemara about whether its worse to walk down a street full of idols or full of not-tznius things. The gemara immediatly asks it’s obviously worse to walk down a non-tznius street because it will arouse you whereas idols wont. Rather the gemara says that sorroundings have an influence on the person therefore being in a place full of idols can be very negative. The same thing nowadays the atmosphere of the street has affected the bochurim going to yeshiva to… Read more »

    college vs business
    Guest
    college vs business

    Did you ever think of going into business. That is where the real money is made. Show me a top philanthropist anywhere in the world and I’ll show you a businessman, but not a professional. Most successful business people have no degree in business and usually no degree at all. In business, the sky is the limit. With a profession, the day you don’t show up to work you don’t get your hourly rate, period. There are so many ways to do business today, that one has a broad array of choices. I could go on and on. The point… Read more »

    there are also frum colleges
    Guest
    there are also frum colleges
    I AGREE!!!!!!
    Guest
    I AGREE!!!!!!

    You are so right! honestly, hashem has everything planned out. don’t fret over anything. If you want to get a college degree it’s admirable that your following your own ambitions and care to make a well-established salary of your own, then getting married early and having to relay on someone else! Have trust in Hashem and follow your heart because if you don’t other people will influence your decisions and leave you unhappy.
    Well written article! Please write more!

    re:
    Guest
    re:

    re: “The Rebbe has many shluchim. The Rebbe has shluchim who sit and learn in 770 and think about pure things. The Rebbe has shluchim who are into business and who like to travel. The Rebbe has shluchim who don’t have full beards and who wear flip flops. All of ’em, they all, each and every one, belong to the Rebbe. Go full steam ahead, pursue what you want to pursue, and try very hard to find somebody ready who is willing to take that journey with you. Go after it.” “the rebbe has shluchim who x have full beards… Read more »

    choose your type!
    Guest
    choose your type!

    1: you are aware of the actual reality on planet earth

    2: you are posting comments on collive

    pick your pick and enjoy!

    author of comment 225
    Guest
    author of comment 225

    What I mean to say at the end is that if you will read the igros and sichos of the rebbe about college you will realize that college isn’t for FRUM people (or for that matter any Jewish people). It doesn’t matter whether you are chassidish or not.

    yes! its a crime!
    Guest
    yes! its a crime!
    Relax and do what you need to do be be the best you can be
    Guest
    Relax and do what you need to do be be the best you can be

    My Aunt OBM in Miami Beach was a strong supporter of Lubavitch, lived a “lubavitch” orthodox lifestyle and received many awards for the mitzvot she and my uncle performed throughout the community and further. She attended a Catholic College in Fl and when registration was on Shabbos, the nuns registered for her. She became an educator and taught in the Lubavitch Schools in FL. I cannot think of a better person and she did what you want to do, she went to the school where the program she needed was offered. You can attend a university and remain frum, just… Read more »

    get a life!
    Guest
    get a life!

    everybody do what they want to do stop being a yenta
    dont be the trend do what is good for you!! yo guys sounding nuts thinking u control the world

    in short
    Guest
    in short

    i don’t have time to read all the 234 comments so i might be saying what someone has already written. in short what u gain in one area u will lose in another. don’t fool yourself into thinking that u will stay just as frum and chasidish in college. we daven every day that Hashem should keep us away from temptation and u r thinking of putting youreself IN the temptation, not wise. judging by the amount of comments this is obviously a very controversial debate. i think many people struggle with this. but in a case where we don’t… Read more »

    College =bum??? Ha!
    Guest
    College =bum??? Ha!

    I can’t believe that there are those who call guys or girls that are actually doing something with their lives and going to college: “bums”.

    #17
    Guest
    #17

    #17, SPOT ON.

    gr8 letter
    Guest
    gr8 letter

    1) The Rebbe said that when you can’t decide s/t go to an unbiased, objective person. Go to him/her with the kavana of doing the Rebbe’s will of having a Mashpia- this will give him the Rebbe’s koach to address your issue correctly. 2) In my opinion, the idea of going to a non-Jewish college environment…(especially before marriage)…..it’s simply asking for trouble. 3) S/t very interesting I heard that R’ Manis Friedman said lately. “We are born married.” There’s s/o out there for each of us. At the exact right time we will find him/her. Btw Simon Jacobson gives really… Read more »

    I really dont get the tumult
    Guest
    I really dont get the tumult

    The Rebbe said dont go to college for 2 main reasons. Immorality/ temptation etc.. and learning goyishe topics/ideas Nowadays there are so many frum college options where these 2 points are moot. Classes are separate for men and women, and learning is geared to the frum person. Its almost like sitting in seminary or highschool except you are getting credits for doing so. Thats all. I really dont see the difference. So go to college get your degree and go to work. As for going to a non Jewish college where these 2 issues are most certainly prevalent, well there… Read more »

    OK i see the problom
    Guest
    OK i see the problom

    in Chabad today we have allot of problems but one main one is that we have no leader so its true that the Rebbe was against college but he was also against allot of things that are now OK in Chabad so every case is different”the Rebbe told some Bocharim to go to college” so we have to all make are selves a RAV or a Mashbea & try to do our best!

    WRITE TO THE IGRIS
    Guest
    WRITE TO THE IGRIS

    I THINK ITS A GR8 IDEA!

    To the author:
    Guest
    To the author:

    Go to college and please don’t worry about anything! Plenty of regular Crown Heights guys (including me and all of my friends, category 3 sans the flip flops and TV for the future kids) would look up to you for having the maturity of going to college, not the other way around.

    The Real problem
    Guest
    The Real problem

    I feel as though the real problem is that there are not ENOUGH frum people in college. A chasidish person conducts his or herself in such a way that sets a beautiful example on how to live an appreciative and spiritual life. This being said, I think it’s a great idea for more frum people to go to college because they can set that example for the rest of the world to see. We need more frum leaders!!!!! It’s unfortunate, but realistically many of the leaders in this world go to college. And of course I’m not being ignorant of… Read more »

    A FAKER
    Guest
    A FAKER

    YOU CAN BE IN COLLEGE AND REMAIN STRONG AND FRUM. YOU CAN REMAIN IN YESHIVA AND BE FREI. THE PERSON HAS FREE CHOICE IN THIS WORLD TO BE SHOMER TORAH AND MITZVOTH. IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE THE INNER STRENTH OR NOT.YOU MAKE YOUR SURROUNDINGS. YOUR SURROUNDINGS DO NOT MAKE YOU.

    How'd your PARENTS let you slip through the cracks?
    Guest
    How'd your PARENTS let you slip through the cracks?

    I’m a baal teshuva, and the language and ideas (me, me, me) in this post and in the comments by those who agree with the post (using language like “sista girl”, etc) is exactly what I grew up with and am mamash trying to get away from. Why would you water down such a beautiful tradition and potential. Believe me, all the mind junk you see out in the “cool world” is not greener or better than what you have.

    Please, you need to be WORKing on getting married #1
    Guest
    Please, you need to be WORKing on getting married #1

    I’m 35, not frum, and, as a result, I did the typical 4 years of undergrad and 2 years in graduate school. I have a bachelor and masters degree. Big deal. For what? I was single – and suffering every single year of my life, jumping through all of secular society’s “I’m supposed to be great” hoops, so-to-speak. I just got married at 34, thank G-d. In fact, I wasn’t even thinking about marriage, just about myself and money (a miserable existence) until I acquired a MASHPIA in the form of a Chabad shaliach, and he asked (or should I… Read more »

    Today's youth:  thinking of jobs like how think about dating
    Guest
    Today's youth: thinking of jobs like how think about dating

    “…Ech, this job is this and this job is that.” “I can’t do that job because I don’t like this and I don’t like that…” “Only an idiot would do that kind of job…” So fickle and missing the point, entirely. Young adults are treating everything and everybody like the objects they buy in the store (…”Oh, the Rebbe said this, but that’s not convenient for me, so I’m ‘returning’ it.”). First, there’s the illusion that they have full control of what they’re choosing, because there’s a million choices. And then when they pick something out to buy, they’re really… Read more »

    La-la-la:  YOUR personal dreams are #1 - Also to 218, 223, and 228, and the like.
    Guest
    La-la-la: YOUR personal dreams are #1 - Also to 218, 223, and 228, and the like.

    Hi, so, you’re going to go to college full-time (daily, go to classes, do homework, work on projects, and study for quizes and exams); prepare and keep Shabbos, Yom Tovim, and chagim; daven and study/keep-up with your Yiddishkite; take care of your basic needs, like cook, clean, and sleep. AND you’re going to focus on and have clear thoughts for finding your basheret? And you don’t have a mashpia. Then, when you graduate, you’re going to keep on going (that is, “keep moving”), and show everyone how ambitious and successful you are – all by yourself, you’re such as star!… Read more »

    To 239, 111, 153, and all you frumsters
    Guest
    To 239, 111, 153, and all you frumsters

    To 239, not true.

    I spent four years in FRUM Touro and can tell you that their curriculum is littered with apikorsus

    And by the way, Dr B Lander once asked the Rebbe for his haskomeh for a frum college (under the cover of “machon leparnasa”), to which the rebbe refused

    So don’t say that frum colleges are different

    246
    Guest
    246

    Perhaps the best comment of this entire page.

    Don't let anybody tell you what to do
    Guest
    Don't let anybody tell you what to do

    Do what you think is right unless somebody else takes responsibility for your livelihood.
    If somebody says that if you listen to them you will be successful and if not they will support you don’t listen to all the people who never succeeded in their lives and don’t want you to succeed either because it will make them look bad.
    Do what you think makes sense that you will be able to support yourself and your family.

    college degrees
    Guest
    college degrees

    As someone who spent too much time at college, it seems the kefira is in the HUMANITIES, NOT in “hard” sciences. Humanities deal more w/ideas of the history of mankind, delving into the Hellenistic point of view. But why don’t you just go to an online school? Lifehacker.com has very good resources on different schools & how to save money on tuition & such. There are frum women in Eretz Ysroel who’ve attended law school & gotten degrees. Many of their lectures are online so they can iron & cook while listening to their professor. I also attended Bar Ilan… Read more »

    246
    Guest
    246

    246!! About time some one said it

    Choose your register!
    Guest
    Choose your register!

    Very well argumented; however your classification and generalization system should still be put aside. You have the right to present the issue the way you did and even more to conclude the allusions that you prompted. The reader will agree with the logistic and thought presented about the social and economical aspect. For the religious, cultural, and educational registers more should be said; Baaley Teshuvah vs. FFB. Russian vs. French, Israeli vs. American; educated vs. hairheads etc… As for a Chatan, please take your time before and speak clearly about the issues and think critically. Wish you the best and… Read more »

    shmuly
    Guest
    shmuly

    I am a bahur who finished his smiha and I would like go in a school of business / finance but frum like to know if there is a good school for that in NY but I dont have GED or hight school
    thank you

    To the Author
    Guest
    To the Author

    i applaud you for understanding that you are not meant to be part of the education field. I am still in high school and i’ve had numerous teacher, fresh out of seminary, who weren’t meant to be teachers. Guess who suffered? we the students! we had to go home and teach ourselves. being a teacher is a very important job ( how ever little it is recognized), and not everyone is cut out for it, contrary to public belief. so here’s a 14 yr olds advice to you: pursue a job you are good at and enjoy! good luck:)

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