ב"ה
Saturday, 20 Tishri, 5780
  |  October 19, 2019

I Have an Eruv, But Don’t Use It

A Lubavitcher from Los Angeles lists 4 prevalent arguments for building an Eruv in Crown Heights and how to address each one. Full Story

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Could not have been better said.
Guest
Could not have been better said.
Carrying kids
Guest
Carrying kids

I noticed 4 separate instances this shabbos where a small child was being walked/pulled and at some point refusing to carry on. So what happens the parents pick them up and walk a bit then try again. Put a aruv up and you will not have this problem

REALLY WELL WRITTEN.
Guest
REALLY WELL WRITTEN.

Finally the first decent article in this topic.

Wow! Love it!
Guest
Wow! Love it!

Rabbi Schochet,
That was the absolute clearest response to all this cloudy back and forth. Thanks for that! Like father like son.

Eruv
Guest
Eruv

What’s next the great eruv crisis sequel to the tuition crisis

Good points
Guest
Good points

Most logical and thought out article on this topic thus far.

Well said
Guest
Well said

Thank you for addressing these issues head on! you are %100 right!

Agree, except for...
Guest
Agree, except for...

I agree with everything you have written, except for the point you made about “Bori V’Shemo”.

If there was indeed a solid “Bori”, then this discussion would have ended a long time ago. I would categorize this as “unclear” or “debateable”. There are learned and respectable men on both sides of this argument.

There were many respectable men, who after Gimmel Tammuz said that they were “Bori” that the Rebbe wants Chabad to publicize that he is Moshiach…

I believe, as you have stated, that Rabbonim should be the ones to decide at this point.

Yes!!!
Guest
Yes!!!

Three cheers for Rabbi Schochet!

Yitzchok
Guest
Yitzchok

Well said!
I hope that this will put an end to the Eiruv saga.

To #2
Guest
To #2

That’s happened to me and my wife too. But rather than carrying them a little bit, you find other alternatives: wait it out a bit until the child feels like walking again; hold his or her hands and help them walk; etc.

And that my friends, concludes the discussion
Guest
And that my friends, concludes the discussion

Yes yes and yes. Thank you for your wise words. The eruv issue is just one of the results of a greater problem er face: the ‘times have changed’ excuse.
Frum people have been praised and admired by the secular and non-Jewish for their commitment and loyalty to ancient values and customs. Halacha is the jewel on our crown. Let us not forget this.

Thank you rabbi shochet...
Guest
Thank you rabbi shochet...

Well said!

WEll written & to the point.
Guest
WEll written & to the point.

Thats right not even one of the Rabbonim approved of the eiruv!

Kudos
Guest
Kudos

Articulate, dispassionate, dignified, reasoned and clear.

Thank you for this.

Beautifully written!!!
Guest
Beautifully written!!!

You couldn’t have expressed better what all of the Rebbe’s chassidim are feeling. We need to speak the truth!!

Flourishing Community
Guest
Flourishing Community

The notion that Crown Heights is predominantly Lubavitch is no longer valid, or at least won’t be valid within a few years. There is a growing and flourishing m/o Nusach Ari community within Crown Heights whose voices are not being heard, and who desperately want and need an Eruv. The Nusach Ari community in Crown Heights is made up of beautiful families and individuals with strong Jewish traditions who don’t necessarily subscribe to the standards of the Lubavitch community who live beside them. Furthermore, they do not turn to the Lubavitch bais din with there personal halachik questions and therefore… Read more »

50  yr  in  the hood
Guest
50 yr in the hood

bh very well writen ! u have my vote
for the next generation rov
thank you
http://www.noeriruvincrownheights.com

To #2: "Carrying kids"
Guest
To #2: "Carrying kids"

Excellent point. Please ask a rov what to do in such a case. The parents in those four instances may have been acting within Halacha. There are more nuances in these areas than many assume.

17 simple response
Guest
17 simple response

they need their own rav and beis din to follow. The people in BP who wanted an eruv have their own rabbonim who ok’ed it. They didn’t shop around until they got the answer they desired.

No more crisis!! Moshiach now!!
Guest
No more crisis!! Moshiach now!!

Eruv crisis
Shidduch crisis
Tuition crisis
770 crisis
Beis din crisis
Yechi Anti crisis
Tznius crisis
Teens crisis

Moshiach now!

to #2 and 19
Guest
to #2 and 19

who says that you have to the out on Shabbos a child that can barely walk? You can keep him home with his tattie or momie. What is next? give a heter so you can drive to shul?

Dovber Schwartz
Guest
Dovber Schwartz

I wrote my article to start a conversation. There’s been a lot written, most of it just opinions with no sourcing so let’s focus on what we actually know. After much ado, here is what we know (versus what you may think or feel). HALACHICALLY Rabbi Osdoba seems to hold that it is halachically possible to erect an eruv here in Crown Heights. The other two members of the communities beis din seem to hold that there are serious complications but that it is possible (unclear from their letter) yet nothing can be done without their involvement. We have a… Read more »

To #17. Re-read #3
Guest
To #17. Re-read #3

There are Chabad-lite in Crown Hts. When they form a unified community with their own beis din etc. truly separate, then they can have an eruv …with separate schools etc.

to 17
Guest
to 17

you indicate that these modernists don’t turn to the CH beis din. If so, why thee need an eruv? let them carry on Shabbos and do everything else as they see fit

and by the way, you call them a Nusach Ari community. Would the ARI Z’L subscribe to their views?!!

To flourishing community...
Guest
To flourishing community...

….’ strong in Jewish traditions…’ ??
Since they r living in a community that follows the local beis din, it would be extremely disrespectful if they actually do shop for an outside rav that will create something this community and it’s rabbanim oppose.
So yes, unfortunately they don’t live up to the standards but for them to lower it with no regard to the residing community here would be highly selfish and disrespectful

I'm confused...
Guest
I'm confused...

Who would be considered the “Eruv Rav” in this context? Lol

@ #2
Guest
@ #2

Guess what? Today I saw at least ten times 4 groups of women and girls walking around with their skirts not looking enough to cover their knees. I don’t think you would suggest that when our Rebbe said that skirts must be long enough (he said a minimum of 10cm below the knee, and even longer if frum women in that particular community established a longer length) that he would have changed his mind now because the girls would think theyvlook like nerdy nebachs if they don’t expose part of their knees. Your argument is just as ludicrous. If a… Read more »

To number 17
Guest
To number 17

Crown heights is a Chabad neighborhood and has to be lead by chabad rabonim!
The rebbe fought to keep the neighborhood Jewish. It’s his shchunah!
הגם לכבוש את המלכה עמי בבית???!!!
Try to go to Boro park or Williamsburg with your minhogim and see what they will say…
The main problem is the “modern” style.
Exactly the same problem as the tsnius in our neighborhood.
The times haven’t changed! The people changed!
אמריקה איז ניט אנדערשט

Thank you
Guest
Thank you

Very well said!

men
Guest
men

men will never be able to relate to being stuck at home with the kids on shabbos. it’s just not part of their reality.

REBBES written opinion on ERUVIN
Guest
REBBES written opinion on ERUVIN

after doing research in the rebbes’ letters on the topic of “tikun eruvin”,the following points are clear: 1) that the alter rebbes’ PSAK in his SHULCHAN ARUCH is that u need 600,000 people to make the street for a rshus horabim.there is no mention any where in his letters that its enough to have 600,000 people in the entire city to make it for a reshus horabim.but, as rabbi berl Levin quotes from the alter rebbes’ shulchan aruch is clear that the condition of 600,000 deals with the specific street (movooy). 2)tikun eruvin is a mitzvah and is a positive… Read more »

Call a spade a spade
Guest
Call a spade a spade

@17, We will let the modern orthodox community in Ch do as they please, no demands of the mo community anywhere in the world to keep Lubavitch customs. However, as long as they continue to call themselves Lubavitch, we expect them to behave as such. Please, if you’re no longer lubavitch, come out and say so. As Eliyahu said to the Yidin, “Ad mosai atem poschim al shtei haseifim” ?! Once you remove your beards don’t think you are still chabad.

Important Infromation
Guest
Important Infromation

Let’s start by dissecting most of the claims set forth in this post. …This is beside the myriad of personal witness testimony, by RabbisChitrik, Groner etc. No one can intellectually and honestly say that the Rebbe did not express his opinion in writing and orally, against the notion of a large city eruv, let alone Crown Heights. To doubt Rabbi Groner calls into question every answer anyone might have received from him in the name of the Rebbe. While some may be okay with this, I for one cannot reconcile the two in my head. Nor am I willing to… Read more »

Question
Guest
Question

Does the Alter Rebbe hold that a reshus harabbim is a street which is 16 amos wide (about 24 feet) or that 600,000 people have to pass through it? What if an overpass were built over Eastern Parkway, would that allow an eruv to be made?

Exactly!
Guest
Exactly!

Crown Heights is Lubavitch. Anyone else here is accepted with love and tolerance… but they don’t get to decide Halachic matters for the Community. It would be like opening up a kosher cholov akum place on Lee Avenue, and blithely tell the traditional Williamsburg chassidim, “Just don’t eat there!”

Carrying kids
Guest
Carrying kids

#2 and #11. You can carry your kid if they can walk themselves. This is not a violation of Shabbos. Ask a rov.

TO #35
Guest
TO #35

THE ALTER R.BRINGS BOTH OPINIONS AND NUMEROUS TIMES PASKENS(RULES)THAT THE MINHAG IS THAT U NEED 600,000 TO PASS THRU IT.THE REBBE IN HIS IGORES WRITES AT LEAST 2 TIMES THAT ITS’ A PSAK OT THE ALTER REBBE.

CARRYING KIDS #37
Guest
CARRYING KIDS #37

IT’S A VIOLATION MIDERABONON,

To flourishing community...
Guest
To flourishing community...

….’ strong in Jewish traditions…’ ??
Since they r living in a community that follows the local beis din, it would be extremely disrespectful if they actually do shop for an outside rav that will create something this community and it’s rabbanim oppose.
So yes, unfortunately they don’t live up to the standards but for them to lower it with no regard to the residing community here would be highly selfish and disrespectful

CH will be like any other Chabad community
Guest
CH will be like any other Chabad community

Eruv will be up very soon. We are sick and tired of being dictated to by a bunch of fanatics. Against or pro do as you please just don’t force your חומרות on other people. This is NYC and not New Square. And no Chabad isn’t Williamsburg. We tolerate everyone that’s what the rebbe taught us. If you don’t hold of the Eruv then don’t use it. It seems that those who are against feel threatened some way by the Eruv. Well let me guess, perhaps they are scared of their wives? How else will they explain to them why… Read more »

#37
Guest
#37

why should they ask a rov??? They will find out that you invented a halacha

Transcript of Rav Belsky's opinion on Brooklyn eruv
Guest
Transcript of Rav Belsky's opinion on Brooklyn eruv

https://archive.org/stream/BelskyBadmouthingRabbonim/BelskyBadmouthingRabbonim_djvu.txt Ignore the link mention about ‘badmouthing rabbonim’; its an interesting and worthwhile read. This is a transcript of a speech R’ Belsky gave in 2000 about the Manhattan Eruv, the position of many esteemed Rabbonim about Brooklyn, and an insight into pre-war eruvin in Europe. The best statement is from the R’ Hershel Schachter in his essay conclusion on the subject of eruvin: The Arueh LaNer in his preface to Niddah quotes the Zohar’s interpretation of a verse in Zechariah. 67 There the Mashiach is described as an Ani verochev al chamor – a humble man riding upon a… Read more »

To 17
Guest
To 17

As long as the ‘nusach ari’ community uses our schools and organizations they need to follow our rules. Let them set up a beis din a shul and schools and then OT and BR can start removing anyone who uses the eruv and we’ll all be happy

Melbournian
Guest
Melbournian

I’m from Melbourne, which, as mentioned in the article has an eruv, though it’s not under Lubavitchers, many Lubavitchers carry with it. I personally don’t, and I’ll list some problems. Many younger people don’t know what an eruv is. Even if they know of the word, they think it’s some concept of weather you carry or not. Try and explain to them when they’re in a place without an eruv that they can’t carry, and they’ll think you’re being machmir. They don’t know the boundaries. Many know that the eruv extends down to dandenong Rd, and not too many frum… Read more »

to Berry schwartz
Guest
to Berry schwartz

1) you are distorting what rabbi’s osdaba shwei & braun wrote. no where in their letter did they say that an eiruv can technically be built in CH. All they said is that so far, there is nothing to talk about, because private people should not be dealing with this, rather the Rabonim should be. 2) you write: “Assuming he is remembering accurately and with no agenda (both of which have been challenged), this might change the equation for me” i have personally heard from 2 grandchildren of R’ Hirchel Chitrik A”h, that their grandfather told the Rebbe that he… Read more »

Yankel Todres
Guest
Yankel Todres

To those who ask “what the Rebbe would say now”. It’s easy to figure out.

Just ask the reform rabbis who were able to determine that the Torah itself is not applicable to our times. That’s why they say that we don’t have to keep any of the Takonos Chachamim any more. They are all old and outdated and not applicable to our modern times. Therefore, why should the Rebbe’s opinion be more enduring then the Torah itself?

reform vs frum
Guest
reform vs frum

Making an eruv with the approval of the local beis din is frum. If they say yes, then you may do it their way. But if they say no, then that’s that.
Making an eruv by going outside the local beis din (i.e shopping around for kulas) is reform!

34 outside experts
Guest
34 outside experts

there is a big difference between a local beis din making use of an outside expert, if they feel they need one, versus a bunch of lay people deciding they would avoid the beis din altogether in order to guarantee a yes outcome.

a question
Guest
a question

In the comments to the other posts since this topic started, people keep saying not everybody in CH is Lubavitch. Until now the non-Lubavitch were not identified, but now someone posted there is a Nusach Ari community in CH who are the ones who want the eruv. I hope someone from the Nusach Ari people that is reading this can explain how / why this group decided to move to CH — it certainly can’t be for either affordable housing or a low crime rate… We don’t hear of groups other than Satmar springing up in Kiryas Yoel, or groups… Read more »

I AM IN THE YES CAMPAIGN
Guest
I AM IN THE YES CAMPAIGN

I would like to reiterate the points made above: Let’s start by dissecting most of the claims set forth in this post. …This is beside the myriad of personal witness testimony, by RabbisChitrik, Groner etc. No one can intellectually and honestly say that the Rebbe did not express his opinion in writing and orally, against the notion of a large city eruv, let alone Crown Heights. To doubt Rabbi Groner calls into question every answer anyone might have received from him in the name of the Rebbe. While some may be okay with this, I for one cannot reconcile the… Read more »

Melbournian
Guest
Melbournian

I’m a Lubavitcher from Melbourne and I disagree with what Rabbi Shochat wrote that ‘most’ Lubavitchers use the Eruv.
Perhaps 50% of the young married but not most Lubavitchers.

#2  It is permitted
Guest
#2 It is permitted

The people you saw did nothing wrong. When a small child is in distress and absolutely refuses to move, it is permitted to carry him, since it’s shvus dishvus bimkom tzaar. Carry the child for a short while and then put him down and try again to persuade him to walk.

#37, only if he is in distress
Guest
#37, only if he is in distress

You are correct that you can carry the child, but only if he is throwing a tantrum and refuses to walk. Lechatchila you may not just pick him up and carry him because it’s more convenient for you. Shvus dishvus is still forbidden in most circumstances.

#42
Guest
#42

It’s not made up. Just because you don’t know about it doesn’t make it not true. A child who is able to walk but at some point gets tired or refuses to walk you are allowed to carry them.

Help
Guest
Help

The same way the local rabbis rely on outside rabbonim to do gitten they will rely on outside rabbonim for eruv as they have no clue what to do The local rabbis decided to make everyone use a silly filter for the water and Bh rabbi heller was against it and procedures wrong Bottom line theses rabbonim each wrote letters every year that the other side is no good and cannot trust the hescher and other other one writes that the other ones cannot be trusted Time to finish the eruv and be done with this and let people choose… Read more »

There is a boss
Guest
There is a boss

I would like to point out, Rabbi Berel Levin is a expert – mumche in the Alter Rebbe shulchan aruch, indeed he let the team that published the new updated version of the set as well as published many seforim on the alter rebbe shulchan aruch.

So while he is not a rov to pasken on the a airuv he definitely can’t be dismissed as an expert option on the alter Rebbe’s Sita on eiruvin especially by layman.

#45, Melbourne
Guest
#45, Melbourne

1. Boruch Hashem the Melbourne Eruv has never been down, even for one shabbos. That is no guarantee that it won’t happen, which is why it’s checked carefully every week, and everyone is told not to rely on it unless they have received the message that it is up that week, but the fact is that in all the years it’s been up there has never been a shabbos when it was down. 2. Once you have been notified that the eruv is up you have the right to carry until you are notified that it’s down. You don’t have… Read more »

The Beis Din is absolutely right!
Guest
The Beis Din is absolutely right!

Contrary to what B S writes, Rabbis Schwei, Braun and Osdoba all essentially said the same point: you cannot have an eruv without discussing it with the Rabbonim.
Whether iit technically can or cannot happen is moot. The Rabbonim MUST be involved in building an Eruv of THEIR community.

Solutions
Guest
Solutions

As a member of Anash I see we have a few problems here in Crown Heights that can all be corrected with a good constructive plan. Housing, over crowded schools and the newest one Erev. It has been suggested a few times but I really think it should be taken on by merkaz or some other organizations maybe vad hakol to start a new community similar to satmer or squire chasidim. We will gain affordable large housing, new branches of yeshivas, and as it being a smaller confined space there should not be an Erev problem.

OUTSIDE RABBONIM
Guest
OUTSIDE RABBONIM

In all cases where an Eiruv was first approved by loval Rabbonim, an outside Rov that is an expert in the technical details of actually making the Eiruv was utilized ( such as R’ Yechiel Steinmetz the Dayan of Vishnitz-Monsey.). They were hired for thier expertise in the actual construction of the Eiruv.

Dear Berry Schwartz
Guest
Dear Berry Schwartz

Firstly, I must comment on something totally irrelevant to the topic. You write “a learned lubavitch librarian (not a rov) who claims..”, obviously the reference is to הרה”ג רשדב”ל, and this is disrespectful and wrong. He is a rov who issues rulings all the time. (Neddles to say there are rabbis in the community, like Rabbi Osdoba writes in his letter). Secondly, I agree with you that the implication of the Rabbonim’s p’sak is that the possibility of having an eruv in crown heights does exist, something the writer of this post failed to notice. But your whole approach “to… Read more »

Great article. Kol hakavod
Guest
Great article. Kol hakavod

Very good article Rabbi schochet! Spot on! And those that pathetically think that we are pushing our chumros on them. THIS IS OUR REBBES SCHUNAH, THIS IS LUBAVITCH. IF YOU CALL YOURSELF LUBAVITCH YOU FOLLOW WHAT THE REBBE WANTED. If not MIT VOS BISTU LUBAVITCH with your shaved beards, tv’s and short jackets on shabbos??? If you dont like it, move to Florida, move to monsey, move to California, move to the five towns. Just dont bring your garbage into Crown Heights. The Rebbe was against an eiruv, dont think Reb Herschel Chitrik would lie about it, and neither would… Read more »

NON-CONFORMISTS
Guest
NON-CONFORMISTS

I would like these “new era” residents of Crown Heights ( Nusach Ari ?-give me a break ! ) explain the difference between thier agenda ( laxity of halacha in so many areas-tznius foremost,kashrus,Shabbos,etc. ) and the definitive relaxation of many halachos that were the backbone of the Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist movements. Should they so desire to lead a modernist lifestyle what is keeping them in Crown Heights ? One of the priciest real-estate areas in the country, still experiencing racial strife and high crime, schools that require a religious lifestyle they are uncomfortable with, etc.,etc.. Why deal with all… Read more »

I don't get it #41
Guest
I don't get it #41

Why if someone disagrees with you and thinks that the Rebbes opinion still stands is he a fanatic or closed minded?
If someone dosnt want to exchange halachos for convenience is he backwards?
Please your constant rubbish is annoying and emotional with no basis in fact or truth if you want to do things in spite of the Rebbe etc go ahead it’s your life but don’t dare be self righteous and call others who disagree with you on principle “fanatics”

To mr Schwartz
Guest
To mr Schwartz

I read your article with the reasons you gave as to why in your opinion the Rebbes opinion would change based on the facts now I disagree with both reasons you gave I don’t think are very convincing at all ( as many commenters on the article have pointed out) And this is the real issue you could be right and I wrong it’s possible But don’t you see the danger in deciding where the rebbe a words apply and where they don’t ? How do you know you understood the rebbes opinion a and reasons correctly ( for example… Read more »

parent
Guest
parent

as a parent who has children in OT and BR, I would propose that the schools remove the children of parents using a non-beis Din eruv

Thank you #41 and #56
Guest
Thank you #41 and #56

Thanks for revealing the true colors behind the heilige eruv campaign.

To #43
Guest
To #43

Rabbi Belsky is incorrect on many historical facts, so please don’t mention him here.

To #45
Guest
To #45

All your arguments are without merit. They had the same issues if not more so in the heim and no made your arguments opposing an erruv. Please stop making up new issurim. Additionally, everyone of your issues can be taken care of.

To #46
Guest
To #46

“1) you are distorting what rabbi’s osdaba shwei & braun wrote. no where in their letter did they say that an eiruv can technically be built in CH. All they said is that so far, there is nothing to talk about, because private people should not be dealing with this, rather the Rabonim should be.” You are distorting Rav Osdoba words. He would technically allow an eruv in CH. “2) you write: “Assuming he is remembering accurately and with no agenda (both of which have been challenged), this might change the equation for me” i have personally heard from 2… Read more »

#45, Melbourne
Guest
#45, Melbourne

1. Boruch Hashem the Melbourne Eruv has never been down, even for one shabbos. That is no guarantee that it won’t happen, which is why it’s checked carefully every week, and everyone is told not to rely on it unless they have received the message that it is up that week, but the fact is that in all the years it’s been up there has never been a shabbos when it was down. 2. Once you have been notified that the eruv is up you have the right to carry until you are notified that it’s down. You don’t have… Read more »

#64
Guest
#64

The difference is very clear, and the fact that you don’t recognise it yourself shows that the problem is with you. The difference is that the new movements rejected the binding nature of halocho. They did not follow a legitimate shita in psak that produced a particular outcome; they decided either (in the case of Reform) that halocho doesn’t matter in the first place, or (in the case of Conservative) that they have the authority to pasken however they like. Orthodoxy means above all accepting that halocho is binding, and one must follow it whether one likes it or not,… Read more »

The need to defer to local rabbonim
Guest
The need to defer to local rabbonim

It’s true that in a community the local rabbonim must be in control, and one can’t come into someone else’s community and put up an eruv there without the rabbonim’s approval. But if one constructs a large eruv that *includes* a small community within it, since when do that community’s rabbonim have the right to veto the whole project? If someone wants to make a greater Brooklyn eruv, that will include the whole area from Brooklyn Heights to Bed-Stuy and down to Flatbush, the Crown Heights rabbonim will not need to be consulted, and their opinion will be irrelevant.

Ignoring History
Guest
Ignoring History

As long as there is no written proof, the arguments will cont.
Does anyone have anything in writing?
Until then…
Let this be.
Things should stay the way they are.
Enough already!
Rants don’t accomplish a thing.
You are playing with fire.

ah,
Guest
ah,

the Shochets just always express themeselves SO CRYSTAL CLEAR so Knowledgeable
,kudos!! Shkoyach

to 62 and mr schwartz
Guest
to 62 and mr schwartz

R Berel Levin is a talmid chochom that if you as a private person will ask him a shayle and decide to follow his direction you could but he’s not a poisek and not an authority to pasken regarding communal matters etc. and if you ask him himself he will clearly tell you so. He wrote the kuntres as a yinyan in limud halocho etc. and gave his view on the matter. Regarding your comment on the Rabbonims letter I don’t see any implication on the possibility of having an eiruv here. They clearly say that they not getting into… Read more »

very sad
Guest
very sad

This is so sad. Crown Heights is losing it’s etzem, it’s soul, and if you think this is all starting now, you’ve been asleep for the last 15 years. This argument has been a long time in the making. Once a upon a time a male chabad person over the age of 13 would not be caught dead walking up or down Kingston without a hat and jacket. Today we have married Chabad men, wearing Kapatos in shul, with no gartel, or a gartel and no Kapata … Can you imagine this in 770 in the 80’s?? As a man… Read more »

Crown heights
Guest
Crown heights

Crown Heights demographic is changing dramatically
They used to be only Lubavitchers and black community
Now there are yuppies, many of them Jewish , and also some non Lubavitchers frum peopple
This new community wants to have an Eruv
Crown Heights is not owned by Lubavitch , if you thought that, wake up
I think that it should not be a question for Lubavitchers , the Eruv is not for them
It’s going to be a non Lub Eruv
People are keep soon the same thing

CAMPS.....
Guest
CAMPS.....

Every lubavitcher camp (Emunah, Parksville, Detriot ect) has an eruv. Did they go against a direct request from the Rebbe that no one should have or use an eruv? I highly doubt that. All bungalow colonies have them as well & I have never heard this much bickering about it. This eruv situation is causing a disgusting display of sinas chinam! If you don’t want an eruv DON’T USE IT! But to mistreat and publicly make negative comments about others in your neighborhood is as big or a bigger problem then people who choose to use an eruv (that most… Read more »

Shwartz and Schochet
Guest
Shwartz and Schochet

Dovber Shwartz and Israel Schochet’s articles are the ONLY ones that were logically compelling. Thanks to both of you.

78.5
Guest
78.5

Here is what we can debate in 15 years. There will be op-eds and debates online where people are arguing if you NEED to have a beard or not. Did they Rebbe ever REALLY say outright? Did Leibel really hear clear thats what the Rebbe meant, there are other Rabbanim outside of Crown Heights that clearly say it’s ok not to have a beard. There are some things that are just Chabad Torah. 1) Beard 2) Tznius 3) Cholov Yisroel 4) Chassidus 5) Total ibbergageben to The Rebbe 6) We don’t use the Eruv (7 used to be all you… Read more »

Maybe its a good thing this is finally coming to a head
Guest
Maybe its a good thing this is finally coming to a head

Reading all this discussion, and the comments, it seems like this is finally coming to a resolution of sorts for our neighborhood. For years, there has been an undercurrent and rumblings from many of the families here that this modern element does not belong in our neighborhood and especially in our schools. Our children should not have to be exposed and influenced by people, who clearly as is mentioned here, consider themselves Modern Orthodox rather than Lubavitch. For all of us who sacrifice to live here, dealing with everything living in Crown Heights comes with, so that our children can… Read more »

worst danger is yetzer hara as a title
Guest
worst danger is yetzer hara as a title

I think the back and forth on this issue can be resolved by looking at what the Rebbe teaches about the four sons at the Seder: the rosho should be there, not only that, but he should sit next to the chochom, so the chochom can influence him positively, but ONLY if he is batul/ open to learning from the chochom. If he isn’t, then he shouldn’t sit there, because he won’t be helped and may even influence the chochom in the wrong way… (Likutei sichos, chelek alef, pesach) Theres a debate: the Rebbe wants us to love and accept… Read more »

to 80
Guest
to 80

You do understand that in Halacha the area where a camp is and Crown Heights have very different halachic ramifications, right?

I think that speaks to the overall problem.

This isn’t a matter of “if you don’t want it, don’t use it.” It’s a matter that for decades we understood that the Rebbe 1) didn’t want it here and 2) according to Chabad it was not Halachicly possible.

Nothing has changed in that area in 2016. Although it’s clear we have changed dramatically.

other  halachic and hashkafik repercussions
Guest
other halachic and hashkafik repercussions

When they do put up an eruv, there will be an even stronger divide between the “carrying” and “non-carrying” crowd, one that will probably take a few generations to smooth over. In the mean time, is it relevant to say that if your families custom is not to use the eruv, you should not be eating at the house of a family where they do use the eruv? Perhaps they made use of the eruv to help prepare the meal? Maybe they are not strict on some of the other Lubavich chumras like chalav yisroel, pas yisroel, and especially how… Read more »

Mendel Engel
Guest
Mendel Engel

Thank you Rabbi Schochet for writing this.

To m#48
Guest
To m#48

Please stop with this narishkeit, and eruv is not a kula.

To #49
Guest
To #49

Every rav big or small has a right to establish an eruv, it ‘s not exclusive to a Bais Din that doesn’t represent us all.

To #50
Guest
To #50

What are you talking about. There are many non Satmarer living in KJ.

To #52
Guest
To #52

“I’m a Lubavitcher from Melbourne and I disagree with what Rabbi Shochat wrote that ‘most’ Lubavitchers use the Eruv.
Perhaps 50% of the young married but not most Lubavitchers.”

The eruv in Melbourne is not a Rambam eruv, and since the Alter Rebbe upheld that one should be machmir regarding this issue, I can understand why some don’t use the eruv (besides for the additional issues that the REbbe had). However, the eruv being proposed for CH is a Rambam eruv (and the Rebbe’s issues can be alleviated as well).

To #57
Guest
To #57

“I would like to point out, Rabbi Berel Levin is a expert – mumche in the Alter Rebbe shulchan aruch, indeed he let the team that published the new updated version of the set as well as published many seforim on the alter rebbe shulchan aruch. So while he is not a rov to pasken on the a airuv he definitely can’t be dismissed as an expert option on the alter Rebbe’s Sita on eiruvin especially by layman.” But Rabbi Levin has no right to inject his personal opinions into the Rebbe’s. The Rebbe definitely would not agree to Rabbi… Read more »

To #58
Guest
To #58

Thanks for adding some common sense. You see these people are not interested in the emes, so they create reasons not to use eruvin out of thin air.

To #62
Guest
To #62

It’s interesting that everyone is citing Rav Osdoba’s declaration that an eruv needs the haskama of the moro d’asro, when everyone knows that we cant agree on who is the moro d’asro, just saying.

To #65
Guest
To #65

“If someone dosnt want to exchange halachos for convenience is he backwards?”

Please stop with this apikorsis. Eruvin is not just convince, as the Rebbe said it is a mitzvah. No one has demonstrated that the Rebbe opposed an eruv becasue of halacah.

To #85
Guest
To #85

Stop making claims that can’t be substantiated. No one claims (besides for Rabbi Levin) that an eruv in CH is an halachic issue. It is simply incorrect, and repeating a lie does not make it anymore true.

friend
Guest
friend

reading the back and forth of these arguments, some comments: before even going into the questuon what the rebbe wants to be done- when someone is doing something -not for one day month, or year both for as long as jews live in this place, especially when thinkg about an eiruv, one must consider that even if he means well, and he is doing a good deed for the public -now, but what are the ramifications for later years when he will not be around anymore but the eiruv is still standing. through the generations, community things like eiruv were… Read more »

To #83
Guest
To #83

“Dont you think its time that when it comes to keeping Shabbos, we should finally, once and for all, do something about this and take back our neighborhood?!”

Are you implying that an eruv is synonyms with chilul Shabbos c”v. I hope you realize that this statement smacks of apikorsis.

Live, and let live!
Guest
Live, and let live!

Thank G-d, we all enjoy the benefits of living in a free country.
Why are so many afraid of an Eruv?
If you are so afraid, there is certainly “more fire, where that smoke came from…”. It obviously means, your entire structure, is on shaky ground.

To #97
Guest
To #97

Please back up your claims with sources. You clearly don’t know the history of city eruvin. Your argument is a modern day invention. All large cities in the heim had competing batei dinim, and established citywide eruvin. Moreover, currently many large cities contain eruvin, and do not have a centralized bais din.

Warning through Social Media
Guest
Warning through Social Media

Some people keep bringing up the issue that these days, if the eruv is down, you can notify people through twitter, facebook, email, etc. something that did not exist when the Rebbe wrote his letters. However, what these people fail to understand, is that in order for that to be a valid argument, there would need to be 100% MARKET PENETRATION to everyone…meaning that every single person would have to be guaranteed to be notified. If even one person does not get the notice and carries, then the argument falls to the wayside. If someone has a solution of how… Read more »

REPLY TO $# 73
Guest
REPLY TO $# 73

You say that there is flexibility and lenient positions within the framework of Orthodox Halacha., and that my comparison of actions by the ” new era moderates ” does not follow criteria that led to Conservatism,etc.. Can you cite the lenient sources within Orthodox halacha that permit micro-mnii skits, carrying cell phones on Shabbos, and various other blatant transgressions that best not even be mentioned in a public forum that we, and unfortunately our children witness.. Open your eyes and see what is happening in our neighborhood. What do you expect will become of the children raised within the framework… Read more »

#97, your story is an argument against your position
Guest
#97, your story is an argument against your position

If people from places with eruvin will carry even in places without them, then since almost *every* major Jewish community now has an eruv it would seem to follow that we *need* to make one to save them from chilul shabbos. When the Rebbe dealt with the issue most places outside Eretz Yisroel did not have eruvin. Now Crown Heights is almost the last major Jewish community in the world without one.

Former lubavitcher
Guest
Former lubavitcher

My family are shluchim, I grew up without an Eiruv(and even if visiting an Eiruv community we would never use it) no tv, ate my sukkos meals in the rain etc Now, I live in a town with an Eiruv that shluchim and lubavitchers use, lack of tznius, everyone has a tv, goes to movies, I’ve seen shluchim eat outside of a sukka. I was so uncomfortable by what I saw and had zero role models. Now I daven by young Israel. I use an Eiruv and have a tv but I would never dare call myself a Lubavitcher, bc… Read more »

to 98
Guest
to 98

if the shechuna rabonim say an eruv in CH is asur, it is indeed chilul Shabbos,

Going against the rabanin for those livin in the shechuna, it is indeed apikorsus.

to 89
Guest
to 89

you are right that anyone has the right do what they want, including setting up a non-halachic eruv or even to carry on Shabbos. After all, this is a free country. JUST..
stop identifying yourself with anything Chabad/lubavitch represents, and, as a corollary of this, remove your children from our schools!!

To 95
Guest
To 95

Willing something to be is not a defense. Many, many do hold that it’s impossible according to Chabad mingagin and the Alter Rebbe’s shulchan Arach. Just because you don’t want it to be doesn’t make it not so. Also interesting you only said one of my comments wasn’t so. If the Rebbe wanted us to have it he would have made it happen. This is crown heights. We are chabad. We listen to rebbe.

a comment
Guest
a comment

for those who claim that the rebbe never had halachik issues with the eruv. and never had the issue of reshus harabim, please read: Thirdly and this too is an essential point in my position. The opinion expressed in the first conditional paragraph, namely, that where an eiruv is permissible according to the din it should be instituted, is based of course on the general principle indicated above. However, it expresses no opinion regarding any particular place, such as Manhattan in this case, as to whether or not it indeed qualifies for an eiruv according to the din. This is… Read more »

to 99
Guest
to 99

we are not afraid of the eruv. we are afraid of those that say that they identify with Lubavitch but act in public against anything Lubavitch stands for, thus sending wrong messages to our children. we are afraid of those that supply unfiltered iphones to their 12-13 year old sons in OT (40% of the class as per my son’s report) we are afraid of eating in the households and simchos were kashrus is lax. we are afraid that of the constant shmuzing, texting and looking inappropriate materials in shul that prevent out prayers from being accepted we are afraid… Read more »

snag's dream come true
Guest
snag's dream come true

A secret society decides to build an eruv without the approval of any rav in CH. In fact, they admit he is not even a chabad rav at all. Naturally, everyone gets upset and every shabbos there will be all kinds of yelling and arguments with anyone using the eruv. Some will try to take down the eruv and others will try to fight them. This whole thing makes for a great story in the media about how Jews are so crazy to fight over a piece of string.

Mendel
Guest
Mendel

Think of all the good that will happen if there is an eruv. Sholom bayis, prevention of aveiros from people who don’t know or don’t care, ladies can daven in shul, bochurim can eat cholent in the park etc.

Chabad has always been based on viahavta lirayacha camocha, but all of a sudden everyone is fighting.

We need Moshiach NOW
And Rubashkin should immediately be freed.

P.s. I always thought that we had heterim for everything except getts.

to #90
Guest
to #90

You mention non-Satmar living in Kiryas Yoel. Do they wear miniskirts or in any other way behave contrary to Satmar minhag?

to #60
Guest
to #60

I would LOVE there to be a community somewhere that would really be a 100% Lubavitch atmosphere. How can we get the ball rolling on this?

To 109
Guest
To 109

Understood. To each their own.
How exactly is preventing an Eruv, solving any of these “structural issues”?
Reminds me of the proverbial farmer, “shutting the barn doors, after the horses have bolted”.
It’s indeed time for “Live, and let live, and “lead by example”. Smart Rabbis understand and practice this.

know the halacha-don't be an outsider
Guest
know the halacha-don't be an outsider

Rambam Mishna Torah Hilchos Teshuva Chapter 3 Halacha 11 A person who separates himself from the community [may be placed in this category] even though he has not transgressed any sins. A person who separates himself from the congregation of Israel and does not fulfill mitzvot together with them, does not take part in their hardships, or join in their [communal] fasts, but rather goes on his own individual path as if he is from another nation and not [Israel], does not have a portion in the world to come. “Those who proudly commit sins in public as Jehoyakim did,”… Read more »

To #101
Guest
To #101

“Some people keep bringing up the issue that these days, if the eruv is down, you can notify people through twitter, facebook, email, etc. something that did not exist when the Rebbe wrote his letters. However, what these people fail to understand, is that in order for that to be a valid argument, there would need to be 100% MARKET PENETRATION to everyone…meaning that every single person would have to be guaranteed to be notified. If even one person does not get the notice and carries, then the argument falls to the wayside. ” There is a much simpler way… Read more »

To #104
Guest
To #104

Such hevel, what does the eruv have to do with it.

To #105
Guest
To #105

“Going against the rabanin for those livin in the shechuna, it is indeed apikorsus. ”

Wow, new halchos being exposed on this board daily. The only apikorsis is not believing that an eruv is a takanos Chazal. Arguing that an eruv will degrade a schunah, would in essence do away with all eruvin, and that is called an eino modeh beruv, an apikoris.

Oped
Guest
Oped

Can someone please write an oped about forming a new Lubavitch community where everyone will adhere to our standards and our kids won’t fry out?

Using Chabad
Guest
Using Chabad

All of you people who are pro Eruv, and calljng yourselves names like ” modern Nusach Ari” etc. have to get a grip. The ideology of Chabad Lite is a blight on the face of Lubavitch. You are mistreating the fact that the Rebbe loves every Jew. That love is there to align a Jew to his Neshoma. You are using that love to corrupt chabad and give in to your Yetzer Horo! Chassidus is about going lifnim meshuras hadin. Not choosing your Kulas to make life comfortable. A chossid cannot lie to himeslf. This is no longer Ahavas Yisroel.… Read more »

notification
Guest
notification

you did not include-what if the eiruv breaks in middle of shaboss-like in the famous story in sefer hazichroinois-, how will people be notified by twitter. who will them what to do when they are in middle of the street and carrying

To #107
Guest
To #107

“Willing something to be is not a defense. Many, many do hold that it’s impossible according to Chabad mingagin and the Alter Rebbe’s shulchan Arach.”

This is simply a canard. The Rebbe never had an halachic issue with eruvin. We can erect eruvin that would be acceptable according to the Alter Rebbe.

To  #120
Guest
To #120

Who said anything about chabad-lite? The Nusach Ari Community in CH are like the thousands of Nusach Ari Jews that have lived in America and Europe for many years.

CH young women need Eruv
Guest
CH young women need Eruv

CH young women , CH women are locked for whole Shabbes at home , is it fair ? Yes , one can say . No -others …. Almost all young women have a Facebook/whatsup – ask each of them if they want to go out to visit their friends ? Specially women that don’t have any family in CH with a large house that can host them over Shabbes ….. From the men side is very cheap to buy one robe and not 54-108 Shabbes outfits …. Why not to make life easier ? Why it is so complicated ?… Read more »

Just one problem...
Guest
Just one problem...

One major inaccuracy with th otherwise compelling argument:

Crown heights does not have one beis Din. There is no Mara deasra. There is outright machlokes. It has been this way for years…at least since when Rav marlow died.
And no, not all restaurants are under the same hashgacha. There are two variants of chk and there are places under the OK.
So….”hee hanosenes”, the very lack of uniformity that you describe is the reason that a halachic ally legitimate Eruv should be erected and whomever wishes to use/not use, shall do as they please

To #121
Guest
To #121

Make back-up eruvin and there is no need for twitter.

@124 and other women who feel locked
Guest
@124 and other women who feel locked

Im sorry you that you feel like this. Im a young woman w kids. I dont feel locked. Neither do my friends and neighbors. We love having one day a week to spend home w our family. If we want company, we host. If we want to go out, we go to neighbors or my friends or husband babysit. Im sorry that with all these options you still feel locked

To #125
Guest
To #125

They all made the same argument, in other neighborhoods when they started to erect an eruv. It didn’t last long, Everyone wonders how did they do it until now.

stop
Guest
stop

I think its enough! whoever is trying to make an eiruv in CH go out of the closet and either you go and work it out with the BD or come out in the open so everyone knows who you are and your real intentions.

#125
Guest
#125

I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you!! #stopblamingwomenforyourownissues

to #116
Guest
to #116

A back up eruv? that is the silliest solution I ever heard! If there is an ice or snow storm on Thursday/Friday that knocks out the eruv, chances are the ‘back up’ eruv was invalidated in the process as well. So again the question becomes,: How are you notifying EVERYONE (as it has to be everyone) that the eruv (and back up) are down?

#104
Guest
#104

Dude full respect man!

Modern technology
Guest
Modern technology

Can an eruv be built and wired so that if it breaks on shabbos let’s say small strobe lights go on at many locations )street corners ,shuls , so that people know immediately ? That would address the Rebbe’s concern about what happens if it breaks on shsbbos. Also, if there’s an eruv then it makes it ok to ask a non Jew to wheel your baby carriage for you. And also for elderly parents who can walk but distance is challenging. They can use a wheelchair without thinking twice. I’m in favor of an eruv that will not be… Read more »

Excellent Article
Guest
Excellent Article

Excellent article! Would only point out what you know but don’t elaborate on because it’s a side issue (but others might not know). An apartment building needs its own eruv for people to carry or push a stroller from one apartment to the next. However, this is very easy to do and has none of the (numerous) problems involved in a city eiruv. Any rov can guide this. You just have to formally rent the common area (even for spiritual use) from the custodian (a worker is fine and the owner need not be involved), matzos or any food that… Read more »

Live and let live!
Guest
Live and let live!

Some of us want to live in the Rebbe’s Shechuna without an eruv, and constructing one bothers us since it’s against the Rebbe’s wishes and against the Rabonim. Please let us live our lives in peace and take your eruv elsewhere, thanks.

To #131
Guest
To #131

“A back up eruv? that is the silliest solution I ever heard! If there is an ice or snow storm on Thursday/Friday that knocks out the eruv, chances are the ‘back up’ eruv was invalidated in the process as well. So again the question becomes,: How are you notifying EVERYONE (as it has to be everyone) that the eruv (and back up) are down?” Why don’t you ask prior to making statements. I mentioned that this idea of back-up eruvin is being used in Boro Park and and Williamsburg. The fact is these neighborhoods never had a Shabbos that the… Read more »

Important Obsevation
Guest
Important Obsevation

One of the reasons to erect an eruv for the entire CH is because of the fact that many of the private eruvin that were erected are not kosher. It’s a pity that the rabbanim don’t realize what a ziku harabbim a community eruv would be. Everyone should stop being reactionary, and then they would realize that the benefits of an eruv far outweighs it’s drawbacks.

137
Guest
137

Thats silly. One who cant keep the eruv in his own daled amos kosher can make the whole crown heights kosher. Go figure.

Question
Guest
Question

What about making smaller aruves? Is this something beneficial? Would the rabbonim support it?

ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!
Guest
ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!

We need to put ALL Rabonim aside, and all the Halachos aside and go by one thing and one thing only, that is THE REBBE’S DIRECTIVE!!!! The Rebbe was against it, and until we hear from the Rebbe’s mouth that he now says differently, his previous stand MUST STILL STAND!!!!! if for no other reason than the fact that this IS the Rebbe’s shchuna. By going against the Rebbe you are basically saying this is no longer the Rebbe’s domain. That is playing with the worst kind of fire imaginable.

T0 #138
Guest
T0 #138

Please think before responding. Private eruvin are made without expert and rabinical input, as opposed to an eruv for the schunah.

Yakov
Guest
Yakov

Very well said!!

Deeper Issue
Guest
Deeper Issue

Thank you for this informative article. Most of the comments are people arguing for or against an eruv. But the reason people want an eruv in the first place is not addressed — except also only on the surface. Women feel stuck at home, they are lonely. To me this is a result of the divided community, of cliques and even challenges in shalom bayis. It can be difficult to be at home– all the more so if you are living in CH without a lot of family support or if your marriage is not pleasant. The kids get wild… Read more »

@123
Guest
@123

According to Wikipedia ~ “Nusach Ari means, in a general sense, any prayer rite following the usages of Rabbi Isaac Luria, the AriZal, in the 16th century, and, more particularly, the derivative version of it used by Chabad Hasidim.”

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