From the COLlive Inbox:
Hi, My name is Yitzy I have many friends from all over, who are somewhat similar to myself – all with one label – ADD/ADHD – whether we have been labelled by doctors and professionals or by parents and friends.
“He’s not a learner” is what people say about my friends.
The problem is, that in our generation, if ‘you are not a learner’ – and you don’t strike really lucky, you are prone to disaster. Why? you may ask…. well it’s very simple – because nowadays, at the touch of a button (not even a click anymore) one can be led to all sorts (I don’t need to explain …) and when someone can’t learn, he leaves yeshiva, and once he leaves yeshiva ….
But I would like to speak out for all my friends who I feel have been mistreated. I have many friends who ‘didn’t fit’ into the system and had go to a ‘catered’ yeshiva and eventually ended up in no yeshiva. (some didn’t even try the special yeshivos)
– I am specifically talking about good bochurim that really want what’s right and are not ‘in-to’ any shmutz (which is basically true for all bochurim – at the beginning ) but who felt that learning was too hard for them or ”not for them.”
Why is this? Why did this happen that my sweet innocent friends didn’t fit into the system?
I would like to proceed with a question:
Could it be that when the Rebbe always speaks about the fact that bochurim’s job is learning torah, the Rebbe ignored them?
When the Rebbe asks to add a kvius in learning, did he not mean them?
How can it be that for many of them college studies etc. are not too hard for them but learning is too hard? That all the greatness of torah isn’t for them!?
Of course not!
But let’s give one scenario – a innocent bochur comes to yeshiva and is told to open a gemora and learn for two hours straight. But he feels he can’t, it’s too much. But he so desperately want to do whats right, to do what Hashem wants, or to make The Rebbe proud, but he just doesn’t have the same skills as the other boys to get the gemora flowing or he can’t get the sugya clear, it’s like whirling circles in his head…
So the Mashpia calls him over and asks him “nu,” and the struggling bocher says “it’s too much…., learning is not for me,” and his heart breaks as he says these words. So the mashpia tells him a story of the Tzemach Tzedek – When someone told the Tzemach tzedek “I don’t have cheshek to learn” he answered “and what should I do that I do have cheshek to learn?!” In other words the trials and difficulites in his learning are a privilege etc. and the Mashpia tells him to PUSH and try harder and his work is worth more etc. So he goes back and he tries again, and maybe it works for a while, maybe it doesn’t, but he ends up giving up. He has tried to break himself like the mashpia told him to and it just didn’t work…
Even more then that, when this bochur does chitas or learns chumash etc during the time he should be learning – because that’s what he feels will build his connection with the Rebbe -, he gets harassed by his friends (and maybe even mashpiim) with names like “porek ol” or is told “you have to do chitas rambam again ” etc. etc.
So after breaking himself and trying and giving up and trying again and giving up, and feeling he’s wasting his years, he comes to the conclusion: learning torah or “kodesh studies” are not for me.
How sad…
Now I would like to bring the answer of The Rebbe in Igros Kodesh volume 9 page 90 -free translation:
….This that you write regarding a weakness in ‘concentrating your thoughts,’ It is known one of the solutions for this , that when one gets fed up [lit. ‘tired’] he should change the learning to another subject in a place where his heart desires and NOT TO FORCE HIMSELF to continue specifically in that subject that he is having trouble with….
The Rebbe’s words speak for themselves.
As I said earlier, many bochurim who leave yeshiva and who go and learn a trade or go to university ch”v, are able to concentrate perfectly fine and they are happy to accomplish something.
Perhaps one of the explanations as to how this situation came about is as follows – . In previous generations there was an ein yaakov shiur [stories of the gemora compiled in three large books] and if you said tehilim as well, you could be a sincere G-d-fearing man without being a great gaon. Nowadays, if I cant learn the top stuff – forget it! I’m an outcast!
Torah is so broad, so huge, there is for sure something that you haven’t tried but you’re just not interested. Why? Because you were put off and now you have a strong resentment towards it…
Can you read a story in a magazine? Then you can learn Ein Yaakov, it’s probably easier.
Simple halacha what to do if one of your tzitzis get cut off, in kitzur shulchon oruch….
A maamer which teaches you how to have a relationship with G-d…..the interesting minhogim of the upcoming yom-tov in the nitei gavriel ….the list goes on and on…
Bochurim should also realise, that there is a reason why thousands of not-lubavitchers are going crazy over chassidus and it may seem just boring to you. Because Chassidus is not some far-off thing talking about some G-d in the heavens, Chassidus is talking about YOU, who YOU really are, and not your hidden neshoma somewhere….
There is without a doubt a piece of Torah which you can relate to, and fall in love with, and through this stabilize your life and have true piece of mind (which can only be through realising your purpose in this world – the Rebbe parshas bamidbor 5751.) One should ask his mashpia /role model/ asei lecho rav for what subject he should learn.
My only question is why are there so many hanhola members who don’t act in accordance with this directive of the Rebbe (besides for most younger, more in-tune mashpiim). Just not long ago, a friend who is not known as such a learner told me that when he asked a member of hanhola to switch subjects because he just didn’t have a head for the official subject which they were supposed to be learning, the mashpia started to scream at him “this is the seder, and if you don’t like it, leave the yeshiva!”
No appreciation that actually he wanted to learn this time, instead he sent him slouching back angrily to his seat so he will now chat with his friends for the rest of seder. Great Job, Rabbi!
Let’s hope that we should all find our true connection with the Torah in a way that we choose it because we love it and through this, lead happy succesful lives.
May we be zoche to hear the Rebbe talking once again, b’korov mamash.
I want to thank that special man who opened my eyes to the truth after long hard hours.
Disclaimer: This is all only the way I see the picture from the Rebbe’s igros and the way I was told of the Rebbe’s shita bichlal, anyone who would like to differ may do so.
I beleive some people in the field should open a farm somewhere on a mountaintop should be directed under a principle with degree for special Ed Program should be half day individualized limide kodesh and secular studies. Other half for farming and all kinds of vocational. Training Like construction. Electrician. Mechanics computers. Culinary. And the likes. If boys have an official diagnose each boy can get funding from the state if school is certified as learning disabled center or school. Also as a teen at risk prevention center. We simply can’t afford to lose our future leaders to the streets
Hi all there. Same boat. I beleive that boys from age 16 with issues all need part time learning part time trading school. Unfortunately if they exist they close for lack of funding. The govt does pay for individual with ld if school is certified. So how about constructing that. Each boy needs official diagnosis as ld learning disabled like dyslexia or ADHD. It al boils down there. My sons 16. Brilliant and home. Govt wants pay for school but it ain’t exist.
can’t thank you enough for saying what you did
YG in melburne is SERIOUSLY individualised learning. Theres 45 bochurim in the whole yeshiva and there are 4 streams! I’ve seen such amazing success from that place!
the lower streams focus ONLY on reading and translating, and they learn with shluchim to help them out EVERY SINGLE DAY!
The program we would like to run will start off in Crown Heights. (sorry no dorm for now:( The Bais Hatalmud is geared to Bochurim who want to learn any time during the day. Maybe people who need a less busy environment, or for people who are busy part time but still want to learn some of the time. Also for people who want to learn more or don’t enjoy the busy zal atmosphere. We will work with bochurim and help them with their learning. if we get a group of boys who want more structure we are ready to… Read more »
I feel the bochurim are missing a lot of the curricullum in
limudai kodesh that girls learn. Many bochurim would love to learn nach, historia, biur tefillah etc. I would love to see a yeshiva fo bochurim that offer these sujects too
A chassidisher bochur with add can make it through Pittsburgh, the hannholo there are very good at individuality! With a plus of 0 mashke tolerance (some may look at that as a con)
And I know good boys that came out of pittsburgh totally changed for the good
BH you made it. But girls don’t have to sit in yeshiva from 7am to 9 pm trying to learn gemorah that’s way beyond her current ability, and with a “mashpia” who tells you that if you can’t sit and learn all day, you might as well drop out and be a “bum” LO ALEINU. that’s what they told my sons. BH they were fighters, and didn’t frei out. But they have a horrible taste for learning now. We need – for every boy, not just the ones who learn differently – a totally revamped yeshivah system. My solution? Momentarily… Read more »
BS”D
you are great! Emes 🙂
After reading almost all the comments here i want to put it in a different light….a very positive light… I am a young woman in my 20s who yes has ADHD and a few language issues. Does that stop me? No! Despite having grades always fluctuating, i worked hard on both social skills and focusing and i ended up becoming a health professional – one that can help others succeed. Everyone tends to look at AD/HD as a disability…it is NOT! it is only a disability if you let it win. But if you work extremely hard, be a genuinely… Read more »
Chinuch line’arim al pi darkum.
Teaching youngsters is to be according to their path/speed/depth/interest (at any given moment).
I KNOW OF A GOOD MESIVTA CALLED HAMESIVTA IN LUBAVITCHER YESHIVA ON OCEAN PARKWAY AND AVENUE H, GOOGLE THEM !!! HATZLOCHA !!!
+1
i got this too much growing up
I elaborated what I meant in #29. I think it’s a subject we can all discuss openly. We’re not in communist Russia Baruch Hashem. We can come up with solutions without fearing “being caught” הגיע הזמן Ofra Baum
excellent school in lancaster PA , learning and vocational, the boys really learn a lot there if they want to, its a pretty petty but well worth it, Worth looking into it , not a lubavitch school but the shliach teaches there, but was a great school .
sadly there is no such yeshiva we tried a few different ones they all promise ”individualized” learning. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR CHILD WILL BE CARED FOR BY ”PROFESSIONALS” HE WILL BE PUT IN A ROOM WITH AT LEAST 30-40 OTHERS HE WILL GET LOST. THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH MANY OF OUR CHILDREN. with some training these” mashpiem” can learn how to help these boys and be excepting of the boys for who they are as people, and help them with this challenge they KNOW they have with some= TLC TENDER LOVE AND CARE.… Read more »
My daughter is a wonderful girl in every single way. She is bright, hardworking, kind, talented and capable and a real balebasta.. But she has dyslexia. Because of that textual learning is difficult for her and she struggles with text based learning. She could not get into a semjnary of her choice and was otherwise discriminated against when it came to teaching jobs in our local school. The relief came when she finally got married and is doing amazing on shlichus and is using her amazing talents to ker a velt. Baruch Hashem, she held out, but during those years,… Read more »
Another ignored problem,
Should note that sometimes these things work themselves out with the right amount of guidance and patience on the part of the Hanhola, as well as perseverance. My son, diagnosed with ADHD, is now thriving and is a positive example to others.
Everytime a writer brings up solid issues affecting the Holy Yidden who follow Hashem and Moshe rabbenu of our time, and only seek to live in yahadus, some nasty mean person is always commenting, ‘say your name’ !! You intolerant boor, shame on you, you want to shut up any free speech, so that we can look at the problems and hopefully find some solutions. You types, who crush free speech, are afraid of the truth and want to pretend all is well when there is rot to be cleansed out of our crumbling system. yasher Koach to COL live… Read more »
most of what you said was 100% true…and good for you to speak up and say it. However, i am not sure of how that would be a solution. Maybe their should separate schools with a completely different structure that doesn’t expect the boys to sit for hours (even if it is a subject they connect to)
The Yeshiva in Pretoria is catering specifically to bochrim who need more than just being expected to sit and learn in Chavruso for most of the day. Shiurim most of the day in a variety of subjects, longer breaks during the day, with an exciting incentive program, where bochrim can earn outings etc. It is a full day learning program, but in a more relaxed atmosphere.
i totaly agree!!!! i dont really have anything to do with that whole system, im a girl, but i totaly agree!!!!!
To 30:
ADD varies in severity. Some (maybe you?) are fortunate in the sense that they can focus for a short while (few minutes) before tuning out. So those spurts of minutes can accumulate up to a success story, B”H.
Others can’t concentrate at all! These cases need more attention and special care for them to get by.
ive heard that joke but that was absolutely rude and disgusting of you to write that now. here people are trying to come up with ways of helping people with add/adhd and you go and make jokes out of it?!! do you have no sense?!
There is another school that is trade and learning in PA (unless it closed.) But here is another way to look at it: At one time, the only ones going on to full learning were the “best of the best” ahem, I mean the “round pegs that fit round holes” or…maybe… the ones with no imagination, and no ability to ask new questions, the ones content to sit and have all the answers and questions come out of the books in front of them….in other words, good memorizers. Feh, for that we have recorders and computers. HsShem doesn’t want a… Read more »
I’ve seen children being destroyed even though they tried to “stick it out” and work hard. Maybe because they tried to “stick it out” and were not removed in time from an abusive, insensitive system, they were put in a vulnerable position where thier abuse continued. Someone has to take the initiative to create a different system. We as Baalei Teshuvah, who tried so hard to fit in, have mostly lost our initiative to make another revolution. We already made a revolution in our lives when we changed them to be shomer mitzvos, a step that put us in a… Read more »
i can only really say thank you for wording that the way you did. ive been screaming those words in my head for the last seven years. theres a reason in the last seven years i’ve been through SIX yeshivas. thats not the way someone should go through any “system.” so again thank you
I agree with totally – in same position – kid kicked out of school because teacher and principal just didn’t understand him and thought he was causing trouble in class, instead of realising they needed to change the style of teaching to include kids who cannot stay totally focused for 45 mins at a time minimum! These boys needs hands on approach to Torah learning, as well as some text based, to keep their minds focused. The fact that my son is still frum and chassidish is to his credit. And we need a solution fast….
The problems begin in the early years of school, so by time of mesifta and zal, the bochurim are already struggling. My sons were yelled at since they were 3 years old, shamed in public, etc. That they are still frum is amazing. When the oldest joined Ottawa in its primary year, he quickly fell to the level of the lowest boys due to the social pressure. Schools with special programs are not for the boys who still wish to be ‘system’ bochurim, like the boy described by #15. Thank you #23, but for bochurim who live outside of Crown… Read more »
Good for you and Kol Hakavod. But everyone has ADD on their own level. Not everyone has access to the care you may have received.
Attention deficit….. Hey, doughnuts!!
im 18 and not stupid, if i would go to a secular school i might very well be one of the top students, because im quite intelligent, and enjoy learning, but was never taught how to read the “flaming” piece of gemorah!
the yeshivas need to employ mashpiyim that are young, “in the passport,” and at heart, – they understand bochurim of today, have an out going personality and are not judgemental, the day a yeshiva finds someone like that i think all the bochurim of the whole world will be there!
to everyone who has commented and who understands how we as parents of boys like Yitzy feel, when watching our boys struggle.
to #23 – this is a good idea for older bochurim, but what about bochurim who are younger and need to be in a more structured setting? Any ideas??
didnt rabbi heller speak about this teaching one on their level
i have a friend whose child has similar issues – good, frum, chassidish etc but with difficulties in standard text based learning only . Parents have been told by the principal that they are failing as parents if they do not give their child Ritalin! No trying to accommodate different styles of learning….
Are you trying to make excuses “poor me, I’m a victim” or “nasty Mashpia, I’m a victim”? People with ADD can succeed in the system if they are willing to try and overcome their challenges. Including medication, therapies or plain old hard work. I know, I succeeded even though my rebbis in Yeshiva said I was a failure and made my life h@!!. It was very hard, but I stuck with it even though everyone except my parents told me to drop out. I got smicha. I have a great job and a great life. Don’t be a victim, find… Read more »
Everyone who writes about this stays annonimous. Fear of being rejected by the mainstream community, and so this unhealthy, abusive system is perpetuated to the misfortune of the many children that suffer through the system and eventually leave to try to salvage any normalicy they may have left. It’s only in such an insulated community that such an atrocity can continue (or in third world countries). There are many advantages in an insulated community but when it comes to perpetuating the abuse of individuals because they don’t “fit” the system, that we know doesn’t necessarily represent the Torah, it resembles… Read more »
There are many ways to deal with ADD or ADHD and problems with concentrating… One of them that is very effective to open up the mind and regulate the nervous system is training with neurofeedback. Google it and you’ll find all about it. I have trained with it with amazing results… Hatzlocho rabo…
Truth speaks for itself
Yeshiva Gedola in melbourne is a Mainstream Yeshiva with STREAMED Shiurim, from very advanced bochurim to bochurim that can’t read a word. All the Bochurim are like one big family, and there have been hundreds of bochurim that have come out from being a zero to hero. Bochurim who had no interest have come out much better than they ever imagined they could(im one of them!)
Same issue here. But Rabbi Wagner from toronto was right on the ball.
I had an issues learning hilchos shabbos… muktzah…. he let my chavrusa and I learn a subject in halacha of our choice…. Rabbi Wagner you saved my “life” and am forever in debt.
Kol Hakavod to te article writer. I plead with everyone to think before they write, especially if they don’t have a disability like ADD, or have a child who does. I have ADD and have two young beautiful children, I worry daily how I’ll be able to teach them. I Boruch Hashem have a decent job, but every day is a struggle. My mind is in a world of its own. The Yeahiva cookie cutter system wasn’t for me. I don’t blame the system as that’s not healthy or productive, but I fear for other people in my position. We… Read more »
We have an idea to open a Beis Medrash in Crown Heights where Bochurim could come and learn as they wish. This is not a Yeshiva where everyone has to be on the same page. The Bochurim are able to come and learn any Gemara they want. They are not bound to a curriculum, just like in Kollel where everyone learns what their interested in. Bochurim can learn with a friend or we can pair them up with someone from 770. Obviously there will be set times for Chassidus, Nigle and Halacha. What you will learn, how you will learn,… Read more »
We have an idea to open a Beis Medrash in Crown Heights where Bochurim could come and learn as they wish. This is not a Yeshiva where everyone has to be on the same page. The Bochurim are able to come and learn any Gemara they want. They are not bound to a curriculum, just like in Kollel where everyone learns what their interested in. Bochurim can learn with a friend or we can pair them up with someone from 770. Obviously there will be set times for Chassidus, Nigle and Halacha. What you will learn, how you will learn,… Read more »
I know first hand JETS is no longer the last stop,
Rather they have upgraded their admission Standerds so that chasidisher bochurim too can participate
Thank you
The Rebbeh has many clear guidelines (people often ignore) to obtain the full benifit of “Aseh Lecha Rav”
many who claim to have a mashpia, actually do not know the subtle guidelines to really be in compliance with the Rebbe’s “Bakasha Nafshis” re All jews to have a personal mentor
1) Adderal!! had i not tried it since 15 years ago i wouldn’t be able to vouch for it & confidently dismiss the noisy skeptics!! 2) Remeber as Jews, its not about ME ME ME, or what “I want”!! its about what Hashem wants of me! so sit down with your Mashpia & figure out an appropreate & realistic expectation of learning that is right for your unique nature & limitations! you need not live up to another person’s standard! Hashem has only one standard for you! that is to make an effort to be who you “can” be &… Read more »
This was sincere, honest and eye opening. To #8, you obviously don’t know anything about internet safety, interesting that a bochur who has obviously had his struggles knows more than you. To the author- may you have hatzlacha in spreading this around and changing the world for the better.
And isn’t that what Chassidus came to accomplish in the first place? The idea among the lomdim of those days was that only a talmid chacham is a worthwhile Jew, whereas the Baal Shem Tov pointed out that all Jews are equally precious to Hashem, and that the simple person’s Tehillim from the heart is worth at least as much as the ilui’s Shas.
This bochur’s story may be true or false, but all the other real boys suffering from the same but sad story can tell you the same. My youngest son, 17, has weak Gemorra skills and we applied to 5 zals and except for one they all said “not accepted” NOT ACCEPTED to a chassidisher bochur who wants to learn but has weak kriah skills but good auditory skills. And the one yeshiva that accepted him- well he doesn’t want to go there because of the bad reputation of the boys there who are not interested in learning. Can someone please… Read more »
There is a difference between ADD and dyslexia, there are people who have ADD who went thought the yeshiva system fine, the real issue is when your dyslexic the text based curriculum just doesn’t seem to cater for that at all. I went through the Chabad system did simcha and dyslexic. I didn’t want to be different from anyone else, so became anti social and just wanted to learn my self at my own pace, so no one would see how I learn and think I’m stupid or slow… I would read the subjects I was interested in, I didn’t… Read more »
that we should teach at the level where the student is, that if a student does not learn from how you are teaching, then you should go to where he is. (I didn’t hear him say this, but from what I have read, this is what he said.) This is very obvious to me, as I am a successful teacher; however,there are some who are in a teacher role only. They do not have background knowledge of child development or pedagogy. They do not have training with supervision before they enter their field. They are not naturally skilled in the… Read more »
Thanks for speaking my heart!!!
What a beautiful article, written by an obviously very tmimusdike bochur. Halevai the mechanchim and menahalim should hear his “dvorim hayotzim min halev” and they will look at bochurim differently when they have trouble concentrating.
great way to put it may you and your friends and all the bochurim that feel identified find their place in yeshivah and feel accomplished!
Chabad trade school in la
Back in Europe you went to cheder and to work,
If you were a iluy.. A genius than you went off to yeshivah..
Now the expect everyone to fit into a round box , where only a few are round…and the rest suffer and suffer.
In LA there is a Lubavitch Moises “jets” that combines Likud hatoirah with learning a trade , it’s the best of both worlds,
Ignore what everyone else may say, think of what’s best for your. Child
You’re very right! The seasoned mashpiyim and mashpiyos among us are marvelous people who are doing a world of good for many. We now need even more young mashpiyim and mashpiyos because the younger generation is KA”H only growing in numbers and age kayn yirbu, and everyone needs to be able to find a maskpia for themselves that they can relate to. Who is stepping up to fill this important role — will it be you, Reader?
Great analogy. thanks for pointing it out.
I have a son who fits this description. He is homeschooling now. I would like to know if anyone can recommend a mesivta that will work with bochurim. He does not have social or behavioral problems. He does not have problems with frumkeit. He needs a yeshiva that will work with his learning style-more auditory and less text based. Does such a place exist.
I agree but not too many people running yeshivas, mestiftas, and zal will also and even if they do the will say you can’t change the system.
you are a hundred percent right.if we would really feel and appreciate the value of every bochur’l, it would be a very different scene.the Torah is big enough for each one of them to find someething that appeals to them,halocha,chassidus,on 100 differnet levels to suit all-torah is for ALL