By Sruli Schochet – Los Angeles
I was happy to read the article by Eli Shechter about kaporos, as it is an important subject and warrants discussion. As the saying goes here in Los Angeles: the only things worse than everyone talking about you, is no one talking about you.
While I agree with some of his practical insights addressed in the article (making sure the chickens are in a proper shady location; making sure that water is provided at proper intervals, etc.), the author takes a sudden left, makes presumptions that are not based on fact or halacha and draws some very dangerous conclusions as a result.
Before I begin, I want to ask the author’s forgiveness in advance if I come across as harsh or condescending. It is not my intention to attack you personally in any way shape or form. However, when it comes to Minhag Yisroel Torah He, especially in a generation which is “Benai adom yoshev choshech” (children of man who sit in darkness), one needs to be very careful what one writes publicly, as you never know who you might, chas vesholom, negatively influence.
To start, I am perplexed at the notion that it takes the author several hours to kasher a chicken. I have watched the process done many times and it does not take nearly that long – unless one lacks major experience. But then again, if one lacks such experience, should they be professing to talk as an expert on the matter? That I will leave for the readers to decide.
In reality, the author should do kaporos on a chicken, slaughter it properly, do the halachic basics required to be done then and there (salting for blood removal etc.) and then he can finish the process after Yom Kippur if need be.
But to alter a Minhag Yisroel that goes back close to two millennia, simply because one “does not have the time,” and on Erev Yom Kippur no less, truly boggles the mind.
He goes on to make a claim how we “we have a responsibility to adapt the way we keep our minhagim.” The truth is, this is not a new argument. It was made by the Sadducees, the Haskalah movement, and it is the battle cry of every Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist ‘rabbi’. Needless to say, we do not adapt our holy customs to the times. That is a slippery slope from where there is no coming back.
The worst part is, the entire premise leading up to that statement is based on a falsehood. The author claims that kaporos long ago was a calm and serene setting, whereas now it’s all-out chaos. However, nothing could be further from the truth.
In my article, I quoted the Chayei Adam (R’ Avraham Danzig 1748-1820) as the only source even mentioning the idea of using money instead of chickens (Chayei Adam 144:4). However, it’s important to note his reasoning why. He was worried that being that there are so many people there doing kaporos and the shochtim will be up all night slaughtering the chickens, he was concerned that it would lead to the ritual knives going bad and people potentially eating nevailot (a kosher animal not slaughtered properly) which is obviously a huge sin.
It’s important to note that the Mishnah Berurah (605:2) mentions this problem, but then gives several practical solutions to combat it (switching out the shochtim throughout the night; having many good knives prepared in advance; etc.).
The takeaway from those statements are twofold:
1. Kaporos was a treasured minhag to which people showed up en masse to participate in it, even centuries ago, thus triggering the concern of the Chayei Adam. This is in direct contrast to what the author wrote how today it is chaos so we need to adapt, as opposed to the days of old.
2. You would think that if there is a concern of the chickens going bad, then there is a concern of ba’al tashchis as well. Yet it is imperative to note that no one mentions the concern of ba’al tashchis as a reason not to do kaporos on chickens.
The reason is simple, and this brings me to my last point. The author completely misrepresents what the law of ba’al tashchis is all about. We read the origin for the prohibition of ba’al tashchis just a few weeks ago in Parshas Shoftim (Deuteronomy 20:19-20) where it discusses the prohibition of cutting down a fruit bearing tree. The Rabbis added to that the prohibition of needlessly wasting anything (Rambam Hilchas Melachim 6:10).
However, there is an important caveat there: to be in violation, it needs to be done with a destructive intent. If the destruction that is taking place serves a proper purpose, then it is not a violation of ba’al tashchis! That is why even though it’s a Rabbinic decree not to needlessly tear a garment, we tear our garments when in mourning. In fact, when a king or Nasi dies, out of respect, we may burn his bed and all his personal utensils (Rambam Hilchas Avel 14:26). Can you think of a bigger ba’al tashchis then that? What about giving it to charity or Goodwill?
However, halacha is clear that when something is being ‘destroyed’ for a reason and not just for the sake of destruction, it is not a violation of ba’al tashchis. These chickens being used for kaporos, even if they are thrown in the garbage –while not ideal, and certainly not mehadrin– does not constitute the Rabbinic prohibition of ba’al tashchis, since they are serving a real and important purpose.
In the merit of us all not being cowed by its detractors and for standing strong by our minhagim, may we all go L’chaim Tovim Aruchim U’Leshalom in the Yom Shekulo Aruch, with the coming of Moshiach Tzidkenu, speedily, Amen!
With respect you are not right
I shechted in back gardens
Had four Romanian girls pluck
Waited till opened made bedikas hadakin checked lungs etc
Did tzomos (five chickens; no big deal) and went off on my merry way
It is a pity that people are throwing Halacha around Mentioning poskim and even the Rebbe The Rebbe had his own Shochet The Rebbe kaporah was one Easy to Kosher kehalocho To throw chickens in ocean is illegal and undeniably forbidden If public Kapporus can be organised to execute(no pun intended) with all hiddurim we expect from our shechittos and the chickens are consumed by whoever then the objection of the SA can be discarded as the minhag emanated well before the SA and as those who know the Hakdomo of the Beis Yosseph will recognise the objection fails in… Read more »
The Ri shon LeTzion beautifully explains that
We buy a chicken from an organization, and then donate the chicken to an organization that can use it to feed people. Why keep it?
My name is Miriam, Eli is my husband. I am not getting involved in any part of this debate except to clarify one thing. This is to all the people who don’t even know my husband at all, yet still feel quite comfortable insinuating that he is incompetent and does not even know how to skin a chicken FYI, skinning a fat broiler is a whole different ballgame from skinning the lean , local chickens that we raise. It is NOT easy getting the skin off them. So , before you judge someone, try to think that it is entirely… Read more »
For using your G-d given knowledge & abilities to help clarify the issues. And for those of us who have the heart to know…….
Learn the sources first mentioned in #20.
Without prior knowledge of such (which your comments demonstrate) you can’t really say anything…
K from BMG makes 2 powerful points. Just because a person have a benefit from the destruction – it doesn’t justify hashchosa. Also, the ratio of shochtim in a community was higher than it is today. Thanks for pointing it out. I felt the article was wrong but couldn’t put my finger it till you did. Agreed!
The previous article really made me second guess everything about kappores. THANK YOU so much for writing this to get us all back on track!
Two things: 1) You may want to research Jewish populations in large cities pre-WWII. This is not just about shtetel’s, but about all cities, including the very many large ones that had Jewish populations in the many hundreds of thousands. 2) You may want to look in the Hilchos Shechita sefer called Simlah Chadasha (18:12 under Yom Chof) that specifically discusses concessions that can be made by the shochtim on erev-Yom Kippus in order to accomidate the sheer volume of chickens that were being processed for kaporos. Thus, there is no inference by the author. It is as close to… Read more »
A second misleading statement in this article: “The author [of earlier Response article] claims that kaporos long ago was a calm and serene setting, whereas now it’s all-out chaos.” The articles tries to refute this assertion by stating: “He [the Chayay Aom] was worried that being that there are so many people there doing kaporos and the shochtim will be up all night slaughtering the chickens, he was concerned that it would lead to the ritual knives going bad and people potentially eating nevailot (a kosher animal not slaughtered properly) which is obviously a huge sin.” Therefore, the author logically… Read more »
There are many examples of baal tashchis that can be construed either way. You cannot pick and choose to your liking. There has to be a proper purpose involved. For example, the Gemoro Shabbos that you cite has a whole back and forth about if, when and how displays of anger are permissible. Anger in any form is generally frowned upon and can be displayed in other manners. Therefore breaking the vessels, to emphasize your anger, serves no real purpose. The Rebbe in Likutei Sichos Sec 18 pg 465-466 explains the concept beautifully, based on an inference from Shulchan Aruch… Read more »
You are wrong. Many Gedolei Haposkim considered it Darkei Amoreh and Avodah Zarah, not just a strange minhag. The Beish Yosef in Shulchan Aruch called it also a Minhag Shtus!
Some misrepresentations were made by the author which I would normally led slide if they wouldn’t contravene Halacha and mislead the public. The author makes a broad sweeping claim that: “If the destruction that is taking place serves a proper purpose, then it is not a violation of ba’al tashchis!” He follows this with examples when “destruction” is permitted. One example mentioned is an Ovel tearing his garment. n this I am compelled to note that the allowance for an Ovel to destroy his garment is limited and confined, as he is cautioned and forbidden from tearing in mourning any… Read more »
Yes there were opinions among gedolei haposkim that considered it a strange minhag but are you really going to pull that card? For hundreds of years Ashkenazi Jews, among them great tzadikim, have been using chickens. None of them were concerned about darkei haemori. One best ask him or herself where their opposition is coming from? An honest Quest to fulfill G-d’s wishes (as the Sefardic poskim you mention) or a reaction to the velt’s ridicule (which we should not be nispoel from like we’ve never been)
B”H
I think a lot of problems exist nowadays because people do not have a rav or ask him all their shailos. Also, because of haughtiness – I know better than you so I won’t do kaparos with a chicken or I’m not taking your chickens because I’m better than you. .Or, I’m scared as a chicken of holding a chicken or having it over my head. The Rebbe did kaporos – you can do it, too!.
U don’t have to pluck. all u do is give a little cut and pull off all the skin. Don’t waste time plucking
We have to call it what it is. This business of protecting animal became a real AVODA ZARA. Yes, we have the Mitzva of Tsar Bale Chaim and we must do it like all the other mitzvos. However, we are a little more higher than the Beheima. No ?
great response. Minhag Yisroel Torah He – can’t emphasize that enough in these troubled times
As the daughter of a shochet on shlichus, I agree that kapparos is a sacred minhag, one that I have seen my father go through much mesiras nefesh for, including giving up his chance to eat properly on erev Yom Kippur (or sleep for the whole week before). Of course, we do our best that all the chickens get shechted and kashered in time, but that has NOTHING to do with the fact that this is a holy minhag that must be kept at all costs if at all possible! And as Chabad chassidim, if the Rebbe did kapparos every… Read more »
And for those same hundreds of years, it hasn’t happened. Nor will it happen because of PETA and their ilk, or because of hypocritical posturing over issues that somehow are never a concern except when a minhag Yisroel is at stake…
Just saying the Jewish population in Europe before the war was bigger than the Jewish population is today in America, so for all those who try to say that there was less baal taschis done in the olden times because there was less people I think are mistaken.
My husband has in previous years bought home the chickens, we kasher them and then strip the skin off, I make shnitzel from the breast and use the rest for soup.
I am sure this must have been obvious to most readers, I am surprised not highlighted yet in the comments. It seems like there is an opportunity for a a shochet to offer a more upscale service, which has more guarantee on not wasting, charges more, and consequently gives the public a chance to give more tzedaka.
For hundreds of years, rabbis have been trying to ban kaparos. The Rashba, the Ramban, the Bais Yosef and more recently, the Aruch Hashulchan all wanted to ban kaparos. It’s time we do the sensible thing and do it on money!
so true, and so be it.
Gut yor to all regardless!
Well-said.
I wait so long on line to get a chicken.
Whoever wants to do money be my guest..
The lines will be shorter
“……..It was made by the Sadducees, the Haskalah movement, and it is the battle cry of every Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist ‘rabbi’. Needless to say, we do not adapt our holy customs to the times. ” I commend Rabbi Shochet and Eli Shechter for keeping it civil; this debate is a breath of fresh air. I take issue with Rabbi Shochot pulling the reform card. In our illustrious history, the biggest reformers were Chazal who rebuilt yiddishkeit after the churban Beis Ha’mikdosh from a Beis Hamikdosh based yiddishkeit (an entire chumash and 1/2 the mitzvos are not practicable today and… Read more »
who is your RUV?
people, should know it should not a secret, if that is what he advises.
as a RUV
“As to the rest of your claims that the Baal Taschis im talking about is not considered Baal Tashchis, we will have to agree to disagree.”
You are a schochet, not a rov. Bring a proof. Bring a source. It isn’t in your purview to agree or disagree about a din. You should know this.
Thank you for this. The way you brought in the haskala movement and saducees is to true that it actually scared me… My father is a shochet. He does kapparos with my brothers in the early hours of the morning, and shechts and plucks the chickens erev Yom kippur. My brothers help him.. if your boys are too young to help with the plucking, they are able to do kapparos a few days before.. in my family only the older boys that can help do it erev yk. A person can make enough time for whatever they think is important..… Read more »
Comment #18 took the words right out of my mouth….
K’siva v’chasima tovah!
Sruli
The fact is today the way we carry out kapporos it can border on chillul Hashem. Yes, you can say it is a minhag, our current practice of the minhag doesn’t violate baal tashchis etc… However, most of us don’t live on farms. Many don’t treat the chickens properly and I do worry about the previous articles assertion that many of these chickens don’t actually go to feeding poor people. I wouldn’t say it’s a waste but if I am going to go to battle (because there are plenty of critics of the minhag out there always ready to make… Read more »
שו”ע אדה”ז חושן משפט (חלק ו) הל’ שמירת הגוף ונפש ובל תשחית. שו”ת דבר אברהם ח”ב עמוד 176.
לקו”ש חי”ח עמוד 465
See the Alter Rebbe and sicha
What Sruli wrote in the response is true and correct that of there’s a slight benefit , than no issue of bal tashchis!
great article
explained all the points
We have done kapporos in our backyard here in crown heights, and brought a shochet to shecht. Then we kashered ourselves. No one plucks chickens outside of a plant nowadays, you just give the whole skin a pull and in a few seconds it’s off.
Maybe the Rebbe insured that it would be kashered?
The attitude of “if the Rebe did it, we’re doing it” is a very commonly pulled card but sometimes an extremely backwards argument.
Since when has judaism, allowed animal sacrifices ? (in today’s era where we do not have the bais hamikdash , and korbanos) If you shecht a bird , and say that the life of the bird should atone for your sins,, and then throw the animal in the trash that sounds like a blood sacrifice. sounds more pagan influence than anything else. i sincerely ask, is there any source for this sort of sacrifice in today’s era? where we can kill an animal, then not use it as food but simply throw it in the garbage. this really really does… Read more »
What seems right doesn’t matter. In this instance it is not about our sensitivities but about what Halacha says. The author makes a strong argument about this not being Baal Tashchis. Unless you bring a Torah source to counter it, your feelings mean zilch, nada, bubkis and zero. Sorry 🙂
You missed the author’s point. The reason kaparos is not a violation of Baal Tashchis goes back to the Halachic definition of Baal Tashchis to begin with regardless of whether the poskim mention it in regard to kaparos or not. I also address this to Eli Schechter’s rebuttal in #6: the author makes a sound argument proving that al pi Halacha, anything used for a good purpose is not Baal Tashchis. There is no ” agreeing to disagree” unless you argue on the grounds of Torah why he’s wrong.
Another rebuttal to the point.
Love reading your clear and thought out articles.
When I was a kid we would do “kaporos” take them to the “shochet” bring back the chiken to kosher.. Have the first Shudah. go to the Rabbe To get lakach… and then have the second sudah later on. NO “ball taschis problem. NO Koshring Problem.
Who Is making all the problems
Very well said!
A healthy debate is great, and I like the respect which the two of you are showing each other, and Torah.
However, it’s hard for me to equate the nasi’s clothes and bed to a live being. Killing a chicken and having it go to waste seems downright inappropriate. For now, I’m going to stick with kapores on money.
The author claims that since the poskim don’t mention the issue of Bal tashchis in this case, it must not be a problem. This is a specious argument. The reason the poskim don’t mention it, is that in the olden days, it would never occur to anyone to throw out a perfectly kosher chicken just because they couldn’t be bothered to kasher it. Food was simply too hard to come by. And every Baal habuste knew how to kasher meat in their own homes. In fact, even if the one doing the kaparos isn’t oiver on Bal tashchis, the organizers… Read more »
Just because they don’t reference ba’al tashchis you draw the conclusion that ba’al fascia doesn’t apply??? Maybe they didn’t have thousands of chickens being slaughtered en masse like they do nowadays – because their numbers were far smaller and they didn’t have that much $$$ to spend so freely. If they were lucky they had 1 or 2 chickens a family.
Besides where is your source for the “psak” that kapores should be done even if the chickens are thrown out?
The Rebbe did kaparos, we as HIS chassidim do kaparos!!!! This was the Rebbes minhag, we as HIS chassidim follow accordingly! !!
I am going to address a point you made. You are claiming (quote) “I have watched the process done many times and it does not take nearly that long – unless one lacks major experience” I would like you to realize that if someone does not own a commercial plucking machine, then it takes a very long time to pluck, gut, clean and kasher a bird. Multiply this by all the members of my family, and that equals hours of work. I invite you to come to my home and show me a quicker way. As to the rest of… Read more »
Again, you hit it out of the park…
I especially love how you start “Before I begin, I want to ask the author’s forgiveness in advance if I come across as harsh or condescending” duo I get all ready to read a good sharp witted schochet (as in shchita) response… And then a nice calm sweet eloquent response…
Very impressed
Chaim Teleshevsky
Knocked the ball out of the park
Finally an answer to all those “I don’t like it so it must be against Halacha” arguments
Kol Hakavod and thank you for sharing important and not so usually heard Halachos.
Thank you for enlightening & clarifying the truth for us. A m’chaya, Yasher Choach, Hatzlacha Rabba!
Thank you for your response. I hope to be elevated at Kapporos
I totally agree with this article.
Stam…
isn’t the whole idea of kapporos that the chicken is sacrificing itself for the person, not the other way around… people sacrificing themselves for chickens 😂