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Tuesday, 12 Kislev, 5780
  |  December 10, 2019

Here is What Kaporos Is Not

Response op-ed: Why is it that no posek mentions the concern of ba'al tashchis as a reason not to do kaporos on chickens? Full Story

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Stam...
Guest
Stam...

I totally agree with this article.
Stam…
isn’t the whole idea of kapporos that the chicken is sacrificing itself for the person, not the other way around… people sacrificing themselves for chickens 😂

Chicken
Guest
Chicken

Thank you for your response. I hope to be elevated at Kapporos

Baruch Hashem
Guest
Baruch Hashem

Thank you for enlightening & clarifying the truth for us. A m’chaya, Yasher Choach, Hatzlacha Rabba!

Wow
Guest
Wow

Knocked the ball out of the park
Finally an answer to all those “I don’t like it so it must be against Halacha” arguments
Kol Hakavod and thank you for sharing important and not so usually heard Halachos.

Yasher koach Reb Sruli...
Guest
Yasher koach Reb Sruli...

Again, you hit it out of the park…

I especially love how you start “Before I begin, I want to ask the author’s forgiveness in advance if I come across as harsh or condescending” duo I get all ready to read a good sharp witted schochet (as in shchita) response… And then a nice calm sweet eloquent response…

Very impressed
Chaim Teleshevsky

To Sruli Shochet from Eli Shechter
Guest
To Sruli Shochet from Eli Shechter

I am going to address a point you made. You are claiming (quote) “I have watched the process done many times and it does not take nearly that long – unless one lacks major experience” I would like you to realize that if someone does not own a commercial plucking machine, then it takes a very long time to pluck, gut, clean and kasher a bird. Multiply this by all the members of my family, and that equals hours of work. I invite you to come to my home and show me a quicker way. As to the rest of… Read more »

i will repeat
Guest
i will repeat

The Rebbe did kaparos, we as HIS chassidim do kaparos!!!! This was the Rebbes minhag, we as HIS chassidim follow accordingly! !!

Questionable sources
Guest
Questionable sources

Just because they don’t reference ba’al tashchis you draw the conclusion that ba’al fascia doesn’t apply??? Maybe they didn’t have thousands of chickens being slaughtered en masse like they do nowadays – because their numbers were far smaller and they didn’t have that much $$$ to spend so freely. If they were lucky they had 1 or 2 chickens a family.
Besides where is your source for the “psak” that kapores should be done even if the chickens are thrown out?

False argument
Guest
False argument

The author claims that since the poskim don’t mention the issue of Bal tashchis in this case, it must not be a problem. This is a specious argument. The reason the poskim don’t mention it, is that in the olden days, it would never occur to anyone to throw out a perfectly kosher chicken just because they couldn’t be bothered to kasher it. Food was simply too hard to come by. And every Baal habuste knew how to kasher meat in their own homes. In fact, even if the one doing the kaparos isn’t oiver on Bal tashchis, the organizers… Read more »

Nice response; I'll stick with kapores on money
Guest
Nice response; I'll stick with kapores on money

A healthy debate is great, and I like the respect which the two of you are showing each other, and Torah.

However, it’s hard for me to equate the nasi’s clothes and bed to a live being. Killing a chicken and having it go to waste seems downright inappropriate. For now, I’m going to stick with kapores on money.

A British Nephew
Guest
A British Nephew

Very well said!

I remember...
Guest
I remember...

When I was a kid we would do “kaporos” take them to the “shochet” bring back the chiken to kosher.. Have the first Shudah. go to the Rabbe To get lakach… and then have the second sudah later on. NO “ball taschis problem. NO Koshring Problem.
Who Is making all the problems

Thank you
Guest
Thank you

Another rebuttal to the point.
Love reading your clear and thought out articles.

To #9, Reb Aryeh
Guest
To #9, Reb Aryeh

You missed the author’s point. The reason kaparos is not a violation of Baal Tashchis goes back to the Halachic definition of Baal Tashchis to begin with regardless of whether the poskim mention it in regard to kaparos or not. I also address this to Eli Schechter’s rebuttal in #6: the author makes a sound argument proving that al pi Halacha, anything used for a good purpose is not Baal Tashchis. There is no ” agreeing to disagree” unless you argue on the grounds of Torah why he’s wrong.

To #10
Guest
To #10

What seems right doesn’t matter. In this instance it is not about our sensitivities but about what Halacha says. The author makes a strong argument about this not being Baal Tashchis. Unless you bring a Torah source to counter it, your feelings mean zilch, nada, bubkis and zero. Sorry 🙂

animal sacrifice
Guest
animal sacrifice

Since when has judaism, allowed animal sacrifices ? (in today’s era where we do not have the bais hamikdash , and korbanos) If you shecht a bird , and say that the life of the bird should atone for your sins,, and then throw the animal in the trash that sounds like a blood sacrifice. sounds more pagan influence than anything else. i sincerely ask, is there any source for this sort of sacrifice in today’s era? where we can kill an animal, then not use it as food but simply throw it in the garbage. this really really does… Read more »

To 7
Guest
To 7

Maybe the Rebbe insured that it would be kashered?
The attitude of “if the Rebe did it, we’re doing it” is a very commonly pulled card but sometimes an extremely backwards argument.

Plucking
Guest
Plucking

We have done kapporos in our backyard here in crown heights, and brought a shochet to shecht. Then we kashered ourselves. No one plucks chickens outside of a plant nowadays, you just give the whole skin a pull and in a few seconds it’s off.

moshe der g
Guest
moshe der g

great article
explained all the points

To #6 and #9
Guest
To #6 and #9

שו”ע אדה”ז חושן משפט (חלק ו) הל’ שמירת הגוף ונפש ובל תשחית. שו”ת דבר אברהם ח”ב עמוד 176.
לקו”ש חי”ח עמוד 465
See the Alter Rebbe and sicha
What Sruli wrote in the response is true and correct that of there’s a slight benefit , than no issue of bal tashchis!

Yes but still...
Guest
Yes but still...

The fact is today the way we carry out kapporos it can border on chillul Hashem. Yes, you can say it is a minhag, our current practice of the minhag doesn’t violate baal tashchis etc… However, most of us don’t live on farms. Many don’t treat the chickens properly and I do worry about the previous articles assertion that many of these chickens don’t actually go to feeding poor people. I wouldn’t say it’s a waste but if I am going to go to battle (because there are plenty of critics of the minhag out there always ready to make… Read more »

Sruli Schochet to Eli Shechter
Guest
Sruli Schochet to Eli Shechter

Comment #18 took the words right out of my mouth….

K’siva v’chasima tovah!

Sruli

Great response
Guest
Great response

Thank you for this. The way you brought in the haskala movement and saducees is to true that it actually scared me… My father is a shochet. He does kapparos with my brothers in the early hours of the morning, and shechts and plucks the chickens erev Yom kippur. My brothers help him.. if your boys are too young to help with the plucking, they are able to do kapparos a few days before.. in my family only the older boys that can help do it erev yk. A person can make enough time for whatever they think is important..… Read more »

to Eli Shechter
Guest
to Eli Shechter

“As to the rest of your claims that the Baal Taschis im talking about is not considered Baal Tashchis, we will have to agree to disagree.”

You are a schochet, not a rov. Bring a proof. Bring a source. It isn’t in your purview to agree or disagree about a din. You should know this.

To # 9
Guest
To # 9

who is your RUV?
people, should know it should not a secret, if that is what he advises.
as a RUV

Back to the Reform red herring
Guest
Back to the Reform red herring

“……..It was made by the Sadducees, the Haskalah movement, and it is the battle cry of every Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist ‘rabbi’. Needless to say, we do not adapt our holy customs to the times. ” I commend Rabbi Shochet and Eli Shechter for keeping it civil; this debate is a breath of fresh air. I take issue with Rabbi Shochot pulling the reform card. In our illustrious history, the biggest reformers were Chazal who rebuilt yiddishkeit after the churban Beis Ha’mikdosh from a Beis Hamikdosh based yiddishkeit (an entire chumash and 1/2 the mitzvos are not practicable today and… Read more »

Why the back and forth?
Guest
Why the back and forth?

I wait so long on line to get a chicken.
Whoever wants to do money be my guest..
The lines will be shorter

Thank you for this!
Guest
Thank you for this!

Well-said.

#10 simply said and truth
Guest
#10 simply said and truth

so true, and so be it.

Gut yor to all regardless!

Darkei H'amori
Guest
Darkei H'amori

For hundreds of years, rabbis have been trying to ban kaparos. The Rashba, the Ramban, the Bais Yosef and more recently, the Aruch Hashulchan all wanted to ban kaparos. It’s time we do the sensible thing and do it on money!

irony of names shochet versus shechter
Guest
irony of names shochet versus shechter

I am sure this must have been obvious to most readers, I am surprised not highlighted yet in the comments. It seems like there is an opportunity for a a shochet to offer a more upscale service, which has more guarantee on not wasting, charges more, and consequently gives the public a chance to give more tzedaka.

Chicken
Guest
Chicken

My husband has in previous years bought home the chickens, we kasher them and then strip the skin off, I make shnitzel from the breast and use the rest for soup.

Just saying..
Guest
Just saying..

Just saying the Jewish population in Europe before the war was bigger than the Jewish population is today in America, so for all those who try to say that there was less baal taschis done in the olden times because there was less people I think are mistaken.

To #30
Guest
To #30

And for those same hundreds of years, it hasn’t happened. Nor will it happen because of PETA and their ilk, or because of hypocritical posturing over issues that somehow are never a concern except when a minhag Yisroel is at stake…

Agreed
Guest
Agreed

As the daughter of a shochet on shlichus, I agree that kapparos is a sacred minhag, one that I have seen my father go through much mesiras nefesh for, including giving up his chance to eat properly on erev Yom Kippur (or sleep for the whole week before). Of course, we do our best that all the chickens get shechted and kashered in time, but that has NOTHING to do with the fact that this is a holy minhag that must be kept at all costs if at all possible! And as Chabad chassidim, if the Rebbe did kapparos every… Read more »

thank you
Guest
thank you

great response. Minhag Yisroel Torah He – can’t emphasize that enough in these troubled times

Stop the bluff
Guest
Stop the bluff

We have to call it what it is. This business of protecting animal became a real AVODA ZARA. Yes, we have the Mitzva of Tsar Bale Chaim and we must do it like all the other mitzvos. However, we are a little more higher than the Beheima. No ?

To #6
Guest
To #6

U don’t have to pluck. all u do is give a little cut and pull off all the skin. Don’t waste time plucking

Do people have a rav?
Guest
Do people have a rav?

B”H
I think a lot of problems exist nowadays because people do not have a rav or ask him all their shailos. Also, because of haughtiness – I know better than you so I won’t do kaparos with a chicken or I’m not taking your chickens because I’m better than you. .Or, I’m scared as a chicken of holding a chicken or having it over my head. The Rebbe did kaporos – you can do it, too!.

Darker Haemori?!
Guest
Darker Haemori?!

Yes there were opinions among gedolei haposkim that considered it a strange minhag but are you really going to pull that card? For hundreds of years Ashkenazi Jews, among them great tzadikim, have been using chickens. None of them were concerned about darkei haemori. One best ask him or herself where their opposition is coming from? An honest Quest to fulfill G-d’s wishes (as the Sefardic poskim you mention) or a reaction to the velt’s ridicule (which we should not be nispoel from like we’ve never been)

K from BMG
Guest
K from BMG

Some misrepresentations were made by the author which I would normally led slide if they wouldn’t contravene Halacha and mislead the public. The author makes a broad sweeping claim that: “If the destruction that is taking place serves a proper purpose, then it is not a violation of ba’al tashchis!” He follows this with examples when “destruction” is permitted. One example mentioned is an Ovel tearing his garment. n this I am compelled to note that the allowance for an Ovel to destroy his garment is limited and confined, as he is cautioned and forbidden from tearing in mourning any… Read more »

To # 40
Guest
To # 40

You are wrong. Many Gedolei Haposkim considered it Darkei Amoreh and Avodah Zarah, not just a strange minhag. The Beish Yosef in Shulchan Aruch called it also a Minhag Shtus!

To #41
Guest
To #41

There are many examples of baal tashchis that can be construed either way. You cannot pick and choose to your liking. There has to be a proper purpose involved. For example, the Gemoro Shabbos that you cite has a whole back and forth about if, when and how displays of anger are permissible. Anger in any form is generally frowned upon and can be displayed in other manners. Therefore breaking the vessels, to emphasize your anger, serves no real purpose. The Rebbe in Likutei Sichos Sec 18 pg 465-466 explains the concept beautifully, based on an inference from Shulchan Aruch… Read more »

K of BMG - continued
Guest
K of BMG - continued

A second misleading statement in this article: “The author [of earlier Response article] claims that kaporos long ago was a calm and serene setting, whereas now it’s all-out chaos.” The articles tries to refute this assertion by stating: “He [the Chayay Aom] was worried that being that there are so many people there doing kaporos and the shochtim will be up all night slaughtering the chickens, he was concerned that it would lead to the ritual knives going bad and people potentially eating nevailot (a kosher animal not slaughtered properly) which is obviously a huge sin.” Therefore, the author logically… Read more »

To #44
Guest
To #44

Two things: 1) You may want to research Jewish populations in large cities pre-WWII. This is not just about shtetel’s, but about all cities, including the very many large ones that had Jewish populations in the many hundreds of thousands. 2) You may want to look in the Hilchos Shechita sefer called Simlah Chadasha (18:12 under Yom Chof) that specifically discusses concessions that can be made by the shochtim on erev-Yom Kippus in order to accomidate the sheer volume of chickens that were being processed for kaporos. Thus, there is no inference by the author. It is as close to… Read more »

Oh thank you, I believed the other article...
Guest
Oh thank you, I believed the other article...

The previous article really made me second guess everything about kappores. THANK YOU so much for writing this to get us all back on track!

I agree with #41 and #44
Guest
I agree with #41 and #44

K from BMG makes 2 powerful points. Just because a person have a benefit from the destruction – it doesn’t justify hashchosa. Also, the ratio of shochtim in a community was higher than it is today. Thanks for pointing it out. I felt the article was wrong but couldn’t put my finger it till you did. Agreed!

To "k of BMG"
Guest
To "k of BMG"

Learn the sources first mentioned in #20.
Without prior knowledge of such (which your comments demonstrate) you can’t really say anything…

Thank you # 43 and Sruli,
Guest
Thank you # 43 and Sruli,

For using your G-d given knowledge & abilities to help clarify the issues. And for those of us who have the heart to know…….

From Eli Shechter' wife re skinning birds
Guest
From Eli Shechter' wife re skinning birds

My name is Miriam, Eli is my husband. I am not getting involved in any part of this debate except to clarify one thing. This is to all the people who don’t even know my husband at all, yet still feel quite comfortable insinuating that he is incompetent and does not even know how to skin a chicken FYI, skinning a fat broiler is a whole different ballgame from skinning the lean , local chickens that we raise. It is NOT easy getting the skin off them. So , before you judge someone, try to think that it is entirely… Read more »

Double mitzvah
Guest
Double mitzvah

We buy a chicken from an organization, and then donate the chicken to an organization that can use it to feed people. Why keep it?

#42
Guest
#42

The Ri shon LeTzion beautifully explains that

Posts
Guest
Posts

It is a pity that people are throwing Halacha around Mentioning poskim and even the Rebbe The Rebbe had his own Shochet The Rebbe kaporah was one Easy to Kosher kehalocho To throw chickens in ocean is illegal and undeniably forbidden If public Kapporus can be organised to execute(no pun intended) with all hiddurim we expect from our shechittos and the chickens are consumed by whoever then the objection of the SA can be discarded as the minhag emanated well before the SA and as those who know the Hakdomo of the Beis Yosseph will recognise the objection fails in… Read more »

# 18
Guest
# 18

With respect you are not right
I shechted in back gardens
Had four Romanian girls pluck
Waited till opened made bedikas hadakin checked lungs etc
Did tzomos (five chickens; no big deal) and went off on my merry way

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