By a mother
While the snow melts in New York and many other cities around the world, the hearts and minds of many girls and their parents are already six months ahead as they eagerly await word as to which seminary they were or were not accepted to.
This is not another op-ed about the mounting costs of seminary and the infamous selection process. This is an open plea to parents to stop for a moment and ponder. When your daughter boards her plane in six months time, will you know where you are sending your daughter? Are you familiar with the policies of the seminary you’re desperately trying to get into?
The seminary guidebooks get longer each year with more and more detailed guidelines about skirt lengths and necklines. New rules are being made about shoes and sweatshirts. Kosher phones are the phone of choice in some seminaries while internet is only allowed once a week in others. The new rules are arising out of the changing times. Truth be told, if you want to attend a seminary (or yeshiva for that matter) you need to respect the rules and take them seriously. If you don’t want to, don’t go.
But where are the rules for the hanhalos of the seminaries themselves? What are the guidelines and educational standards in place with regards to the staff that they employ to teach and mold the mind and souls of our girls? Should a young man be teaching a class of young women? Should male mashpiim be farbrenging until all hours of the night and then to be left alone with one or two girls as the others fall away? Should men be the ones to speak to young women about the particulars of tznius, marriage and other sensitive and personal topics? While Chabad has never gone to an extreme like other communities have in eliminating all conversation between men and women, we obviously need to know where to draw a line.
Are there girls (maybe even your daughters) walking around with stories that they are afraid to reveal because they are ashamed of themselves or for others, and how that might affect their shidduch prospects? Let no one convince themselves that their daughter or any particular mashpia is beyond the reach of the yetzer hara. Ein apitropus liarayos and everyone has got a weak moment!!
Wake up and smell the coffee!! Every day counts and as parents we must make our voices heard. You have a right and responsibility to demand that there is accountability and transparency on the part of the seminaries as to how these issues are handled. Shouldn’t the $$$$ that you are spending include this?
Note to people who wish to comment: Please do not post anything about particular people or incidents. Refraining from Loshon Horah and Rechilus, keeps you and us from committing aveiros and prevents pain from being inflicted onto others.
I get your point but mr./mrs. , i think you’re exagerating…
Farbreingen is not SHMOOZING , and in sem there are many interesting and important classes with great teachers, which doesn’t mean roaming (just BTW not every girl has to go to a foreign country for sem).
If that’s what your child goes for, well believe me, she will find the way to do it in front of your nose without you realising it.
I’m not of the opinion that sem is a MUST but c’mon it’s not as bad as you describe it
how old are you ? you sound like you need to grow up a bit and know the real realities of life
Do you think a seminary diploma is helpful in getting a teaching job and going on Shlichus or will most girls be judged on an individual basis?
allow your child to drive without training
allow your child to roam a foreign country
allow your child to sit and shmooze till 3 am with a drunk man
Allow her to pressure you to do something unnecessary, perhaps stupid and dangerous because everyone is doing it
Everyone seems to have complaints about what their daughter did.. how “chassidish” they were and then…they went to sem and they were just subconsiously pulled into a penetrating force to sit in the back of busses and wtvr. with grls…. hang out with boys… dont blame ur issues on anyone else but urselves. noone makes you do anything. no place will make you do anything…unless in general, people do make you do things which is a whole dif issue…and just as a side point.. i bet these issues didnt start when you got in that plane but b4. and if… Read more »
Don’t send your daughter to Israel. Don’t send her to any sem. Don’t send her to high school either. In fact, don’t send your kids to any school- do you know how high the rate of molesting is in elementary boy schools in CH?! And it would be even smarter to not allow her to leave the house. (She may be hit by a bus and who is to say that physical damage is worse than emotional injury?). Oh, and before we forget- don’t allow her to leave her bed in the morning- she may trip over her negel vasser,… Read more »
TO #38 PLEASE TELL US WHICH SEM has no mashke for fabrengeners?!
Why must the girls go away for Shabbos. Is the Sem unable to afford the Shabbos accomodations
may be theyneed some financial support, so girls do not need
tp beg for food for Shabbos
Hatzlocho
I know u!!!!!
U r my classmate!!!
Go…..
We’ve have hosted a lot of sem girls over the past 8 years when we lived on a yishuv and had a larger house. Somehow our name and number made it on to a list of hosts that was handed down year to year. I was always concerned that out of the 5 or 6 different seminaries we received guests from only one ever called in advance to check about kashrut. I know for a fact that several girls were hosted at homes in our community with extremely doubtful kashrut or even if the families were totally shomer Shabbat. We… Read more »
I say, teach them well at home when they r young, give them all the right tools and trust them that they will make the right decisions. yes, it’s a scary world out there, but i trust my girl, and i know she is ready to be on her own.
and stay in touch, all the time.
to number 140- that sounds very nice and i am not saying every single seminary is like that. what i am saying is you have to be careful that just because its a “good seminary” doesn’t mean everything going on us 100% kosher. and everyone has to be aware of that. i want to add that in israel there is alot of tourists and my daughter also broached on the subject of when the girls are by the kosel or in a popular place with alot of tourists, some of the girls are not acting in an appropriate manner and… Read more »
I was 4 years in BMC Seminary in StAgath, and i must say that NONE of the above terrible things mentioned ever happened!
Rebetzen Carlebach is the most amazing mashpia and director and makes sure everything is according to Alacha. she inspired me so much that i accepted to be a dorm counselor for her for 2 more years. i have seen girls growing, improving and shining with the love and the learning that they are given. thank you Rebetzen Carlebach KEEP UP YOUR GOOD WORK!
I agree that some mothers are sending their daughters to seminary thinking they are such good girls, will follow all the rules and come back a better person. Do you really know what goes through your daughter’s mind when she is anticipating a year away from home. Besides for missing their parents of course – some of them just might be a little excited to start being able to do things they cant at home.. my daughter is currently in seminary in israel- a good seminary and shes a good girl. she called me a few weeks ago almost crying… Read more »
“And especially nowadays that the plague of college has gone wild.” It really upsets me how close-minded people have become. Who gave you the perfect interpretation handbook of the Rebbe’s words to specific people?
the whole selection process as u put so elouquently is so patheticly disgusting, it sad. perfectly good girls are turned away becuase they maybe have a brother who has issues with his avodas hashem, which have nothing to do with the girl herself. and ur avarage or even less than girl gets accepted b/c of her ‘geje’ liniage. about galavating around israle, im personaly against it, but if ppl wanna do it, gezunterheit, second of all, b4 u start worrying about rabbis farbrengening with girls, worry about our own crown hieghts which has enough child abusers of its own. also,… Read more »
as paying consumers,and paying $18,000.00 for 9 months at the most,it is hi time for parents to question both the ruchniyus and gashmiyus of our seminaries.the men farbrenging alone with girls ,late at night,with mashke,is well known ,but no one says a word .Every parent is afraid that their daughter will not be accepted,or their next daughter wont be.(and then how will they get married??)
loll!!!!! lovee ur ideaa!!
I teach awareness and life skills that all future wives and mothers need. The girls are enriched by many of the sem classes and experiences. . Sichos, Parsha ,Pirkei Avos produce fine young women.
MEN teachers do often contribute valuably, but the rules of tzniut and yichud have to be rigorously applied – for everyone’s sake.
COL, please contact seminaries and ask them to respond.
Firstly, getting a ged is exremely easy, and can be done over a summer. Secondly, if you get credits from a yeshivah, then a highschool diploma doesn’t matter – nobody will ask for it. I know from experience. Thirdly, that’s a small issue in the larger picture – not enough for a role reversal.
to 123 – on COL? Never!
Hahahah u rock!!
best seminary around!
Perhaps young bucherim can give shiurim and then we can match off a seminary girl and create shidduchim.
A multi tasking approach to this issue
My daughter was did not get approved for two ”top’ seminaries and had to settle for a less glamorous one. She was very upset and so was I. Now I am counting my blessings. Even though my daughter is an excellent girl and would never engage in the shenanigans that seem to be rife in these elite schools, I am glad she was spared this bad role modeling. She ended up actually learning a lot in the less glamorous seminary, but always felt she missed out on the excitement. Now that I know that part of this ‘excitement’ was very… Read more »
men should not be teaching girls late at night especially with maske. we need to be more careful
Simple. Since guys dont get a high school deploma it’s easier for girls to go to college so that’s what usually happens
thats why im glad i sent my son to holon. where such role models like efraim duchman and zalman stillerman set the tone for the bochurim, and none of these problems happen
in sem we had farbrengers-very respected ones- who would finish an entire bottle of smirnoff by 3am still farbrenging and then start dancing and acting like a lunatic. i left these farbrengens so disgusted and never came to hear them again.
we once had a farbrenger who refused mashke saying it wasn’t tznius to drink in front of girls and i respect him so much.
TO (102) 114 Well i’m glad to hear that there still are some reasonable people 🙂
it would be nice for COL to do some real reporting and get someone from the Sem to RESPOND. THIS IS TERRIBLE STUFF that we are reading!!
I heard about this op-Ed and not believing it till I actually read all this!
Are you kidding me ? Being an average member of Lubavitch who went to sem 18 years ago and to a chabad high school I never had a male teacher farbreng, neither would I have sat at one. Did mothers know about this?? Why was there nothing done about this??? I am truly shocked that parents aloud their daughters to remain in an environment where male staff are sitting with girls with vodka? They should have pulled them out and demanded a refund.
if you dont approve, then marry someone who will get a different job (and possibly go to college). why is your solution for YOU to go to college?
to 117 – the Rebbe didn’t believe in career kollelniks. When did women receive the obligation to support their families? If supplementary income is necessary, then sure. But they never did, and still do not, have the obligation to be the primary breadwinner.
i was once by a farbrengen where the rabbi kept his head down and would not look at the girls. i was very impressed. that being said, i think its important for girls to learn chassidus but sem should also teach practical halacha that is not usually ex: situations that come up on shlichus and real bayis yehudi etc
To whoever claims college is a good thing, that makes no sense. Here people are complaining about seminaries and you honestly feel college is a safe place for your daughters?? Get real. College is a horrible untznius environment and there are so many subjects taught that mamash confuse kids….and it does not matter if it is only a college for girls. The atmosphere is not right. In that case sem is better!!!
college is a good thing, so that you can have a job and make some money while your husband learns all day
mashkeh is needed
i am 108
most men in crown heights are teachers or rabbis and dont make a big salary and defintily not enough to support a big family! so yes a college degree does help!
105 – I’m a guy. i do know about the pressure, but i’m just saying many guys won’t hold it against you – including me. 108 – if you’re going to college, obviously one like stern is preferable. however, i don’t think girls should have the attitude that it’s their responsibility to support the family – halachah requires men to. true, you may need to for a year while your husband is in colel, but a multi-year degree isn’t the best investment for a 1-2 year job. 110 – the Rebbe also gave Rabbi Schochet special permission to study things… Read more »
I took the bus every off shabbos to jeru, and some coincided with the sems’ off shabbosim.
seminaries must be more careful!
seminary can be an amazing experience, but it is not for everyone! I have a daughter who have gone to seminary and gained alot and really enjoyed it, and the other that stayed nearby to do sem programs. it was’nt for her.
Rabbis Manis Friedman and Shloime Majeski teach single girls/single women/married women, and in Minnesota it was always very late at night. They did this in front of females not dressed modestly, not asking modest questions, etc. For some men, they were given the kochos to do this. Hopefully they still are given it,
U obviously didn’t take any buses around the country and if u did it was not when any sem. Had a shabbos off
why is it a problem if they go to college like sterns? is it so wrong to get a degree and actually be something in chabad and make money so u dont have to be on food stamps and medicare! most men learn all day when they first get married who will support them? the women have to and it doesnt hurt to have a college degree!!!
It is an opportunity to clearly compile yichud laws. It is essential and can prevent trouble. It pertains to male teachers
In high school and seminaries , girls in chabad houses, secretaries in offices, interviews by matchmakers, businessmen.
It is a very important issue for bnos Israel and sholom basis.
How about at our very own Shabbos tables. Men at the table and at work places. Women at the Shabbos table and at work places. If a man or woman has problems he will be searching outside his/her home for extra excitement. We have to watch our spouses and keep on talking about what to be careful about inside our homes and outside our homes.
No i’m not talking about Girls who go to college. Unfortunately many many girls are judged by sem issue. I don’t know who you are, and if you’re a boy it’s possible that ypu think like that because you don’t know what sem pressure means (not in an offensive way, it’s normal :). ) And if you are a girl, well i’m happy you never had these kinds of problems, and maybe you don’t know girls who live/d this. It’s not your fault 🙂 But i’m just telling you that is the way it is in many cases. Yes maybe… Read more »
“women are busy at home with the children BH. That is where they belong”
And the kitchen is a woman’s natural habitat.
I think this is getting out of hand… Seminary is not a waste of time and money…. Is there bad things going on, yes, will seminaries change, I blieve so. When I was just in NY for the kinus my brother asked me ” why does the laidies kinus need to bring in men speakers?” The answer is very simple .men are more learnered , have personal stories of the Rebbe, and are a lot more real and less full of themself. Can girls learn from Men, absolutly with proper changes in the Seminaries as in new rules.
if they use that time to go to college, then its a problem. But, if they do good stuff meanwhile, then there are plenty of people who wont hold it against them.
I’m #76, and yes I did go to Tzeirei.
oh! Please! you had problems before you got on the plane!
Beautifully put.
To all of you wonderful commenters:
Do you think a good, chassidishe girl who didn’t go to seminary but is very learned, will have a harder time getting a teaching position or Shlichus job?
Yes many people are closed minded and base their choises for shiduchim on ‘if the girl went to sem’ which in my eyes is not fair because being close to the shiduch age i see many things that maybe an adult doesn’t notice. There are girls who didn’t go to sem (for ex. Money reasons) yes they are GREAT chassidish girls and everything you want, and girls who went to famous sems are not that ‘holy’ and do stuff just to show off. Chas veshalom, it doesn’t mean that whoever goes to good sems is like this, don’t come to… Read more »
But some of my sisters did. Baruch Hashem they had only positive experiences. Everyone has a different temperament and what’s good for one person may be not so good(or even harmful Chas v’shalom) for the other. Each person needs to be judged on a case to case bases, taking everything in to account and viewing the person as a whole being. Not going to seminary and going to seminary both have maalos and also challenges. Baruch Hashem I made the right choice for me and my sisters made the right choice for themselves. And I’m very greatful to Hashem that… Read more »
Let’s call it for what it is The reason why girls go to seminary is pressure, pressure and pressure. The sad part is that the parents fall for it as well. If we’re being honest here, i think we can say that roughly 90% of girls going to seminary today’s parents literally cannot afford it. True, we can convince ourselves how much the girls are learning and truly finding themselves (thats a whole other discussion that I won’t go into now) but at the end of the day 20 g’s is 20 g’s and if you have two daughters make… Read more »
so u think the essence of chabad chassidus is drinking mashke with rabbis, and underage girls and boys getting drunk along with the rabbis their mentors?! u dont need to drink to farbreng, and rabbis having mashke with the underage students is not an example that is supposed to be set, this is why there can be an AA meeting on almost every crown heights street!
there is no point to seminary all these parents that are sending their children to seminary are wasting their money and their childrens time. all the girls do there is gain weight, and have fun its a year long vacation for them! if they wanted to do something after high school they can get a job and make money instead of wasting money and time
1) Why do Seminaries need male teachers? Because it’s very hard to find female teachers who are as learned as the men. It’s not that there are no such women. But there are fewer of them. And, generally, women are busier with their families and don’t always have time to teach. 2) The Yetzer Horah never goes on vacation. 3) That being said, if the right standards are set, this does not preclude men giving shiurim or even farbrenging. In my opinion. The right standards are a strict adherence to the laws of Yichud. And generally appropriate tznius behaviour. The… Read more »
excuse me for asking what the point of being chassidish is if our children don’t know chassidus? particularly for the BT movement i can say that farbrengs and chassidus, at least for me, are the reason I became chabad, and the reason i went to seminary in yerushalayim. was there mashka, yes, could i have left the seminary and gotten mashka on my own if i wanted, yes…so which atmosphere do you think is better? one supervised by a rabbi or not? and please…how little faith are you putting in the rebbeim that you think a few shots of mashka… Read more »
Thank you to the author and to COL for publishing this wonderful, and sadly true, article. So many people nowadays are afraid to “rock the boat” and a dose of reality, however unfortunate it has become, is the first step to improvement…
to 45
I m sorry you understood it that way, i did not mean it that way. I didnt specify.
45 i agree if college is AFTER marriage.
NOT right after High school.
Before marriage the views and values have still to have sharpened and whichever enviroment WILL affect them.
The subject being seminary year I was talking about the same year.
And Seminary can implememt in their curriculum more tools that to serve the future, agree
my thoughts exactly!!
there is no point to seminary all these parents that are sending their children to seminary are wasting their money and their childrens time. all the girls do there is gain weight, and have fun its a year long vacation for them! if they wanted to do something after high school they can get a job and make money instead of wasting money and time
When u say u are from yeshiva in tzfas and u don’t what the guy was talking about with a dvar malchus u r probably not from tzeirei hashluchim and there is big diffrence I am talking from experience
women are busy at home with the children BH. That is where they belong, if you will to portray the ultimate Jewish Woman example. At least the ones I would love to spend hours with, aren’t available
In response to the void in ours, and other communities to the state of חנוך הבנות post high school, CyberSem has been founded. You have surely seen the ads on COLive, and in the Neshei Newsletter. With the approval of Rabbinic authority, CyberSem stands to fill this void with its proposed wide range of courses. We can offer even more courses than a land based seminary, because instructors and content experts can be used from around the globe. No matter where you are, at home, on shlichus, or others, you can still continue your kodesh studies from the hashkafa of… Read more »
If this is an issue that a large public cares about (and judging by the comments, it seems it is), perhaps we should be petitioning the seminaries or any such schools that employ male teachers. If they want our children as students, they’ll have to hear us.
and I saw the same as 80 and 81.
Nobody is saying all men must stop teaching and farbrenging. Just no mashke, not too late, and not with just a few girls left. Also, there should be an age requirement – like 50 y.o. minimum.
the bochurim always sit towards the front of that bus and the seminary girls sit in the back. if you sat down with them, then you asked for it. i’ve never seen that happen with anyone who wasn’t already sitting with them and looking for trouble.
I’m an american tzfas bochur too. Never happened to me and I’ve never seen it happen. Far fetched. I have seen GUYS go over to girls to strike up a conversation on a bus, but never girls approaching a guy, especially a guy sitting with a sefer and learning. The question about sending your children to learn far away with very little/no supervision doesn’t just apply to girls. The same way people challenge the idea of going to a seminary in EY, they should consider the same arguments when they send their bochurim away. The bochurim (not just the girls)… Read more »
I’m currently in sem bais, and I want to stick in my input. All of the good farbrengens I’ve had, both this year and last, have been given by men. To put it bluntly, the women were awful. Maybe we’re “spoiled”, that we don’t like to shmooze with other ladies, and that we want to get some tachlis out of the farbrengen? I don’t know. But what I do know is that incidents which occur are usually NOT the fault of the parents. I highly doubt that parents suspect a thing! And yes, the seminary is at fault, but they… Read more »
I think sem is very important in life.. Indeed the rebbe said we have to.. And if there is any problem its not bc of sem, its bc of their home.. The chinuch they get at home! I think sem is very important and gives u the tools for life and helps u to grow up in many ways U discover urself! Besides that is an amazing experience and ull never get te same again! And if u decided to go to sem its bc u rlly wanna learn and not waste ur time and money.. To hang out U… Read more »
It’s incredible that there seems to be a consensus on an issue on COL! So, it should be easy enough to fix, right? How do we practically go about fixing it in an effective manner instead of just complaining about it? Suggestions?
That never happened to me, and I didn’t even have a dvar malchus. Maybe you should not have sat in the back – that’s where the sem girls usually sit 🙂
The seminary experience has become the “in” thing. It changed from a recommendation to a requirement. I believe that only those that can and really want to can go, but not because “all their friends are going” but because they want to learn and grow. But this growth, it can be gained in other ways as well, through shlichus, or getting a fast degree through a religious program and working. If you don’t trust the seminary, don’t send your daughter there. If you know someone who is sending their daughter there, don’t judge them, if they feel its right, it’s… Read more »
i think its very importat to be on seminary!!!! and the girl grow so much!!!! and its a oportuniuty to visit eretz hakodesh… dthere is not a place better than eretz isroel to learn… and the problem of the gilrs its not because seminary… it is becouse the chinuch at home!!!!
i am sorry with my english…that is nopt so good…
we need today to take care of our childreen and not with stupiede thing… like politics!!!!
mashich now!!!!
Don’t you know the back of the bus is for women????
Like many issues, such as abuse in yeshivas, in homes, etc. this is an issue being faced in all communities across the board. As a Lubavitcher website, however, let’s try to keep our comments constructive so that we fix the problem in the moisdos that we are familiar with without lumping entire groups of people, i.e. bochurim, girls, mashpiim, girls who do go to sem, girls who don’t go etc into lump groups. Although isolated, there are some serious breaches of acceptable code of conduct and principles and this is what needs to be addressed. so that more girls, boys,… Read more »
I attended neve yerushayim and I know it isn’t lubavitch thou we did have rabbis as teachers and they were inspiring and I have learnt a lot from them, thou I don’t agree with rabbis or mashpias hanging out with the students late at night, it isn’t appropriate on both ends although going away is something I suggest to girls coming out of high school, if a person isn’t ready to go and learn as soon as they finish high school don’t take a year off and then go. A person should go when they feel ready and in the… Read more »
OMG!!! THATS EXACLY WHAT HAPPENED TO ME! (BESIDES 4 THE PART OF THE DVAR MALCHUS)
i remember when i was in tzfas yeshva when i went on my off shbs. i went on the bus friday morning and took a back seat. i took out my dvar malcus. and started learning. their was never a time were i was able to finish my learning without girls coming over to me and trying to strike up a conv.
Guys the point of this article was not to bash Seminary or encourage your children to go to college instead. if you want you can vent another time….The point of this article is to give an awareness of tznius with genders that can go on in seminary with teachers-mashpim, and for that matter anywhere. The same goes for innocent sweet girls working for shluchim for the year and boundries are breached where the shliach works closely and till late hours with their girls calling them by first names creating a closeness that should not exist! A vad needs to be… Read more »
if you improve the girls high schools, then you dont have to worry about a sem girl learning chassidus “for the first time in a real way” as was said above. instead of the seminary interviewing you, you should interview the seminary.
as a chasidishe girl, and one who attends every farbrengen she can, i think that men who farbreng for a couple hours with no mashke and teach us more chassidus help girls grow a lot. often, the women who farbreng are too floaty and think everything is good and dont feel the need to tell us what we need to hear and instead say something that we make us feel good. mashke is wrong even by men’s farbrengens but i think men can farbreng tzniusly for women
In my daughters sem, a relatively young woman teaches them about marriage and relationships. Even though my daughter is out of town, we talk daily on the phone. BH, I have good relationships with my teen children, they share openly ideas about marriage and love with me. Some of the stuff the teacher is telling them is, at the very least, highly problematic and potentially damaging to how a woman sees herself in marriage. Some is downright ridiculous. Why is a woman, who is still figuring out her life, hired to teach on such a sensitive topic? What are her… Read more »
should this be read as “rich shidduch list”? Let’s be honest…if you can afford to pay them what they want, they will accept you in sem. If we all know this to be true, the only thing you prove by sending your daughter is that you have the funds
I agree with the premise of the article, but considering it all, B”H, the incidents have been relatively few. Maybe we do have good girls, and chassidisher teachers, and most pull through the nisyonos that the system has created
There is an inherent problem having a male mashpia for a girl. Intimacy does not only mean forbidden touching etc. Intimacy can also mean talking about sensitive issues and private matters. Having an intimate conversation between a teacher and a student sounds like the teacher is having a strong impact on the student but it can also be that the teacher is in need of intimacy and getting it from the student. The student is also enjoying the intimate connection which she is having with a male teacher. I doubt very much that there is one male mashpia out there… Read more »
what happened to me in seminary in eretz yisroel- I was a chassidishe girl who got dragged to Elat with a friend , met a bunch of american yeshiva bocherim , spent the day with them, missed our bus home and had no choice but to sleep the night with them in their hotel room . I got dragged again by this friend ( who i was desperate for her friendship)to meet up with them again. They wined and dined us, two poor girls who couldnt afford to do the resturant scene our wealthy friends were doing. I kept bumping… Read more »
How about Baal Teshuva Seminaries under Chabad that for some crazy reason turn a blind eye to things they know go on? Things the Hanhala would never allow if theirs was a “mainstream” seminary (whatever that means) Standards are standards and Chabad has standards. Don’t we??? I also agree that today, Seminary is less important than it was even 15 years ago. I don’t know if I would be so quick (or desperate because of Shidduchim) to make sure all my girls go to Seminary. Some of the places aren’t so ay-ay-ay as we think they are. Girls are vulnerable… Read more »
Where in Torah and Chassidishkeit or in Chumash do we read of our Imahos or our biblical heroine needing to leave home to gain independence. That in itself is not a yiddishe terminology. In der alter heim and preceding those times a girl stayed home until she was married. IF girls in E”y Seminaries were not travelling the country every second or third weekend, I understand. My daughters have arrived in Seminary 2 weeks before Tishrei began and were told immediately to find acomodations for Sukkos. Hence, began a year of travelling and wandering…. Totally not our way… A girl… Read more »
Do you know where your child is at all times and what they are going through even in front of your own nose???
if we wasn’t to do something we will do it in new york any way and this the perfect thing we have is that we have space for our selfs and all the sins that I commit are my problem that’s one of the things that happens after bas mitzva and now that I’m 18 I’m sure I can make my own decisions!! And its not like in sem all we do is do aveiros we actually do good things so if parents start being over protective all it would do is harm
Why aren’t there guidlines from TORAS MOISHE about the whens whats and hows on seminaries, schools and conventions .
We have Halachos,( Yichud for example ), chassidisch hanhagos, things that we don’t do VEIL S”PASST NISHT, things we don’t do for maaris ayin.
We don’t need to farbreng about these holy issues – just DO them!
Just want to add 2 pieces of advice for young adults. Point 1: If you enter with nothing you leave with nothing. (You have to work on yourself, first) Point 2: The Rebbe writes to a bachur to be aware that even in yeshiva there are the negative influences hiding under the floor. (You have to know right from wrong, no matter who is involved)
Do you know where your daughter is….holding? Don’t send her to seminary if she has a bad attitude and can’t accept authority. So many girls come to seminary and erode any possible good work a principal can do because they eat away at others positive attitudes. Also, I believe that the minute discussions go beyond the classroom with a male teacher (of any age!), this is where problems start. If its a simple chassidus shiur from 12-1pm and he walks out and chutz mizeh there is no discussion or conversation with him and any students, it shouldn’t be a problem.… Read more »
Ok maybe that’s a little too much i mean sem is a great thing but it doesn’t mean that who doesn’t go to sem won’t “encourage their husbands to go to farbreingens” or won’t be a “future mother” u know what i’m saying?
It was worth every penny. They learned Chassidus. They grew in hiskashrus. They came back in inspired. Worth the $20,000, plus!!….every single penny. Seminary is like “finishing’ school. To #25, where are you quoting the Rebbe from? Does not sound accurate. The Rebbe DEFINITELY encouraged girls to go to Seminary. Perhaps with farbrengens and Rabbis giving them to a group of 50 girls, with mashke….they could institute a rule, that a married teacher needs to be at the farbrengen, so that the Rabbi is never left alone with all the girls. This way they still benefit from the farbrengen, but… Read more »
how can a girl understand the true meaning of mesiras nefesh without hearing Rabbi _____ farbreng about his young years in Communist Russia? How can a girl appreciate what it means to love the Rebbe without seeing Rabbi _____ cry for the Rebbe, only possible with the inducement of abit of Mashke? etc etc
These are only some treasured memories which have formed me and which I look back to.
seminary is definitely important if you are going for the right reasons (not just to have a year of independance or camp) but to grow in a way that you only van when you have none of the distractions of city life. however like everything in this world it can be used for the wrong reasons and we just haveto think to ourselves why we are going cuz then if were going to have fun then yes i agree with all those parents who refuse to pay for their children to ‘waste’ a year in ey when you can get… Read more »
i’m surprised that “mashpiim” are allowed to farbreng with mashke – and to the wee hours of the morning. The point is to loosen up, but we have many harchakos that davka attempt to prevent loosening up in mixed company. this is a case of “toivel visheretz beyodoi”. #27 sounds like what the Rebbe would say, and it’s sickening how far things have gone! #38 – please post the name so everyone can know which seminaries are worthy of being emulated, and names of seminaries (not individuals) should be posted telling which ones need to change their ways. I’m afraid… Read more »
I disagree with you.
Im not saying you’re daughter is not a good girl, i’m sure she is, but i don’t think that girls who DID go to sem are npt good girl. It’s true that in sem sometimes you can change, but you know from highschool how people are you don’t need to go to s to discover it. So those sem girls who you claime are not good girls, were probably like that from before, it has nothing to do with sem.
Amazing comment!!
Many girls don’t want to go to seminary. They are forced to go by their parents, teachers & schools. If you don’t want to send your daughter to seminary, don’t. She probably won’t mind. Stop complaining about the costs & problems – nobody is forcing you to send your daughter to seminary. It is the girls that feel forced. They are not going to a year of camp – rather, if I’m being forced to go, why not make use of the time?
Yep, and while those girls [whom you just labeled as people without Yiras Shomayim] will work hard to get a degree and a job, so that they can bring a second income into the household, you will be living off of Foodstamps, Medicaid, Section 8, Wic and a free Foodstamp phone, (which, ironically, will be coming off of the taxes that those girls will be paying!) all while stating how great of a “Yiras Shomayim” you are. Apparently, the time the seminary gave you to “think over and reflect on the deep maamorim” loosened up some screws in your head.… Read more »
What is the source of this concept of Farbrengen’s for girls?
The Rebbe Farbrenged with the men, and SPOKE to the women.
When was there ever a concept in the 200+ years of Chabad Chassidus that women sit around at a Farbrengen and sing Niggunim?
Can anyone point to an instance, story, or maybe even a letter where the Rebbe encouraged this?
I agree that the community has to stop encouraging boozing. I saw a respected Rav whom I admired stumble home on Shabbos afternoons, lying on the sidewalk, unable to get up because he’d downed one too many vodka at the Kiddush. What a shande for the Torah. Get the booze out of the Farbrengens…if you can’t open your hearts up without alcohol, then you need to speak to your Mashpia about why. MASHPIA, not MASHKE!!
you must have what to be paranoid about,
just because there are some very unfortunate incidents
but to whitewash all seminaries and all male teachers is just wrong, men are allowed to teach women when hilchos yichud are followed,
I would be much more worried about men working in manhattan in offices then the male teachers in seminaries
MY DAUGHTER’ S SEMINARY HAD NO DORM COUNSELOR
GIRLS WOULD GO OUT AT NIGHT FOR INNAPROPRIATE SOCIALIZING. MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY WHO WERE NOT YET FRUM CAME
ONCE A WEEK TO LEARN WITH THE GIRLS, BUT IF THEY
CHOSE TO COME EVERY OTHER NIGHT AND TEACH
OUR GIRLS THERE WAS NO ONE AROUND TO SEND
SUCH PEOPLE AWAY. GIRLS WERE SENT TO VARIOUS
SHLUCHIM FOR SHABBOSIM. SOME SH LUCHIM WERE
VERY INSPIRING, SOME USED THE GIRLS AS KITCHEN
HELP, AND SOME SPEND TOO MUCH TIME TALKING
TO THE GIRLS. I NEVER SENT ANOTHER DAUGHTER
TO SEMINARY!
i agree more thought should be put into all of these things, and i could fault seminary for lots of things that happened, but at the same time girls who want camp all yr round get camp, girls who want a true expireance of chassidishkiet and truth get it. seminary was the most important year of my life and i dont regret a minute of it and i think it was money well spent.
all systems have faults. seminary too. especially that there are so few of them and so exclusive… but we cant paint life black because of them…..
it’s the girls from seminary who will take the chassidishe farbrengens and instill these values into their home!!! They are the ones who will encourage their husbands to go to farbrengens!!!! The furure mothers are the seminary girls!!!!!
NO mashke was allowed, either by the rabbi farbrenging or the students. Often the rabbis( who are quite reputable and respectable,) would joke and say eh, what is a farb without mashke? but rules are rules, and the entire year, we would say lchaim with water or juice in our cups. We went to farbrengens to inspire us and hear some words of wisdom from the rebbeim we truly respected, not to get druink.
The whole concept of farbreinging and mashke has gone wrong. I remember listening to the Rebbe farbreing until the wee hours of the night and all the men had to drink was a litlle l’chaim cup – often wine. Today it became the accepted norm for Rabbeim and worse yet, young shluchim, in our Yeshivos to get drunk and give underage boys hard-core liquor to “loosen up”. Anyone making a hachlota under the influence is not obligated to keep that hachlota once sober. The entire concept is ludicrous! One Shabbos, one of my son’s rabbeim was walking home from shul… Read more »
I gaind tremendously from seminary, the first time maamorim and chassidus was taught in a real way, and time was set purposely for thinking over them etc. Being that times are running faster every year maybe this high quality learning and discussing can be implemented in the “waste of year” 12th grade has been labeled?? And especially nowadays that the plague of college has gone wild, these girls will never get a chance to taste real pertinent chassidus that enfolds yrasshamaym , bitachon Jewish pride ,etc? They need highschool degree, cant skip it!
maybe all the girls should not look at the rabbi and everything will float.
As a seminary student, I was always disturbed by the use of Mahke at farbrengens with girls. It is simply not appropriate for 1 man to be left alone with a bottle of mashke, surrounded by over fifty girls at 2 in the morning. I have spoken to the seminary principals who have told me that mashke is needed in order for the Rabbis to “loosen themselves out” and be able to “speak openly”. I think that at a time in a girl’s life when she is so vulnerable and trusting to the seminary, it is up to them to… Read more »
Seminaries are not only a waste of money, they could be counterproductive. Of course, kids would not want to give up 10 months in camp…who wouldn’t? But being a parent means being a parent. We cannot afford the seminary experience, and we live in our budget, so there will be no out of seminary for my girls. Girls need practical hashkafa and halacha, taught mostly by women. They do not need to be a baki in maamarim or whatever. The problem is that everyone looks over to their neighbor to see what they are doing. I won’t. I will do… Read more »
I had a young male teacher (last year) and every time he walked into the classroom I had this uncomfortable feeling take over me. And yes this was in crown heights, but I didn’t have the courage to speak up to the head staff because after all shouldn’t I trust the hanhola? Thank you so much for taking your time to post this article, it’s well written, and I hope that schools, especially seminaries take this matter seriously.
my daughter went to bais rivka seminary, right here in crown heights and came home one day asking, ” ma, do you think it’s appropriate for a man to be teaching a seminary class?”
Girls need to feel comfortable to talk to you to hear what is appropriate and what is not, and if you dont think its appropriate, but the school has such a teacher anyway, give your daughter some guidance on how to act appropriately under the circumstances.
seminary abroad may just be a thing of the past…and none too soon either….
many girls are just turned off by the whole admission process and wish they didn’t have to go just to be on the ‘good’ shidduch list.
the 10,000 per child savings and more, would be a financial relief to our overburdened and debt ridden parents.
the way i see it, don’t go..it’s win win…
Honestly, why would these wives even let their husband farbreng with a bunch of girls???
I’d never allow that!!!
Can’t take em anywhere….
The Rebbe told Rabbi Itche Meir Gurary about being principal of Beis Rivka in Moontreal that a mashpia for girls is supposed to be a woman. But a general principal may be a man.
Perhaps someone can find out exactly what the Rebbe said
I think we must have been in the same class!
In seminary I recognized the inappropriateness of the Mashke etc. and would make a point to leave while there was still a crowd.
After a decade plus, what I remember are the shiurim and the chaarcter of the teachers. The farbrengens definitely recede in memory.
Most of our male teachers were paradigms of Tznius and appropriate interaction.
r married teacher
I dont think giving girls a sense of independence away from home should be the point of seminary. The Rebbe himself emphasized so many times kol kevuda bas melech penima…and he said girls should not even go out to work. So why should the ikar be on becoming independent? That is part of the problem these days…
Ha. A little mashke? 22 is right. Some girls get drunk all the time in seminary. I was a bochur in a rebellious stage in Israel, and I would meet seminary girls in inappropriate places all the time. There are plenty of stories not appropriate for this site that would chill the blood of these girls’ parents. For many girls, seminary has become a year where they explore things they never could around their parents.
yet another post that offers people to vent and all stays as was? Are YOU prepared to get together with others and demand from the seminary (the one you beg and wimper to get into and pay whatever they demand)? No way. You’re happy your daughter “got a slot” and will keep your silence (or post anonymously here). the only way these atrocities get cured are by the marker/consumer. And right now the vendors rule. There’s not enough competition. When 200 girls apply to get 50 slots and you open your mouth about “who is teahcing what when and where”… Read more »
As a young mother, and alumni from one of the elite seminaries in E”Y, here’s my 2 senses: Yes I gained an enormous amount in sem and wouldn’t trade it for the world. However this article is spot on. Only now as a married women do I truly understand how many inappropriate things go on. Young men, and I mean very young men, give classes to girls. It is very common for a few girls, or even one girl to stay and discuss a question she has with a male teacher, once the class has emptied out. Girls sometimes have… Read more »
Ask for accontability? Why? They won’t answer. You can’t even get answers out high schools and mesiftas. It’s a free for all. No one answers except to themselves. Rules and more rules, pages and more pages in guidebooks firing schools, but ask a question, request an explanation. Point out a contradiction, and you become a pariah. Wake up a smell the roses. Keep your kids close, talk to them, watch over them, be there for them. That’s why you became a parent.
Seminary gives girls A sense of independence away from home from their parents. You can oy baby your children ad shield then for ever. I DO agree that young rabbeim should not be teaching sem girls as they are often very attracted to them! Along with the excitement of an exciting farbrengen comes excitement and gidynessin other areas. It is a problem.
do think that girls should have chassidisher farbrenegens to help bring about hachlotos tovos and inspire them but some girls are unfortunately too forward and do not conduct themselves properly and tzniusly.
Comment # 2 My daughter did not go to seminary and she is better then all those girls who went to seminary.
Really? I’m curious, what makes her better than all “those” girls who went to seminary? I don’t really have anything to add to this article but I do want to say that my daughter went to seminary in Australia and she had a wonderful year. She grew in so many positive ways. I am not sorry I sent her nor do I regret a single penny it cost.
Rabbi Tenenbaum and staff were wonderful.
what a stupid and senseless comment. you could nicely say that even though your daughter didnt go to to sem she turned out well.. but to say she is better then those who went is horrible!!!
Bh i went to a great sem, had an amazing time and gained spiritually tremendously! Keep it up seminaries!!
In sem our farbrenging rabbis’s always had mashka…and there were some who totally got drunk!
…also, why is it that some sem girls think hanging out on ben yehudah is a good idea?!?
I agree with no. 13 what is the point in sending the girls to sem. anyway because when they are finished with sem. the parents are looking for a shiddich and then they get married and majority of young women have to go out and work so their husbands could learn.
My daughter did not attend seminary in ey. She stayed home and loved it. The only thing she said shes missing is, “that its like camp all year” boy am i glad i didnt waste hard earned money on a camp exp for 10 months!!!!!
Seminaries these days are no longer what they once were meant to be. Nowadays the girls come back from seminary with wrong attitudes, very independent minded and not necessarily more chassidish or even with the right hashkofas…and that is after the parents spend thousands of dollars! So what is the point? I personally think kids are better off not attending seminaries unless perhaps they attend a sem in their own home town and they simply attend for the good wholesome motivation of learning and growing in chassidus. Otherwise there really is no point and it does not make them better… Read more »
may i please ask what the point of seminary is again?
someone answer me!
There was once a picture in a Chabad periodical of a man farbrenging with sem. girls. THERE WAS A BOTTLE OF MASHKE ON THE TABLE. If I didn’t see the picture, I wouldn’t believe it.
This is a HUGE issue. I agree that as parents, we need to ask these questions and press for answers. #3, it seems to me that your attitude is part of the problem. “Chilul Lubavitch” doesn’t even begin to touch the issue. Of course, when there is a flagrant and public breach of Halacha and mentshichkeit, as sometimes unfortunately happens, it is a huge Chilul – But it’s CHILUL HASHEM, and that’s a far more fundamental problem. But, even without the issues of “broadcasts”, we are dealing with major issues of right and wrong; of Taharas HaMishpacha in a very… Read more »
What you write might be 100% true BUT unfortunatly the article is refering to issues inside the 4 walls of the seminary……….
There is a bigger problem at play, which, apparently nobody seems to notice. Men and women, even among Chabad Chassidim, have very distinct roles in life. It is NOT normal for girls to farbreng all night, learn complex ma’amorim, learn Gemara, and become fanatically “Chassidish” in an unhealthy manner. (Yes, the Rebbe encouraged Chassidus for women, but at a healthy approach and a much more subtle level.) So, before you ask the question of “who” is farbrenging with the girls all night, you should first be asking “WHY” are they farbrenging all night? Is it normal? Is this what the… Read more »
“Specifically in areas that are especially for women and no men are around, a man obligated to guard his soul even more. He’s to completely distance himself from there; not to sit with them in their groups and not to speak with them at all. Rather he should close his eyes to them and run away etc.” – Pokeach Ivrim ch. 17. This sefer was written for one specific baal teshuva, but the fact remains: men are putting themselves and others in jeopardy by belonging to a seminary. Best to leave the teaching/mashpia positions to the many talented women out… Read more »
What abt rabbis that drink while they’re farbrenging?!
They do not prepare anyone for real life…Life is not a dormitory with meals prepared by others and trips on weekends. Life is theoretical, especially not for young women. Why are girls farbrenging? Why are men mentors? Do we not have enough women to be mentors? What, exactly, does seminary prepare girls for anyway?
Why are parents refinancing their credit for a $20,00 year vacation they cannot afford? The insanity must end.
Soo true! Now we all just need to get together and do something!
What you write , unfortunately, ‘smells’ of truth. There should be a vaad of Seminaries that sets standards, so this won’t happen again.
i agree 100% with you. When lubavitch girls roam around Eretz Yisrael, it is very not modest and aidel. they can end up talking to the other gender, chas veshlom, and doing stuff that are a chilul lubavitch
My daughter did not go to seminary and she is better then all those girls who went to seminary. Its a real shame some ppl are so closed minded and they based shidduchim over if the girl went to this or that sem.
I think the time has come to go back to the days of old, when our generation did not need to go gallivanting around Eretz Yisrael for seminary. It is perfectly okay to stay in Bais Rivkah Seminary and take a trip to visit Eretz Yisrael. Why do our children need to roam around on their own. It is not aidel or Chassidish.