Hi, my child came back from day camp and was asking about playing music these days. He knows that on the drive home, we don’t play the regular song list that he likes and that we have to make due with vocals-only songs.
He does miss his regular tunes but knows why we do it, as I’m sure everyone else does: The Nine Days (and Three Weeks before that) remember that we are in galus since the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash.
So it was surprising to him – and me – that he said that regular Jewish music was playing at camp. I asked around and hear that his camp wasn’t the only one. I heard of a day camp for nonfrum kids who got a heter from a rov to do this as part of education for these children.
I am not aware of a heter given to frum day camps and overnight camps to do this. I asked more than one rov and was told there is no heter.
So why is it being done?
Maybe it is a playlist that was created before camp and wasn’t changed for these days? Maybe it’s just a young staff member not too familiar with halachos – and the directors who didn’t pay attention? or maybe there is a heter I don’t know about.
My question is why even go there?
We are so makpid to give our children the best chinuch. We will never compromise on Cholov Yisroel and other essentials from Shulchan Aruch, halacha, and Minhag Chabad. So why compromise here?
Playing just acapella music will tell our kids that something is different these days and that we should care about it. It’s a chinuch moment that would be a pity to miss out one.
So dear camps, please play acapella music or don’t play anything at all.
I agree!!!
Unfortunately the depressed in Av are not besimcha in Adar. Please find better things to worry about. Sponsor a kiddush
The author of the article isn’t wrong. It’s against halachah to listen to music during the Three Weeks. The author only pointed that out and suggested that it be implemented. What should he do? Should he let it slide because you think there are “better things to worry about”?
He should not analyze and let people do s they wish. There are plenty of heteirim and camps should be lenient in general. Its not a gestapo.
And nothing wrong with sponsoring a kiddush
The way you play music in your house is up to you! But a day camp,yeshiva or even overnight camp is part of chinuch of a kid, when there is clear inyanim what not to do during the 3 weeks, who are you to decide it is allowed. Parents send their kids to camp,knowing that the chinuch of the kids is in good hands! Yes there are always extremist that want the school to go to their extreme,about this i will say the school should make their values and go according to their values, not the extremist values(the school should… Read more »
No there aren’t more important things to worry about on a macro level. A camp playing music is a statement that halacha doesn’t matter, shulchan aruch doesn’t matter, if it interferes with fun. It’s not like music is even a requirement to have a fun time in camp. If we allow music in camp the children won’t even look at it as an issue when they get older to listen to music during the three weeks. If we are teaching children in learning class that we don’t listen to music during the three weeks and then two minutes later are… Read more »
10 years ago in a chassidish chabad school, as I was the teacher, during the 3 weeks i put on no music. My assistant who is more lubavitch then me said “oh it’s okay to put music, they are only in preschool. ” I dont know which Rabbi ‘started’ this but you want children to have a heter and not be makpid?! Children follow adults. If adults are cool, children will be cool in other areas and then adults will complain why is he more cool in his frumkeit as a teen? Stop being complicated PARENTS and teach your kids… Read more »
I’m going to guess that you weren’t the English teacher
I was both- in certain schools for preschool the teacher is there the whole day. It has nothing what to do with english or hebrew – it has to do with either you are frum or less frum. You wear a kipa to college regardless what studies you are studying.
Ask your lor
Did you ask a Rav?
I am a rav. It’s forbidden to listen to music during the three weeks.
It’s is forbidden to listen to music all year long…
You are.
I am sorry you are suspicious of weather a rav was asked but yes of course a rav was asked
I am wondering if maybe it was accapella which can sound like real music. I started putting it on in the car and it almost sounded like real music
If it sounds like real music, I would ask a Rav if you can listen to it… I’ve asked before, and the answer I got was “that there are those who may permit it, but s’past nisht”. And that was for acapella music that doesn’t sound like music. There’s a reason for these halachos, and if you have a way to generate music using your voice and have modern-day technology fix it up and duplicate it etc etc, it may be just as bad as music. Just my two sense.
For little children, there’s no issue. For those at the age of chinuch/understanding, I agree with you entirely.
This is an interesting distinction that you confidently made up. Why’s there no issue for little children? The source of the prohibition doesn’t mention a provision excluding “little children.” And if you’re referring to the general exception of “little children” not having to follow halachah, why’d you mention that here? That’s way out of scope. Besides, “little children” don’t need music, so I’m not sure why they wouldn’t be subject to the prohibition. On another note, in order to play music to “little children,” an adult would have to turn the music player, engaging in a prohibition themself. I’m going… Read more »
In Golus how can any yid listen to music. You want to celebrate while the Beis Hamikdash is destroyed? Turn off all music. Niggunim only!
you’re definitely correct that niggunim and music aren’t the same
They’re children…
i agree. I just had one of adult daughters told by the camp “one doesn’t need to fast of 17th of Tammuz, since we need you to supervise the children in camp.” so this is the way we teach our children to fast until you need to supervise the children in camp!!
This applies to a billion other things. We have to be tznius, but only until we graduate seminary. After all, look at our parents and shluchos.
We have to daven, but only until we become “mothers,” after which we’re too “preoccupied” to daven.
The schools I went imparted values, but not values for life; instead, they imparted values for the duration of my schooling
But why eggs?
I don’t believe this
Firstly, why can’t CGI’s for not-yet frum kids play acapella? There are so many options these days. Every popular Jewish song has an acapella version and there are endless upbeat acapella songs.
Secondly, there’s certainly no excuse for a camp for Lubavitch children.
Thank you for putting this out there.
There are acapella versions of many songs today. It could be he doesn’t even notice that it’s acapella (altho I agree, it would be a nice teaching moment to explain that to the kids).
What’s wrong with teaching children that there are certain things that we are not makpid about, such as aveilus? Is that not an important part of chinuch?
I don’t think it’s a problem to be makpid about simcha and meikil when it comes to aveilus. There’s lots of precedent for that.
Kids understand black and white. They don’t fully comprehend the gray area until they get older.
Where does it say we are not makpid in hilchos aveilus?
We don’t add in aveilus more than halacha, but halacha is halacha.
I’ve been saying this for years. We are trying to use music which is forbidden at these times to be mechanech frum lubavitcher kids, which is something they would never do at home.
So I should be mechanech my kids to be better jews by feeding them non cholov yisroel or other products?
It clearly says in the kitzur shulchan aruch that you should be mourning year round and not bee happy ….
Ivdu es Hashem b’simcha.
Serve Hashem with Simcha.
We have holidays for being very joyful, we have serious holidays, we have holidays in which we commemorate miracles, and we have the 9 days which are somber. Let’s respect each time in the Jewish calendar for what it is. When moshiach comes this will no longer be a sad time but for now it is.
In CGI Florida they only play Acapella for all three weeks and nine days
This is an absolute busha to chasidim. Chasid= LIFNIM mshuras hadin. How can any right minded lubavitcher subject our children to this michshal?!?!
I agree that the camps should play acapella which satisfies the education for inspiring the kids with music. However, I think the camps should allow swimming in the nine days for exercise and my Rov told me that there’s no source in halacha that prohibits swimming for exercise. Only pleasure bathing is prohibited. Let’s not add on the issurim we have. The Torah doesn’t like when we do that like a nazir prohibiting himself from wine needs to bring a korban for atonement for adding issurim. So everyone please go swimming in the nine days asap for exercise and stay… Read more »
It’s like 5 camp days. We can hold off. Not worth the risk
Bc swimming is the only form of exercise available?
I exercise by walking through six flags and bring ym heart rate up by riding the rides. So I should continue that in the 9 days?
Take a walk.
As if kids don’t go into pool for pleasure just for exercise
There’s also the idea that we refrain from dangerous things during the nine days. Traditionally swimming is one of those dangerous things we start away from.
If you didn’t realize yet camps are businesses not educational institution if you want to be religious it your issue
Chayolei is a Moised that puts Chinuch first and money isn’t even part of the Cheshbon
Not sure which camp you’re referring to but any lubavitcher camp claims they have a chassidishe environment. If they don’t have that claim maybe your right.
As Jews, nothing we do is not in line with Yiddishkeit.
How much more so something with our children.
How much more so camps which the Rebbe emphasized again and again should be adding to the children’s chinuch even more than school.
BH.
From reading all the comments, I see its necessary to get clarity on this subject.
Questions like is it a issur or a minhag?
What’s the origin of this ?
What was the exact prohibition?
And how is this applied today?
Is there any situation where one can be lenient?
There are so many details, and different opinions among poskim.
Getting clarity on the basics would help us better understand and make the right decision.
Moshiach now!!!
Minhagim are even more important than halacha when it comes to chinuch.
See likkutei sichos on the order of mah nishtana
“I am not aware of a heter given to frum day camps and overnight camps to do this”just because you’re not aware of something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist actually go ask around and you’ll find out that almost every overnight camp has a heter to listen to music during the 3 week(not including the 9 days) so if you don’t like a camps policy don’t send your kids there it’s very simple
The author pointed out that even if there is a heter, we shouldn’t be educating children this way.
There is nothing wrong with advocating for the right thing
A heter isn’t a loophole it’s an exception for something that a Rov deemed necessary to exempt so and so from therefore I think whoever wrote this article should stick leave the halochos for the rabbis and should do whatever they feel like for their kids
Once we’re talking about right and wrong…
Camp Gan Yisroel wasn’t created for Chabad kids…
What is your point? Is it even true?
Lubavitch kids have been going to gan yisroel for years
I’ve worked in multiple camps where the rav permitted music in the 3 weeks (not 9 days).
The joy camp offers (bc it has amazing positive energy that includes a lot of music) is not an opportunity to be missed and the rabbonim afree to that, as the camps I’ve been to were told.
If you don’t understand this, perhaps you don’t understand what a freeing experience camp is for many. It is not heipech haTorah. You are not getting this properly.
I was told that Rabbi Zalman Shimon Dvorkin gave a heter for Gan Yisroel to play regular music in the 3 weeks, (perhaps not incl the 9 days).
Can anyone confirm or deny this?
This is such a true point. I’m a staff member on a Gan Yisroel and it’s annoying especially for staff because we’re not little kids and we’re forced to listen to music. Another point Is that they are super careful on other things but music no one cares? Where are the priorities ?
That everything is just fine
We have a local day camp in town. A lot of the counselors are frum non lubavitchers. My friend, whose daughter works there told me: You lubavitchers have a different shulchan oruch than us. Basic Minhagim that all of klall yisroel have adhered to forever, are just not done in Chabad. Music in the three weeks, men not listening to girls singing, older boys singing together with girls, elbows and knees not covered etc. I didn’t know what to answer her. She loves Chabad and the Rebbe. She knows what we stand for and admires it, she is just shocked… Read more »
The Alter Rebbe wrote one!
I don’t think you understood what she meant
or allow the pritzus the poster is referring to!
You should talk to director, because none of what you wrote is acceptable in chabad
This is a camp for frum lubavitch kids? Sounds weird
I’m surprised by a lot of the sarcasm and disregard for Halacha in the comments. Since when do we pick and choose what’s important and what isn’t. Isn’t being orthodox, attempting to follow all Halochos? If you have a mental health issue and need to listen to music, do so privately and don’t publicize it. I was shocked when I heard that during sefirah, a Crown Heights girls school got heter for girls to listen to music during gym! How can a Lubavitch school do that? If you can get a heter for that, why not get a heter for… Read more »
Sefira is a bit different than 3 weeks, since Shulchan Aruch doesn’t forbid music in sefira (only dancing).
Agree 100%. You start being less careful with one thing and then it just goes down..
I’m shocked that camps take the learning classes so lightly and their are so few hours. I mean that has to be worse then music, that’s like a de’oraisa!!
These camps need to do serious introspection.
Either a complete remake and follow halacha, or no camp at all.
Hashem yishmor.
How can a Lubavitch camp be playing music in the three weeks?