ב"ה
Monday, 15 Shevat, 5786
  |  February 2, 2026

Can We Be Honest About Summer Camps?

Op-Ed by Rabbi Gershon Avtzon: As parents begin thinking about overnight camps, as a parent, educator, and camp Rabbi in an excellent and mainstream Chabad overnight camp, I would like to bring something important to your attention... Full Story

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experienced counselor
December 25, 2022 3:37 pm

No appreciation for the Rebbe’s Bochurim!!
This article is totally against Halacha!!

On the contrary..
Reply to  experienced counselor
December 25, 2022 3:48 pm

The point here is that in order for the bochurim to be able to do their shlichus properly, they need to have the right support on a chinuch level.

This article is about helping them, as opposed to throwing them head first into situations requiring decision making that is above their ‘paygrade’ (I know that word might be a trigger word for many..).

Which rebbe?!
Reply to  experienced counselor
December 25, 2022 3:53 pm

Rebbe’s bachurim….

In what way!?!?

Curse in front of kids?
Watch movies all night sleep all day?
Going two months without opening a book?

Please enlighten me here

Loll
Reply to  Which rebbe?!
December 25, 2022 5:29 pm

You’ve ever been to camp before?

Yes!!!
December 25, 2022 3:42 pm

and no to phones. Our children watch And use staff phones besides being around distracted staff. ( we don’t pay less for their doing personal things on our kids time)

Your kids time?
Reply to  Yes!!!
December 25, 2022 6:21 pm

Have you ever used your phone in front of your kids? Most counselors do not use their phone for their own good in front of campers. They take it out to play music, snap some pictures and double check the schedule. Besides, the argument that you that you don’t pay less for the counselors to be doing their own things during your kids time is ridiculous. Just like parents, counselors do not have personal time. 24/7 it’s time for them to be occupied with their campers. When do you want them to take care of personal things? Aside from the… Read more »

Moshe zuchmir
Reply to  Yes!!!
December 25, 2022 6:25 pm

This is also the counselors summer break.
They are overworked and paid $200 for the whole summer.
Give them a break.

Ahem!
Reply to  Moshe zuchmir
December 26, 2022 12:15 am

This is a JOB, not a vacation for the camp staff. Fortunately, most camp staff understand this, but those who don’t are not worthy of hire. Counselors, head counselors, teaching staff (and other specialists), and waiters are not there to experience a “summer break” other than on an official day off or a morning or afternoon off, just like in any other job. Do we excuse restaurant waitstaff because they are underpaid? If a young adult boy or girl takes a camp job with the attitude that “this is my summer break,” then — unlike the majority of dedicated camp… Read more »

Ahem back
Reply to  Ahem!
December 26, 2022 5:41 pm

I hope you understand that in this job the staff are getting about 3 cents an hour and that’s besides time and a half for overtime hours if you got paid that little you’d probably also use your phone on the job

Thank you for bringing this up
December 25, 2022 3:50 pm

I am still a parent of young children, but I dont understand the concept of sending my children to any camp – since the counselors are children themselves, barely 16 years old. How can they be expected to treat our children with the care of a professonal and not do them more harm than good? I know that one day I will have to send my kids to have the camp experience, but it really worries me and I am not looking forward to it. Just my opinion, and probably not very popular one at that. From a parent who… Read more »

No camp!
Reply to  Thank you for bringing this up
December 25, 2022 4:05 pm

You do not have to send your kids to camp. I do not send mine, and we have wonderful summer experiences together as a family.

Switch camp
Reply to  Thank you for bringing this up
December 25, 2022 4:24 pm

I don’t know what camp you send your kids to, but some camps have an age restriction and only hire 18+

Loophole
Reply to  Switch camp
December 25, 2022 6:46 pm

Every camp I went to I had a counselor 16 years old to the point where my counselor was 2 years older than Me and 1 year older than my friend who was 15. Alot of camps say that only 18+ but who are they kidding? They always find a way out.

would like to hear your thoughts
Reply to  Thank you for bringing this up
December 25, 2022 4:56 pm

I have the same sentiments as you and have thought about this in the past and struggle with the idea back and forth. I would like to hear your thoughts, why if you dont understand the concept of sending your children to any camp do you feel you have to send them to have the camp experience while it worries you? Dont you think if you dont feel safe sending your kids then is it really worth the camp experience? and if the camp experience is really important than do you just not trust your concerns? what is more important?… Read more »

It's not all about you
Reply to  would like to hear your thoughts
December 26, 2022 10:51 am

What if your kids really want to go to camp,
Maybe you had a bad experience,
But many children thrive and live for camp.
Camp is when they get to shine, and not have the pressure of school.
And the fact that the staff are still teenagers – the staff could actually relate to their campers because just a few years ago they were in the same place.

Kids love camp
Reply to  Thank you for bringing this up
December 25, 2022 5:55 pm

I sent my kids to sleep away camp as soon as they were old enough. They all loved it and could wait to go back. I have no regrets. Now that my older children are counselors, they may not be the most experienced but they have a chayus to give over to the campers. Kids can gain so much beruchnius from camp. Bochurim and girls don’t have the distraction of families and can give it their all. Of course training courses can’t hurt.

trash
Reply to  Thank you for bringing this up
December 25, 2022 10:55 pm

are you nuts?! counselors are NEVER *barely* 16 yrs old. Maybe maybe 17, but generally 18.

Not true
Reply to  trash
December 26, 2022 1:07 am

Not true, I was a counselor in a chabad sleep away camp the summer of 10th grade and I was 16, as we’re most of the other counselors

Just another money grab by the School
Reply to  Thank you for bringing this up
December 27, 2022 10:34 am

Keeping school and camp Separate is important they should stay in their lane. This is another shameful article that is aiming to take away whatever profit the camp is making and put it back in the school system.

We were once employed in a camp
December 25, 2022 4:05 pm

I saw first hand kids being humiliated in public, banned from going on a trip for something really small. This is in no way to disparage the counselors… they need proper guidance

100%
Reply to  We were once employed in a camp
December 25, 2022 6:49 pm

I a hundred percent agree. I was always that kid who got 1 hour docked for not being asleep and I wasn’t even bothering anyone. The counselors are clearly not mature enough. They always snitch, run away from problems, and half the stuff they say are lying. They have clear favorites. Obviously there are always the good counselors but the majority is power hungry immature 16 year olds.

hey
Reply to  100%
December 28, 2022 9:30 am

i’m 15, and i was a day camp counselor this past summer. i know that day camp and sleep away camp are very different, which is why i don’t plan on being a sleep away counselor anytime soon. i don’t know about most counselors, but any that i have spoken to do not have favorites. being a counselor is kind of like being a mother, you love every single child so much. most counselors don’t pick on campers for the fun of it. about the running away from problems part, our bunk had many issues and we stayed and dealt… Read more »

Now??
December 25, 2022 4:10 pm

No one starts registering Rosh Chodesh Teves, but okay…..

Where do you live?
Reply to  Now??
December 25, 2022 5:49 pm

Most camps do registration on Jan 1st.
Cgi toronto, cgi united etc

Its Dec 26
Reply to  Where do you live?
December 26, 2022 1:45 pm

Jan 1st. in 4 days….. Ergo

Uhhhh
Reply to  Now??
December 28, 2022 8:08 pm

Most Lubavitch high school girls have it all figured out by Chanukah

Detroit camp
December 25, 2022 4:16 pm

I’ve been to all overnight camps from across US-Canada boys and girls. I can say that Detroit boys and girls have the most caring devotion I’ve ever seen in all my life in a camp setting situation. And behold they have the LOWEST compensation scale towards the staff!! Then any other overnight camp.

Detroit is the olem
Reply to  Detroit camp
December 26, 2022 5:46 pm

I was a staff member in Detroit as well as other camps and I very much agree with you

Key words: "vaad hachinuch"
December 25, 2022 4:16 pm

Either you are related to or have connections to the “higher ups” or whoever is in charge of the camp, then you get custom made what YOU want. Otherwise it varies because you are in someone else’s territory not your own. Main problem is not camp. Main problem is: since you are in charge rabbi avtzon of a school etc… you perfectly know that Rabbis who own whatever school, camp, chabad house ARE IN CHARGE, if you dont like their rules go elsewhere. Stop blaming the counselors when Rabbis should have control over those who are causing the real underground… Read more »

Mendel G
December 25, 2022 4:28 pm

I was a head counselor this past summer in one of the major lubavich camps in canada. And I think staff do a better job than teachers.

Menachem c
Reply to  Mendel G
December 25, 2022 4:33 pm

So true. I was also a head staff member and we did a way better job than the teachers do

Schnuer m
Reply to  Menachem c
December 25, 2022 5:13 pm

I can say the same for the learning teachers
They went above and beyond

Mendel
Reply to  Mendel G
December 25, 2022 4:47 pm

Teachers are to old, kids don’t like them.

Chaya F
Reply to  Mendel
December 25, 2022 7:00 pm

Completely agree we need young relatable teachers and staff

Menachem mendel A
Reply to  Mendel G
December 25, 2022 5:03 pm

As a teacher we do better then head staff

Mottel F
Reply to  Menachem mendel A
December 25, 2022 5:39 pm

As a dedicated teacher for the past 69 years I agree completely shmuel. And I think it stems from a lack of perspective from these young and inexperienced counselors.

Which teachers exactly?
Reply to  Mendel G
December 25, 2022 5:34 pm

You mean the teachers who lost their motivation to teach 30 years ago but come in for the paycheck only to embarrass the children when they take a short break from talking at them?

Or do you mean real educators?

Somehow I doubt it’s the latter

With all due respect
Reply to  Mendel G
December 25, 2022 5:43 pm

It seems like you had negative experiences with some teachers, and it’s saddening. I was a counselor and head counselor for a few years. I am now a teacher. I can say with confidence that I am a better teacher than I ever was as a staff member, in Lubavitch camps and CGIs. The reason for this, I believe, is that I was young and inexperienced. I’m talking 16, 17, 18, 19. Some might still call me young, and I am, as I am still in my early 20’s, but I have read books, gone to Chinuch conferences, I’ve taken… Read more »

Embarrassment
Reply to  With all due respect
December 25, 2022 9:40 pm

The Kids benefit the most from camp and it’s quite literally Mesiras Nefesh for the counselors to go for their entire yeshivah break and not get paid.
Everyone should be thanking them

Zaman L
Reply to  Mendel G
December 25, 2022 11:20 pm

Listen Chevre, the tremendous love that the the Rebbe showed for gan yisroel is all the proof we need that we are on the right track.

The head staff are the Rebbes shluchim and have preformed and operated in a way of extracting the grubkeit that the kids go into the summer with. Some of us call it “operation extraction”.

counselors too!
Reply to  Zaman L
December 28, 2022 8:11 pm

How about the counselors who work constantly, if not more than the head staff

This article is so wrong
December 25, 2022 4:29 pm

This article assumes that if only there would be professional mechanchim in camps, nothing would go wrong. This is not true. Any of these stories could and do happen in schools and yeshivas as wel. The young boys and girls who run the overnight camps are usually our best. They often know how to build children who are destroyed by professional mechanchim all year long. Are they perfect? Certainly not. Is there room for growth? Always. Last year, all the head staff of the boys camps spent a weekend learning and growing. They were open to hearing from veteran directors… Read more »

Correction
Reply to  This article is so wrong
December 25, 2022 5:26 pm

Your comment opens with “This article assumes that if only there would be professional mechanchim in camps, nothing would go wrong.”

Please point out how you made this assumption about the article. I don’t think the article or it’s author assume anything of the sort.

Besides, I don’t think anyone with a bit of knowledge of what goes on, on the ground, will disagree that the more we can improve – by following the authors points – the more we should improve.

Chaim y
December 25, 2022 4:36 pm

Montreal is by far the best camp

Pick your package
December 25, 2022 4:38 pm

The more a person does something the less excited and enthusiastic he is about it. The more freedom a person has, the more he feels that it is “his project“ and the more effort a person is willing to put into it Give the same person the same project but with a lot of limitations, he will not produce the same, because it is not “his “. This is the very reason why camp is so enjoyable, because the staff are putting hours upon hours to make “ their project”the best It could possibly be . If camps would do… Read more »

Know your facts
December 25, 2022 4:43 pm

Gan yisroel parksville has a camp mashpia, a therapist, and a couple other professional mechanchim which are in touch with the head staff throughout the summer.

No big move is made without consulting at least one of them first…..

Wow- thats amazing to hear
Reply to  Know your facts
December 25, 2022 5:50 pm

All camps should follow this modem

Thats what he is saying
Reply to  Know your facts
December 26, 2022 9:58 am

Its not about the big things, its about the little things like permission to go to the bathroom in middle of line up or home sickness which these so called self appointed young juveniles have absolutely no knowledge and are absolutely clueless in this very important area. Enough said.

someone who
Reply to  Know your facts
December 29, 2022 12:15 am

not in our experience

Re GY Parksville professional mechanchim
Reply to  Know your facts
December 29, 2022 11:47 am

The bochrim at CGY Parksville were tzadikkim. This is not about them. This is about the lack of support they were provided. I would like to hear the “professional mechanchim” at this camp themselves describe: 1) what training was given to the teaching staff – none. 2) What was the suitability of the teaching material? Dry & unengaging comes to mind. Engaging material could have been purchased from camps that already have high quality material. 3) What materials were provided for the learning teachers? Was it only photocopied texts? Complete lesson plans & teaching material should have been provided to… Read more »

RE CGY Parksville therapist
Reply to  Know your facts
December 30, 2022 2:58 pm

I am sure that CGY Parksville is an enjoyable camp as otherwise it would not attract so many campers. As for the therapist: 1) Who was the therapist? 2) At what institute did he get his training? 3) How many years experience did he have? As far as I know, he was a 25 year old bochur, and there was no other therapist.

What is a professional mechanech?
December 25, 2022 4:45 pm

Out of genuine curiosity… What qualifies one as such?

has to be in chinuch at least 30 years
Reply to  What is a professional mechanech?
December 25, 2022 5:26 pm

have a long white beard
gezh is a plus
also needs to be on a least 3 Chinuch vaads

If you have to ask...
Reply to  What is a professional mechanech?
December 25, 2022 5:27 pm

… Then it might not mean you..
(Kidding, don’t take it too seriously)

Excuse me
Reply to  If you have to ask...
December 26, 2022 10:02 am

What is the problem to ask? This is the perfect example carelessness and indifferentness which is causing this whole situation. You definitely shouldnt be a counselor or be allowed in ANY camp or children related institutions. Shame on you!

It all starts from the top
December 25, 2022 5:41 pm

I concur with the author.
The real question is, Do you trust the director to be mechanech your child.
Some camps I think the answer is yes, some not.
I will happily send my children to a camp where I trust the director.
My advice do research, and find out the best place to send, Don’t just sit around waiting what your son or doughier decide they want to do

Camp lman achai
December 25, 2022 5:53 pm

I was a staff member in camp lman achai for 4 years, every year they have older teachers there to guide the bocherim, any bocherim who think they understand how kids work are delusional. I was in a main stream camp as a camper and staff member I am talking as someone who has seen both sides of this discussion and it is not even close, the writer of this article is 100% right. Anyone who knows anything about chinuch knows that no two kids are the same, but somehow bocherim will figure it out in the 5 hour training,… Read more »

אין לנו אלא נשיא דורנו
December 25, 2022 6:02 pm

I think the author as well as those in favor of his article should do some research into how Camp Gan Israel began. It was initiated, inspired and staffed entirely by BOCHURIM (Besides R’ Kehos Weiss, the cook and nurse). Let us not forget that this is the camp the Rebbe was so much involved in and even visited on 3 occasions(!). In fact probably the most important factor of camps success in giving children a feeling for Yiddishkeit and chassidishkeit is precisely BECAUSE the counselors are young relatable and fun – not annoying old strict teachers who (often) turn… Read more »

Confused
Reply to  אין לנו אלא נשיא דורנו
December 25, 2022 6:26 pm

The author did not say not to have bochurim being counselors etc

Apples to oranges
Reply to  אין לנו אלא נשיא דורנו
December 25, 2022 6:34 pm

I think you should do research into what type of bocherim went as staff then and what type goes now.
What I do agree with is going back to the old days when they taught about why we wear yarmulkes and tzitzis and how they is hashem in the world, like that the staff and campers will learn about why we are Jews and chassidim.
Kids don’t learn anything in camp.

You missed the point
Reply to  Apples to oranges
December 25, 2022 9:45 pm

Back then the kids coming didn’t know anything about yiddishkeit and not are coming from frum homes

cant compare
Reply to  אין לנו אלא נשיא דורנו
December 25, 2022 6:53 pm

You are making a comparison of the early years of camp where there were NO electronic distractions. As well, the Bachurim were very dedicated and learned, many whom went on to run cities. Children today, as well, are electronically distracted. Seasoned Machanchim need to be involved and given a position of the final word. I think it would be negligent to ignore the fact that the Rebbe actually visited the camp which awakens a real yoke on the staff, to perform on a high level.

missed the point
Reply to  אין לנו אלא נשיא דורנו
December 25, 2022 8:31 pm

not to be to disrespectful but I truly believe you missed the point of the article, yes bochurim always ran camp, and the author is not negating that fact, all he is saying is that even with “the holy bochurim” running camp, and that can continue there should be adults as well running it with them.

Exactly
Reply to  אין לנו אלא נשיא דורנו
December 25, 2022 9:44 pm

Couldn’t have said it better

Just heard at dinner table
December 25, 2022 6:43 pm

So I brought this topic up at our dinner table and my oldest son (who never went to overnight camp until yeshivas kayitz for this exact reason BH! None of our sons did.) told me that he heard from his teacher that in one of our camps, in order to punish someone for some infraction, this camper was brought to the front of the whole camp and was forced to swallow the water dripping from a squeezed out mop.
My insides are still trembling.
Know – whoever you are who did this – people remember!
You are NOT forgiven!

Beads in the hair
Reply to  Just heard at dinner table
December 25, 2022 7:06 pm

In a certain girls camp if any girl had beads in their hair they would be publicly humiliated in from of the whole camp and the head counselor would cut the hair with beads off. I cant imagine the trauma the girls must be going through. This is why we need our mashpios and mechanchos to step up to the plate.

Stop.
Reply to  Beads in the hair
December 26, 2022 11:05 am

Stop making up stories. That is not true.

Gosh
Reply to  Beads in the hair
December 26, 2022 11:54 am

Omg… seriously that story was way exaggerated! Unless it’s a different camp you are talking about but everyone had to take out their beads for the camp pic but it was like a whole funny ceremony

I don't believe this actually happened
Reply to  Just heard at dinner table
December 25, 2022 7:06 pm

But even if it did happen once I could name you things that teachers have done (more than once). My teacher once pulled me out of the classroom holding onto my ear. He also once made fun of me in front of the entire class (in fact, he coined a new nickname for me). I remember another teacher once putting a classmate on top of the cubbies. This happened around 2007. So for every terrible thing you say happened in camp, I can bring a terrible thing a teacher once did (and does). This isn’t speaking against teachers in general.… Read more »

Why would a middle-aged teacher lie?
Reply to  I don't believe this actually happened
December 25, 2022 7:48 pm

What’s in it for him to make up a story? He is an established man with married children.
I believe him.
My husband witnessed other cruel punishments metered out by teen-aged madrichim. This is why my boys never went to overnight camp.
Parents, be very selective in the choice you make for your son’s overnight camp, and make sure you can stay involved. All the years you have invested in your son could be lost in one summer, taken away by some crazy bochur who has not yet had the time to develop empathy. Is it worth it?

And...
Reply to  Why would a middle-aged teacher lie?
December 25, 2022 8:25 pm

All the years that good teachers and counselors invested in your son could be lost by one teacher who spent a lot of time developing cruelty.

On the flip side
Reply to  Why would a middle-aged teacher lie?
December 25, 2022 8:49 pm

All the years a child was bullied or ignored can be changed by one summer of a dedicated staff member giving them tons of attention till they thrive.
This is what the counselors are taught by counselor training sessions. (I speak from experience.)

If we are referring to the same event
Reply to  I don't believe this actually happened
December 26, 2022 12:59 am

Mendel I was in the classroom , I remember him pulling you out , it was only 1st grade ?! but I can’t forget that terrible scene .
you should only have blessings , your resilience is admirable
L.A.

Different person
Reply to  If we are referring to the same event
December 26, 2022 1:36 pm

But, you prove my point that bad things happen with bad teachers as well

Reply to I don't Believe This Happened
Reply to  I don't believe this actually happened
December 26, 2022 9:10 am

There is more power given to young people in camp, which can be a good thing thing, but also the opposite. Furthermore, kids go home every day from school, so there is greater chance that they will share their day with a trusted adult. Camp can be a really special experience. I know from my own time in camp, how wonderful it can be. but let us not ignore its pitfalls, which can leave deep scars. Accountability, empathy training, and other such modules must be implemented to ensure the safety of the young souls put into your care for a… Read more »

Teachers SMH
Reply to  I don't believe this actually happened
December 26, 2022 6:03 pm

Once in cheder when I was in 7th grade I was leaning back on my chair my teacher after telling me a few times to sit straight he kicked my chair and I fell back and smashed my head on the floor over the course of the next 20 minutes he lied to me about what happened made up a second story for my class who just watched this unfold and then made up a third story for my parents

That is just terrible!
Reply to  Teachers SMH
December 26, 2022 11:34 pm

I’m so sorry to hear that. As someone who was abused by his teacher (I’m the one from the previous comment), I understand how you feel. And the worst is when you tell your parents, and they don’t believe you. Worse then that, is not telling your parents, because you know from previous experiences that they side with the teacher. The latter was me.

Fake
Reply to  Just heard at dinner table
December 25, 2022 8:50 pm

There is absolutely no chance that happened in a mainstream boys camp in the past 15 years.

-A 4 time staff member and 7 time camper within the last 15 years

Tip of the iceberg
December 25, 2022 7:15 pm

There are many issues at camps and I think the author is 100 percent correct in pointing this issue out.I am not even sure all camps do a five hour training,it;s really scary! It hurts me to add the obvious” that directors must be treat whomever they work with (whether its their spouse,co-director or other head staff) with RESPECT and kindness especially in front of our most impressionable young children.
Directors who threaten parents or talk down to others is just an awful way to show who is boss.

Sounds great
December 25, 2022 9:30 pm

Hopefully they will properly pay whoever they hire, why do you think there are always young inexperienced staff members – the camp barely pays them!

Young staff is a blessing
December 25, 2022 10:21 pm

To all those hating on the little children being counselors, the setup of camp is so beautiful and incredible precisely because of the amount of empowerment and responsibility that young shluchim and shluchos are given in the form of camp staff. To those complaining that this generation is spoiled and fragile, staff at camp is part of that solution. However, I completely agree with rabbi Avtzon that empowerment only works when those on top know how to give that beautiful gift properly. Change is most definitely needed, as he suggests, but the system of camp as we know it is… Read more »

Esther Althaus
December 25, 2022 11:00 pm

Rabbi Avtzon, you raised some valid points which will hopefully be addressed appropriately. May I ask, though, that you reconsider your choice of words with reference to ‘broken families’. This is a very unfortunate way of referring to the home a child grows up in. A horrible label. There are many ‘broken’ homes where there are 2 parents living in the same house. A single parent household can be loving, warm and much more functional than what, too often, occurs in a picture-perfect home. Whilst I am sure you were being sensitive to the child and parents’ situation, the reference… Read more »

Noticed that too
Reply to  Esther Althaus
December 26, 2022 5:02 am

Very good point, and that, unfortunately, makes one question the whole approach. Labeling and even being aware.

cla camp by srula chaiton
December 25, 2022 11:17 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of the author. pleasantly surprised to have sent my kid to a camp by srula chaiton albeit a girls camp where she was involved in every detail ensuring an experienced chinuch experience

Camp is not yeshiva or maybe yes
December 25, 2022 11:52 pm

Kids need to have a brake from their Yeshiva long days and have lots of fun and activities, create new friends and childhood memories. The Limud is hashuv too, but need to be in more relaxing and enjoying atmosphere. The problem that some Rabonim don’t understand how to deal with a new generation. Young counselors have the energy to run 24/7, adults need to create a schedule and be there too, unfortunately last year my boys didn’t have The Hayus or good positive energy in the camp and were upset, most counselors were family members & super bossy and were… Read more »

Kettle calling the pot black
December 26, 2022 12:18 am

Since inception of Gan Yisroels, including of course when all were accountable to the Rebbe and when the Rebbe extolled the virtues of overnight camps, the camps were run mostly by bochurim, whose credentials were not “professional” but dedication to making the experience 24/7 constructive. Famous songs and entertaining plays were created, regardless of the seeds that may have added to the spirit of the staff’s creativity. Exactly what professionalism would RGAvtzon like to see for the tried and true structure of GanYisroel staff? Professionalism is not even required in 9 months of regular school. Head counselor given “too much… Read more »

Really?
Reply to  Kettle calling the pot black
December 26, 2022 8:10 am

You have got to be kidding…
You really believe that 21 year old bochurim are equipped with making real-life chinuch decisions?
The author said that the head-staff ar the true heroes (read the article), just missing life experience…

To all of those naive people who think they know w
December 26, 2022 12:23 am

Rabbi avtzon is 100% correct. There are a lot of times (NOT always, of course) when the head staff aren’t necessarily so chassidish, and most of the time a nice portion of the staff aren’t so chassidish. And this equation can equal plays that are written after movies, and counselors watching movies all day, and head staff waking up late every so often and deciding to delay that days reveille. When bochurim are involved without any ‘adult in the room’- i.e. a responsible adult who first of all has proper chassidish values, and realizes his achrayus and consequences of whatever… Read more »

Mendy
December 26, 2022 12:35 am

If you know any professional mechanchim that would bring their family and work at a camp for $300 a month I think there are many camps that would be happy to consider it

Gonna be that person
December 26, 2022 2:59 am

And say that you can’t say you are for a 109% chasidishe education and then turn around and say it’s ok to have all these months having the opposite in camp.
These months should also be used to ensure that kids have the skills they need for parnasa without having to rely on food stamps

Can we talk about acceptance
December 26, 2022 4:25 am

I think we should start with talking about the nausea I feel from the topic of acceptance and rejections of eight year olds????
What would the rebbe say about rejecting an innocent 12 year old from the opportunity to have the summer of his or her lifetime??

NO!
Reply to  Can we talk about acceptance
December 26, 2022 4:16 pm

Not every child belongs in camp

correction
Reply to  NO!
December 28, 2022 9:41 am

not every child belongs in _every_ camp. every child belongs somewhere.

Very well
December 26, 2022 8:01 am

Generally I don’t read this column but tis topic caught my eye.

The writer is 100 percent right,

Just look at other frum overnight camps, the head staff and (head) counselors are middle aged professional mechanchim doing this every year. (not kids)

Just pointing out
December 26, 2022 9:53 am

Every ‘professional’ mechanech was once inexperienced. I agree that there needs to be a leadership of someone with strong values and tremendous understanding of the kids, but that’s how people learn – through experience. I was a counselor for the first time when I was 15, and many camps later I can say that each camp I felt more experienced and able to deal with situations that came up.

Counselor
December 26, 2022 11:20 am

I’ve worked at different overnight camps as a counselor! I’ve seen which ones actually care About about every single camper and every single staff and the ones that don’t. We can not make generations. Camp can literally change people’s lives.

Staff member
December 26, 2022 11:23 am

I feel that being a counselor, if you have good camp directors that give you the correct training and tools you can be the best counselor.
Experienced counselor

My counselor cared for me
December 26, 2022 12:19 pm

More then my teacher ever could. All these “experienced” directors, teachers that you’re talking about, are motivated by money. they can never care for the campers, for the kids as much as the counselors do. Of course there are great people and are doing a great job but no one can compete with the love and care that the “unexperienced” Bachurim. Ask your kids you’ll see how much they love their counselor as apposed to their teacher.

not understanding
Reply to  My counselor cared for me
December 26, 2022 1:24 pm

Where in the article are people picking up that the author does not want bochurim to be ocunselors? He just wants there to be an experienced mechanech overseeing the matzav

YSH"K Gadol - I have had these exact thoughts
December 27, 2022 11:03 am

To answer some commentators; the head staff and counselors are absolutely wonderful, but as he is saying, they may lack a certain element of experience and knowledge, and can get overworked both physically and emotionally. Certainly, head staff will provide certain training. I know camps — especially for boys from public school — that distribute an entire manual – such as not to get too nervous about children’s rants, and to help out with the shalom bayis, and to know that children do not have the same ‘brakes’ as adults, so you have to help them out (especially on steep… Read more »

Rabbi Yoel Caroline
December 27, 2022 12:40 pm

After reaching out to Gershon for clarification, he is addressing a very important issue, and taking the important factors into consideration. He is looking to improve upon an already amazing system in ways that chaveirim and I have been talking about for many years.

YSH"K - I had these thoughts too!
December 27, 2022 2:49 pm

To clarify to some commentators, the head staff and counselors are absolutely wonderful, but as he is saying, they may lack a certain element of experience and knowledge, and can get overworked both physically and emotionally. Certainly, head staff will provide certain training. I know a camp that distributes an entire manual such as to know that children do not have the same ‘brakes’ as adults, so you have to help them out. About plays, I think the main thing to focus on is chesed and hashgacha pratis stories, not stam ‘in der velt arain’, like he is saying. You… Read more »

Bad chinuch vs. Emotional abuse
December 28, 2022 8:16 pm

Are they comparable?

Separate issues completely. Separate discussions completely.

Behind the Scenes
December 29, 2022 12:12 am

Thank you Rabbi Avtzon for raising some very legitimate concerns about the goings on in some camps, which needs to be discussed. Further to Rabbi Avtzon’s comments: My 18 year old son attended a large camp as a learning teacher. Some training was provided for counsellors, but none for learning teachers. Learning material provided was not engaging or interesting or even age appropriate. Materials were hard to come by. Teaching staff could not even get a blank piece of paper for campers to use during lessons. Camp is a very difficult teaching environment to begin with and throwing in young… Read more »

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