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Tuesday, 12 Tammuz, 5781
  |  June 22, 2021

“But My Mother Dresses That Way”

From the COLlive inbox: A director of a summer camp for girls writes about the struggle they deal with when speaking to their campers about modesty which is a private thing but also a public expression. Full Story

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Great article
June 7, 2021 10:42 pm

So true!said very very well!!mom’s wake up and be an example for your daughters

Agree
June 7, 2021 10:49 pm

But on a side note: camps have to remember, just because you are tznuis outside that doesnt mean you are “tznuis” inside. And when parents see and hear “tznuis inside” issues, why should they encourage their children to dress outside? For the show? It goes 2 ways my friend. When the tznuis inside will be resolved, the tznuis outside will go out naturally. Example: A baal teshuva first becomes inside before to go outside.

First the chitsonius, then the pnimius
Reply to  Agree
June 8, 2021 12:19 am

on the contrary. a baal tshuva of 47 years, one very definitely becomes “frum” on the outside at first, and hopefully that frumkeit will spread inwardly. it takes a while before a BT thinks, feels, and acts Jewish in all of her levushim. coming to 770 decades ago, I wore a hippy-dippy skirt to the ground and a sweatshirt, etc. two weeks later I was wearing a 100% polyester dress of a nerdy length and style in order to look the part of Ms. Modest. However, inside I was grieving for my lost identity. Finally, over the years, I evolved… Read more »

I'll still disagree
Reply to  First the chitsonius, then the pnimius
June 8, 2021 1:47 pm

My mom has been BH, BT for over 30 years now and she said she first started with pnimiyus and then chetzoniyus came. I dont think you realized, why would a BT dress as a chassid if he didn’t feel something inside first?! Cteen example, no one dresses as a chassid, first they feel the yearn for yiddishkeit before to dress. And if a ffb is cooler in dress, its because they realized tznuis is just for “show” so why bother? Yiddishkeit starts first in the inside.

I don't understand
Reply to  First the chitsonius, then the pnimius
June 9, 2021 9:30 am

I’m Orthodox and not hassidish. Can you explain to me why a hippy-dippy skirt to the ground and a sweatshirt (not a tight one) is not tznius? I’m genuinely asking. I know this look is not what your community does, and that is fine, of course, but I don’t understand why it is not tznius. I also understand that communities have certain looks that define them, and I respect that, but why is this a tznius issue? A loose skirt to the ground and not-tight sweatshirt covers the body, isn’t beged ish (which is its own halacha and not a… Read more »

Huh
Reply to  I don't understand
June 9, 2021 9:33 pm

I’m a newish BT, Chassidic, etc. and wondered that as well. I still wear what I’ve always liked – but keep it to the ankles, elbows, and collarbone.

U r fine just as u r
Reply to  I don't understand
June 10, 2021 10:02 am

It isn’t not tznius

I don't understand
Reply to  First the chitsonius, then the pnimius
June 9, 2021 9:36 am

Someone asks about leggings below. And someone else answered with this link: https://asktherav.com/1482-is-it-a-halachic-issue-for-a-woman-to-wear-leggings-if-the-leggings/#more-5977. I read the article and, please correct me if I’m wrong, someone, but I conclude from the last line that though the rav who wrote the other doesn’t love leggings, a hippy-dippy skirt to the ground (+ leggings) would be acceptable. Right?

Eitzas Hayetzer
Reply to  Agree
June 8, 2021 1:00 am

My friend , see Hayom yom 23 Sivan. You mean well, but this isn’t the answer.

Outside affects inside
Reply to  Agree
June 8, 2021 1:17 am

No one is perfect. Everyone has their own challenges. But Torah teaches us that אחרי הפעולות נמשכים הלבבות – doing the right actions inspires the feelings. Tznius in the more external aspects is bound to have an impact on the inside.

Agreed
Reply to  Agree
June 8, 2021 5:19 pm

I agree 100%. Tznius comes naturally when you know why you’re dressing like this, or why you’re acting in a modest fashion. Once a girl has that down, it is much easier to dress in a tznius way. Im speaking from experience. May we all rejoice with the coming of Moshiach Tzidkeinu now!

Naaseh venishma
Reply to  Agreed
June 8, 2021 9:13 pm

When accepting the torah the yidden said “first we will do, then we will listen”. As yidden and especially Chabad chassidim, we follow Halacha because that’s what Hashem wants us to do. We keep shabbos, kosher, Tznius all mitzvos even when we don’t fully understand why. Then we take the time using so many available resources to find out why. The minute we start rationalizing why breaking Halacha is ok, we have a deeeeeep problem that goes way beyond external clothing. So this just shows how lack of Tznius is a reflection of a person’s inner struggles with following Halacha-… Read more »

Wish I didn’t have to learn the hard way.
June 7, 2021 10:51 pm

It’s not easy.
But knowing that each generation does a little less,……. it is so important to set a strong example.
Best way to express our love for our grandchildren!

Impressive!
June 7, 2021 11:09 pm

A long but well written article!
Thank you!
Understanding and encouraging!

Couldn’t say it better
June 7, 2021 11:16 pm

A bomb I feel the exact way! Thank you for bringing it up for all to understand and realize we live in a community where our actions affect all those around us! Our daughters for sure and for heaven sake why do our sons have to see this way of dress down the street it’s simply not fair. We are a community and takes a village to raise children mothers we need to step up to our role and get our act together!!!!

Sons
Reply to  Couldn’t say it better
June 8, 2021 2:35 pm

I understand what you’re saying, but your son will see these things eventually as he grows up. If we want to make change it’s important to not revolve the change around making other people comfortable, as that takes empowerment out of the equation and makes it feel more like a favor.

STOP!
June 7, 2021 11:20 pm

Please stop preaching that the measure of a girl’s yiras shamayim is the clothing on her body!
We all know it’s not true! Yiras shamayim is not defined by skin coverage; it’s defined by the inner integrity and honesty of an individual. And, yes, we know people who are essentially honest G-d-fearing people, and people who are as dishonest as possible, and it has NOTHING to do with clothing on the body!!

Reverse
Reply to  STOP!
June 8, 2021 1:03 am

yiras Shomayim IS judged on externals , hence, the people who don’t act with honesty, do not indeed possess enough Yiras Shomayim, despite being religious. We all have a YH, so no reason for one to judge another; only to oneself we can look to evaluate and correct.

The Rebbe's words
Reply to  STOP!
June 8, 2021 1:03 am

It is actually the Rebbe himself who defined Tznius as the אבן הבוחן – the litmus test – of a woman’s Yiras Shomayim. (In a Yechidus)

Sorry but...
Reply to  STOP!
June 8, 2021 2:01 am

Unfortunately this is still a mitzvah and an extremely important one too. Even if it doesn’t show everything about a person, it shows how much they care about Torah.

Wow
Reply to  STOP!
June 8, 2021 11:02 am

We all know very well that this “it’s all about the inside” is just a excuse people like to use… your saying that women with untzniyus clothes are perhaps big Chasiddim on the inside???? Cmon man…

It’s a struggle
Reply to  Wow
June 9, 2021 12:02 am

I know many people who struggle with tznius but are Chassidim in other ways. One doesn’t contradict the other, and just one is not enough. But writing someone off as not being a chossid on the inside because of their chitzonius is unfair and not a yiddishkeit concept.

Yes
Reply to  Wow
June 9, 2021 12:31 pm

Yes! Some people have the personal struggle of tznius, yet amazing chassidim! You cant judge from externals

Thank you!
Reply to  STOP!
June 8, 2021 2:36 pm

Could not agree more. We can appreciate the value in modesty while ALSO appreciating the value of spirituality. They are not mutually exclusive and one is not a definite indicator of the other.

You can drop frumkeit entirely
Reply to  STOP!
June 8, 2021 4:06 pm

If you’re only concern is inner integrity and honesty – so you’d probably wouldn’t bat an eyelash if they would drop frumkeit entirely and marry out? We know people who “are essentially honest G-d-fearing people”, just that they married out and drive to work on shabbos, and many dishonest people who are frum.
So, by your argument…?

We have standards.

Food for thought
Reply to  You can drop frumkeit entirely
June 8, 2021 5:08 pm

The Rebbe loved and respected every Gd fearing person. If there is any place for people who have experienced divergence in their lives; it is Chabad. We don’t send people away. Yes, we can have standards for ourselves and hopes for others, but it is unjust to human nature and the complexity of life experiences to judge everyone against the same mark stick.

WRONG!
Reply to  STOP!
June 8, 2021 8:02 pm

it is true that yiras shamayim is not defined by clothing but there is still clear Halocho. Halocho says you must dress in a tzniusdiker way weather or not iu feel that way. Also fake it till u make it is something we belive in!

um?
Reply to  STOP!
June 13, 2021 9:06 pm

if you were truly a yirei shamayim you would understand that covering your body has everything to do with it. you wouldnt be insecure about it because you wld know that its right. not being tznius doenst mean you dont have integrity but if you want to show that you do, its expressed in externals.

Tights
June 7, 2021 11:31 pm

I agree with the author, but what about forcing 3 year old girls to wear tights in the summer? Where is the source for that tznius rule?? Adding to halacha can also have a negative impact

Halacha
Reply to  Tights
June 8, 2021 1:05 am

According to the Halachic opinion followed by the Rebbe, tznius applies fully from 3. Young girls who jump and play are bound to have their skirts or dresses come up. Hence tights as the way to ensure they remain properly covered.

It’s us
Reply to  Halacha
June 8, 2021 7:31 am

It’s not the kids that are bothered by the tights in most cases. It’s us, the mothers. If you make it exciting for the girls, they will happily wear them.

So true
Reply to  It’s us
June 8, 2021 12:01 pm

I expected my daughters to wear tights from age 3 and they did because this is how Mommy dresses.

Forcing??
Reply to  Tights
June 8, 2021 5:12 am

The girl’s attitude is much dependent on the mothers! Yes, if she is ‘forced’ to wear tights, she’ll hate them. But if tights are a fact, and an integral part of an outfit just as a skirt and shirt, there’s nothing to argue about.
Sleeves would also be hot and annoying if they were optional.

From a Bochur
June 7, 2021 11:49 pm

Thank you for bringing this to the communities attention. Not only for your daughters but for your sons too. We are told by Mashpim not to walk down kingston ave summer time for tznius purposes why does this make sense in the Rebbes shechuna.
A Bochur

Oyyy
Reply to  From a Bochur
June 8, 2021 1:09 am

If you can’t control yourself as a bochur on Kingston ave……. you’re in for a real treat in the real world.

Maybe start looking for mashpi’im who figured out how to control themselves on Kingston and beyond and get direction for them how to normally go about your life.

quick Conclusions
Reply to  Oyyy
June 8, 2021 4:34 am

He never said that he can’t control himself, but was just saying that the same way you shouldn’t walk to a beach, due to the untnziusdike things that will be seen there, you also shouldn’t walk down Kingston.
‏לפני עיוור לא תתן מכשול

Oyyy
Reply to  quick Conclusions
June 8, 2021 11:55 am

So Kingston has the same level of pritzus as a beach? Should I walk down Albany or Brooklyn instead?

Regarding “Lifnei Iver…” this type of rhetoric calls for the same behavior as Muslims who wear the Burkas, so that the men won’t “stumble”……. Have some self control and maybe walk down Kingston to get some practice on Shmiras Ainayim.

Vey
Reply to  Oyyy
June 8, 2021 2:12 pm

So if Kingston doesn’t have the exact same pritzus as the beach, then it’s OK?
What would be so horrible about walking down another street?

Lifnei Iver has nothing to do with being like Muslems (it’s actually them, taking cues from Torah), .

What are men and boys expected to do, when some of those not dressing properly might in some cases, be their own mothers, who don’t even have enough self control to follow the halachas of how they should dress?

Unpopular opinion
Reply to  Oyyy
June 8, 2021 2:43 pm

Very much agreed, my friend. Sheltering does not change anything, it only causes a divide and in my opinion breeds the anxiety that we see surrounding shaduchim and social skills. Obviously there is Halcha for a reason and people should stay within their gender groups until marriage.. but creating blame and animosity between the two only makes them wary of each other. If they don’t walk on Kingston, they’ll see it in the subway. This is the reality of our modern day world and we should be helping the boys understand that instead of making out the girls who struggle… Read more »

This isn't about sheltering
Reply to  Unpopular opinion
June 9, 2021 11:14 am

Nor is it about blaming.
It’s about following halacha.
Trying to conflate it with other ideas, is just another way of making excuses, not to follow halacha.

Nisayon
Reply to  Oyyy
June 8, 2021 7:17 am

It’s not about being able to “control yourself”, the issue is why is walking down Kingston ave have to be a Nisayon? we Say every morning “Ve’al Tevienu Lo Lidei Nisayon” for a reason, regardless of our self control abilities….

Oyyy
Reply to  Nisayon
June 8, 2021 11:56 am

The world is one big “Nisayon”…….Welcome!

Vey
Reply to  Oyyy
June 8, 2021 2:14 pm

So it’s OK to contribute to the problem?
Where does Torah, say that?

Crown Heights
Reply to  Oyyy
June 8, 2021 7:41 am

As a woman I totally disagree with you, it’s nothing what to do with the guy that cannot control himself . I hate walking on Kingston Avenue for the same reason is Despicable what goes on here in the summer, have we lost all our identity as a frum woman?

Hm.
Reply to  From a Bochur
June 11, 2021 10:14 am

Just saying, often when girls are told to be tznius because the bachurim shouldnt be seeing them that way, they feel very resentful.
Please teach girls about the aspect of tznius that is about personal dignity, rather than “cover yourself up so the guys dont have to see”

A husband who is struggling
June 7, 2021 11:49 pm

TY for bringing this up and in such a refined manner

I struggle with how to convey these sentiments to my spouse ..and am often conflicted if it is even my role ?

With sensitivity
Reply to  A husband who is struggling
June 8, 2021 1:11 am

This is a common and painful situation. While each individual should certainly consult his personal Mashpia, a generally helpful approach is to have a sensitive conversation with your spouse that emphasizes her beautiful qualities and Yiras Shomayim and how it would mean a lot to you to have your children see her real self expressed outwardly in her dress. Offer support, compliments, encouragement, a generous gift of money toward new clothing etc. Make it clear you aren’t judging her for her challenge; you’re just asking for something that would mean a lot to you.

Good idea.
Reply to  With sensitivity
June 8, 2021 7:43 am

But first think about all her qualities. Then think about yours. And then talk to her when you’ve become perfect, so that you can sensitively tell her to also become perfect.

Reply to Good Idea
Reply to  Good idea.
June 8, 2021 12:04 pm

That’s a ridiculous excuse. We’re not talking about perfection, we’re talking about one Mitzvah.

angel
Reply to  Good idea.
June 9, 2021 9:36 am

what kind of marriage are you in that you only listen to your husband if he is a malach?

No, no, no
Reply to  A husband who is struggling
June 8, 2021 7:03 am

It’s not your role. Worry about yourself.

Are you a Rav?
Reply to  No, no, no
June 8, 2021 10:51 am

How do you know there is not punishment in the next world for his living in an environment where things are done against halacha, that he tried to do nothing, about?
Just being in a while where others talk during davening, carries significant consequences according to halachas I have seen posted on the walls, in some shules.

Wow
Reply to  No, no, no
June 8, 2021 11:05 am

It very much is his role, though of course it has to be done in a acceptable and sensitive manner… just as it’s his role to provide for her physically, don’t forget that they are raising a family TOGETHER, and you can’t make a hole under YOUR seat of the boat without affecting the whole boat…

Lift Yourself
Reply to  No, no, no
June 8, 2021 2:54 pm

Agreed.
Once the two of you are in sync, this (speaking about it) will come naturally. As long as its a struggle for you, it will be a struggle for her to accept it. Become a better person and everything will be lifted up with you.

Wife
Reply to  A husband who is struggling
June 8, 2021 2:44 pm

If it’s important to you, there are ways to convey it to your wife without her feeling it’s being forced upon her or you being judgemental. Go out of your way to compliment her when she’s dressed tznius, make her feel good about herself and boost her self esteem. I know what kind of clothes my husband likes and even if it’s not something that I love I wear it extra for him.

Talk with her
Reply to  A husband who is struggling
June 8, 2021 10:47 pm

Maybe something is bothering her that you’re doing. Maybe something is bothering her that you’re doing, Have a talk with her and then you could both compromise on listening to each other. Did you marry her that way? If yes, then you’re trying to change her & that’s wrong.

A present before gimmel tamuz
June 7, 2021 11:50 pm

Probably the most practical article as a preparation for gimmel Tamuz, the Rebbes daughters deserve to look way more dignified!!

Start focusing on Pnimius
June 8, 2021 1:06 am

Instead of having awkward conversations with young girls heading off to camp in hopes to inspire them to change the wardrobe their parents bought them, have a discussion with the girls about what it means to be a chosid, tell them inspirational stories, bring the light of chassidus to them, and be default they will come to good judgement themselves. The “Tznius talk” never encouraged anyone to start keeping it, if anything on the contrary it’s pushed thousands of girls away…….. The problem with the above suggestion of starting with pnimiyus and it leading to the chitzonius is, that it… Read more »

Could not agree more
Reply to  Start focusing on Pnimius
June 8, 2021 2:48 pm

This!! If kids don’t have a foundation, they will think “why am I even doing this?” This was basically my upbringing and I had to step away from religiosity and re-accept is as something I understand and I wanted, before I was able to re-take on the physical connections again. Cannot stress the importance of this comment enough.

planting doubts and questioning
June 8, 2021 1:22 am

It’s our crafty yetzer hora not allowing the truth to seep it. Questioning the validity of halacha is the yetzer horah specialty. Let’s look up the halacha and respond intelligently, not emotionally or personally, before commenting on every article that someone posts. There is truth in what the author has to say. Face up to it in a mature manner.

While I understand what you’re saying..
Reply to  planting doubts and questioning
June 8, 2021 2:49 pm

Emotions is the reality of humans.. and Gd created us with emotions KNOWING it will somehow interfere with our service to him, yet still granted them to us. My personal opinion is that the emotional journey of taking things upon yourself, as opposed to just accepting things placed on you, is a bit part of Hashem’s nachas for us.

Well said
June 8, 2021 2:08 am

And while were at it….how about leggings????

What’s wrong with leggings?
Reply to  Well said
June 8, 2021 3:11 pm

As long as the skirt is long enough and there’s no gap with the socks there is absolutely nothing wrong with leggings. Why are people so against them?

A few things....
Reply to  What’s wrong with leggings?
June 8, 2021 5:14 pm

What’s wrong with leggings…..
1)they go contrary to “hatznea leches”
2) they are like pants
3) they are a very non eidel look
We have lost our sensitivity to what a refined and Jewish look is.
I’m all for comfort. Not when it goes against whats right though.

Agreed. And also:
Reply to  A few things....
June 8, 2021 7:59 pm

And
4. They create (as been unfortunately demonstrated) an opening to wearing leggings with a gap or without socks at all. In other words, they are inviting a clear breach of halacha.

halacha and hashkafa
Reply to  A few things....
June 8, 2021 9:31 pm

Its important to separate halacha from hashkafa. We discuss this topic often in my eighth grade class. There is nothing halachically wrong with wearing leggings instead of tights as long as no skin shows. However its not an aidel look. Being tznius is a spectrum from halachically acceptable to very aidel. Its not right to expect everyone to be at the aidel end of the spectrum. When we discuss it in class, we discuss that each of us has different challanges and we are on different places on the tznius spectrum and that as chassidim we work on ourselves to… Read more »

Halacha on leggings
Reply to  halacha and hashkafa
June 8, 2021 11:38 pm

See the psak of the Beis Din of CH on leggings. Sometimes what we consider a question of aidelkeit and sensitivity is also halacha.
https://asktherav.com/1482-is-it-a-halachic-issue-for-a-woman-to-wear-leggings-if-the-leggings/#more-5977

I don't understand
Reply to  Halacha on leggings
June 9, 2021 9:40 am

Someone wrote about having worn a hippy-dippy skirt to the ground in the past, before she began to dress in a way that more closely conformed to the hassidish ideal. The ask-the-rav answer you post above implies that a hippy-dippy skirt to the ground + leggings is acceptable. (Unless I have misunderstood, which could be.)

Refined long skirt
Reply to  I don't understand
June 9, 2021 11:14 pm

There are refined, classy ankle-length skirts and I believe the Rav is saying that technically one can wear leggings under those for comfort or warmth and they won’t be noticeable as such.

halacha and hashkafa
Reply to  Halacha on leggings
June 17, 2021 11:10 pm

If you read it again carefully, Rabbi Braun doesnt assur leggings.

He says that leggings are not aidel (which I said already) and its not ok to wear them *if you can tell that they are leggings*.

So in other words, its not aidel but not assur if you cant tell that they are leggings. Which is what most jh/high school girls are asking about.

Yes!!
Reply to  What’s wrong with leggings?
June 8, 2021 6:16 pm

100% agree!

what about them?
Reply to  Well said
June 14, 2021 8:01 pm

Black leggings with no gap between the leggings and the socks are just as tznius as balck tights – in fact, sometimes you wouldnt even know they were leggings if not for the seam down the side. Most girls i know prefer leggings simply because they are more comfortable. (Disclaimer: I’m not from CH, I dont know how leggings are worn there) And please, please start with actual halacha before moving on to things that are less “aidel” or that you think of as “pants” because you are older than 30. If girls would be taught the difference between what… Read more »

Applicational to ALL situations!
June 8, 2021 2:35 am

How sweet of the author to encourage others “not to judge” and give another mother the ‘benefit of doubt” this applies equally if not MORE so in ANY medical decisions that same mother makes for HER children! This is TRUE Ahavas Yisrael!

Both sides have to give-in accordance with halacha
June 8, 2021 6:22 am

I went to Bais Rivka and to Camp Emunah – many years ago. My granddaughters are now in that position B”H. Somehow, although the shulchan aruch stayed the same, the tznius rules (in the name of halacha) became more stringent. IMHO this is what many girls struggle with and it sends them, unfortunately, to the left. We wore knee socks to school (check out old BR class pics). Some knees peeked between the hemline and sockline. However, we were proud that we were tzanua! We didn’t resent the rules. Where in halacha is it written that a below knee skirt,… Read more »

Growing doesn't have to painful

As a community we have learned a lot over the years and upgraded our understanding of proper halacha observance. Many details were unknown or neglected in the past unfortunately due to lack of education (especially for women) and oppression. With the utmost respect for the Yiras Shomayim and mesiras nefesh of our grandmothers and great grandmothers – yes, there are always details in halacha where we learn more and should upgrade accordingly.
Higher level of tznius isn’t hurting anyone. It’s all about the messaging and presentation.
Mothers, whether your daughters embrace tznius or resent it is largely your choice.

Tights are very constricting
Reply to  Growing doesn't have to painful
June 8, 2021 2:40 pm

Maybe it’s easy for some women, but I cannot wear anything except my maternity leggings and socks. Too constricting and the material is not a natural material- very uncomfortable

It's not always easy
Reply to  Tights are very constricting
June 8, 2021 8:02 pm

Yiddishkeit has always involved mesiras nefesh
No one said it’s easy to keep the mitzvos. We all have some that come more naturally than others. This is when we have the opportunity to demonstrate our real commitment to Hashem.

Yes
Reply to  It's not always easy
June 9, 2021 12:44 pm

But leggings are not against halacha,

Stop
June 8, 2021 7:05 am

When you stop making tznius the be all and end all of a woman, people will take it more seriously. Women and girls can see through the shtick and see how false it is, so they push back. Tznius IS just one mitzvah. Worry about some others for a change.

Agreed
Reply to  Stop
June 8, 2021 2:51 pm

Tznius comes naturally with a strong foundation which we have yet to establish in this generation…

halacha and hashkafa
Reply to  Stop
June 8, 2021 9:42 pm

Tznius is actually just ONE mitzvah… of three mitzvos given to women. Tznius is a crucial component of Tahras hamishpacha which is the foundation for a future child’s connection to Hashem.

So yes, its just one mitzvah… that is the foundation for all of your childrens mitzvos.

A mother's job
June 8, 2021 8:40 am

I recently had an uncomfortable situation where I, an engaged bochur, had to be the one to have a serious tzniyus conversation with my kalleh. “My mother does this” yeah but halacha and rabbonim say otherwise. These are things the mothers should be modelling and setting an example for. There’s no reason I should be the one discussing how she should be covering her hair. It should be a given.

You’re her chosson
Reply to  A mother's job
June 8, 2021 2:53 pm

Prepare to have talks like this..

Dude
Reply to  A mother's job
June 8, 2021 6:02 pm

Please. PLEASE. Stop for a second and think about how much thought you have put into tznius vs. how much she has. Please say something like “hey, I’m sorry I got angry/defensive/demanding. I realize you have probably thought about this a lot and I really want to hear your perspective.”

It’s not your place to tell your wife how to dress and for your marriage’s sake I hope you guys figure this out soon.

It certainly is his concern
Reply to  Dude
June 8, 2021 8:07 pm

The one condition the Rebbe always made for giving his approval for a shidduch was “if the two of them will agree together to establish their home on the foundation of Torah and Mitzvos.”
Discussing one important issue doesn’t discount the others. They are two halves of a neshama and their avidas Hashem is intertwined. It is her concern that he davens and learns and his concern that she keeps a kosher kitchen, tahara, tznius etc.
Of course, using a positive approach is always ideal, but before marriage is the time to clarify expectations and goals.

Dina
June 8, 2021 9:54 am

Why did tznius become a bad word.
Because the teachers or some mashpim either dress horrible or are not nice. Our girls internalize and associate it as ugly…the best thing to do for our girls is for teachers to dress well and be kind and caring…just be a good example.

Yes!!
Reply to  Dina
June 8, 2021 2:56 pm

We are taught modesty is beautiful but face the ultimate paradox as children when we see un-kind teachers praised for something so external.. we then believe tznius is only an external matter.. and not only that, but that tznius can be a facade.

💯 spot on article
June 8, 2021 10:06 am

Totally in line with our Rebbes teachings- if you won’t do it for yourself at least do it for your children and at least do it in respect to the Rebbe whom you represent and in whose neighborhood you live in.

LA Morah
June 8, 2021 10:47 am

It’s painfully clear that some would like to use the “it matters more if you’re a good person” excuse to dress however they want. Let’s think clearly. A frum person poshut has kabbolis ol and follows the whole Torah and not just the parts we choose.

People have areas of struggle
Reply to  LA Morah
June 8, 2021 2:58 pm

They are not mutually exclusive. Some people struggle with dress but are spiritual beings and they shouldn’t feel like any less of a jew. Hashem gave us 613 mitzvos so if we can’t do one, we have another 612 to try at. 🙂

That’s so wrong
Reply to  People have areas of struggle
June 8, 2021 11:58 pm

How could you say each one is special and unique that’s not how it goes I’ll do you one instead of another

Tznius
June 8, 2021 11:22 am

Whoever says Tznius is all abt the men- is wrong! That is not what u tell girls when u teach them abt tznius.
It has nothing to do with the men.
U cant force ppl to dress tznius they have to want to. Also no one really teaches why tznius is so important in a good way. It’s like men men men- and you have to do it.

Learn and teach
Reply to  Tznius
June 8, 2021 1:03 pm

There is a lot of wonderful material out there on tznius lately. Be part of the solution. Learn what tznius is, why it is so important, and share it with others.

Agreed
Reply to  Tznius
June 8, 2021 3:00 pm

Making it about men is a huge issue.. I remember as a teenager being very very opposed to that idea.. in fact it probably even encouraged my dip in modesty as I felt like “if I’m not even doing this for myself, who am I doing this for? The random bochur on the street?”

Encourage camp uniforms
June 8, 2021 11:25 am

Same cotton shirts, skirts, knee socks, stockings. And summer hats it’s will be cheaper to buy it from China then each family to pay for the summer camp wardrobe a lot.

thats a bad idea
Reply to  Encourage camp uniforms
June 8, 2021 12:45 pm

We are talking about kids here, they have uniforms all year long, let them wear what they want (within halachik/hashkafik parameters)
I think the whole white shirts-black pants in yeshiva for boys was a big mistake. its only been around for 10-15 years.

Beautiful article
June 8, 2021 11:36 am

I really appreciate how this article is written . The point about tznius being a private or personal matter yet it is a very public matter because of the tremendous effect it has on others, demonstrates that its not just an individual’s decision to do as one pleases- which unfortunately is one of the general problems in the world today. The author says “tznius is a public statement about one’s Yiddishkeit and Chassishkeit.
I would add a lack of tznius for a frum person reflects a lack of knowledge, wisdom, understanding, education, and refinement.

Shmiras Ainayim
June 8, 2021 11:58 am

“If you look once you’re human, if you turn around to look again, you’re a chazir” – Anonymous

Tights
June 8, 2021 5:11 pm

I cannot see a 3 yr old wearing tights when it’s 90 degrees. I can see wearing longer shorts and a dress on top. And short socks. Or sandals. Its a 3 yr old in the heat for heavens sake.

what you don't know...
Reply to  Tights
June 8, 2021 8:39 pm

hey, I know quite a few children who from a very young age (2 1/2 and up) will insist only on tights even against their parents wardrobe plans.
so to sum it up, religious looking dress code is not always imposed on children sometimes they chose it for themselves

Ridiculous
June 8, 2021 5:57 pm

Honestly, it is inappropriate to be telling other people how to dress and act. If someone feels connected to the Rebbe and his teachings, they will act accordingly, and heckling those who don’t certainly doesn’t help. It’s people like these that cause the tremendous numbers of children to have a negative taste of yiddishkeit. I find it personally offensive for there to be “bochurim” commenting how they think they have a right to tell women how to dress on Kingston. If you have a problem with it, go elsewhere. It is highly inappropriate and not for you to decide how… Read more »

Need more 100% cotton
June 8, 2021 7:37 pm

I agree 100% with dressing tznius but I can’t understand why there is lack of consideration for clothing made out of 100% cotton. Most of the companies that design and sell clothing with frum girls and women in mind use poly rayon modal blends. While they are “supersoft” and they are promoted by all the Instagram influencers, these frocks are shvitz factories. I hope cotton t shirt type comfy clothing will be made in 3/4 sleeves and modest skirt lengths. Chani, do you chap?

Sam I Am
June 8, 2021 9:19 pm

As a male, I believe I could be 105% frum and totally chassidish even if I don’t externally wear a yarmulka or tzitsis.

Clothes don’t define me.

Same with other externals like the beard I removed.

The inside matters, not outside trappings.

My heart and soul are mikushar to chassidishkeit, even when I wear shorts and flip flops.

So don’t judge my appearances.

The quality of the wine is not determined by the bottle!

That might be true...
Reply to  Sam I Am
June 9, 2021 11:09 am

Only if there is no halacha of any kind, that you must wear a yalmulka or tsitis or if somehow, you could wear a yalmulka internally.

What about as a friend
June 9, 2021 3:30 pm

I am feeling so constricted right now, my best friend whom I have known since I was born we were always 100% tznius, then these last like 2 years have just been bad, going down hill, and no, I have not said or done anything. I did not know if it was my place, like its her mothers job right? but it is SOOO SOOO HARD!!! I want to just go and give her a hug and wish she would just go back to the way it was, and we both know about it and we are just not discussing… Read more »

Start Somewhere
June 10, 2021 4:48 am

Firstly I would like to applaud the writer of the article. The article treats a sensitive and difficult subject in a sensitive way. Being quite familiar with this particular challenge as both a mother of daughters and teacher of teenagers I would like to mention a few points. Yes I do agree that Pnimiyous is the most important aspect, but how do we get there? Perhaps by strengthening our external – our Chitzoniyous the Pnimiyous will be strengthened. Our acceptance of the Torah was “we will do and we will listen” [understand]. , not the reverse. The Rebbe in the… Read more »

Start Somewhere to oy
June 10, 2021 5:14 am

With all due respect the third paragraph of the Shma clearly states that one should not turn after ones heart and eyes. What we see does impact.So I understand being told to avoid places and billboards that are offensive to our way of life. I work in a non Chabad girls’ mosed and the children and teachers are all tzniuzdik. The teachers are beautifully dressed and they do acknowledge all the wonderful things and mivtzoim we do, so they ask why Chabad women are lax in tzniyus. What answer can I give?? May Hashem give us all the strength to… Read more »

for the men reading this article :)
June 10, 2021 11:01 am

BH Hi Guys, Here’s my take – Anyone that has read the beginning of kitzur shulchan aruch knows that tznius is equal for men and women, and is because HASHEM is constantly watching us, so just like in front of a physical king we would cover our bodies, so too ALWAYS, in our bedrooms, in the bathroom. We are always in front of Him baruch Hu, and therefore our bodies should always be covered. Especially now, in the days of Moshiach, within a split second, we will be standing in front of Moshiach tzidkeinu… Obviously, the same is for women,… Read more »

This is so beautifully written
June 13, 2021 1:42 am

Thank you for the inspiration!!

Negative enforcement of tznius
June 13, 2021 5:55 pm

I have seen the negative way the camps and schools enforce tznius. Standing in front of the dining hall with a box of safety pins. That does not help anyone in the long run and only makes children resentful. Tznius is given way too much emphasis and negative attention.

Tznius is important
Reply to  Negative enforcement of tznius
June 16, 2021 9:45 am

Saying it’s not, is wrong

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