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Tuesday, 23 Tishri, 5780
  |  October 22, 2019

Beis Din Orders Get-Refuser Fired

An Israeli Beis Din has ordered the Egged bus company to fire one of its employees because of his refusal to divorce his wife. Full Story

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We are 2019 why we still have Agunot ?
Guest
We are 2019 why we still have Agunot ?

Wise men of the Beis Din need to find a way to treat women better and support women who went through abusive marriage … or Mary all women only with a prenup as a must !
Women are not slaves

Get Refusal
Guest
Get Refusal

Get refusal is a horrific thing and causes pain to many involved

Worse than get refusal is when one spouse “gives up” and deems things hopeless and refuses to try to make peace even though the other spouse is willing to do anything to fix the marriage…

Hopefully in this case it was get refusal in its purest form

Yes!
Guest
Yes!

This should be done in the US too.
Get refusal is abuse!

Miriam Wrote
Guest
Miriam Wrote

Would love to divorce my loser abusive husband but alas he cant get fired, BECAUSE HE DOESNT WORK !!!

Ty for posting
Guest
Ty for posting

Many get refusers don’t work.
It’s a big problem.

Not just in Israel
Guest
Not just in Israel

We have this issue right here in CH.
The apathy is appalling.
Until this plague hits a fellow family member, people don’t understand the immensity of the pain.
If you know of someone in this situation, it is pikuach nefesh and pidyon shivuyim to help them and save them from captivity.

Of Note
Guest
Of Note

Every case is different and has its own details and often times actually most of the time things results because of both parties not just one

To #1
Guest
To #1

Because the wise men of the Beis Din are wise enough to know what’s within their purview and what’s not. Prenups that require the husband to give a get are very halachically problematic, and can result in the get being invalid – which is worse than no get at all.

Jewish Marriage
Guest
Jewish Marriage

It is important to remember that every Jewish match is made by God himself even the ones where that seems impossible and everything and everything should be done to try to fix a Jewish marriage even when one side refuses this is the Jewish way

For the commentators urging to keep “working on the marriage”
Guest
For the commentators urging to keep “working on the marriage”

You have no idea what it is like to suffer under abuse of a spouse. And most of the time outsiders have NO CLUE it is happening, so chances are you would never KNOW the terrible details. DON’T be so quick to judge people that “give up” on their marriages.

Nice
Guest
Nice

Nice to see that COL is quoting Haaretz and portraying one sided shmutz. Does he have access to the kids? This may not be right but your turning yourself into the National Enquirer isn’t either. Shame on you!

Thanks #7
Guest
Thanks #7

Let’s not forget, there are 2 sides to every story!

Chana
Guest
Chana

What would u do if u realize that the one u marry is full of debts

To #9
Guest
To #9

You are very wrong. If you run into the street in front of a speeding truck, you might end up very dead even if that wasn’t your destiny. Your reckless free choice conf cause your early demise. When agunot went to the Alter Rebbe he didn’t tell them “even the ones where that seems impossible and everything and everything should be done to try to fix a Jewish marriage even when one side refuses this is the Jewish way”. No. He price that the husband who was acting like he was crazy was actually fit to give a get, and… Read more »

To number 9
Guest
To number 9

The Jewish way is to not suffer with abuse and torment.
If one spouse is unwilling to get help for any issues that are going on, it is simply not manageable. A marriage involves two willing parties.
In marriages where one spouse is abusive, the abusive spouse is usually the one that does not cooperate and agree to seek help.
Your suggestion to.stay in a marriage that is” G-d chosen” at any cost is a dangerous suggestion and horrible advice.
Educate yourself on get refusal

Do not stand idly by if you witness injustice
Guest
Do not stand idly by if you witness injustice

הציווי “לֹא תַעֲמֹד עַל דַּם רֵעֶךָ” (ויקרא יט 16) אוסר על אדם להתעלם מזולתו הנמצא בסכנת חיים ומחייב אותו לעשות ככל יכולתו כדי להצילו

Of note
Guest
Of note

In general cases, it takes two to tango.
The exception is when dealing with abusive situations.
In an abusive marriage (verbal emotional physical etc.)there is the abuser and the victim.That is the dynamic of the relationship.
The victim in an abusive marriage is not the cause of the divorce.He/she left because she/he had to leave the marriage for her safety of her/him and the children.

to 9 and everyone
Guest
to 9 and everyone

Everyone has issues and they are usually none of our business. It is true that a Jewish marriage is very precious and everything that could be done to save it should be tried. This can’t always be done be strangers and often also not by neighbors and friends. But if you think you can intervene, it is a big mitzvah. Unfortunately not always is it possible to make things work. In that case remember that it says that even the mizbeach sheds tears. Cry along. Anyone who can’t be of positive influence who sticks his nose in is just looking… Read more »

Dont be so quick to judge !
Guest
Dont be so quick to judge !

I know one ‘ Aguna ‘ loves her situation .
she loves the sympathy and support and does everything to sabotage receiving her get. She doesn’t ever want to get married again , doesn’t want her children , loves living on her own but nebach I’m an aguna so I’m entitled !
It’s the kids who suffer !

To#9
Guest
To#9

Not if there’s abuse! There is a reason why the Torah allows divorce.

A question for # 9
Guest
A question for # 9

I am sincerely curious : Are you blessed with a basically normal marriage to a basically normal person & so your advice is based on what is written in the books about what is “the Jewish way” or is every day of your life with an abusive spouse a living gehenim and this is the conclusion you have come to after super human avoda ? I presume that you (and other commentators) understand that these are radically different experiences.

Comment 18
Guest
Comment 18

100%
The Rebbe told us what to do when we need guidance.
Not listening to hazmanos from a Beis Din is quite severe.
A mesarev bedin is a serious title to be walking around with.
Hashem yishmor

To 9
Guest
To 9

People speak from their own experiences.
Unless you are knowledgeable in addiction, mental illness and abuse ,one can not advise people what to do and whether or not they should stay in a dysfunctional marriage.
Get educated about it.Don’t wait until it is a close family member or friend that is going through this,G-d forbid.

 RE #9
Guest
RE #9

Hashem doesn’t give someone a situation they can’t handle in a POSITIVE way…

ABUSE can be dealt with and fixed and cured with the right dedication

The Rebbe encouraged people to see and envision that any situation can be transformed into Good, not through breaking…but through fixing

Believing Hashem can DO ANYTHING & FIX ANYTHING is the key

Blame it on the Movies
Guest
Blame it on the Movies

Secular culture teaches that marriage can be bliss and Easy…

A real marriage involves dealing with extreme difficulties and a lot of hard wark…often the best marriages involve dealing with serious problems and internal conflict

Some older people can tell you they never could have imagined what they went through with their spouse but their commitment to never see things as impossible or unfixable kept them together…personality issues, mental illness and abuse connected with financial ups and downs, etc…

Marriage is very hard, not like they teach in the movies

Intentions are Important
Guest
Intentions are Important

Sometimes a spouse does wrong (abuse, etc.) And wants to stop and get help…then they other spouse says it’s too late or its unfixable…give me a get…is that fair????

Compromise is key
Guest
Compromise is key

So many Agunos would not be Agunos if they acted in a fair and reasonable manner.
I have a friend who is in such a situation where his wife is extorting him for a large amount of money and refusing to allow him to see their kids. He gets no sympathy from anyone despite the fact that he is the fair and reasonable one.

I am a friend of a  woman in the community who was abused
Guest
I am a friend of a woman in the community who was abused

It was so hard to get her gett and she was so abused and suffered mentally and with addictions as a result that it seems as if it was an “it takes two to tango” situation. The community needs better resources for abused woman so it doesn’t get to the point where the woman looks like the crazy one. Also rabbis should encourage divorce when a woman comes to them saying she is being abused. Not every marriage should be saved or should even have been. Divorcing and leaving an abuser is terrifying and pressing charges when abuse is happening… Read more »

hello
Guest
hello

the way i understand it
nu.9 is saying everything should be done to try to fix a marriage. i dont think shes suggesting to stay in an abusive marriage as so many commentators claim she implies. All she is saying is dont leave a stone unturned to try fixing the marriage. If it cant be fixed i dont think she expects you to stay on

To #27
Guest
To #27

I guess situations can be different. In order for me to get my gett I signed a divorce agreement not in my kids best interests to say the least and he pays very little child support and he got away with abusing me without charges pressed against him and I still live in fear and I have zero evidence anyway of what he did and I lived in fear than and I live in fear now.

To 26
Guest
To 26

Fair? Really?? Abuse is not a casual mistake that can ever be overlooked. Abusers need to be tossed aside at the first sign of abuse, prosecuted if the abuse becomes physical, and must never be allowed to torment further.

Abuse
Guest
Abuse

24 you speak with ignorance Don’t use the Rebbe to push your agenda. Abuse is a mindset and sadly that doesn’t change overnight. Would the abuser go to a Domestic Abuser Program ? Most abusers will not seek help ,as they do not take responsibility for their actions. Staying in a marriage where the husband suffocates you with a pillow is not fixable ,if he doesn’t even acknowledge that he did it. When the Rebbe speaks about fixing ,the Rebbe speaks about willing partners who want to grow and evolve.Narcissistic abusers don’t fall into that category. I surely hope you… Read more »

to #25
Guest
to #25

spot on. excellent comment!
Halevai all Rabbonim would have that same approach and attitude to a marriage.
Just a warning, any Rabbonim that are involved in Gittin or Botei Dinin as Toanim may have a vested interest when it comes to marriage( as they make a Parnosa off these things) whereas a Rav or Mashpia of some sort who has no involvement in such things will by definition be much more dedicated towards the resolution of issues.

Intentions
Guest
Intentions

When one hurts another person ,they don’t get to decide how the hurting person heals ,or for how long. Each individual can decide if they think the other partner is remorseful or not. I don’t know of any women who just walked out on their marriages without processing everything beforehand. By the time a woman leaves ,she has tried all resources and options,and divorce is the last resort. I’m curious as to why you used the word abuse in parentheses. It’s not a small word. Abuse is not to be dealt with lightly. Read up about the traumas of any… Read more »

The woman is crazy !She isn't mentally stable!
Guest
The woman is crazy !She isn't mentally stable!

This is a tactic that abusers use quite often.
A very well known tactic.

What abusers don’t realize is that eventually truth always rises to the very top.
Wait for more mic drops.People are speaking out.More and more.
Today victims have evidence of the abuse witnessed.And the children are witnesses as well .The times of hiding in the shame of abuse are over.

People see who the healthy partner is,and who is moving on in a healthy manner.The healthy spouse is the one getting therapy and the abuser remains stuck in the blame game.

Truth
Guest
Truth

“You may not see them suffer like they made you suffer, but believe me, their biggest punishment is that they are who they are.”

To 27
Guest
To 27

Your comment implies that your friend isn’t granting a Gett to his wife either, because she is “extorting” him, and he gets no sympathy. If he is withholding the Gett, he is engaging in the same – if not worse – level of extortion, by refusing to give her a Gett until she concedes on the “extortion”. There’s a time and place for everything – he should grant her an unconditional Gett and not use it as a “bargaining chip”. They should settle their financial and custody matters regardless and irrespective of the Gett. If your friend is indeed engaging… Read more »

to 26 and everyone else
Guest
to 26 and everyone else

there is an entire sefer written about the topic of who can be forced to give a get. Not every time a woman wants out of her marriage can she demand a get. As mentioned in comment 18, it’s nobody’s business. The rabonim are entrusted with the power given to them by Torah to decide when the line was crossed. Once THEY decide that the husband needs to give a get, he must do so the same way he is obligated to put on tefilin. If he finds it difficult to do so and his yetser hora doesn’t let him… Read more »

To 33
Guest
To 33

If only rabbonim encouraged and helped abused spouses to leave!

Jewish Marriage PROCESS
Guest
Jewish Marriage PROCESS

In most cases there are 5-10 dates which involve over 30 hours of face-to-face time then there is an engagement. That can last anywhere from two to four months where there is also a chance to get to know each other in different situations…

You dont just wake up next to your abuser…
In Jewish marriage, we choose each other as a result of Divine Providence and intervention, the least we can do is stand by our choices by employing every possible method to try to make it work

Message from a Anash Rav
Guest
Message from a Anash Rav

My father asked me to post this:

Issues with get refusal and agunos are serious.
Nevertheless, al pi din, they are NOT issues of pikuach nefesh and pidyon shivuyim… for example you can’t break Shabbos in order to begin the get process

HE/SHE IS A JEW!!!
Guest
HE/SHE IS A JEW!!!

A Jewish spouse that abuses or does anything else that is wrong, is still a Jew…still a descendant of Avrohom, Yitzchok and Yakov and should not be thrown away and deemed hopeless. ESPECIALLY IF THIS PERSON PARTNERED WITH YOU AND G-D Almighty to create Jews

to # 41
Guest
to # 41

Anyone with a proper understanding of abuse knows that abusers can hide their true behavior very well until the other person is caught in their trap. Your quote: “You don’t just wake up next to your abuser… ” can actually be quite inaccurate. Some abuse begins as soon as the wedding is over. Also, while there may be some signs of an abuser during dating, unfortunately, not all young people are trained to notice them, and themselves may be in a state of low self-esteem etc, to think they deserve abusive treatment. While, yes, with a normal person, one should… Read more »

To 42
Guest
To 42

I think the comment was written to show severity. It wasn’t about writing a get on Shabbos.
A bissel saichel darf men haben.

If only the rabbis took the words seriously that the women/men describe ,as much as they take these comments on COL.

Rabbis are not professionals
Guest
Rabbis are not professionals

Rabonim may know halacha but are not skilled to treat serious issues such as addiction , abuse or mental illness.
A competent rav should refer these cases onward to professionals in these fields.
Countless women have been told to go back to their abusive husbands.
We don’t have to wait until it gets life threatening to help a couple in their struggles.

Friends and family are enablers
Guest
Friends and family are enablers

If you know of a friend or family member that is refusing a get,oneshould not be silent .
One should do all in his-her power to help an agunah.
Do not stand by idly at the pain of your fellow Jew.
There is no excuse for get refusal.

Shidduchim
Guest
Shidduchim

Refusing a get affects your children.
Most families don’t want to get involved with known get refusers.
Sad to punish children that way.

Watch List
Guest
Watch List

There should be a watch list with names of abusers and get refusers just like JCW.
Time to out their horrific behaviors and expose them for who they are.

To #49
Guest
To #49

How about a watch list of mothers who prevent their children from having an active relationship with their father, who make up bogus claims of abuse to prevent a normal relationship? Can we have a watch list for such monsters too?

what about
Guest
what about

that manipulates a husband? not an abusive or domineering husband but a perfectly normal and functioning husband ( albeit with faults and quirks like any human) but the wife somehow or for some reason thinks the husband may have expressed some disinterest and therefore prepares for divorce secretly, all the while pretending to still express interest. Then when the husband doesn’t cooperate she cries” gett refuser” before the husband even had/has time to get his head around what a get is and the potential ramifications for his and his kids’ future… To be sure Get refusal is a terrible thing… Read more »

In short
Guest
In short

if there was more selflessness and dedication and less SELFISHNESS and SELF cent-redness/ self serving motives surely there would be less gittin in general much less cases of “gett -refusal”

Decisions
Guest
Decisions

Most women that I have met did everything in their power to save the marriage.It is done at the last resort.
A woman who leaves an unhealthy marriage should be applauded for her strength and bravery.She should not be judged for leaving.
An unhealthy marriage is a terrible example for the children.Children repeat what they see.Sometimes leaving is the healthiest thing to do, albeit painful.

To 43
Guest
To 43

Deemed hopeless? No, of course not.

Thrown away? Yes, immediately, and at the first sign of abuse. We must teach our children to never be victims, and that some actions are unacceptable and will never be tolerated. Abusers don’t magically stop abusing, and no one deserves to be in an abusive relationship.

To #50
Guest
To #50

it’s not even possible sometimes to prove real claims of abuse, so if a woman is able to do that she’s not a monster and more likely her and her children are victims of abuse.

Abuse criteria
Guest
Abuse criteria

Allegations of abuse can be verified.
The persona and criteria for abuse or any personality disorder is published in many journals and medical textbooks.
Today much abuse that is encountered is documented by the victim and can easily be verified by Domestic Abuse Centers.

Comment 50
Guest
Comment 50

If there is indeed abuse,the mother is doing the right thing by lessening the contact.
Abuse destroys adults and children.
The children should be around the healthy parent,who models exemplary behavior.Children need role models for their future relationships.

Truth
Guest
Truth

Children are very smart.When they mature,they will see through the abuse and see for themselves who the abusive parent is.
It’s only a matter of time.
When they are adults,they will decide how much engagement they would like to have with the abusive parent.Hopefully by then they would have had therapy to help them make the correct choices about their emotional safety and wellbeing.

Definition of a get refuser
Guest
Definition of a get refuser

The definition of a get refuser is someone who is ordered by beis din to give a get.
Regardless f who is right or who is wrong.
The same way one can’t eat horse meat because torah said so, so does this man have the obligation to follow torah and give a get.
There may be situations where it’s better to give a get but as long as that has not been decided by Rabonim yet, the man is definitely not considered a get refuser.

Two sides to EVERY story
Guest
Two sides to EVERY story

There are women crying “Aguna” while refusing to listen to Rabbanim. There is no “unconditional gett” just as there is no “unconditional divorce” in court. BOTH sides need to be heard. Only once the Rabbis hear both the wife AND the husband can they Pasken about a Gett.

Rabonim
Guest
Rabonim

Never heard of a rav that deals with gittin and only speaks to one party.
They speak to both sides.

Two sides
Guest
Two sides

The woman should go to the rav as well.

The rabbi’s
Guest
The rabbi’s

They need clarify where’s the source for their decision. You don’t just flip a coin heads or tails.

X