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Thursday, 7 Kislev, 5783
  |  December 1, 2022

Badatz Crown Heights Pushes For Tznius Policies in Schools

The Beis Din of Crown Heights says it has succeeded in working with “most” of the Jewish girls schools in the neighborhood to implement “proper policies” in regards to tznius standards. Full Story

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vetting
September 5, 2022 1:17 am

Interesting how the letter starts with quotes from The Rebbe and then towards the ends veers completely off Chabad, Lubavitch or anything the Rebbe stood for! Deciding which kids belong in a community yeshiva based on their parents observance misses the point.
How about having conversations how to do shlichus-type work within our schools? Inspire our own children exactly like we were directed by the Rebbe to do so. There is a positive way to achieve a goal. Vetting families is destructive, sinas chinam, provides statuses based on arbitrary standards and will create a tragic divide amongs community members.

Reality
Reply to  vetting
September 5, 2022 2:16 am

I saw you bought into the persona created by some in Chabad of the Rebbe. The Rebbe had strong beliefs based on Torah and he was ready to fight for them.

Why
Reply to  Reality
September 5, 2022 11:28 am

Why does that mean the Rebbe was pro kicking kids out of school

Excellent
Reply to  vetting
September 5, 2022 2:36 am

What an excellent response!!

You're both right
Reply to  vetting
September 5, 2022 9:23 am

“Naturally, vetting a parent body is a delicate and serious matter and needs to be looked at seriously”
All the rabbis were saying is that something has to be done and this idea did come up, but has to be looked at seriously, and that’s because of all of the reasons you are saying. it’s definitely not a simple matter and hopefully the right decisions will be made, and everyone will be happy and healthy

Yomin Postelnik(@onlinecheder)
Reply to  vetting
September 6, 2022 6:36 pm

Exactly. The Rebbe stands for tznius. The Rebbe and even all other leaders 40 years ago praised their schools for taking and serving ALL children. The Rebbe specifically praised Lubavitcher Yeshiva as a place that serves ALL children and best raised kids knew that influencing their friends was the best thing they could do. Glad people are on to which part of this letter stands for what the Rebbe cares about and which part does not.

What? Am I reading right?
September 5, 2022 1:51 am

Tzniusvis important. But turning children away from school because of parents dress is no way the Rebbes approach

what the rabbanim REALLY meant
Reply to  What? Am I reading right?
September 5, 2022 2:04 pm

After overcoming my initial gut outrage,

I realize that clearly this must be referring to the unfiltered internet access that some girls have. And the harmfull and innapropriate videos that are shared via whatsapp. NOT someones skirt length

Girls?
Reply to  what the rabbanim REALLY meant
September 5, 2022 3:27 pm

Not boys?

worse
Reply to  Girls?
September 5, 2022 10:23 pm

Whats going on by the girls is a different issue and dealt with differently vd”l (and already addressed even if its not solved) by the boys.

please elaborate
Reply to  worse
September 6, 2022 1:42 am

We need to be educating the next generation on how to traverse the waters of the internet safely, not digitally locking them up which will only cause even the ‘best’ kids to rebel out of curiosity. Make it a non-issue by tackling the problem with kindness and treating them as people, not idiots, and they won’t even want to rebel. What’s going on with boys and girls alike is different but equal. If you believe the problems with boys have been ‘solved’ then you are very lucky to either be surrounded by the best of the best, or you have… Read more »

Yomin Postelnik(@onlinecheder)
Reply to  what the rabbanim REALLY meant
September 6, 2022 6:49 pm

It’s clear that Rabbi Osdoba Sh”Y, didn’t write this and the side line was buried in what he saw as the main points. While Lakewood, vchulu are throwing out good solid kids over perceived slights or because they don’t fit the mold, turning off all of their friends in the process, we need to stay clear of anything that sounds like that. Anyone who thinks that throwing out 30% of the community from mosdos tehoros is going to make for a stronger, more dedicated, frummer community is just plain dangerous. Tznius has to be taught, made a priority and reinforced… Read more »

Yomin Postelnik(@onlinecheder)
Reply to  what the rabbanim REALLY meant
September 6, 2022 6:53 pm

Meaning, he signed the appeal after reading the general message. The harmfulness of that one line, even if is (hopefully) being misinterpreted, ruins the message, but that fact likely went unnoticed to people who don’t hear of or deal with all the issues on a daily basis.

Tznius
September 5, 2022 2:13 am

I want to make a point about the whole tznius issue. The women and girls are told about it again and again, but somehow it doesn’t always get thru. I feel that the boys and men must be educated too!! They also need to know the sichos and importance of tznius of their wives and daughters. How many men know the sicha of kimchis? How many know how the Rebbe begged women to wear shaitels ( back in the day when they were like straw). Perhaps they wouldn’t want their wives walking out with a tichel that reveals their hair… Read more »

tznius for men
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 11:22 am

the men need to learn hilchos tznius for men! that will automatically improve the tznius of women.

Learning Torah
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 11:55 am

From what I see. Men who learn regularity Gemara & Chasidus. Wife’s and daughters will dress more Tznius

Saying the quiet part out loud
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 12:34 pm

As long as the schools make exceptions for girls and mothers from wealthy families, the schools’ credibility is compromised.

it not as easy
September 5, 2022 2:25 am

while I do not have opinion in this matter, sending kids away from school is not the best solution! While i do say tzinious needs to shape up in the community this is not the way, if you want anybody doing anything to do anything you just need to enforce the rules but saying to vet the parents is wrong. i have a feeling the badatz want the community to be more authoritarian, while some things for the committee u need to be more authoritarian but i am afraid it is gonna be like poilishe and satmar that the authoritarian… Read more »

Hmmm...
Reply to  it not as easy
September 5, 2022 4:22 am

This has nothing to do with Satmar. This has to do with a basic wakeup call, that we as ladies have a big responsibility.

Not understanding
September 5, 2022 2:33 am

If the issue is Tznius IN THE SCHOOLS, then a simple matter of ensuring that uniforms are 100% tznius and that uniforms are enforced is more than sufficient. If the issue is Tznius of STUDENTS when NOT IN SCHOOL, then either the school can make infinite rules which will be impossible to implement, or can use positive incentives and inspiration to encourage girls to raise their level of Tznius. Obviously the latter is preferable. If the issue is Tznius of ADULTS, then this is an issue that should be dealt with outside of schools, both with education and practical community… Read more »

halacha
Reply to  Not understanding
September 5, 2022 7:40 am

Socks are actually minhag hamakom, not halacha.

Such good points
Reply to  Not understanding
September 5, 2022 9:18 am

I just had a camper tell me that she came from out of town and was so excited to shop in a tznius clothes store. She was so disappointed when all the dresses she wanted were made to be not tznius with the sleeves being way too short and necklines too low. That should not be the shopping experience in CH.

Sara
September 5, 2022 3:23 am

how many of my class mates went through the system dressed and acted chassidush and now that they are out of the system they are no longer frum. We were lectured and punished if we were not modest. Fear and lecturing only go so far.

Sad
Reply to  Sara
September 5, 2022 7:48 am

This is so sad. However, it should teach us some important lessons! If what we have is precious, valuable, then let’s focus on that a thousand times more, and address the negative in a sensitive kind, individual way. Shaming, embarrassing, attempting to exclude- these are not a good idea. It seems like it will help, but only if the goal is to control, to make the rule enforcers feel in control. If the goal is to inspire, teach, this is not effective.

Reality check
Reply to  Sara
September 5, 2022 8:23 am

There are many other communities that are not strictly chasidic that do lecture and gently told about proper dress/tznius and seem to be fine, frum, tznius jews. No need to punish. Just strictly enforced in the schools. School rules are school rules. Whether in a public school, private non Jewish school etc. We can’t blame that for everyone that’s no longer frum.

it's called the "post hoc fallacy"
Reply to  Reality check
September 5, 2022 12:52 pm

Correlation isn’t causation.
There are also many people from the non-stringent communities who aren’t frum today.
I wonder if someone would make actual research, what the results would show.

School rules
Reply to  Reality check
September 5, 2022 6:22 pm

It’s one thing to expect kids to follow school rules but to punish kids because of their parents?

let's heed the call
September 5, 2022 3:39 am

when the Rabbonim שליט״א wisely write that they are “turning the matter over to the community”, their message to us is unmistakable — it seems they want us to take our streets back by creating a volunteer tznius patrol to enforce והיה מחניך קדוש in our beloved shchuna. This task is probably even more important than the life-saving work done by Hatzolah and Shmira.

Taliban
Reply to  let's heed the call
September 5, 2022 8:57 am

I guess you want to turn crown heights into Kabul

I guess
Reply to  Taliban
September 5, 2022 10:07 am

you aren’t aware of the difference between our G-d-given Torah and (lehavdil) their religion, invented by (as the Rambam calls him) a madman.

You are 100% correct
Reply to  I guess
September 5, 2022 8:43 pm

The thumbs down to your comment have to be by the non-members of the community who clearly support the taliban.

Chillax
Reply to  Taliban
September 5, 2022 8:44 pm

I guess you don’t comprehend sarcasm.

Patrol?
Reply to  let's heed the call
September 5, 2022 8:59 am

Surely this is satire. What do you propose? Stopping people in the streets to lecture them? “Excuse me, ma’am, I’m writing you a citation for your hem length (actually lack of it) and your nail polish. Your Beis Din date is printed here. Please sign here; you’re not admitting guilt but merely acknowledging receipt of this citation.”

let’s heed the call
Reply to  Patrol?
September 5, 2022 10:13 am

kudos for noticing the satire

A tznius patrol????
Reply to  let's heed the call
September 5, 2022 9:53 am

Is that a joke????? What are we????? So many of our children are lost and are searching. And now we’re going to push them away because their tznius doesnt match ours? What about all the people who dress the part but dont know how to be kind to another yid? Thats ok? And for those that didnt leave the path, so many of them its because we are so accepting Bh. We can tell a yid who never did a mitzvah in his life to put on teffilin, but to one of our own we have to force to dress… Read more »

Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 4:21 am

I could write 10 pages on on this. But a couple of points. Every time attention has been brought to bear on this issue, rules are made, or children sanctioned, the results have been disastrous. The results are obvious. We are talking about this more than ever, yet the problem is totally out of control. I unfortunately am deeply in touch with the underbelly of Crown Heights and I can tell you this is the number one divider and destroyer. Kids are ostracized, punished arbitrarily and many if not most do not not respond and most have jettisoned these and… Read more »

Reality check
Reply to  Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 8:19 am

Although the idea sounds nice that via osmosis the teachers will affect the students-in reality it doesn’t work enough. Just walk through the streets of CH and you’ve got your answer…

Thank you
Reply to  Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 9:41 am

100% right in every way

Last two lines say it all!
Reply to  Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 10:54 am

We have bigger problems. How many bochurim – and even girls – smoke weed?! Obviously, they are in turmoil. Is this being addressed in the boys’ yeshivos? What goes on at some of the “bein” parties? Boys, girls, single friends of spouses…. Tznius is important but it has to come from within. The men have to learn about it, too. A pink shirt on a shaliach?! I have a hard time believing the same shaliach would’ve been comfortable going in front of the Rebbe in a pink shirt. Meanwhile, the little kids have a button down shirt uniform. Go figure….… Read more »

Even bigger problems
Reply to  Last two lines say it all!
September 5, 2022 10:53 pm

We have bigger problems than weed, pink shirts and beins. People are not happy and they are seriously broken inside

Melodramatic response
Reply to  Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 11:21 am

This is such a melodramatic response. Tznius is one of hundreds of Halachos and Minhogim that Lubavitchers are expected to keep, and if people were flagrantly and publicly violating any other Halacha, Rabbonim would also respond, and there wouldn’t be such a backlash. The ones attacking the Rabbonim seem to fall mostly into 2 groups: 1) Men who feel like they need to “white knight” and protect girls and women from these “archaic Rabbis” who don’t understand their own community. 2) Women feminists who feel like men (even Rabbonim) shouldn’t be allowed to talk about Tznius and issues that affect… Read more »

I couldn’t disagree more.
Reply to  Melodramatic response
September 5, 2022 2:49 pm

Firstly, the article is melodramatic. Not his response. Secondly, not “IF Chabad was violating other Halachos, the Rabbanim would speak up….” As a community we’re already violating plenty of Halachos and the Rabbanim do not speak up. 1) His response has nothing to do with him being a man. A woman could have written this and it would be powerful all the same. 2) Who are you to decide who is “on the fringes?” If you feel the right to judge someone as “on the fringes,” whatever that means, for writing a pro-women comment, then based on your comment, I’ll… Read more »

Ok then
Reply to  Melodramatic response
September 5, 2022 10:58 pm

So if a parent doesn’t learn chitas and rambam every day, doesn’t say shma b’zman, doesn’t say all of tehilim every shabbos mevorchim, doesn’t go on tahalucha then sorry kids but you’ll have to find another school

Agree...
Reply to  Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 11:25 am

As someone who went through the bais yaakov system, I couldn’t agree more. I lived in fear of being kicked out of school on a regular basis (for infractions such as a fully tznius but not the right color skirt). Those were the clothing my mother bought me and the standards of my family. While this approach DID actually get me into the “habit” of tznius, it definitely did not give an appreciation. And for many of my classmates it led to devastating outcomes and girls ended up on the streets and because of their clothing choices they were led… Read more »

100%
Reply to  Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 12:06 pm

Absolutely.

2 part issue
Reply to  Avremi Gourarie
September 5, 2022 1:14 pm

I think we have on our hands a 2 part issue. We have mother’s who are walking around CH in attire that is far from being up to the Lubavitch standards of Tznius. This confuses children being that there is a big disconnect between the chinuch children are getting at home and in school. If you don’t want to be Tznius for yourself, do it for your children. I’ve met people who have left frumkiet because they felt like there were double standards with one thing being taught at home and another at school. I’ve spoken to young girls who… Read more »

Tznius
September 5, 2022 5:07 am

I think they meant to vet parents that come to pick up their kids not Tznius, not to check how they’re dressed outside the school system

Not just the girls school
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 9:05 am

I agree.
This isn’t a girls school issue. When I dropped my son off for orientation the way some moms were dressed were not even close to standards. The school sent out an email prior to please be tznius… but moms wearing short sleeve, mini skirts and a tichel falling off were not rebuked.

It was so sad.
Reply to  Not just the girls school
September 5, 2022 12:28 pm

School makes rule respect it! It’s basic.

Perhaps or maybe not
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 9:07 am

A big issue in chinuch is how the parents act. Kids will usually emulate their parents. If their parents don’t care about Halacha, then why should the kids?!!

Not true
Reply to  Perhaps or maybe not
September 5, 2022 3:51 pm

I wish this was true. I know plenty of mothers who dress tznius but whose children do not (yet) dress tznius.

Bais Rivka
September 5, 2022 6:23 am

Has always stood for the rebbes ideals by accepting all children. It’s much easier to be selective. But not the right way.
People wont change because of school requirements. The tragic drop in standards will still be seen in the streets and the environment.
Things need to be done but not this. More positive supportive experiences

Please don’t
September 5, 2022 7:09 am

PleAse do not revert back to disciplinarian measures to encourage Tznius. This has never been the way to ensure that people develop an inherent desire to be tznius that lasts beyond the school years. This letter is really really hard to read.

Give me a break!!!!
September 5, 2022 7:29 am

Here’s a quote from an excellent article on chabad.org about tznius: “Dat Yehudit, “the law of the Jewish woman,” is fascinating. It refers to the accepted standard of modest dress in the Jewish community. Standards adopted by observant Jewish women assume the status of law. What’s unique about this is that no other commandment is so dependent on human decisions. G‑d doesn’t say, “Just rely on your innate sense of kosher and you’ll be fine.” But that’s exactly what He tells us about modesty. “I created woman with an innate sense of modesty, and I know I can rely on… Read more »

Don't add to halacha
September 5, 2022 7:30 am

Maybe it’s time to rethink the rules. Where does it say socks are not tznius and only tights may be worn? Don’t you think girls may be resentful when they are forced to wear tights in the stifling heat from such a young age? And then when they decide to be “rebellious” and not wear tights all the time, they may as well not wear socks either because they are anyway not tznius. Same goes with having to wear a sweater because blouses are somehow not tznius. Don’t add tznius halachos that don’t exist and it just may become easier… Read more »

Malky
Reply to  Don't add to halacha
September 5, 2022 11:49 am

I have ideas for girls who are upset about wearing tights in stifling heat – think about the boys who have to wear a hat, jacket, long black pants, woolen Tzitzis… and don’t make a fuss of it.

Pro godly revelation
Reply to  Malky
September 5, 2022 6:18 pm

and then think about the guys who take off their hats and jackets, and put on breathable knit yarmulkes

Socks vs. Tights
Reply to  Don't add to halacha
September 5, 2022 3:53 pm

Sometimes socks are a problem of exposing the shok or the knee.

Thank you for the quotes from the Rebbe
September 5, 2022 7:40 am

NONE OF THEM SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A CHILDS ACCEPTANCE IN A SCHOOL BEING BASED ON HOW THEIR PARENTS DRESS!!!

IF YOU WANT TO LOOK TO THE REBBE FOR GUIDANCE, LOOK AT THE REBBE’S LOVE FOR EVERY JEW, CARE FOR EVERYONE. LOOK HOW THE REBBE NURTURED THE GOOD IN PEOPLE, LOOK HOW THE REBBE TAUGHT AHAVAS YISROEL, VALUED TORAH EDUCATION FOR EACH JEWISH CHILD, AND THEN APPLY THE REBBE’S APPROACH TO YOUR DILEMA.

Thank you
September 5, 2022 7:40 am

A huge thank you to the Rabbanim and schools for helping our community

Sara
September 5, 2022 7:42 am

If the schools do this wrong we will see more mental health issues, kids getting tattoos when they get to (out of t h e system, more kids going off in general.

Avremi Gourarie
Reply to  Sara
September 5, 2022 10:06 am

Not ‘will’. Happening now

Interesting wording
September 5, 2022 7:54 am

“One idea that came up at these meetings was vetting the parent body and only allowing parents which observe proper Torah standards to send kids to the school. Naturally, vetting a parent body is a delicate and serious matter and needs to be looked at seriously. However, with goodwill and a positive attitude all can be achieved.” This sounds like an implied but unsubstantiated threat to parents. The wording makes it sound like schools have accepted this though the article doesn’t actually say that this is the case. Interestingly no other specific idea mentioned at these meetings is mentioned, only… Read more »

Heartbreaking
September 5, 2022 7:56 am

The solution to untznius dress is to “vet parents”?! So basically, shame, manipulate, coerce, with the threat of exclusion. How is this true to our core values? And practically, how would this not backfire? This is very confusing and upsetting. When “tznius” becomes more about “control” and “conformity” much more stands to be lost than gained.

What about baalei tshuva
September 5, 2022 7:59 am

If you dont allow students in because the parents arent tznius, where does it leave those struggling to come to yiddishkeit?
What about those who want to be observant than their parents? Why punish them for their parents? Why not require tziusdik uniforms?

finally !!
September 5, 2022 8:05 am

also should be rules outside the school the tzinus in crown heights has been a big issue ,we must follow a line as a community! and I agree we have more biggest problems out there but we need to start from one at least! Moshiach now!

Is everyone right?
September 5, 2022 8:23 am

Yes, children have to be taught and be treated sensitively. There was a beautiful incentive in Camp Emunah ( Bas mitzvah age) to earn wrist bands ( as ‘cash’) towards a shopping spree. Yes- many times parents can be a tremendous influence on children’s attitudes and behaviors Yes- a community should strive for standards – lehavdil just as safety and legal standards should be strived for. If no authority – then it becomes a free for all. What happens to kashrus, Shabbos etc? Yes – it is a tough and immoral secular world out there- where at this point even… Read more »

I definitely agree
September 5, 2022 8:30 am

I agree Tznuis is vital. I do not agree with the new mentality of I do what feels good for me and too-bad. Everything we do affects the people around you, that has always been the way and it won’t change. I do not agree with punishing the children and removing children from schools that is going down a very slippery slope. school rules must be kept, how do you expect your children to respect their teachers and their school system if you as a parent don’t. If the school rules are that you have to respect the laws of… Read more »

Come on already
September 5, 2022 8:31 am

As if women in this country and community aren’t being attacked enough as it is. Tznius means different things to different people. There is no one correct definition or interpretation of tznius. To force one narrow minded view on all girls and all women is insane and totally not in line with halacha or Judaism, especially not with Chabad. But if male Rabbis are truly concerned for a halacha that in no way involves them and should be left to a woman to decide, then they should start their preaching with tznius of the soul, not of the body. We… Read more »

Wrong
Reply to  Come on already
September 5, 2022 10:08 am

Tznius applies to BOTH men and women. The requirement for men and women are VERY similar.

It’s only a bigger issue for women and girls because they have much more freedom and fewer other restrictions, unlike men whose whole day is dictated from Shachris and Tefillin with a Minyan etc.

Wait… what?
Reply to  Wrong
September 5, 2022 11:51 am

Who said anything about tznius not applying to men? Of course it applies to men, both in character and in dress. Also what world do you live in where women have more freedom than men? Who’s carrying their babies? Who’s cooking their food? Who’s cleaning their homes? Who goes to work and/or school while also somehow maintaining a connection to Gd, while their husbands or brothers or fathers get the privilege of going to Shul every day simply because they’re men? If you view Shacharis, tefillin, and minyan as restrictions and not privileges, then you gotta rework your Judaism. If… Read more »

Actually not ...
Reply to  Come on already
September 5, 2022 10:53 am

Your dress does reflect on what’s going on inside and yes there are rules of dress that define what is tznius or not. Tap into that sensitivity…
Good luck to all

After much thought
September 5, 2022 8:57 am

I feel its the husbands who need to be more adamant with their wives about how they want their wife to dress…. ..and really put their foot down…..
Ive seen enuf of these couples where the husband is afraid to say anything…. And it just continues to degenerate ל״ע

They're supposed to be partners
Reply to  After much thought
September 5, 2022 10:38 am

A husband who is “adamant with his wife” isn’t being a partner but a pseudo parent. That isn’t his role. If they don’t have good communication or feel comfortable talking about tsnius that’s a really bad sign about how their relationship is that goes way beyond tsnius.

Very twisted
Reply to  After much thought
September 5, 2022 11:00 am

With your attitude not only will the tznius problems increase, there will be more divorces. A husband should never force his wife to do anything. A woman will be happy to do something for her husband if he treats her with respect and dignity and is a proper role model himself.

Tznius
September 5, 2022 8:57 am

It’s About time they woke up too late As A Lubavitcher I am a shame when I walk down Kingston Avenue I don’t know if I’m living in a Jewish community We should learn from other communities how they dress and we should not think that we are the best

"Other communities"
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 10:07 am

If a woman in another community wants to dress immodestly she is kicked out! You wont see a woman on the st wearing a short skirt because that doesnt exist there!!!! Not that theyre all perfct angels. No one is an angel, we are all people with a yetzer hara! For them its all or nothing, if you dont seem perfct on the outside then you cant be there. Chas vshalom that this is what chabad comes to. It pains me and scares me to think about it. We beg a yid who dosnt know hes a yid, who ate… Read more »

Stop judging 'other communities'
Reply to  "Other communities"
September 5, 2022 8:48 pm

Nonsense. Been in both Boro Park and Flatbush, NJ etc not one woman has been ‘kicked out’ for not dressing tznius. If someone is open and brazen about wearing outrageous clothing as a form of intentional disrespect I can imagine some form of ostracization. But even that I have never yet seen. Generally when the majority of people have a certain type of behaving or dressing most other people will follow.

Oh come on
Reply to  Stop judging 'other communities'
September 6, 2022 1:07 pm

So ure telling me not one person struggles with tznius there? Theyre human!! Ofc they do!! Even if theyre not kicked out then they leave on their own. And dont tell me that people dont leave. Bc unfortunately there are tons of neshomos who left the path. Im not judging anybody, every circle does whats right for them, im saying the facts. Tznius has been turned into such a physical thing. Its all about appearence. The number of ppl who dress tznius so that they get a good bashert! How twisted! You should marry someone on your lvl and grow… Read more »

Alternative
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 12:43 pm

Then start walking down Albany instead

Wow
Reply to  Tznius
September 5, 2022 6:11 pm

Good luck trying to be a shliach in a college campus or anywhere outside of boro park with that attitude

I don't agree
Reply to  Wow
September 5, 2022 8:51 pm

That is different than what the above commenter expressed. People there don’t know, they are not deciding to live in a frum community and then going against what they know well to be the Torah way.

Do it in a positive way, strict punishments are su
September 5, 2022 9:14 am

Maybe some people in crown heights do need to work on their tznius but making rules and pushing people away will have the opposite effect. There will be one group that honestly wants to be tznius, a second group that will abide by the rules because of social pressure, the third group is the one that really can use the help but they will be turned off by the way it’s being done and will just make them more defiant and not interested, don’t they see?! The way to get people to keep Mitzvos in a better way is through… Read more »

Not sure
September 5, 2022 9:36 am

Its a very nice thing what the 2 Rabbonim are trying to do. But, they “are barking up the wrong tree” here ! The schools are not the issue. Every school obviously wants their students to dress Tzniosdig. The problem is the “home” the “parents” . This is the issue. Many homes unfortunately took on this new Mishugaas called “Chabad Light”. Its not just Tznius. One can even be a member of the board of a school and look and yet dress and act like a modern orthodox Jew (with all the “trimmimgs” (pun intended)), This would never had happened… Read more »

Just as important
September 5, 2022 9:43 am

For as long as I can remember, all everyone cares about is Tznius. I’m not here to say that Tznius is not important, but what about davening in a minian 3 times a day, that is also a fundamental and vital aspect of Judaism. Mikva, Shiur Torah every day, that is also a fundamental and vital aspect of Judaism. Dressings like a Chosid not jeans and T-shirts is also fundamental. Not talking in shul, fundamental. But, it’s easier to tell the women what to do. Men, if we just each did our part, things will change and get better by… Read more »

Very true
Reply to  Just as important
September 5, 2022 10:12 am

But religion is all about power when you make it so, and controlling women is easier than addressing your own issues or relationship with Gd. I beg the women in crown heights to rise up in a feminist outcry, not just in relation to tznius, but with regards to every aspect of Judaism and life in general. It’s painful to see the way some women in this community have accepted their treatment as second class citizens. There are women who are married to men who ignore them or treat them like incubators. There are women who feel they have no… Read more »

I don’t know what world you live in
Reply to  Very true
September 5, 2022 1:21 pm

But the women here are very independent and strong. I would hardly describe Chabad women as ‘oppressed’ or ‘controlled’ :)) Just because it is expressed that some need improvement in tznius, I hardly think that qualifies as control!

Wrong
Reply to  Very true
September 5, 2022 2:03 pm

There has been an enormous amount of research released recently showing very clearly that women who embrace those ideals are much less happy and fulfilled than those who live by traditional gender roles. There are dozens of books written on the subject such as the one released just last month by Louise Perry.

And if you think women are treated as second class citizens, you must know very little about Lubavitch in general and specifically what the Rebbe wrote on the role of women.

Spot on
Reply to  Just as important
September 5, 2022 10:22 am

Thank you for the only sensible comment. If the men in the community would be following the halochos correctly and having the correct attitude towards yidishkeit and chassidishkeit, then many other issues would fall into place including tznius. I believe that if the men who are meant to be the mashpios behave in an appropriate manner, then the women who are the mekabel will be more accepting.

It's very simple
Reply to  Just as important
September 5, 2022 8:54 pm

When you don’t daven with a minyan you are not directly affecting the klal. When you walk down the street dressed untzniusdik you are.

Speechless
September 5, 2022 10:00 am

I went through the Bais Yaakov school system, which gets so much hatred here in Crown Heights, but my Rabbis never talked down to the women or the girls and they never treated us like this. Who knew Chabad could be so judgmental and unkind towards fellow Jews for something as irrelevant as a neckline.

I respectfully disagree
Reply to  Speechless
September 5, 2022 1:28 pm

Firstly, Bais Yaakov doesn’t get hatred. That is a strong, exaggerated word which can mean your emotions are getting in the way of your seichel. Secondly, I also went to Bais Yaakov for a few years and while I am grateful forvthat experience and definitely learned a lot there, there was definitely more severity in the style of educating and in the atmosphere, at least of the school I attended.

Tznius should be fun, fashionable, and affordable
September 5, 2022 10:06 am

I recently went into a local store to buy a basic skirt. After trying on the 2 options that were tznius and in my size I discovered there was a slit in the back of a $ 65 skirt. I walked out with nothing because I can barely afford to spend so much on a skirt let alone one that will need further modification that I won’t get around toward doing. Many of the women I know who dress tznius al pi Halacha have to go to boro park to find something that is stylish and suits them. Many women… Read more »

Go to
Reply to  Tznius should be fun, fashionable, and affordable
September 5, 2022 10:53 pm

Burlington coat factory for skirts

This is embarrassing
September 5, 2022 10:17 am

Besides all the obvious reasons as to why this entire letter is a complete chillul Hashem, shall we address the men of this community as well? The way they act and speak and behave is a disgrace to Judaism.

How about we have the men actually try working on themselves before reverting to what religion has been doing since it was created; blaming women.

Moshiach hasn’t come yet, and maybe the men could pick up some of the slack and work on bringing it closer as well.

What religion has been doing since it was created
Reply to  This is embarrassing
September 5, 2022 1:34 pm

In your words, what religion has been doing since the beginning of time is ‘blaming women’. If that is what you really believe, sounds like you have a much bigger problem than issues with tznius.

True
Reply to  What religion has been doing since it was created
September 5, 2022 5:36 pm

and the topic of tznius is very much related.

That is why it is imperative for women to learn how to separate Gd from Rabbis and community. Gd doesn’t degrade women, but men’s interpretation of Gd does.

Bubbeh Maises
September 5, 2022 10:18 am

Every girl and women in CH knows exactly what is tznius and what is deliberatly not tznius… no one needs to teach them. Yes we should focus on positivty and at the same time we dont need to keep mum and tolerate brazen deliberate lowering of standards “modern lubavitchers” know whats right and know where they came from and the right thing to do. So do it. Would these women go get a dollar like this?? Do they go to the Ohel like this?? They know whats right and whats wrong. And no its not “up to interpetation” and they… Read more »

Yup
Reply to  Bubbeh Maises
September 5, 2022 11:30 am

Get those women in their place! How hard can it be to just make them look and act the right way? Men, just use your power!
(Sarcasm)

JMHO
September 5, 2022 10:20 am

This reminds me of the mother who scolds her child: “I told you a million times not to exaggerate!!!!” Tznius (modesty) must be dealt with in a Tznius’dike way. If people in positions of authority feel that it’s OK to flaunt the power of their authority, why are they surprised when people follow their example and want to flaunt the power of their body? In my experience the problem and solution in this case as well as in many other challenges of this nature is: I don’t care how much you know until I know how much you care (about… Read more »

Lo rotzeh? Lo tzarich!
September 5, 2022 10:29 am

Private schools in the neighborhood can allow themselves the luxury of picking and choosing what works for them, their budget, their personal goals and their reputation. They can tell any parent or student: Lo rotzeh? Lo tzarich! This is MY place and I make the rules.

The Rebbe’s school treats every girl like a “bas yechidah” family member. You don’t get to vet which of the children Hashem blessed you with are welcome to remain in your family, based on their specific challenges.

Families have different rules than private enterprises.

You cannot measure sound with a thermometer…

MISSING THE POINT
September 5, 2022 10:54 am

To all concerned members of the community: Let us step back and ask why. Why are we not being successful in inculcating within ourselves and our children, this critical foundation of Yiddishkeit? Perhaps the answer lies in the approach. As is becoming more and more clear, this generation does not do well with a Gevurah approach. We respond much better to Chesed and Ahava. This is an across-the-board consensus in all Frum communities. Obviously, there have to be black and white requirements in our schools and communities, however, the KEY here is to find ways to INSPIRE our children so… Read more »

Vetting parents is sensitive?
September 5, 2022 10:57 am

Vetting parents is just as outlandish and bizarre as trying to control the way other peoples kids look. The difference is parents are adults who can talk back and won’t be forced to tolerate threats.

Speaking of talking back, does anyone remember when there was a third ruv on the bais din? WE WANT ANSWERS

Trying to control the way other peoples kids look?
Reply to  Vetting parents is sensitive?
September 5, 2022 1:40 pm

Is that what you call a school’s dress code? ‘Trying to control the way other people’s kids look’? What about expecting them to learn math rules- would that be ‘trying to control the way other people’s kids think’?

Well…
Reply to  Trying to control the way other peoples kids look?
September 5, 2022 2:57 pm

The bais din clearly isn’t talking about a school dress code because there’s no school in CH that doesn’t have a tznius dress code that everyone follows or gets sent home.

This is clearly action against how people look outside of school. Parents and students alike. What someone else’s kid looks like on a Sunday or after school is none of your business.

What is a true education
Reply to  Well…
September 5, 2022 9:05 pm

A school does more than teach, it provides guidance. There’s an assumption that- when a parent chooses to send their child to a school that has a certain outlook and is strongly based on halacha and the Rebbe’s views- it means that they wish their own child to be in line with what the school emphasizes. It’s sad when there is a conflict between the values taught by the school and what the child is hearing at home. That must create a level of confusion or lack of direction in a child.

Actually!
Reply to  What is a true education
September 7, 2022 9:06 am

I grew up attending a school that was more religious than how we practiced at home, and as an adult I feel so grateful for that.

Seeing that there are multiple ways to practice Judaism and that no one Rabbi holds the authority on how to relate with Gd allowed me to explore my own connection and define my own terms of Judaism.

If you’re raised with a narrow minded view of Judaism as a kid, then you become a narrow minded adult.

Let kids explore and they’ll connect with Gd by choice, not by default.

Rabanim talking up
September 5, 2022 11:00 am

I wish the Rabbanim had the same passion of preserving the real estate in our community as they do with the tznius, they never talk about the horrible real estate brokers driving up the pricing of homes, every time they find out about an accepted offer they go over to the owner and tell them they can get them a better sale, stealing it from someone who finally found something that they can half afford. I’m generally of the opinion not to throw in every issue when something is brought up, but I feel like the housing crisis is plaguing… Read more »

the Beis Din support staff
September 5, 2022 11:07 am

I am deeply saddened by the apparent firing of the entire English-writing support staff of our Beis Din

Men
September 5, 2022 11:35 am

How is it tznius for men to be so involved in how women dress? This is confusing.

First time were hearing from beis din Ina while
September 5, 2022 11:44 am

Beis din of crown heights rarely speaks up…. and the one time they do, it’s to address tznius 1. Tznius can’t be legislated. It’s not sustainable. It needs to be taught and modeled In a meaningful way. 2. There are so many more important issues than tznius… thats why its frustrating to me that when the CH rabbanim finally take initiative about something, as usual its to police women’s freedoms, choices, and behaviors. I truly believe that if we work on the quality of our education overall, on mental health and wellness, on providing an environment of support for our… Read more »

Unfortunately
Reply to  First time were hearing from beis din Ina while
September 5, 2022 1:21 pm

Seems as though tznius must be the only area upon which they can agree. So sad that focusing on tznius is their target to achieve achdus, when so, so many other areas need work.
I’m in tears with this realization.
Kisiva v’chasima tova!

We need to prioritize
September 5, 2022 11:47 am

Now that we have Ahavas Yisroel under control. we should focus on Tznius. But not in the way we speak, that’s fine. Just in the way we dress.

This comment
Reply to  We need to prioritize
September 5, 2022 12:02 pm

This is fire. Well done.

Agreed
Reply to  We need to prioritize
September 5, 2022 1:43 pm

The talking is way out of control. Maybe it goes together because a lack of self discipline is pervasive – covers the way you talk, dress, eat etc.

Tznius for men
September 5, 2022 12:17 pm

What do you say to all the men of the community wearing pink’ orange or green Yarmelkes. Or pink and yellow shirts
you don’t find this anywhere but crown heights

What?
Reply to  Tznius for men
September 6, 2022 12:14 am

Wearing a colored shirt is not a problem for men or women. You might be a fanatic and if that’s so no one is stopping you from moving into the lev tahor community or Williamsburg.

Confused
Reply to  Tznius for men
September 6, 2022 1:10 pm

Wheres the halacha in wearing white shirts and yechi yarmulkes only?

It may be right, but it is VERY scary
September 5, 2022 12:20 pm

The rabbanim mean well and we can all do more to protect tznies in the community

However!

This a dangerous move – to excommunicate people is very scary and never works. The rabbanim would be more transparent about who is pushing them to do this and what are their true intentions…

BH the Rabonim Have spoken
September 5, 2022 12:22 pm

And there is one school which is following its guidance

Kindly Watch

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JkF-pmZMpek

Contradiction with a question?
Reply to  BH the Rabonim Have spoken
September 6, 2022 12:15 am

“Broadcast Live via 770Live.com – 19 Kislev 5777  Speaking from Chabad Lubavitcher World Headquarters in 770: Rabbi Braun (of the Badatz of Crown Heights), states that (The Hanhala and or the “Board” of) Our Mosdos, which expel children from school, are responsible for effectively, “Intentionally Throwing Them In To The Garbage”, Responsible for them going OTD, (Shemiras Shabbos etc.), and Responsible for such children being Broken For Life!” from the above youtube video description. Do you wish to insinuate that Rav Braun contradicts himself when he indicates that non-tzniusdik parents’ children may not be accepted to school? Or that non-tznius women should be treated… Read more »

I do not have a solution
September 5, 2022 12:22 pm

If a system is not working then logic dictates we make changes. The way the schools teach tznuis does not work. I am at a loss. My 10 year old daughter and her friends talk about when they will finally be able to do what they want and wear what they want.
Most girls see it as a huge burden.

Social media might be the issue
Reply to  I do not have a solution
September 5, 2022 1:47 pm

Perhaps your daughters friends are exposed to social media that is leading them in a certain direction. I think social media exposure and then peer pressure go hand in hand with this issue.

Teach the beauty of it
September 5, 2022 12:49 pm

Don’t make it about rules, please stop that song our 3 year old daughter comes home with…. Stop the body shaming. Don’t add rules and make it harder.
Woman do not want to hear men telling us what we can wear and what we can’t.
Tznuis is a beautiful mitsvah. It has to be taught in a gentle way with positivity and love.

tznius
September 5, 2022 12:52 pm

how can it be that chabad who promote chasidus to others should lack so much in tznius you think other frum yidden who see this dont get turned off from this? why is it that those communities that are not learning chasidus are so much more makpid on halacha and tzniyus is this behavior going to bring moshiach or influnce others to learn chasidus im afraid not uch un vei how shameful

Dress codes are normal and beneficial
September 5, 2022 1:05 pm

It is perfectly normal for schools, employers and other organisations to have dress codes. For children, learning to adhere to rules such as a dress code helps to give them the sense of self discipline and respect that makes them a mentch, more employable and more successful socially. As for the parents who know perfectly well to show up at a formal dinner in appropriate dress, how is the way you show up to your son’s school any different- if you want to convey your sense of respect for the place that educates your child. Certainly the best way to… Read more »

Men should not be talking about feminine matters!
September 5, 2022 1:19 pm

Maybe a panel of well rounded tznius woman (the way they speak, behave, live and dress) can have a candid and open conversation with the community by having an event. Let them show the beauty of being tznius vs scaring tactics.

Our generation has changed, we gotta live with the times. Placing fear and punishments dont cut it anymore.

So many layers of sadness
September 5, 2022 1:25 pm

We’ve reached a point where we’re more concerned about what women wear than with their actual health. The rampant eating disorders all over this community are gut wrenching, but as long as we drape women in enough fabric then why concern ourselves with what’s underneath.

Malky
Reply to  So many layers of sadness
September 5, 2022 2:46 pm

Have you ever walked down the streets in Crown Heights and seen how much fabric men are draped in?
I don’t complain…

The difference is
Reply to  Malky
September 5, 2022 3:55 pm

They don’t get preached the same way if they’re not dressed according to halacha either

I’m sure this will work!
September 5, 2022 1:30 pm

Imagine depriving a girl of an education—a Chabad education, nonetheless!—for the sin of her being born to a mother whose tznius don’t meet a couple of rabbis’ standards.

Where is the tznius letter to men
September 5, 2022 1:31 pm

Don’t men also have a dress code ,ex,hat , hairstyles,pants type and color….or do only woman get admonished?

Ma Rabbi
September 5, 2022 1:40 pm

The idea that a little girl should be punished or excluded from school because her mother does not dress modestly is completely unfair.

The RABBONIM are RIGHT!
September 5, 2022 1:52 pm

If the rabonim don’t stand up for tznius, who will? So many chabad women in our community look more Modern Orthodox than chabad.

There should be clear guidelines in our community, if you don’t like it, you can move to Teaneck or the Five Towns.

I don’t even let my son walk on Kingston on warm days, it looks more like Las Vegas strip than a frum neighborhood!

Social media
September 5, 2022 1:54 pm

Social media is a huge factor and should be considered as one of the single most crucial matters to be addressed as it not only influences tznius hugely but also perceptions of life and relationships, in impressionable young minds. I am surprised that this is so accepted that it is not even brought up as an issue. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees!

Questions to CH residents
September 5, 2022 2:06 pm

I find it not surprizing that tznius is a problem faced in CH. Chabad is so opened and focuses so much on outreach (and bring back a lot of people to yiddishkeit) that it’s normal that outside influence (cultural, in tznius, and much more) affect a lot. I think that before addressing the issue of tznius halachically, there should be a great focus on how do we teach our kids to behave one another, how to live within our means, how to be content with what we have, not to be showy, etc. Tznius will naturally follow. Another unrelated note:… Read more »

One who is old enough
September 5, 2022 2:08 pm

I say with full authority that when the badatz came into being in 1986 I and many friends who were young men approached the schools to ask the rabbis to issue guidelines on tznius, but they came back empty handed, so I dared go and ask rabbi Marlow and rabbi heller why can’t they respond to the schools, and their response was that the rebbe told them to stay away and leave it up to the schools.

Boundaries
September 5, 2022 2:12 pm

Is anyone complete in their self improvement that they can move to improving someone else? Why and how can or does one person opine on someone else’s personal or religious behaviour? Are they making a hole in your boat? Perhaps consider honestly what motivates you to critique (rather than compliment) another’s behaviour. Perhaps consider the realistic (not just hopeful) outcome of sharing your negative (“constructive” “educational” caring sharing divinely intentional) judgment of another’s behaviour. Oh, how I wish everyone would hold all their constructive criticism tightly bound and hidden, and publicly burn it annually in a bonfire erev pesach, and… Read more »

That is literally their job
Reply to  Boundaries
September 6, 2022 12:58 am

Someone has to try to raise the standards for everyone else, and remind us what is right. If they don’t, who will? Not saying I agree with the idea of vetting parents.

This comment right here
Reply to  Boundaries
September 6, 2022 9:13 am

All it takes is a little humility and the allowing of space for people to lead their lives the way they choose.

We’re all so quick to share our opinions/advice/criticism, but maybe no one person has all the answers.

Could be we’re just meant to support each other and allow one another the room to grow at our own individual pace.

What the Rebbe said
Reply to  Boundaries
September 7, 2022 12:20 am

No offense to the author of this comment, but the Rebbe made it clear on numerous occasions through the years both in sichos (primarily in 5746, around the time of the inception of the Beis Din) and in written responses (see Likkut Maanos Kodesh 5746) that the task and role of the Rabbonim is not solely to answer halachic questions, but rather to be the leaders of the community (which obviously entails answering halachic questions as any other Rov would do). In addition, about the point you made at the very end about Mashpiim only being Mashpia on those who… Read more »

A COMMUNITY-WIDE SOLUTION
September 5, 2022 3:06 pm

What is required is a unified positive approach involving the WHOLE family. Fathers, mothers, girls and boys should be properly educated what Halacha says, and the amazing, encouraging words of the Rebbe. The word “Tznius” itself evokes negative connotations by many girls and women. Therefore this learning and awareness should be under the banner והי׳ מחניך קדוש “Your camp (community) should be holy”. Emphasizing the holiness and beauty of following Halacha and the Rebbe’s teachings. A community-wide Shabbos והי׳ מחניך קדוש should be organized in the same week in ALL the Crown Heights shuls. A small booklet containing concise Halochos… Read more »

Tashuv heiderachecha. Also N'shei Chabad , junio
September 5, 2022 3:21 pm

Maybe to strengthen tznius, the other 4 letters of teshuvah, as taught by Reb Zusha, need to be focused on first. Tamim tihyu, Shiviti Hashem, V’ahavta l’reacha komacha, b’choll derachecha. Are girls taught enough about the above concepts?
How many women and girls really have mashpios? How many keep in touch with their mashpiah?

Tashuv hei
September 5, 2022 3:35 pm

Tznius is inwardness. There are halachas that direct us on how to dress so one can better appreciate and focus on the inwardness. People who have challenges with the halachas may have conflict with their inwardness, with their soul’s expression of connection to Hashem.
For such people, one must first address the other aspects of the word teshuva as elucidated by Reb Zusia of Anipoli – being tznius being the last of the concepts. Are students taught well the meanings of tamim tiheyu, b’chol derachecha, v’ahavta l’reach kamocha, and b’chol derachecha? Are they given living examples of the above concepts?

LA Morah
September 5, 2022 3:35 pm

Standards. We live in a time when this is not a very popular concept. Pushing people away is a valid fear but so is negatively effecting others and bashmearing Lubavitch.

Vheishiv leiv avos al banim
September 5, 2022 3:43 pm

Trying to “mkarev” or encourage tznius in parents by school rules makes zero sense and I imagine is against what the rebbe stood for. You should mkarev parents by bringing their children closer to yiddishkeit in a warm loving way, and this will bring the whole family closer. Stop legislating and excluding and threatening – ymin mkareves usmol docheh.

אם רוח המושל
September 5, 2022 4:15 pm

אך הענין הוא דהנה ענין הוֹכֵחַ תּוֹכִיחַ אֶת עֲמִיתֶךָ, הכונה היא שידבר על לב השומעים איך מלאם לבם לעבור על אחת ממצות מלך ממ״מ הקב״ה אשר צוה שלא לעשות, או בהעדר אחת ממצות עשה אשר צוה ממה״מ הקב״ה לעשותה, ובעת התוכחה יכול המוכיח וצריך לבאר למי שמוכיח את העונש שבזה, דלפעמים הנה העדר הידיעה בחומר הענין הדבר עבירה, גורם הרבה לזה שאין נזהרים, ולכן צריך לבאר ולהסביר לו גודל החומר שבזה, ולעוררם על הדבר בזה שמראה להם (ער ווייזט זיי)  שמפני גסותם וחומריותם נעשה בהם הקרירות מבלי להתפעל מדבר חמור כזה, עס ארט זיי ניט ח״ו, דזה בא מצד הקרירות,… Read more »

Some problems with Rabanim's letter
September 5, 2022 4:18 pm

#1 When people struggle to keep halacha, it’s usually for one of two reasons: a- they don’t understand the significance of that issue, OR b- they’re disillusioned, in pain, or angry. The response has to relate to the cause. Proper education given over with love and warmth is usually the key. #2 When people are made to feel ‘wrong’ (even if they are in fact wrong), if there are enough who are feeling rejected, they usually go off and make their own shuls and communities. I dont see what this achieves. When the Baal Shem Tov loved simple people, many… Read more »

Hashem is in the field
September 5, 2022 4:30 pm

B”H When a child pictures Hashem as a king in the field, it’s a King with a robe on, not shorts and a t-shirt. And we ladies are a bas melech, a daughter of the King. Surely we can present ourselves as fitting as a daughter of royalty. The Torah and it’s rules are from the words of our King, from Hashem, not from rabbis who make up these words. It’s our privilege to show we are special daughters of our King, that we have a right to dress as a daughter of royalty. We truly want to please Hashem.… Read more »

To 'A Tznius patrol'
September 5, 2022 4:44 pm

You spoke beautifully.

Original Crown Heights BR girl
September 5, 2022 4:57 pm

I grew up in Crown Heights and went to Bais Rivkah. I now live out of town. There are amazing things about both worlds. Here is my two cents. First of all, the mothers you speak of, probably went through the local school system and they heard about being Tzius their whole life so not going to change anything there. Lots of the problems regarding dress in both genders is the culture. Secondly, the stores carry clothes that are expensive, nebby and some not even Tzinus. Where I live there are tons of stores that carry trendy,classy and beautiful things… Read more »

bewildered
September 5, 2022 5:29 pm

How is it that the community that has the greatest Rebbe & Manhig since Moshe Rabbenu, has the lowest standards when it comes to smartphones and tzniyus than any other frum neighborhood, williamsburg, boroughpark, monsey or lakewood?

Don't be so bewildered
Reply to  bewildered
September 5, 2022 7:03 pm

The Rebbe had the utmost respect for Rabonim.

Crown Heights has the least respect for Rabonim.

Everything else flows from this clear dichotomy.

Before preaching tznius...
September 5, 2022 6:23 pm

Make the uniforms a bit more comfortable and nice looking. When I was in high school, I would go to the mirror in the bathroom and wanna puke.
And also, before preaching and forcing tznius, talk about body image and confidence. For me, tznius was just another way of covering up my body that I was ashamed of… isn’t that sad, such a beautiful mitzva that was presents in a terrible way. Didn’t matter why u were tznius, as long as you had “kabalas ol”

There’s a reason why your preaching doesn’t work …

Silly details
Reply to  Before preaching tznius...
September 6, 2022 9:42 pm

Don’t blame it on the uniforms. Excuses. A uniform is a uniform. And how about when there is no school and no uniform necessary-the high school girls are walking around with short sleeves, short Skirts, no socks, low necklines.

Vague
September 5, 2022 6:51 pm

Every aspect of this letter is so incredibly vague, it’s hard to know what exactly they tried to do, how they tried to do it, if it worked, and what the point of making this announcement is.

So this announcement is announcing what, exactly?

agreed-a word salad
Reply to  Vague
September 15, 2022 3:03 pm

here’s an idea-post a sign by the exits and send letters out to parents with specifics about how they may be permitted to enter the buildings. The same way parents respect other places with cultural norms they should be expected to observe our rules. And the non tznius dress is not referring to specifically to non or semi observant patents either. .

Halivei Tzinius is the biggest problem
September 5, 2022 6:51 pm

I read the comments with sadness. A community with such a lack of respect for their own Rabanim is a community in grat decline. I wish my fellow chasidim in Crown Heights that tznious should be your only problem. Adding in kovoid Hatorah and in Koved Rabonim will surely bring about positive resolution to all these other matters.

FAKE AND FRAUDULENT LETTER
September 5, 2022 7:00 pm

All the CH Rabbi all signed on a letter together about a year ago or so, stating not to trust any letter that doesn’t have their actual signature on it.

What are u hiding
September 5, 2022 7:02 pm

The Rebbe once said in a sicha that when you see something in someone else that bothers you so much, it is because that is the thing you yourself must work on. All who are so enraged, ask yourselves why. Could it be your own yetzer harah with tznius … Not being careful where your eyes linger or the pages your browser hits.

Men
September 5, 2022 7:29 pm

It’s always a wonderful thing when men are so focused on what women and girls are wearing. There are other issues that should take precedence.

Counterintuitive
September 5, 2022 7:32 pm

Turning away children because their parents are not dressed a certain way seems counterintuitive. Don’t you as a chabad Lubavitcher want to have the opportunity to positively influence both parents and children in the ways of chassidus, including in the ways of tznius? We need to be more accepting of our own. Even if they do not fit the mold perfectly. It is part of the Rebbe’s shlichus!

Too much acceptance?
Reply to  Counterintuitive
September 6, 2022 9:44 pm

Nowadays, culture dictates that people/children can’t be told no, or we will lose them. I think in the community because there is so much acceptance, it often becomes lax with other tznius/halacha standards. The torah says love every jew, which we should-but it doesn’t mean we can’t gently let people know that they are not following hilchos tznius.

Absolutely
September 5, 2022 8:35 pm

And we should also make a rule that no adult not dressed tzniusly be allowed into our stores (and shuls). If the adults do it the children will follow.

Confused
September 5, 2022 8:48 pm

I live in Crown Heights. Never noticed a tznius issue.

Seriously
Reply to  Confused
September 6, 2022 9:45 pm

Either you’re hiding in a hole or you got so used to the new standards you don’t even notice its a problem.

They need to care about the children
September 5, 2022 8:49 pm

You need to ask yourself. “What would the rebbe say”
The rebbe never wants any kid to get kicked out of school because the mother. Doesn’t dress to the standards that someone made up.
Remember that you are in a Lubavitch community. That accepts everyone.

Terribly saddened
September 5, 2022 11:40 pm

Whilst reading all these comments and suggestions. As a community we need to come together to address issues. Schools or businesses have a right to enforce dress codes and rules are rules otherwise don’t send to that institution. Children should never be penalized for parents disrespect. Modesty laws are for both men and women both in dress and language snd behaviors . None of us are perfect but we can, each one of us make a small change within ourselves adding to the larger picture of improvement and showing our precious children that we are trying… let’s be good role… Read more »

Satmar approach
September 6, 2022 12:03 am

I guess Satmar made it’s way into crown heights…

Superficial frum
September 6, 2022 2:20 am

I see a lot of very tznius women and black hat men behaving like garbage, being rude to others, super judgmental, and entitled. Isn’t it more important to work on that than the superficial matters?

Start with getting men to stop smoking on my face, walking without looking where they go, no education.

Also, men should not have business looking at women. That’s at least creepy. How do they know how women are dressing? Are they staring at women? That’s disgusting. Don’t look at women and that problem is solved.

I am a parent. I don’t want to dress tznius.
September 6, 2022 3:11 am

You came to my school as a child. You gave us tznius talks time and time again. I don’t dress tznius and this stupid letter veers me father away. I am a proud Lubavitcher and I will place my child in a lubavitch setting. And if you convince a school to turn my innocent daughter away bec of the way her mother dresses, you’ll have generations of children with non lubavitch education thanks to your stupidity. Why don’t you teach the schools to teach the beauty of tznius. Why is dressing tznius always made out to be a rule with… Read more »

Seriously
Reply to  I am a parent. I don’t want to dress tznius.
September 6, 2022 9:47 pm

If you don’t want to follow the setting rules, don’t send your child there. It sets sets bad example for the child when they see rules being flouted. Simple proper parenting even in the non jewish world.. Simple as that.

Vetting?!
September 6, 2022 7:19 am

It is completely ridiculous to vet parents. Make rules about your school and whoever would like to send their child there will. A more community wide school makes rules that are basic. A school with a more selective student body can make more rules. And a very high standard school has their rules. It’s normal for institutions to have rules and its not about cv catching anyone out or trying to cv force anything it just maintains an atmosphere the school wishes to uphold. Eg. A school like beis Rivka can have rules for acceptance: Mother must cover her hair… Read more »

Well thought out
Reply to  Vetting?!
September 6, 2022 9:49 pm

Finally someone with some common sense! If you want to identify as part of an institution you need to follow their standards!

to bewildered
September 6, 2022 8:10 am

but take some comfort, we have more and better restaurants than any other frum neighborhood.

Need better role models
September 6, 2022 9:40 am

As a BT I went to a Chabad day school and our teachers were a great influence. There were plenty of girls who would defy their parents by purchasing separate cooking utensils in an effort to keep kosher, not watch tv, dress tzniusly and ultimate keep Shabbos regardless what happened in the home. Those teachers/shluchos were the real deal and showed chassidus in an authentic way, even when boundaries were purposely pushed we were always met with love. But as an adult now living in a big frum area, I see zero role models who even come close to those… Read more »

We don’t need to cultivate tznius…
September 6, 2022 10:06 am

We need to cultivate Awe . Think about it – when the Rebbe was here bgashmius there was a sense of awe, you felt love and awe. Both. As a Lubavitch woman who struggles with tznius and how it feels so confining, the only thing that keeps me rising above is a sense of awe – I am in awe of the Rebbe and the powerful teachings of chassidus and I don’t want to cut myself off from that by dressing in a way that defines me as someone who doesn’t care about all that. I am in awe of… Read more »

Most teachers in our schools set a good example ,
September 6, 2022 11:23 am

…not all do.
Specific additional guidelines must be established AND enforced for the teachers — especially for those teachers who “push the envelope” on dressing tzniyusdig! No looking the other way anymore!!!!

Chinuch starts at home
September 6, 2022 4:31 pm

First of all, a dress code is not necessarily chinuch. It should exist and it should be consistently enforced (if a girl comes to school wearing something that violates the dress code she should be dealt with respectfully and told “that skirt is too short according to the dress code” not “YOU are not tznius”. It should not be personal) but a dress code does not inspire anyone. It doesn’t educate about the halachos and the reason for them. And while schools should certainly teach tznius positively and enthusiastically, they can’t do this alone. If there is a feeling that… Read more »

Weekday Borsalino
September 7, 2022 11:54 am

Rabbonim are not well versed in the fashion needs of women and therefore can’t relate really with the struggle of finding modest fashionable clothing. If women had as much selection of tznius clothing as men lehavdil, they would be far more tznius. Men have Shabbos hats and weekday borsalinos so they can feel menchlich all the time. There are 3 hats stores on Kingston alone, why can’t there be the same for women? I heard there has been some progress made on the social media where yiddishe women are trying to create fashionable modest alternatives so that young people might… Read more »

Contradiction
September 8, 2022 7:59 am

I know many women who dress tzniusly, but are not very nice people.

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