By Rabbi Avrohom Brashevitzky – Chabad of Doral, Florida
A Chossid once came for a Yechidus with the Rebbe Maharash. Too embarrassed to discuss what he has done, he asked about “a friend” who wanted to do teshuva about a specific thing. The Rebbe Maharash responded: “Why did your friend need to send you, he could have come himself and said that his friend sent him…”
This story (which the Rebbe related) came to mind when I read the recent op-ed from an “anonymous bochur” which was titled “A Conversation I Overheard on Kingston.”
Besides the issue of a bochur walking in such close proximity to girls, it was the tone of the article that bothered me. It does not sound to me as coming from a Yeshiva bochur. I couldn’t help but think that perhaps this “anonymous bochur” is really a disgruntled Yungerman.
The detail and specific advice sound more like they are coming from a Yungerman who indeed “got it over the head” or had to put up with his wife nagging him regarding this matter (hanging out at shuls for Shabbos farbrengens and not returning to his family for Seudas Shabbos).
If indeed I’m wrong, and it is a bochur who wrote this, I ask you: Is it a farbrengen you really need, or perhaps do you need to review some of the Sichos and Igros from The Rebbe regarding what bochurim should be busy with, where they should stick their noses?
As for the actual arguments made in the article:
Shortly after I got married, I would be in 770, the Rebbe’s shul, every Shabbos. But I wasn’t davening. I was busy talking with friends (and it was always about “important things,” including of Chassidishe nature). As the hours passed, we would run through davening so we could meet our wives who were waiting for us outside 770.
One Friday night, I was engrossed in a “highly important” conversation, the type which was meant to change the trajectory of Chabad and the entire course of history. Then suddenly, I heard the minyan recite “Barchu.” Of course, this was my cue that I needed to begin Kabalas Shabbos to catch up. But the crowd began to disperse. I then realized that the Baruch I heard was the second one, right before Aleinu and the end of davening.
I was so busy, that I didn’t even hear the first Barchu. That’s when I decided to find a place to daven and no longer desecrate the Rebbe’s Shul. Thankfully, that same week, a friend was starting up a new minyan and I was more than happy to join (Just to note, after actually davening like a mensch on Shabbos, I would go to 770 for socializing).
So I get it. There’s a true desire to farbreng on Shabbos afternoon like Chassidim of past generations. The Rebbe (Toras Menachem Vol 16, page 66) quotes the Arizal, “This generation of the Footsteps of Moshiach is a gilgul of the generation of the Midbar.” He said that the women now are elevated like the women then.
In general, I believe, if a man genuinely and sincerely “halt bie dem” – his wife will certainly feel it and be happy to allow him to spend time Davening b’avoda and at farbrengens. If it were true and real, she’d at least tolerate it. A wife typically has a “third sense” and knows what her husband really wants.
The Gemara says, “A proper woman is the one who does the will of her husband.” On the surface, it seems to be saying that she follows what her husband wants her to do. The Rebbe explained it to mean that “she does what she knows (detects) is the true will of her husband.” That is, what his neshama really wants. If the husband was really so Chassidish and couldn’t live without that farbrengen, I’m pretty sure that (at least in most cases) she would live with it.
One last point to this “anonymous Bochur”: In life, we make choices. Every choice has a price tag. You can’t be looking for a “Chassidishe but a slightly modern girl.” If the Chassidishkite you’re looking for in a girl is just cosmetic, then this is what you get. And she’s one hundred percent right in demanding that you be home like a mensch. After all, you were looking for a balabatishe girl and that’s who she is. There’s no bait n’ switch here. You wanted a modern girl, “not too frum.” She’s pretty frum, but not crazy Chassidish.
The “best of both worlds” is an advertising slogan. Not a reality.
Beautifully written, lots to ponder
I read this article three times, and I’m unable to figure out the takeaway. Is the author arguing that unless a man is sincerely spending time in shul, he shouldn’t spend extra time in shul? Or, is the author arguing that a wife knows what her husband really wants, so when she tells him to come home immediately after davening, she says so because that’s what her husband actually wants? Also, there are so many irrelevant side points dropped in this article that I almost feel as though it’s satire. For example, the last two paragraphs, which discuss the “anonymous… Read more »
Make sense
Take it away guys
It seams like the Original article was written by The Yetzer Hara trying to get everyone excited…and cause destruction
A Big Yasher Koach
It was written by a child of the Aibishter wheather guided or misguided trying to bring Hashem’s presence into the world like He intended.
Good for you for putting him back in his place
Rabbi I totally agree with u thank you for sticking up for us women, some of the guys these days r just crazy only looking to have fun when they have responsibility’s….
*Responsibilities
Let the comment games begin!
Why are you trying to cause drama? I’m sure there is a lot of better stuff to do.
If you don’t enjoy it, no one is stopping you from doing the better things that you mentioned as opposed to reading the articles and comments. 😘
Hey Chaim
I agree with much of what Rabbi Brashevitzky writes. Meanwhile, I also had a sneaking suspicion that the original piece was written not by a bochur, but by a Chassidishe mechaneches who wants to straighten out the young wives and show them the tremendous value in letting their husbands daven and farbreng properly, etc. What a great line: “Every choice has a price tag. You can’t be looking for a ‘Chassidishe but a slightly modern girl.’” I see it on singles’ shidduch resumes all the time (in the reverse, from the girls as well). Singles and young marrieds, think long… Read more »
There is no 2 ways chassidish but slightly modern? Yes there is because a person has their values The chassidish what you are refering to is called קנאות. Chassidish is,what i say chassidish is. Chassidish does not mean we can not have fun going to a trip to amusment park, going on vacation,partying. A lot of the people that say they want chassidish but slightly modern means they are chassidish they do chitas rambam go to mikvah daven with a minyan 3 times….but they also want to have familly time and fun. Not saying paintball shooting is not chassidish,because it… Read more »
It’s not “not chasidish” – speak to rov its not simple ‘halachaklly’ to hurt someone else sometimes even make them bleed.
just find appropriate things to do
you decide what outings is appropriate!
just because you say the outing is not appropriate,does not mean it is actually not appropriate.
This actually seems a little accusatory without concrete basis, and you seem to have overlooked the opportunity to be sensitive. You also ignored the main points that were a discussion in response and instead focused on items of lesser consequential value.
He’s just disgruntled that his farbrengan buddies have to go home before 1:00 to meet their wives
So true! We NEED moshiach!!
We really should have system where men and women dont walk next to each other on the street
I know this sounds crazy but could you imagine how pure our streets would be
We live in a crazy galus and maybe that would bring moshiach
In New Square men and women are required to walk on separate sides of the street. Suffice to say, New Square isn’t “pure” as a result. Be careful what you wish for.
Do you realize what you are suggesting here? You are suggesting that we follow the ways of other extremist sects in the frum world. Need I remind you The things other sects have done to chabad or want to be chabad chassidim?
I am pretty confident that if in our community we start to separate men and women when walking down the streets will literally be a hindrance towards the coming of moshiach?
Did you go to a chabad school or get a chabad Chinuch as a child and teenager?
But it should only be done like after slichos, or yomtov because there’s alot of traffic shabbos is fine.
it’s also very annoying to have Kiryas yamsuf and your walking and the opposite gender each go to the other side of the sidewalk forcing you to go between them because there’s no room to go around them
I’m being extreme (i know, i know..) but This sounds like a lev tahor sitch..
that the Rebbe INSISTED that on the cover of the Moshiach Times magazine for kids there should ALWAYS be a boy and a girl. When Rabbi Dovid Raskin OBM opposed it for Tznius reasons, the Rebbe did not approve the cover until a picture of a girl was added. That happened several time.
This world exists of two genders. Both walk the face of the earth. While tznius is a fundamental part of yiddishkeit, obsessive dealing with the topic of tznius could lead to just the opposite.
That the Rebbe made sure that the boy and the girl shouldn’t be close together on the cover. So your point is misquoted.
Oh whoops I thought we were both mentioning stupid and impossible things
I think bochurim shouldn’t be allowed to walk on Kingston period. If they need something they should send their married friend or sister.
Every husband has got to work something in moderation so he can farbreng and say lechaim, go to ufruf Etc. While also right afterwards go home and make kidush as a responsible head of the family.
I think everyone understands that as pretty clear.
Yes, it is true that I am already married, but the socializing by 770’s kitchen is far better than at home
And I’m still a bochur! Stop trying to troll others and take away from my points!
You cant either be the “bochur”
In fact it was a girl and its me!!!!! Hahahaha
You need to work on a happy marriage.
Trying to substitute it with the ‘socializing by 770’s kitchen’ is a fake temporary solution.
770 is supposed to enhance your marriage and life in general. Not the opposite ch”v….
You’ve got to deal with your issues sooner than later.
My advice is get a happy mashpia who you look up to, and that you admire is family life too.
AN
Hopefully each family can keep in mind the positive effects and decide what to do
Sholom Bayis is crucial
Most men work all week and it is a very good thing for them to have an appropriate place to get together with others as well as be inspired
At the end of the day there is nothing that can replace this
Work it through, and have your priorities straight, and talk about this and discuss this when you date.
If you can keep quiet in another, then you can do it in 770 as well. Just don’t talk during davening. Shteebles and other shuls are part of any kehilla, but davening in 770 is in a specialty and holiness of it’s own, only to be found in the Rebbe’s Shul. Instead of leaving, one can just stop talking. If this is still hard for you to do, then at least come back to daven as often as you can. It doesn’t only need to be on Shabbos.
not so relevant
Alot of times on dates bochurim and bochrois make decisions such as the girl dosent mind waiting till 2, but then b’poel everything is diffrent and she dosent agree anymore or vice versa.
Beautifly written
The moment I saw you wrote that, you lost me already.
If you’re walking on Kingston, you will be close to girls. If you’re gonna constantly distance yourself from girls on Kingston, you’ll look like a crazy person.
I was excited to read your article, but I when I saw that and was turned off.
Rabbi Yeruslavski from Eretz Yisrael on one of his visits to New York, gave a shiur on Hilchos taharas hamishpacha to yungerleit in the zal upstairs in 770. The Rebbe heard a commotion coming from the small zal and asked Rabbi Groner what is happening there? Rabbi Groner responded that Rabbi Yeruslavski came from Eretz Yisrael and is giving a shiur to yungerleit. The Rebbe requested that Rabbi Groner task Rabbi Yeruslavski to tell the participants of the shiur: “When a yungerman stays in shul after davening late talking to his friends while his wife is at home waiting, it… Read more »
How come the “anonymous Bochur” doesn’t know the simple, basic, Halacha?!
שולחן ערוך אבן העזר סימן כא סעיף א:
פגע אשה בשוק, אסור להלך אחריה, אלא רץ ומסלקה לצדדין או לאחריו
באר היטב שם ס”ק ב:
דהיינו בתוך ד’ אמותיה מהרא”י ובה”י. וכנה”ג בשם הרדב”ז ח”ב כתב דלא סגי כשירחיק ד’ אמות אלא כל שאינו מרוחק שאינו מכיר ומבחין בה בהלוכה ובתנועותיה אסור. איסור זה הוא בכל האנשים ובכל המקומות אפי’ במקום שהנשים הולכות מכוסות מכף רגל עד ראש. כנה”ג בשם הרדב”ז ח”ב.
My guess was that it was a bochur who wrote it, but someone who either has friends or older married siblings and sees this issue. I know a lot of bochurim do share his opinion. And I understand where it is coming from. But as a wife of a man who davens b’avodah, I agree very much with the points made in this article, that if you are truly holding on that level, I am sure that your wife will appreciate it and understand it and will support it. (At least I hope so! If not, there will probably be… Read more »
You sound very emesdik. I’m curious to know what you do practically on long shabbosim. My husband also comes home late and would love practical ideas, not just kvetching.
I would love to hear some inspiration from you as well as tips on how to manage the long Shabbos morning/afternoon with a handful of treasure.
– A fellow wife and mother doing the same boruch hashem
This is story, and the previous, is a prime example of why more and more families are moving out of crown heights. Let people be. Husbands should not leave their wives home all shabbos afternoon with the kids, that’s not normal. Just let people be. This is the toxicity of crown heights, that has turned so many people off and away from it. Be a good yid, be a chossid, be whatever you choose to be. We are all Yidden, and serve hashem in our own ways. Lchaim
But that’s what he was discussing in 770…
Aha, catch 28.
What are you gonna do now?
I truly appreciate this very realistic, down to earth article – that discusses a very important topic in Jewish Family life and shalom bayis. I think this article gives “permission” to the silently suffering wife to feel validated, heard and it gives her “space” to speak up and be heard, if need be. Thank you, again.
The biggest bait and switch of all is the way bochurim are pressured to be one way in yeshivah and the second that comes to a close they’re pressured to take up completely new values. They are the punching bag of the community. During yeshivah their autonomy doesn’t matter and they’re free choice is highly disregarded, they’re questioned for almost everything they do. After yeshivah their autonomy doesn’t matter and they’re pressured (often with contempt or disgust) to follow completely different values. I’m not even talking about the Rabbi’s point, just his tone. How condescending, why do you think you… Read more »
not appropriate
That bochurim should be free (or frei, rather) as they grow up and then also when they’re married? They shouldn’t be accountable? Would you think their wife should also be like this? Free to do whatever she wants and make her own decisions? Because that doesn’t sound like a marriage (a partnership). Marriage is a lot of responsibility on both sides and should require listening and being listened to on both sides. That is a truly G-dly marriage. When two people are accountable to each other and working together. That is a beautiful thing.
that’s fine. But this article is written in such a patronizing way, frankly the way that bochurim are treated and spoken to throughout their yeshivah careers. Had his point been the one you’re making, that would be fine. Those are certainly valid points. Bochurim do have responsibility, married people have responsibilities. But people deserve respect, and frankly it seems that bochurim are not treated with any. Not by their teachers and mentors, and apparently not by their community overall.
I’m not sure if I understood the point of the article. While most farbrengens are nice the real ones were with the rebbe back in the day. I highly doubt the younger generation went through those farbrengens. Most farbrengens nowadays are like a kiddish club where friends get together drink an enormous amount of alcohol and chat about who knows what. While this is exciting many of these guys get home drunk act silly or aggressive to their wives and families. Otherwise they pass out leaving their wives with no one to talk with until Sunday. If your true desire… Read more »
Absolutely agree!!! I’ve watched some of the men leave from farbrengens completely drunk, and honestly it’s disheartening because IMO it’s irresponsible and wrong to be in such a state. What can you possibly retain and take away from the farbrengen if you can’t remember anything discussed or said in your drunken stupor? A lot of the wives at my shul don’t like it that their husbands do this and come home drunk, but they say nothing because “it’s just what Lubavitch men do” and it causes a lot of sadness for them. It’s just like you said, if these were… Read more »
I was a new BT in Crown Heights when I went to a shabbos meal by a family I am now really close to. The husband came back from a farbrengan, very late, and very drunk. His wife tried to get him to go rest but he sat at the table and breched halfway through. I was very uncomfortable but was dan l’kaf zechus and assumed maybe he accidentally drank too much that one time. I didn’t let it ruin my opinion of Lubavitchers. It turns out that was indeed the case but I have seen many instances of drunken… Read more »
Why is this only an issue on shabbos ?
The whole week my husband is not home from 9-7 I’m home alone with the kids all day, the house is a wreck cuz the kids are everywhere ,I need my husband home every day
U guys are complaining abt shabbos……
How do the bills get paid?
“A proper women is the one who does the will of her husband” states the gemara and even how the Rebbe explains it, find me ONE couple that goes by that? In reality rabbi it’s the man who follows the womens will. Like you expressed: the reality is most married men who end up farbrengening late is because they have trouble in paradise and cant face a problem with her. THATS REALITY! And this is even happening to men your age. So to those I say: man up! It’s not easy? Then dont preach quotes from the gemara or Rebbe… Read more »
The Rabbi brought this piece along and quoted what the Rebbe said it is meant to mean!
“The Rebbe explained it to mean that “she does what she knows (detects) is the true will of her husband.” That is, what his neshama really wants. If the husband was really so Chassidish and couldn’t live without that farbrengen, I’m pretty sure that (at least in most cases) she would live with it.”
What the Rebbe said is one thing. What men want is something else (to erase problems from their wives in their homes, which they do use farbrengens for) and what women end up deciding for their husbands to follow in the long run is TOTALLY entirely a different story – that’s reality!
It’s not chassidish to go to a farbrengen at the expense of your family.
Shabbos day should be a proper shabbos meal at home with family. Sometimes an exception can be made for a kiddush or farbrengen but a proper shabbos meal should be the norm.
I don’t allow my daughters to visit friends on shabbos who don’t have a normal meal shabbos day. Shabbos has structure, not endless hours of boredom and nothingness, which includes scrounging in the fridge for whatever you feel like eating.
Amein v’amein to all of this!!
This response piece is cynical and really just nasty, like questioning the Bochur’s motives and if he’s even a Bochur, and doesn’t contribute much to the conversation.
Be better.
my wife, she is chasidish but with it like we go to the superbowl etc and she let’s me farbreng
so just saying you can find both of those together
Why start a argument between men and women? Just let everyone live their lives and relax.
(this is for this article and the bochurs article)
Dear Rabbi,nice don’t understand how you can lecture someone that you don’t even believe. Maybe it really was a bochur. Why not just respond to the writer as if they are a bochur.
It appear that you are just getting over your trauma of waiting your time In 770.
No, you don’t like it when we assume things about you, don’t do that about others.
Any Bucher. overheard a girls conversation, Especially if he has more the one sister he can have this conversation in a very kosher way.
Get Real ! Its just that this Bucher has the guts to say it.
And as for Everyone with an Opinion It All Depends on THE PARTICULAR shabbos. Not The Husband Not the wife.
there is the shabbos the the wife was up all night with the kids. Etc
there is the shabbos that the kids are in camp and the little girl/boy is very well behaved. Etc.
This is tooooo funny😃
A response with a name attached
As a hanhala member in a yeshiva I can say this with confidence, that every bocher/YunGerman has their stuff they struggle with and everyone has to pick their own battle, and a lot of people have a issue with choosing the WRONG battle, for example these wife’s who get mad at their husbands for farbranging… at the end of the day these men are trying to do the right thing and it’s coming from a good place, just at the same time they have a little fun by drinking etc. maybe this wife should be upset how her husband goes… Read more »
Your 100% percent right…
These days everything is so backwards that all we do is blame other ppl.
WE NEED MOSHIACH NOW!!!
AD MASAI!!!
This would be great if the farbrengens of today were still like the ones in the Rebbe’s day, but a LOT of times all they are are social drinking parties and the guys come home thoroughly drunk! What good is a farbrengen if you get so toasted you can’t even remember what was discussed?!
“Besides the issue of a bochur walking in such close proximity to girls…”
This is too much lol
I think that the husbands are doing the parnasa part and they should be able to have that one day where they could enjoy themselves and be in a chassidishe atmosphere. besides, even if he comes late he still can be with his family for most of shabbos
really, well these days men and women are doing the parnassa, so maybe it should be the day for the women to have enjoyment and relax because they do everything else…
In today’s age, one man’s salary is not enough, and the woman goes to work too.
most often there are two working parents. and even IF the wife doesn’t work any hours outside of the home, she works a 24/7 job as a mother. If you think she doesn’t need your help, or doesn’t deserve time off to recuperate and time with you, you should tell your kallah how you see this. It will help weed out girls who expect to have a partner.
Esteemed gentleman of the internet, we gather once again
You say: “Every choice has a price tag. You can’t be looking for a ‘Chassidishe but a slightly modern girl.’” I say; Trust me, I’m not looking for a girl who is modern at all. But your sentiment is dogmatic and what you are saying can be very misleading. We are humans. We are definitely not the labels others may place on us nor are we defined by the labels we may place on ourselves. We are a composite being made up of our Divine and Animal souls with the intellectual soul brokering arrangements between the two. Our goals, ideals,… Read more »