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Sunday, 17 Av, 5779
  |  August 18, 2019
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    A Prenatal Check is Problematic

    From the COLlive inbox: A pregnant woman tells of her discovery of a routine check that is against the Rebbe's position on sonograms. Update: A Midwife responds. Full Story

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    thank you
    Guest
    thank you

    for sharing!

    Thank you!
    Guest
    Thank you!

    For sharing this information!

    Doctor's orders
    Guest
    Doctor's orders

    i asked a chabad rov and he said that if the doctor says that its necessary than its okay to have it done. the rebbe was only against it for the first 3 months

    Ridiculous
    Guest
    Ridiculous

    How stupid can you get the safety of the baby is the most important and most obgyns do not have a fetal stethoscope. So nowadays using a doppler is not a choice its a must. The doctors are not trained with fetal stethoscope so who says they even know how to use it. Yes the rebbe said 20 years ago not to do a sonogram but things have change!!!!! Be practical and realistic!

    fetoscope
    Guest
    fetoscope

    they are virtually non existent

    careful
    Guest
    careful

    Please be careful when making blanket statements in the name of the Rebbe. Many rabbonim hold that the 2nd sinogram is actually NOT considered “routine” since there are preventative measures which can be taken if they find certain complications. Ask your rov or mashpia and follow their directives.

    Very Informative
    Guest
    Very Informative

    I was just wondering about what exactly the Rebbe’s stand is regarding sonograms, as I am B”H expecting.

    Most Doctors don’t even ask you if you’d like to have a sonogram – they just do it as routine. Do you just tell them you prefer not to have any ultrasound?

    Ask your Rav
    Guest
    Ask your Rav

    When I asked my rav, i was told to use the doppler! So ask before your OWN rav first!

    Ask a rov
    Guest
    Ask a rov

    Please don’t jump to your own conclusions without asking rabbonim.

    You never know
    Guest
    You never know

    As far as I have heard, the Rebbe was against ultrasounds during a time period that medically not much was available. BH my life was saved through having had an ultrasound. For the 90% who have no issues it might not be necessary, but who knows if you will be in the 10% who can be helped or saved because of an ultrasound. Im always amazed how people can put down medicine and ultrasounds when it comes to pregnancy – instead just say BH you had it easy without complications.

    I doubt
    Guest
    I doubt

    I DOUBT Anyone asked the rebbe about using a doppler. I grew up during the time that sonograms started becoming more popular or routine, so i knew the Rebbe was against the routine ultrasound- i was there
    so i definiely would have known that he meant the same with the doppler but we didn’t hear a word about it. i really think he never voiced his opposition.

    Medical Advances in Maternal-Fetal surgery!
    Guest
    Medical Advances in Maternal-Fetal surgery!

    Routine ultrasounds have become the gold standard of care. This does not go against what the Rebbe had in mind mostly due to the advance and ability to do fetal surgery (with the fetus still in the mother). When the Rebbe was wrote about unnecessary Ultrasounds, fetal surgery was in its infancy. Regular Ultrasounds are the standard – and even more frequent in Israel (which has the best experience with womens health issues). Imagine this case: A woman has an ultrasound and it is discovered after further testing that the fetus’s spine is not forming properly. What happens? When the… Read more »

    Choices we make
    Guest
    Choices we make

    Each practice is also very different. If you are in a practice that insists on the sonogram, there are other options if you wish to opt out of it.

    All Chabad rabbanim agree
    Guest
    All Chabad rabbanim agree

    All mainstream rabbanim say that fetal monitors and and dopplers are totally fine. Most say that the second trimester sonogram is ok too. If there is a specific issue that can be checked and measures can be taken as a result then that is also a valid reason to take one. ALWAYS ask your rav. DO NOT go by hearsay. (P.S. Rabbi Groner is neither a Rav it a Dr. he is a wonderful Jew that had the zchus of knowing many answers the Rebbe gave, that does not qualify him as an authority on what the Rebbe’s opinion would… Read more »

    Irressponsible
    Guest
    Irressponsible

    You have no understanding of what is medically involved here, ch’v, you should never know, but your stance doesn’t take into account all of the very real problems the doctors look for in these “routine” tests- there is nothing “routine” here at all, just very real medical need.

    Please ask a RAV
    Guest
    Please ask a RAV

    Don’t rely on an article on Collive for your Halachic decisions. That was this particular woman’s answer, but many other women have been told by a Rav specifically to take sonograms etc…

    I was just there
    Guest
    I was just there

    I do understand this, and as a Chossid of the Rebbe I want to do what the Rebbe tells us to do.

    However recently the lives of my babies where saved because of a routine ultrasound. Before you reject it please find out what the Rebbe really wanted.
    (we went to a midwife and she wanted to do a sonogram just because she wanted to see the babies, That you can refuse but here are many things modern day science can help/save.)

    Please please make sure there is no purpose before you refuse it!!

    respectful doctor
    Guest
    respectful doctor

    I found that some doctors are very locked into the way things are done, or the way they do it – routine exams and tests. There are doctors who are much more respectful of the spiritual approach of the patient and they will explain what is necessary and why, and what is just routine and not necessarily needed or just done to protect against medical malpractice. When possible or as much as possible, it’s important to include these issues when you research what doctor to use.

    to 4
    Guest
    to 4

    your tone is very disrespectful. some people are very cautious to follow the Rebbs advice. if you dont believe in something, keep it to yourself but dont put down others who are trying to do the right thing. and guess what? sonograms are not as safe as you think! be practical and realistic!! doctors wont tell you the risks because in their eyes the benefits outweigh them. but anyone doing what they can to follow Rebbes advice is to be commended. ‘using words like ‘stupid’ is totally out of line here.

    Ridiculous
    Guest
    Ridiculous

    The rebbe was against contact lenses as well when they first came out, for health reasons, so are you going to tell me now that their safe the rebbe would be against it?!
    Times change, technology advances, the rebbe never said it as a halachic psak rather for safety reasons, and if today a sonogram is safer that’s what should be done, That’s what a rov will say as well. (בטלה הטעם בטלה הדבר)

    Moshe Chaim Edelstein
    Guest
    Moshe Chaim Edelstein

    yes, we need to be very careful in quoting what the Rebbe zy”a said and did not say; further what was said to one does not necessarily apply to another.

    As a mother who gave birth to a healthy baby, but suffered complications.
    Guest
    As a mother who gave birth to a healthy baby, but suffered complications.

    Iwouldn’t have a lot of the problems I have, had I had an ultrasound.

    what if?
    Guest
    what if?

    what if cv the cord was wrapped around??? i know a mother who could have prevented two still borns by using a sonogram! and she almost had a third but bh tey caught it

    to # 4
    Guest
    to # 4

    “what the rebbe said 20 years ago…things have changed….” i’m sorry, but the rebbe is the rebbe and his words are forever. are you not aware that the rebbe had exceptional understanding of science? do you think the nasi hador made a mistake? also, are you aware that only in the last decade have there been studies supporting serious potential risks of sonograms? the rebbe was saying this YEARS ago (more than 20, by the way). he was well ahead of his time! that being said, it is a very delicate issue and each woman must consult her rav. another… Read more »

    Ultrasound Autism connection?
    Guest
    Ultrasound Autism connection?

    Ever since ultrasounds have become the standard (the past 40 years) The rate of autism has also gone up.

    A Website for Exploring the Topic

    Could prenatal ultrasounds be a major contributor to the increase in autism?

    This website is a repository of information related to the hypothesis, both pro and con. Over 50 papers and articles are listed and linked on the Evidence page and are referenced throughout the website.

    http://www.ultrasound-autism.org

    www.declineultrasound.org
    Guest
    www.declineultrasound.org

    Why you would decline prenatal ultrasound? Per the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA) guidelines*, prenatal ultrasound should be reserved for specific medical reasons. In many, if not most, medical practices, that standard is being ignored. While there is no scientific proof that ultrasound scans performed within the guidelines are unsafe, there is no compelling scientific evidence that they are safe. The intensity limits were established without testing for safety. There is compelling evidence that: Ÿ Ultrasound scans excessive in time and/or intensity can cause brain damage Ÿ Ultrasound devices have a high rate of malfunction Ÿ Many ultrasound operators… Read more »

    My story
    Guest
    My story

    When pregnant with my first child, the “routine” monitoring saved my baby’s life: My due date was actually a full month off, something the doctors only realized after I have birth. After being over 2 weeks over-due, I was induced and went through terrible and unnecessary pain, all because I refused the dating ultra sound to find out the correct due date. My baby went into shock from all the pressure and from being too early and his heart rate dropped- had I not had the monitor checking the baby’s heart, he would have been a still-born C”V! BH they… Read more »

    Rabbi Groner Clarifies
    Guest
    Rabbi Groner Clarifies

    Rabbi Groner would like to clarify that these important decisions must be made in consultation with a mashpia/Rav and qualified doctor. Please do not use this forum as a basis for your healthcare decision.

    Not smart...
    Guest
    Not smart...

    As a medical professional I can honestly tell you that many of the decisions made to blindly follow the rebbes advice not to do ultrasounds during pregnancies is not smart. There is absolutely ZERO risks to obtaining a sonogram/ultrasound and only benefits. Ultrasounds/sonograms can detect life threatening medical conditions toward baby and/or mother. In my opinion it is not a smart idea to blindly follow the rebbes advice when you do not have the medical knowledge to back it up. I suggest you look up more research before putting you or your precious babies at risk

    BH
    Guest
    BH

    Thanks so good to know!

    High Risk
    Guest
    High Risk

    We all want to follow what the Rebbe said about ultrasound but take it from someone who has had 3 high risk pregnancies if it was not for the ultrasounds I would have chas veshalom lost my kids. As it is my last was born very prem and if not for the tests he would not have been born at all chas vashalom. Each person needs to make an informed decision and go by what their Rov and doctors says. They are the experts in these matters not us.

    hey
    Guest
    hey

    I had a midwife and she used a doppler never did a sonogram. I didn’t even notice the appointments she always put this gel on me and then that thing that look like a doppler and said she’s listening for the baby’s heartbeat! I also did a homebirth! I find that midwives know what exactly what’s going on without having to do too invasive procedures! That’s nice! There’s nothing like having a good confident midwife with lots of experience that knows what they’re doing! It’s worth it to find someone you feel comfortable with and trust! Even if you may… Read more »

    Leben Mit Der Tzait!
    Guest
    Leben Mit Der Tzait!

    BH we live in great medical times, our parents and grandparents wished that they had the medical technology we have at our fingertips today. I use to be in the same school of thought, that one of the many reasons the Rebbe was against sonograms, was due to the fact that it is disturbing the baby while it’s learning torah. A friend of ours told us an amazing story, that made us realize that we must live in our time. She had a Sonogram that illustrated that her baby had a severe case of club feet. She researched the best… Read more »

    SAVING LIVES
    Guest
    SAVING LIVES

    Obviously, every situation is different. Having said that, the Rebbe’s negative opinion of ultrasound technology seems to be quite inclusive; many lives have been saved by following even advice of the Rebbe that seemed nonsensical at the time it was given, and that fact needs to be weighed against the opinion of well-meaning doctors. As far as personal experience goes, I (and of course my wife) cannot recommend enough the use of a highly experienced midwife. Most of our children were born at home; the women who my wife has worked have blown us away time and again with their… Read more »

    not so black and white...
    Guest
    not so black and white...

    ask another one of Mazkirus, I believe if the doctor recommends it then you can to do it ..

    Airplances, Contact lenses etc.
    Guest
    Airplances, Contact lenses etc.

    At the times the Rebbe was apparently also for flying transatlantic with 4 engine airplanes only and against contact lenses. At the time of those directives the technology warranted those, however today in both cases the technology and safety has advance so much that with a bit of common sense one can assume the Rebbe directives were meant only for the time period when the Rebbe was asked about them and in its present technological/safety state at the time. And anyway good luck in finding a 4 engined airplane today…

    To #23
    Guest
    To #23

    Cord being wrapped is one of the simplest issues that even a midwife at home can fix! No need for any ultra sounds or monitoring! An experienced midwife will check naturally and will slip her fingers around the neck to move the cord around the neck.

    many medical prationers practice deffensive (self protecting) medicine
    Guest
    many medical prationers practice deffensive (self protecting) medicine

    Regardless of impact down the line

    Early sonagrams are now linked to sensory and spectrum issues later

    Studies are being done duento the growing body of evidence sugesting a correlation

    Now their researching to establish causality

    doctor reccomending is not enough
    Guest
    doctor reccomending is not enough

    Only if the doctor claims that there is a clear and specific danger which can only be prevented by ultrasound

    To save a life its ok to compromise the childs quality of life

    Our child that has had early sonagrams happens to have been born with spectrum sensory issues

    Ive heard the same from other parents of children with sensory issues as well
    Coincidently, that child had more sonagrams (early on) than the syblings without spectrum or sensory developmental issues

    Times change
    Guest
    Times change

    Then sonograms were not like they were today. They are safe and most chosen teachers actually teach then to new chasonim that. Your child health comes first if your child dies in utero you run the risk of a lot of complications. If a Dr highly recommends it then if something happens you can blame yourself. Getting on all the time is one think but not getting it and not letting the dr hear the heart rate is insane.

    Dangerous
    Guest
    Dangerous

    Sending out such black and white messages are nothing short of dangerous!! c”v NO ONE should base their decision as to if they should or shouldnt have sonograms, merely on this article. A rav and doctor must always be consulted before such a major decision is made!No way can one generalize, as each and every single case has its own situation and reason attached, and I feel very strongly that the author of this article should , herself, stress most strongly, and even go as far as to take back what she wrote! Imagine if c”v, someone avoids a sonogram… Read more »

    stillbirth
    Guest
    stillbirth

    hate to be sensationalist.

    with my first pregnancy, doctors wanted ultrasound bec they suspected dates were off. we asked and were encouraged not to take the ultrasound.
    at 42 weeks (which we have no idea of accuracy bec I didnt do ultrasound) I delivered a stillbirth.
    please please please consult a rav first

    Science based research
    Guest
    Science based research

    In all areas of health there are many parts of the science based research that are hidden away from publicity. The parts that are publicized are fear based and not all acurate because part of the study is hidden away. Many times pharmaceaticul companies fund the education of doctor’s and the information being taught is not accuate. Because the articles that are published are deliberate and the one’s not published but studies done are not taught to the doctors. So it’s not the doctor’s problem for not educated. It’s the consumer’s problem to educate themselves and get the information of… Read more »

    Don't blindly believe this letter
    Guest
    Don't blindly believe this letter

    I currently have a high risk pregnancy and I didn’t consult a Rov about whether to do an ultrasound or not. I already had 2 done and am scheduled for another one soon. After receiving the doctors orders for a third one. My spouse was hesitant so I opened up igros and got a clear answer from the Rebbe, saying – “You should follow the advice of your doctors.” So making a blanket statement that the Rebbe was against ultrasounds is wrong, misleading and in essence taking the Rebbe’s horoas out of context. What was instructed for one was not… Read more »

    Not a halachick issue
    Guest
    Not a halachick issue

    This is not a halachick issue and therefore doesn’t need a Rov’s psak.

    It boils down to whether or not the Rebbe’s opinion on ultrasound is applicable today. There are compelling arguments for both the pros and cons.

    I think that many of us don’t realize how far ahead of the times the Rebbe was, and as some of the previous posts have pointed out, there is evidence that ultrasound does have a negative effect on our children.

    Outrage!
    Guest
    Outrage!

    Why are you reading books and asking the Rebbe’s secretary?! ASK A ROV! A chassidishe rov who knows the Rebbe’s positions and who can factor in the specifics of your situation should be the ONLY indicator for how you ask. I can tell you that with the case of my wife’s pregnancy these tests (which we took with the permission of our chassidishe rov) were life-saving. Is that clear? They were lifesaving! Attention COL: maybe instead of a midwife’s response, we can get a response from a Chassidishe Rov? Obviously a rov’s response will vary from case to case, but… Read more »

    Ch mother
    Guest
    Ch mother

    I had a medical problem during pregnancy and the doctor recommended routine sonograms. The Rebbe answered me not to do routine sonograms but to do it only if the doctor saw a need for it and to go with what the doctor says

    Premise
    Guest
    Premise

    Concerning comments about the Rebbe’s opinion: It all depends on a premise: Is the Rebbe: (1) a great man, scholar, wise person, biggest Talmid Chacham, etc. (2) Or, is the Rebbe all of the above, plus the fact that he is the “Nosi”, the head and brain, through which all Hashpaos, physical and spiritual come trough him, as it says in the many maamorim and letters of the Rebbeim. And as the possuk says in Tehilim (90;1) “Tefila L’moshe Ish HoElokim”. Chabad chassidim who learnt the many maamorim and letters of the Rebbeim know that #2 is correct, and therefore… Read more »

    grateful
    Guest
    grateful

    Yay Chayaenka. Your advice is sound, and helps patients feel more empowered.

    to #39
    Guest
    to #39

    As a medical professional who specializes/focuses on the nervous system and muscles, as my professional career – I have yet to see solid evidence/articles that sonograms cause sensory integration dysfunction (SID). On the contrary, sonograms are only sound waves. Nothing more. The sound waves bounce off the baby and produce the image. They are 100% more safe than x-rays or CT scans. Sound waves via sonograms do NOT cause SID, which is caused due to a decreased ability to organize the PROPRIOCEPTIVE and kinesthetic input. I suggest you do research as I sincerely think you are blindly following the rebbe… Read more »

    I don't think that this is so applicable today -
    Guest
    I don't think that this is so applicable today -

    Back then there were a lot of unknowns about ultrasounds that today we know. Like the midwife said, ultrasounds save lives. The Rebbe was against ultrasounds just to see the baby’s gender. When there is an issue – like bleeding, etc. – then there should be an ultrasound. The fetal anatomy scan is important. So are the ultrasounds they do after you pass your due date. These ultrasounds save lives. I know someone who went for a routine ultrasound and found out that she had identical twins with TTTS. If she had not gone she would never have known and… Read more »

    The Rebbe didn't say to NEVER do an ultra sound
    Guest
    The Rebbe didn't say to NEVER do an ultra sound

    The Rebbe said not to do it unless medically necessary. This article is very informative and thank you to the author for sharing this information about the droppler. The Rebbe’s words are emes and apply forever. Especially that we see that although many of you are saying things have changed, research does show that there may be a link to autism etc. I have a question the other other way around: Why would someone want to take a risk for their child by doing an ultra sound? Of course, if c”v there is a medical problem, you should do it… Read more »

    to 45
    Guest
    to 45

    Yes the rebbe was way ahead of the times. And still, at that time the results of the ultrasounds were being used for research and knowledge. Today, results of the ultrasound are being used to save lives. Although the rebbe could very well have known that in the future ultrasounds would be helpful in saving lives, at that time it wasn’t being used that way and therefore the rebbe advised us to avoid any routine ones. I often wonder what the rebbe would advise us today. My five year old is alive and well today because I had an ultrasound… Read more »

    Always Consult with a Rov!
    Guest
    Always Consult with a Rov!

    As a “high-risk” mother, one sonogram was recommended by my frum doctor (who held by the Rebbe) towards the end of pregnancy for VALID MEDICAL REASONS. The Rebbe gave me brocha v’haskama to do this one sonogram.
    Each situation therefore is just that: individual.

    Penina Metal

    To #39
    Guest
    To #39

    My sister has a child with sensory issues and she NEVER gets ultrasounds! I have a child with sensory issues and I always get the 2 important ultrasounds! My point is that it’s a GENETIC condition! Please no more rubbish without scientific proof. Next we’ll hear it causes autism.

    clarification
    Guest
    clarification

    please please post as a note on the top of this article
    to please ask your rav in every situation and not to rely on this article as halacha” or what to do from here on… some people read the article and start making themselves crazy. this is an op-ed opening the floor for discussion and would benefit so many if you clarify this in bold letters thank you

    Nothing's really changed...
    Guest
    Nothing's really changed...

    Thank you 48 and 52… There is also the chassidishe concept (and more recently, scientific quantum theory, although it is not quite understood) that we create our reality. If you choose to follow the Rebbe’s directive (which in many cases may be to ask a Rov, or follow a doctor’s opinion or do the opposite of their instruction) then you connect to the Rebbe, and his spiritual foresight with clear Bitachon, and you can rely on a beautiful outcome. Today, different people choose to connect in different ways and on different levels. Not very different than it was before gimmel… Read more »

    Stay away from doctors as much as possible!
    Guest
    Stay away from doctors as much as possible!

    Doctors will tell you they have practice, they know what they’re talking about, don’t believe them. Doctors know very little, they know what it says in there text books and what they experienced in people which came to them, but they are absolutely blind to endless amount of researches who reserched specific issues and found new ways to help and heel. They are run by the government and other major corporations, who have other calculations other then your health. The rebbe always said to go to professional doctor, there is no doubt that a midwife is the professional in this… Read more »

    don't conflate sonograms & contact lenses
    Guest
    don't conflate sonograms & contact lenses

    The Rebbe’s opinion on contact lenses is that the eye is very sensitive organ and certain fluids and chemicals sit on the surface allowing it to function. Science still has not figured out exactly how it works (transmits to the brain, taking in the entire image and sorting it out). The Rebbe was opposed to contacts since it sits on the eye itself and we don’t know the long term damage it can cause. A short time before the stroke in 5752, someone asked the Rebbe if in light of recent advances in contact lens has his opinion changed and… Read more »

    Pinchos Woolstone
    Guest
    Pinchos Woolstone

    each person should ask a Rav who has expertise in this area of Halacha.Please be aware not everything you hear about what the Rebbe zy”a saying this or that is correct or applicable to every situation.

    asking a rav
    Guest
    asking a rav

    You need to ask a RAV! WHO IS knowledgeable in these specific matters!!!!!!!!!!! I ASKED A RAV AND RAV SAID TO ASK ROCHEL VAIL AND DO WHATEVER SHE SAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    rabbi groner
    Guest
    rabbi groner

    Rabbi Groner has stated that this is one of the things that the Rebbe stated that he would never change his mind and he should never be asked again the Rebbe stated that he would never allow ultrasounds and if its pekuach nefesh for the mother consult a rov

    sensory issues in ny???
    Guest
    sensory issues in ny???

    Interesting enough, almost every one of my friends in CH have kids with sensory issues and those that don’t are said to be in denial about their childrens issues…..

    asked a chassidishe Dr.
    Guest
    asked a chassidishe Dr.

    When my (frum) OBGYN told me how important the second trimester sonogram is and how many problems it can prevent I asked a Lubavitcher Dr. in C.H who conformed how important it is.

    4-Engined Airplanes
    Guest
    4-Engined Airplanes

    To #36: Although you’re probably right that flying two-engine planes is less of a problem today, don’t be so fast to speak… both Boeing and Airbus still manufacture long-haul jets with four engines and they are in very common use for international flights. If someone wants to fly only such planes internationally based on the Rebbe’s advice, A) he can easily, and B) I absolutely respect that. As for the issue at hand, one needs to consult a chasidishe mashpia and midwife if a doctor recommends an ultrasound. One of our sons had a very complex birth and was absolutely… Read more »

    TO # 39
    Guest
    TO # 39

    IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON,BEING AN PROFESSION,DOESN’T NESSARY MEAN WE ARE ABOVE G-D ALMIGHTY,SUDDENLY I NOW UNDERSTAND THE REBBE DIDN’T WANT FOR UNNESSARY REASONS,I HAD ONE CLOSE TO THE END OF MY FIRST,BECAUSE THE DR FELTIT WAS NESS,THIS WAS WITH THE REBBE BROCHA,,TODAY MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO CONNECT TO HASHEM,IT’S NOT SO HIDDEN ANYMORE,LIKE WE HAVE BEEN SAYING WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF GEULA,ALL THE BEST,GEULA IMM

    Maise Shehoyo
    Guest
    Maise Shehoyo

    Our doctor insisted on a sonogram (at the end of pregnancy), we asked the Rebbe and the Rebbe said to change doctors! Our son was born with a knot in the cord. It was Adar, so I guess he was dancing… BH everything is fine and he is married to a fine young woman. I do not know who this is or is not applicable to; just sharing our experience.

    Eliezer Shemtov
    Montevideo

    Moshe
    Guest
    Moshe

    #62, Please indicate the date of Rabbi Groner’s statement and to whom.

    Comment # 20
    Guest
    Comment # 20

    Please explain to me what was wrong with sonogram technology in the past, that was the basis for the Rebbe advising against using it – unless absolutely necessary.

    And what changed in the technology today that would address and remove the reason for the Rebbe’s urging caution of its use.

    You make it sound like you know something I don’t.

    Comment # 29
    Guest
    Comment # 29

    Is this a lubavitcher run website???

    Comment # 29 reads in part “There is absolutely ZERO risks to obtaining a sonogram/ultrasound and only benefits.”

    Are you saying that the Rebbe erred when cautioning against sonograms – in cases where it is not absolutely necessary (as determined by a Rofe Yedid in consultation with your mashpia)???

    Is there not some basic level of respect that one must adhere to in order to be published on this website???

    On balance
    Guest
    On balance

    First of all, thousands of people can testify – first hand – that following the Rebbe’s advice, even advice that seemingly makes no sense paid off very well. Having said that, I don’t think the Rebbe declared ultrasounds ASSUR. He cautioned against constant use of it. If a Rofei Yedid says there is a specific issue at hand and a ultrasound is necessary, that seems to be a very different story. Lets try to stay clear of blanket statements. The Rebbe’s general advice is not to perform ROUTINE ultrasound. If there is a specific need, contact YOUR Rofe Yedid and… Read more »

    sensationalism
    Guest
    sensationalism

    I have a child with sensory issues and I did have ultrasounds. Working in the special needs field, I believe it is really wrong to start blaming childrens disabilities on medical theories that haven’t been adequately proven. I understand why parents might feel the need to do it. I would also like answers, but you need to realise that this sensationalism can cause problems that are much worse. ie the menengitis outbreak in the frum communities of Brooklyn last year. I have always had the 20 week ultrasound to make sure the baby is okay. With my last child, if… Read more »

    it usually doesn't help anyways
    Guest
    it usually doesn't help anyways

    press the doctors why need it, and if they give a good reason- ask whether anything can actually be done if a problem does show up ch”v. Usually they can’t do anything anyways.

    There was a long article in Mishpacha about this and many stories were brought to show that it happens that women get ultra sounds and then they discover something horrible. Th mother goes into hysteria, anxiety and panic. Then the baby comes out perfectly normal in the end! And the doctors say, oh well it’s only a machine after all.

    don’t do it to yourself!

    confusion
    Guest
    confusion

    I think this issue is being confused unnecessarily. Yes, the Rebbe was against routine ultrasounds and if the Rebbe was against it, we should be too. There could definitely be problems we are not aware of. But if there is a medical reason then ultrasound can be a useful tool. So it all depends on the person’s situation. The Rebbe never forbade doing any ultrasounds but routine ones to see if it is a boy or a girl definitely should be discouraged.

    The Rebbe knows!!!!!
    Guest
    The Rebbe knows!!!!!

    I trust the Rebbe on this! unless there is a medical danger which can only be helped via Ultrasoound, i would not subject my child to this method even if the doctors are being pushy! yes, their agenda is primarily to exaust any and every possible procedure which can remotely protect them in the future! even if it is NO ACTUAL DANGER! trust the Rebbe the research is slowly proving that some children are highly suseptable to sensory issues! when subjected to early fetal ultrasound! do a simple test, ask ten parents of children with spectrum/sensory issues, if that child… Read more »

    To 52
    Guest
    To 52

    P.s. Those who follow the Rebbe’s horaos, will merit to receive the Rebbe’s brochos for healthy children. May we all have revealed brochos with healthy children. So you know who will get the Rebbe’s brochos? So you know what Hashem will decide about who will be healthy, and who will not ch’v? Your statement is disgusting! Do you not know anyone who has lost a pregnancy? Has had an unhealthy baby? You need to look in the mirror and understand that we are all here doing our best to follow the will of G-d! Part of the basic halacha is… Read more »

    they only let you get a sonogram if you have a valid reason too!
    Guest
    they only let you get a sonogram if you have a valid reason too!

    they dont just do them without a reason.

    Only if Medical danger!
    Guest
    Only if Medical danger!

    mere pressure from doctor without an actual danger being claimed… dont cave in to pressure by a doctor! ONLY ONLY if the child is at risk do to an unusual development or indication.

    the number of spectrum children has ballooned ever since ultrasound became mainstream and very common

    the answer was also a bracha!
    Guest
    the answer was also a bracha!

    When I wrote in for the Rebbe’s bracha to have a sonogram for the purpose of determining a due date, I did not receive an answer. So, I refused the sonogram. When the doctor got nervous, I wrote again, and didn’t get an answer. So, we refused the sonogram again. When the doctor threatened to remove himself from the case, I wrote the Rebbe again, and received a positive answer to have the sonogram. The test was scheduled for Wednesday afternoon; the baby was born on Wednesday morning! However, no one but a Rebbe can do that. As it’s understood,… Read more »

    fetascope.
    Guest
    fetascope.

    Alot of commentators are upset because they dont like being told what to do/ what the Rebbe wants of us, especially about this sensitive issue. It can be upsetting, however, we know we should just speak to someone trusted about the issue.
    For those who are interested, you can get a fetascope for like 20 bucks on amazon. Its fun to use at home and you can bring it in and your doctor or midwife should be accommodating.

    52 = Perfectly said!
    Guest
    52 = Perfectly said!

    Thank you!!!!

    Clarification
    Guest
    Clarification

    just because it doesnt always result in Sensory issues (spectrum etc) does not mean that certain children are genetically more prone for their system to react to the prenatal sonogram in negitive result R”L ie Sensory complications after our first child was born with Sensory issues… (and he had many sonograms at the wishes of the secular midwife) we had no idea the Rebbe said to avoid it unless a medical problem was detected or suspected. is it coincidence that all our five children ka”h who did not get any voluntary ultrasound happen to be born without sensory issues BH,… Read more »

    76 Response
    Guest
    76 Response

    It may be politically incorrect to say that following the Rebbe is a key to chaneling his brachos, however, the Rebbe also said other different statements about how to attract more of Hashem’s brachos in “Healthy viable children” specifically extra vigilance in:
    1. Mezuzos being checked annually
    2. Tfilin…
    3. Chitas Rambam
    4. Tznius and Taharas Hamishpach bhidur.
    5. The content a mother exposes herself to, during pregnancy.
    6. Cholov Yisroel

    Some kids are genetically more susceptible to Sensory issues than others!
    Guest
    Some kids are genetically more susceptible to Sensory issues than others!

    Not all fetuses exposed to sonogram need to be adversely affected in order to link Fetal Sonogram exposure to Sensory problems… Some kids are (genetically) more at risk than others to having sensory issues triggered by Fetal Sono-Stimuly! Any bombardment of Stimuli at the soft vulnerable tissue of a early stage fetus, can cause some fetuses (those with predisposition to sensory issues) to have sensory issues result by all that close up concentrated high frequency vibration projected onto their tissue. Just like sunburns, Some are more sensitive than others to get sunburnt, just because some people do get sunburned more… Read more »

    the Rebbe's view
    Guest
    the Rebbe's view

    in the end, the Rebbe is always discovered to be right!

    If theres no unusual abnormality indicating possible danger, DON’T CAVE IN TO PRESSURE FROM A DOCTOR, NURSE, MIDWIFE, MEDICAL JOURNAL, etc etc

    ushmartem meod… is Davka by following the ways the Rebbe told us to follow…

    Its not nature that ultimately decides who will live and be healthy, it Hashem!! you wont get messed over by following and trusting Hashem’s dictates communicated via the Mouth of Moshe Rabeinu… of our generation!
    Halacha, Chasidus, Aseh Lecha Rav, Following the Horaos of the Rebbe, Thats how to achieve (lasting) success in all areas of life.

    google it!! "Scientists are uncovering disturbing evidence that those sneak peeks at baby could damage a developing brain" = the Rebbe was right after all! science is starting to recognize the validity of the Rebbe's approach!
    Guest
    google it!! "Scientists are uncovering disturbing evidence that those sneak peeks at baby could damage a developing brain" = the Rebbe was right after all! science is starting to recognize the validity of the Rebbe's approach!

    do we (chasidim) really need validation from science to catch up to the Rebbe?? in order to trust the Rebbe???

    just google this quote!
    “Scientists are uncovering disturbing evidence that those sneak peeks at baby could damage a developing brain.”

    Rov Moreh horo'o with Answers from the Rebbe
    Guest
    Rov Moreh horo'o with Answers from the Rebbe

    In the course of multiple pregnancies my wife and I were zocheh to receive multiple answers from the Rebbe in relation to Ultrasound. The first was in relation to a routine ultrasound. The Rebbe answered no. The next was in relation to a pregnancy where it appeared the fetus was larger than it should be so either the dates were wrong or there were twins. The Rebbe said to take one. It turned out a single fetus and dates as normal. At first glance what difference would it make if the dates were wrong or there were twins . Who… Read more »

    to 87 Please write your name since your claiming things in the Rebbe's name. ANONYMOUSLY!
    Guest
    to 87 Please write your name since your claiming things in the Rebbe's name. ANONYMOUSLY!

    You wrote: 1. “The Rebbe’s position (to avoid ultrasound when no danger) is not a “Chok” Not a religious directive, It’s just his “medical advice”. Is out of date and not applicable nowdayas. 2. “Since technology improves, Ultrasound is now safe” 3. Instead of blanketly trusting the Rebbe’s “Medical advice”, (Avoid Sonograms unless danger is suspected) If a Rov or Doctor feels that its ok to do sonogram –even when no particular danger is suspected- then it’s prudent to trust them instead of the Rebbe’s (out dated) medical advice. My response: 1. The Rebbe’s guidence can and should be trusted… Read more »

    No life was ever saved by defying the Rebbe's Guideline!
    Guest
    No life was ever saved by defying the Rebbe's Guideline!

    Aderaba! Defying the Rebbe’s guideline RL can only cause harm RL to the development of babies.

    ie If RL someone chose sonogram even when no danger to baby was suspected, THAT is was i call dangerouse, reckless and irresponsible! THAT is RL asking for problems HYR!

    Dont be smarter than the Rebbe! for your own well being and that of your children!

    The Rebbe's view is.. Save Life even at risk of Quality of Life
    Guest
    The Rebbe's view is.. Save Life even at risk of Quality of Life

    if there’s a real danger… then Saving the life supersedes the potential harm Sonogram may cause to the child’s “quality of life”

    if c”v there is a medical problem, you should utilize Sonogram, because (as someone commented earlier) it is worth saving the child’s life even if it means risking the quality of his life ie Developmental sensory problems.

    22 PURE KFIRA
    Guest
    22 PURE KFIRA

    your line of thinking is completely in conflict with reality (as defined by Torah and Chasidus)

    As long as you did your sincere best to know what torah wants you to do, the results you are left with (including your child’s issues) are Hashem’s exact gzeira for reasons that are somnehow ultimately for the good.

    the only question one needs to always ask is, Am i doing my best effort to consult Torah authorities (Mashpia, Rav etc to know what Hashem wants me todo at every step of life.

    To #37
    Guest
    To #37

    If a cord is wrapped there may be a need for an emergency C which a midwife cannot handle and the situation would not be discovered unless there was an ultrasound.

    What you are talking about is a baby coming out with the cord wrapped once around their neck, this is usually fine and easily fixed. However there are times that it happens iin utero and presents a real danger to a baby. So before you say it’s easily fixed – go for an ultrasound. You might just save your baby’s life.

    Thank you #87 Rov Moreh horo'o
    Guest
    Thank you #87 Rov Moreh horo'o

    Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience, it’s more informative than the article and all the other comments!
    Please continue to share your personal encounters of the Rebbe, yasher koach! and repeating # 57’s brochos for Hatzlocho Rabboh…and many, many, healthy chassidishe Yiddishe kinderlach for everyone 🙂 !!!

    Trust the Rebbe!
    Guest
    Trust the Rebbe!

    How many stories of the Rebbe telling people not to do surgeries when all the doctors told them to and in the end the Rebbe was right- against all doctors??? We know from so many stories that when it came to doctors vs Rebbe, the Rebbe was always right in the end. Trust the Rebbe!! How lucky we are to have a Rebbe who gave us this precious advice!! Of course if you need it for a very specific medical reason, then consult a second opinion etc, as the Rebbe himself said. But not as a first choice! How lucky… Read more »

    To everyone who thinks ultrasounds and autism/sensory issues are related:
    Guest
    To everyone who thinks ultrasounds and autism/sensory issues are related:

    In the time that we have started doing ultrasounds routinely a lot of other things have happened as well. Food is full of chemicals, children who would not have been born have been born because of medical interventions, everyone has wifi and cell phones and uses them several times a day… All of these things play a part. In addition, we have only now started to understand what autism is and how it works and therefore more and more children are being diagnosed at an early age, when in previous years they would have been severely disciplined and criticized for… Read more »

    To #91
    Guest
    To #91

    It is not kefira, she accepts that this was what Hashem wanted and decided that next time she should do her histadlus, and that means going for an ultrasound.

    i'm shocked that some people dont trust the Rebbe's guideline!!
    Guest
    i'm shocked that some people dont trust the Rebbe's guideline!!

    I bet that the same people who think the Rebbe is wrong on this, are probably the same ones who reject the Rebbe’s view re “How to attract Birkas Hashem in general” All the Rebbe’s Horaos, whether they be, Mezuzos-checking, Chitas, Cholov yisroel, Kosher entertainment, Shaitul-outdoors, etc ALL these Horaos are FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT! The Rebbe cares about our literal wellbeing (not just our soul) his emphasis on Tznius & Mzuza for example was, so we can attract Hashem’s protection against harm!!! PLEASE, ONLY DO SONOGRAMS WHEN THERES A ABNORMALITY INDICATED, WHICH MAY BE DANGEROUS TO THE LIFE OF… Read more »

    To #97
    Guest
    To #97

    How will you know if there is an abnormality indicated if you don’t do an ultrasound?

    to 98, The Rebbe was aware of this question
    Guest
    to 98, The Rebbe was aware of this question

    and Guided us to abstain from “this exact exploratory” sort of sonogram!

    Moreh Horo 87 to 88 and all those following him
    Guest
    Moreh Horo 87 to 88 and all those following him

    88 your irrationality leads you to twist my words and leads you to misrepresent the Rebbe. The Rebbe instructed my wife to take the Sonogram in a situation where the risk was undeniably minimal indeed almost non existent. Twins or a wrong date. Easily handled even without a sonogram and even without knowing for sure. In fact the result was perfectly normal – one fetus and dates correct. The medical advantage in knowing for sure was minimal and no real danger, no fetus in danger etc – just there is an advantage to know which would improve the quality of… Read more »

    Doctors are fallable and far from perfect! Only listen to a doctor When Torah (and the Rebbe) requires you to! Dont ever choose a doctor over the opinion of the Rebbe! -Only on matters not already made clear by the Rebbe!
    Guest
    Doctors are fallable and far from perfect! Only listen to a doctor When Torah (and the Rebbe) requires you to! Dont ever choose a doctor over the opinion of the Rebbe! -Only on matters not already made clear by the Rebbe!

    IF THERE’S NO SPECIFIC ABNORMALITY CALLING FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION… THEN SAY NO! TO THE DOCTOR There are many motives other than the paitient’s best interest why a doctor may prescribe additional procedures etc… 1. He gets to bill more! 2. Defensive medicine aka “law-suite-medicine” 3. Laziness to use other methods which require more skill or effort on his part. 4. It saves him some time 5. its more convenient for the doctor, he gets to see 10 more patients per day =$$$ 6. Some doctors are soo busy mindlessly following the routine, they are not taking the time and effort… Read more »

    To #99
    Guest
    To #99

    Are you #97? #97 wrote an oxymoron – don’t do ultrasounds unless there is an abnormality, on the other hand don’t discover the abnormality because you don’t do ultrasounds. So I asked if #97 was aware of the inherent contradiction in their words. The Rebbe was all for saving lives and therefore I am pretty sure that if the Rebbe was alive today he would tell us to do two ultrasounds: one to date and find out how many etc. and the 20 week anatomy check. Probably also he would tell us to do ultrasounds to check meconium post-date and… Read more »

    Comment 87/100
    Guest
    Comment 87/100

    Thank you for the advice. Agree with comment 93, more informative and helpful than the article and rest of the comments put together. This is the problem nowadays. People give opinions and comments to discussions and topics of which they have no expertise! Shame on you comment 88!

    Anonymously claiming that the Rebbe backed down from his very clear and consistent position, is frankly not credible!
    Guest
    Anonymously claiming that the Rebbe backed down from his very clear and consistent position, is frankly not credible!

    If it were true as you claim, that the Rebbe promoted sonogram even when no specific danger was (already) detected, then why do you not post your name and some shred of detail to make it sound credible??

    To those calling the Rebbe's position "oxymoronic"
    Guest
    To those calling the Rebbe's position "oxymoronic"

    I choose to trust that following the Rebbe (and avoiding sonogram when there’s no specific symptom of concern) is the most responsible approach!

    Classic question
    Guest
    Classic question

    “How will I know if there’s something wrong without “regular routine exploratory” sonogram looking for problems that may be there?”

    Answer:

    Since sonogram itself is potentially damaging (to child’s entire future quality of life and function) the Rebbe clearly stated against this very type of sonogram!

    Only only if there ALREADY is a sign for concern indicating a possible threat to life… Only then, is sonogram appropriate according to the Rebbe

    In the End the Rebbe is always proven right
    Guest
    In the End the Rebbe is always proven right

    Whenever some or all doctors argued with the Rebbe, sooner or later the Rebbe was proven eons ahead of them

    #106 you are dense
    Guest
    #106 you are dense

    The ultrasound itself can possibly save the baby’s life. You will never know if you don’t check. I know several people who had NO signs of any kind of problem but their babies were saved because of the sonogram. (One of my friends did the anatomy scan and they learned that the baby would need an operation immediately after birth; they also would need to induce her if she did not give birth by week 38. Other than that she had an uneventful and normal pregnancy, thank G-d. She would NEVER HAVE KNOWN if they had not done the ultraosound.)… Read more »

    The Abnormaility which justifies a sonogram is OBVIOUSLY NOT an abnormality which requires a sonogram!!
    Guest
    The Abnormaility which justifies a sonogram is OBVIOUSLY NOT an abnormality which requires a sonogram!!

    If there are unusual -abnormal- symptoms or signs observed in a normal pregnancy, and these symptoms can possibly be indicative of a life threatening condition RL, THEN (and only then) is a sonogram justified by the Rebbe! however, if there is no specific indication or symptom of something wrong, in such a case, the Rebbe was against sonograms! yes, even if sonograms itself would be able to expose new problems not yet causing any symptoms. it is true that certain medical procedures can reveal problems we would otherwise not know about till later, yet, we do not use that logic… Read more »

    To #105
    Guest
    To #105

    The Rebbe’s positiion is not oxymoronic, your understanding (or lack thereof) of it is.

    i mean to 102
    Guest
    i mean to 102

    The Rebbe’s position is not oxymoronic, your understanding (or lack thereof) of it is.

    read 109!

    to those calling the Rebbe's guideline Oxymoronic rl
    Guest
    to those calling the Rebbe's guideline Oxymoronic rl

    You obvioiousely dont understand what the Rebbe’s position is,
    The Rebbe in general says to differ to the Opinion of two Caring experts.
    however,
    re this debate, -of whether to do Sonograms even when no specific problem has (already) been detected- on this the Rebbe DIFFERS from many doctors (ignorant) view!

    in the last few years more and more specialists are becomming aware of legitimate concerns arising about sonogram use!
    do the research!
    even the medical field is now slowly coming around to the Rebbe’s view , as the research and datta mounts

    good reason to have a sonogram
    Guest
    good reason to have a sonogram

    20 years ago I was expecting and was very nervous about the pregnancy. I wanted to have a sonogram and asked Rabbi Groner if the Rebbe would agree that I could do the sonogram just because I was so nervous, and he said yes. I had the sonogram and it turned out everything was fine.

    113 chutzpa
    Guest
    113 chutzpa

    are you trusting your judgement over the Rebbe’s

    do you know what Hashem can and cannot do, if one follows faithfully the Rebbe’s guideline??

    so long as you are checking in with those who know the Rebbe’s view and then following it bkabolas oil, you cannot get messed over by that approach! aderaba this will give maximum sayaata dshmaya!

    X