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Monday, 14 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 17, 2019

    A Little Shame Goes a Long Way

    Response to More Shocking Than Leggings": Each community has what to fix but you only get one chance to make an impression. Full Story

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    To the point and with depth
    Guest
    To the point and with depth

    Great article I

    Wow!
    Guest
    Wow!

    This is very impressive! Much kudos for taking a stand and voicing your opinion.

    Hayom Yom
    Guest
    Hayom Yom

    “My father wrote in a letter: Cherish criticism, for it will place you on the true heights.”

    Yossi A
    Guest
    Yossi A

    Very well said.
    Kodos to Rabbi Gourary for taking a stand.

    THAN YOU RABBI GOURARI
    Guest
    THAN YOU RABBI GOURARI

    IF CROWN HEIGHTS HAD MORE PEOPLE LIKE HIM IT WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE.

    KEEP UP YOUR GOOD WORK AND MAY HASHEM BLESS YOU WITH GEZUNT PARNASA AND NACHAS AND MUCH HATZLACHA IN YOUR HOLY WORK.

    I like this author!
    Guest
    I like this author!

    I agree.

    shame
    Guest
    shame

    shame is good when it is for Hashem. But if it is just something you do in order for your kids to get accepted to school or for shidduchim then it is nothing to do with shame. It’s just how to get ahead in life.

    Kudos
    Guest
    Kudos

    Very well put! As a fellow Angelino, I cringe whenever I go to Crown Heights. It is embarrassing that in the rebbes schuna it’s difficult to differentiate between the Lubavitchers and the yuppies!

    very well said
    Guest
    very well said

    thank you for taking the time to write a true and honest and correct response

    LETS REMEMBER
    Guest
    LETS REMEMBER

    RABBI GOURARI IS A TRUE BAAL CHESED WHO’S INVOLVED IN MANY COMUNITY ISSUES, I DON’T REMEMBER EVER HEARING OF A CHESED PROJECT THAT THIS WALDMAN LADY WAS INVOLVED WITH.

    Wow!
    Guest
    Wow!

    Love this article

    Beautiful
    Guest
    Beautiful

    Thank you for writing this

    Ch Resident
    Guest
    Ch Resident

    👍

    Waldman?
    Guest
    Waldman?

    There is no chaya Sara waldman in the tzach list! Just a pen name written by someone who does not.want to face reality!

    shoot the messenger
    Guest
    shoot the messenger

    unfortunately kabel es haemes is hard to take from everyone, especially this author.

    The orange analogy doesn't work
    Guest
    The orange analogy doesn't work

    The author clearly doesn’t know much about citrus fruit. Ironically with citrus, the peel is the first part to go, and it moves inward. You can easily have a moldy peel orange that is fine on the inside. So, too, those who don’t look “chasidisch” enough to those who are busy judging the externals, will often find a very emesdich person on the inside. Instead of demanding an outside appearance that can mean next to nothing, how about demanding we all stop judging, and looking to people’s insides instead?

    Mrs. Phyllis JB Jonas
    Guest
    Mrs. Phyllis JB Jonas

    Women are quite capable of making their own decisions as to what is proper dress.. I cringe when I see women all covered up on a hot day and men wearing shorts. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander too!

    Disgusting
    Guest
    Disgusting

    So a woman in denim is “rotten through and through”?

    Well said
    Guest
    Well said

    Thank you for speaking up. And thank you to Rabbi Gourarie for taking a stand!! It takes a lot to do what he did, and it is very much appreciated. To others, like the author of the first article, who have other causes they see as top priority- how about taking a stand for what you believe in and do something about it? Don’t use other worthy causes just as an excuse to dismiss a very burning issue that you’d rather ignore…

    Agree 100%!
    Guest
    Agree 100%!

    Beautiful article, beautiful message. Thanks for responding to the op-ed!

    thank you..
    Guest
    thank you..

    Beautiful

    10 lets remember
    Guest
    10 lets remember

    if her chesed is done b’tznius then that is why you didn’t hear about it

    Straight and to the point
    Guest
    Straight and to the point

    kudos rabbi schochet. You said your words clearly and they make sense 100%. It’s nice that you wrote your name and openly applaud rabbi gurary.

    As I expected rotten
    Guest
    As I expected rotten

    Thank you for the wonderful mashal! Shame is a concept that is forbidden (politically incorrect) in this modern era. The absents of it is rotting our country.

    Im frankly very angry
    Guest
    Im frankly very angry

    Why is it that we publicize only imagined negative of our precious daughter’s
    They are the envy of bnos yisroel
    The ahava emuna they have on theirlittle finger does not match bto. Anyone even in a burka
    Cut it out
    All the pros tzadikim etc get a life
    Its very simple
    כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה
    and all men
    לא תתורו אתרי עיניכם
    even צניעותדיקע dressed people

    Meir
    Guest
    Meir

    BS”D I don’t remember any Chesed that # 10 let’s remember was involved in. She stated her opinion. It can be objected to without ridicule and scorn. People who do so such as # 10 certainly are not Baal Cheseds either and for that matter why does she even have to be a Baal Chesed to respond. Comments like # 10’s are sickening

    Very nice!
    Guest
    Very nice!

    Written so well, so true, so clear to the point. You are so right!

    You're missing what is really happening...
    Guest
    You're missing what is really happening...

    With all do respect… The previous letter was not saying that women should be ok with dressing untzniusly. It was saying tznuis can not be accomplished through manipulation and control and to do so is diminishing to the essence of tznuius itself! Tznius is the most beautiful when embraced properly and healthily, but control, coercion and trying to shame someone will never produce a healthy result. There are different kinds of shame. Shame (the kind you are referring to) is one of the most destructive emotions. Youth are going through the most difficult time to live these days. The idea… Read more »

    and you're also missing the point
    Guest
    and you're also missing the point

    Waldman never suggests that tznius should be compromised! Read her letter! What she says is that spotlighting girls’ legs is not the ‘aidelkeit’ and ‘kedusha’ that defines tznius. What she says is that the incessant unrelenting focus on girls skin and nail polish and legs and ‘tight clothing’ completely subverts the true meaning of tznius. What she says is that we need to find a way to get girls to INTEGRATE the concept of tznius. And, most of all, what she says is that this way hasn’t worked! It’s not a new idea that Bnos Menachem came up w ith… Read more »

    Meir
    Guest
    Meir

    BS”D # 10: PS you question (rightfully so) her desire to limit Rabbi G’s desire to correct something while other issues remain in her eyes more important ones at that (dubious but immaterial) while at the same time tell her bc she is not yet a Baal Chesed she has no right to an opinion. A bit hypocritical or incongruous

    I applaud Rabbi Motty Gurary
    Guest
    I applaud Rabbi Motty Gurary

    I think we should appoint him to decide all rules, that we should live by.

    This was a great read because
    Guest
    This was a great read because

    For all those bitter CHers cursing everyone out the whole day, while wearing next to nothing and doing who knows what with gd knows who, listen to me GET OUT OF CH!YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS HERE! JUST CZ YOUR PARENTS LIVE HERE, THAT DOESN’T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO DEFILE AND impurify our community! Move to Monsey l, Florida, California, but not here!

    Halacha is not opinion
    Guest
    Halacha is not opinion

    So crazy that tznius is being turned into opinions. Rabbi gurary wants strict standards of tznius upheld at his school. Nobody needs opinions here. It is his choice to stand up for what’s right. He didn’t make stuff up. Anyone can check it up in the book oz vehadar levusha. If someone doesn’t “agree”-doesn’t want to keep Halacha- go to beis rivka- there you can bring your kid to school practically in a bathing suit and then complain that men shouldn’t be looking anyway.

    Shochet
    Guest
    Shochet

    My absolute biggest pet peeve is people from out of crown heights giving their opinions on this matter

    Tznius
    Guest
    Tznius

    Please can we not have another man discussing tznius- it’s so very wrong

    Terrible
    Guest
    Terrible

    Terrible moldy peel analogy. You can’t compare moldy peels as an indicator of rotten fruit to ones dress in a manner he does this approve of as an indicator of “rotten character.” Human beings are a little different than fruit. No one will argue what mold is but appropriate dress is subjective and changes according to different people. Plus, it is no indicator of human flaws.

    its about time
    Guest
    its about time

    all good
    but here it goes again the men telling and pointing
    high time that the women speak up and have them tell the women
    and how about the men yes the men telling the men yes the men for a change

    shame
    Guest
    shame

    There are people who dress tznius who do shameful things in public. Ask girls who had teachers shame them in front of their class. Ask women who have large families but not enough money who hear people talk about them behind their backs. Ask men who go to shul but don’t get an aliya for months because they don’t have thirty times chai. Just because someone has an outward appearance of refinement does not mean that they act in a refined way publicly. The might stretch forth their necks, wink their eyes, and raise themselves when they walk.

    Mens Side of the Mechitza
    Guest
    Mens Side of the Mechitza

    It’s an old story!! The reason why reuven, the eldest, lost the melucha and kings come from yehuda, is not because he was WRONG, it was because it was NOT appropriate for him to do it. There can be no answer as to why a male rabbi talks, never mind writes or even knows about “Tight fitting womens clothing” or the colors of women’s nails! This is for mothers to teach their girls. The issue is Rabbi G. stuck his head out to the wrong side of the mechitza and wrote very halachcly inappropriate descriptions that a man should not… Read more »

    Student of bnos menachem
    Guest
    Student of bnos menachem

    All this fuss over a few rules. Maybe they are extreme but thats not for the rest of the chabad world to discuss.

    Not chabad's way
    Guest
    Not chabad's way

    Is this our way? If a non drum girl would want to go to gurary’s school should he let her in? No, and yet we have chabad houses and send 12 year old boys to manhattan to do mivtzoin and bring ppl back to yidhishkeit? Gurary’s letter is like punching someone who is in the middle of a fight screaming ahavas yisroel. If one person goes off the way because of this letter would the rebbe be proud of that ? Why not do things the way the rebbe did, with love. Talking about women tzniuse is the easy way… Read more »

    to #33
    Guest
    to #33

    It is 100% against halacha for him to turn away a child who wants to learn torah, because her mom doesn’t keep halacha. Don’t stick up for a man who wants halacha when it works for his brand image.
    It’s against halacha to charge for teaching torah. Its against halacha to turn away a child who cannot pay his fees. It is 100% against halacha for him to turn away a child who wants to learn torah, because her mom doesn’t keep halacha.

    CH mothers are not rotten fruits they all live here in mesirus nefesh
    Guest
    CH mothers are not rotten fruits they all live here in mesirus nefesh

    This topic must be brought to CH rabonim and have open public discussion … yes we are mothers and some might be struggle more but we put our kids to CH schools to be better then us in all …. we live here and pay very high price for all … we all need is respect and ahavas Isroel … it’s too much pressure for the women to be ashamed because of her look in public , pls find soft , calm , nice and beautiful way to make all women shine their beauty and our community will only be… Read more »

    Attention 28-29
    Guest
    Attention 28-29

    You write: “Shame (the kind you are referring to) is one of the most destructive emotions”. But R’ Yochanan told his students: הלואי שיהא מורא שמים עליכם כמורא בשר ודם. “It would be a good thing if your fear of heaven would be like the fear you have of a human [seeing you doing something wrong]”. When you are doing what is practically correct it can have a huge effect on the way you think and feel. The Rebbe always stressed doing what is right first, and only afterwards trying to internalise it. The Rebbe’s way is the way of… Read more »

    To #41
    Guest
    To #41

    Why should someone that’s not frum want to come to a crown heights school if SO MANY OF OUR GIRLS LOOK LIKE THEM? When I walked down the street today the amount of knees I say today were HORRIFIC! Ribono shel olam! Get ur act together and keep Halacha! What’s with all of ur excuses of let’s work on other stuff or it shouldn’t be coming from a man? So maybe it shouldn’t have. But it did. And it’s true. Open ur eyes and see it.

    Denim
    Guest
    Denim

    Denim should be the biggest sin of 2017.
    Seriously!

    At the end of the day....
    Guest
    At the end of the day....

    Bnos menachem is right. Leggings are so often a stumbling block, as it’s very easy to have gaps between the socks and the leggings…that’s if the person is wearing socks at all.
    But that’s a whole other story. Point is, bnos menachem has taken the initiative to do something about a crisis that so many ppl just stand and sigh about. And for that, I applaud bnos menachem and rabbi gurary.
    A br graduate

    Levi
    Guest
    Levi

    #18 o please. He did not say he agrees with all the rules rabbi g said. He is saying someone that walks around not tzniyus is rotton.

    #25 you probly wrote a nice comment, and want us to read it. Please spell a bit better

    #42 wow, every jewish school in the world goes against halacha…a shool cant have ANY standerds? What are u saying?

    This is not it!
    Guest
    This is not it!

    Dear Rabbi Gurary and all his supporters, If you really want to be successful and build a real future for this community you need to dream big and I mean really big instead of continuing to oppress people with all these rules and regulations you need to start empowering your people and the only way to do that is by creating a campaign to completely and totally use all of the amazing talents of the people in this community Showcase the most beautiful clothing in a fantastic presentation for the entire community to come and see designed by our very… Read more »

    Did his letter offend me because he is wrong, or did his letter offend me because he is right?
    Guest
    Did his letter offend me because he is wrong, or did his letter offend me because he is right?

    I like this line 🙂

    Chabad feminist
    Guest
    Chabad feminist

    Rabbi Gourary is simply cloaking his blatant misogyny under the guise of Halacha. As the author of the previous article pointed out, Rabbi Gourary’s true motive here is his desire for women to be subservient to him. I’m sorry Rabbi Gourary, but you, as a privileged male, do not get to dictate what women do with their bodies. Women are not your chattel, and they will dress as they please. If you don’t like it, Williamsburg would be a more suitable place for you.

    My 2 cents
    Guest
    My 2 cents

    Firstly, Rabbi Schochet’s article is respectful, on point, & explains the issue in easy language, so everyone can get it. If you disagree with him, that’s you’re prerogative. What isn’t is the harshness of many of the responses to an article written respectfully and without anger. I noticed one common thread in the 327 comments on “Mrs. Waldman’s” letter: almost everyone was furious. The tone of the vast majority of the comments, not to mention the actual language used, detracts from your message. As Rabbi Schochet says, first impressions count. It’s hard to get the message across if it is… Read more »

    Keep it simple.
    Guest
    Keep it simple.

    To all those who are causing issues based their hurt feelings. The truth hurts. And your only hurt because you know he is write. If this was the only community school, then they would have to accept all those who are part of the community weather or not they keep to the rules. The rebbes view on that is we only send a chilled away is if they are negatively influencing others. Bieng that there are many other Lubavitch girls school, he has every rite to make rules. If you don’t like them send your chiled somwere else. I applaud… Read more »

    17-
    Guest
    17-

    the families where men wear shorts trust me the women arent fully covered either. my dad and brothers wear the same stuff in the summer as a whole year round except they have short sleeves but thats the only difference. no shorts, yes socks….

    i checked tzachlist-no chaya sara waldman there
    Guest
    i checked tzachlist-no chaya sara waldman there

    do you live in crown heights?

    Two cents
    Guest
    Two cents

    My two cents: It’s his school. He has the right to set its standards (especially since there are other schools in CH) The orange metaphor contradicts Avot 4:20: “Said Rabbi Meir: Look not at the vessel, but at what it contains”. It is also true that non-kosher food in a kosher pot is still not kosher. Anyone (especially Male Rabbonim) may comment on any Torah issue. Tzniut is not solely within the purview of women (although the letter probably would have been more PC if it was signed by the school administration). Weighing the severity of Mitzvot contradicts Avot 2:1… Read more »

    To number 16
    Guest
    To number 16

    1St of all,you’re getting caught in details which don’t make a difference in what he’s trying to say, yes it might be true about what you said how an orange works physically, but that clearly wasn’t the point of what he was trying to say(interestingly recently exactly what he said occurred to me, how I took an orange which looked fresh and juicy on the outside but rotten on the inside) 2ND yes it’s true that we have to work on pnimiyus, but that doesn’t mean that till we are prefect in our pnimiyus we should be walking naked in… Read more »

    Gut in himmel!
    Guest
    Gut in himmel!

    To all the geniuses asking why it’s Rabbi G’s place to comment: he runs a girls school!!! It is kind of his job. If you don’t like his style, don’t send your kids to his school.

    Quite frankly, I am proud that all my sisters have gone to Bais Yaakov. With them, items like tznius, derech eterz and plain ole good midos are the norm. Sad that we need to go out of lubavitch to get that…

    A Boro Parker
    Guest
    A Boro Parker

    I recall being very close to Lubavitch years ago when I was 18-20 years old. What held me back from making the ultimate dive & become a tomim was that the preaching didn’t match the products produced primarily as far as Tznius goes. I was given all types of explanations that people fall through & some are baalei teshuva etc etc. For me the bottom line was whether it has become a שיטה by some in Lubavitch or not. To me that is the difference between orthodox & reform. Orthodox will also talk loshon hora etc but it hasn’t become… Read more »

    Only with love.
    Guest
    Only with love.

    If you have such high standards for the girls. Why not allow any boy in yeshiva who trims his beard. I believe it’s a double standard. The problem we have today we don’t give each boy or girl the ability to find the sweet taste of Yiddishkiet. We just make more rules and restrictions. By the time they finish with seminary or yeshiva they throw it all away. We need to chance the method of how we deliver the message. We have the rebbe who accepted everyone no matter what level he or she was holding. We must instill the… Read more »

    Should we start with פנימיות or חיצוניות when it comes to Tznius?
    Guest
    Should we start with פנימיות or חיצוניות when it comes to Tznius?

    The known ספר החינוך states may times (he is from the reshonim & there is no known opposing opinion) “אדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו” which means your outward behavior will affect your פנימיות and shouldn’t wait for your פנימיות to be in order first. So “אחרי הפעולות נמשכים הלבבות” is the way to go. Keep in mind that Judaisim isn’t an open religion with the locals having their input but rather is to be kept the way it was passed down. For the others there is already Reform. Why reinvent the wheel?

    Thank you rabbi gurary!
    Guest
    Thank you rabbi gurary!

    Since my daughters have gone to you’re scool I have been way more careful how I dress then ever before ty.

    sooo wrong
    Guest
    sooo wrong

    right! so lets paint the peel with a very strong fluorescent orange, and all our problems are fixed!
    the typical chitzoinius that is destroying our community and our children !

    to #7
    Guest
    to #7

    Perhaps: “m’toch shelo leshma, ba leshma”.

    Outcome
    Guest
    Outcome

    B”H
    For those who wrote in the previous article that at the end of the day, there is no difference from a BM girl to BR, as a seminary head, I see a tremendous difference. In midos, aidelkeit, as well as tznius. Less attitude, less chutzpa, less ego. Just saying, from a few years of interviews and actually teaching and dealing with the girls.

    How can you expect...
    Guest
    How can you expect...

    Bnos Menachem to teach the girls Tzniyus, if the mothers arent dressing Tzniyus? Its erasing all lessons the school is trying to teach the kids, if the moms dress how they want. Maybe the parents who chose bnos menachem for their girls can work WITH the school to provide the chinuch they sent their daughter there for, instead of destroying the tznius message that bnos menachem is trying to impart, by dressing in the opposite manner of what the school which THEY chose, is trying to impart? When you choose a specific school for your daughter, how about working WITH… Read more »

    To #39:
    Guest
    To #39:

    Rabbi Gourary has the tzniyus issue thrown in his face, so why blame him? What Mechitza? These mothers are obviously walking in to his school daily to bring their children to school, should he walk around his school wearing blinders, or carry a mechitzah with him wherever he goes? This Rabbi is obviously focused on his goal/message, rising above what people think, rising above all the criticism that he knew would come from such a letter, his position isn’t popular, but he is focusing on correct Halachic standards. There’s a saying I’ve heard: “Impress G-d, not man”. What would impress… Read more »

    To # 35
    Guest
    To # 35

    Please look into the Rebbe’s sichos.
    Should the Rebbe not speak about how lax tzinius has become????

    Evidently, this issue touched a raw nerve in CH. There are over 500 comments all around on this issue.
    To Rabbi Gourary
    חזק ואמץ. Keep up the good work.

    Rav should determine halacha, what about baalei tshuva children
    Guest
    Rav should determine halacha, what about baalei tshuva children

    Rabbi gurari is out of line. There is no halacha against denin skirts. Never heard about color of nailpolish or about leggings. This halacha should be decided by rabbanim of bais din rabbi schwei or rabbi braun. Or by rabbi osdaba. Since when is rabbi guari a posek for the community. Much better to just have children wear uniforms as in bet rivka. Obviously rabbi gurari wont take children who are baalei tshuva as their parents wont sign to his standard

    Baalei tshuva excluded from this school?
    Guest
    Baalei tshuva excluded from this school?

    I became a baalat tshuva at age 12. My parents would not have signed that letter. I would have been denied entry to this school. Does this sound right that children be punished for parents sins??????

    Rabbi motti Gurary
    Guest
    Rabbi motti Gurary

    A Baal chessed par excellence, together with his wife leah. Opened this school and runs it with mesiras nefesh,expense,aggravation and everything it takes to run a Moised. He is allowed,indeed he should be obligated to,set standards for acceptance. Yasher koyach tô him!! Tznius has sadly become a big bone of contention in our worldwide Lubavitcher community. It’s sad a real shame on all of us.there is too much emotion to have a rational discussion about it,nor is this the forum,but it does need to be addressed. These 2 articles are about the right or wrong of an individual to set… Read more »

    Dear chabad girls,
    Guest
    Dear chabad girls,

    Its a tremendous chilul H” and of course chilul chabad and the rebbe!!!!

    to #63 and #69 and #70
    Guest
    to #63 and #69 and #70

    to #63 you are mistaken. The Rebbe often (maybe always?) encouraged people to ‘do the right thing’ in their actions, regardless of their inner feelings or understanding, and the understanding and appreciation will follow. it is not ‘chitzoniyus’ but rather the Rebbe’s shita. You become refined by your actions and choices. to #69 Rabbi Gourarie is not defining halacha, he is setting a standard for his school. If he feels bright nailpolish or leggings are not reflective of the type of aidelkeit he is trying to nurture in his students, then why does that bother you?? do you go to… Read more »

    BH חבד
    Guest
    BH חבד

    I have been thinking about CH anash for years and chabad bala battim and communities . Chabad needs a plan for its bala battim if anash to raise us all higher . “tzu gebudin oben ” . 1) adopt a bala bos : Shluchim working with merkos should have bala batim come to them for yom tov and help with shlichus etc 2) chabad on the job : organize all bala battim working in the city etc to do mivtziom where they work , shuirim , Mincha minyan etc . help them do it through tzach . 3) mentors in… Read more »

    Ms. Lilly
    Guest
    Ms. Lilly

    You lost me at “Modern Orthodox”. Why the condescending quotes?? Why do you need to put other Jews down – to feel superior in your devotion to Ha-shem? Sigh. You correctly note that “Improving oneself internally is difficult. It requires serious honesty and introspection. Changing our outward appearance is easier. It is a simple step we can take in recapturing our natural refinement, which in turn will be a step in the direction of improving our inner core.” If you think dressing the part will help you be more refined in your inner core and will help you find a… Read more »

    Yasher koach
    Guest
    Yasher koach

    Thank you Rabbi Gurary for standing up for kovoid shem Lubavitch. The Rebbe has emphasized the great importance of tznius. People who argue with that should stop beating around the bush: are you Lubavitcher chassidim or some hippies on a feel good spiritual quest. Don’t melt like snowflakes when someone makes you uncomfortable with truth.
    Also there is no Chaya Waldman in CH.

    Question for you
    Guest
    Question for you

    To all those who say chabad is ahavas yisroel and loving and accepting of everyone…how do we react to those that dress not tzniyus? U cant say anything. U cant write anything u cant do anything. We just smile and say we accept u? I dont know the answer. Walking down kingston these days is disgusting. I bh live outa ch, but every time i come, I feel sick looking at the way some woman and girls dress(or forget to get dressed) and yes ITS IN YOUR FACE! I cant walk around ch with my glasses. Girls and woman can… Read more »

    Crown heights is diverse
    Guest
    Crown heights is diverse

    Lubavitch is about love! Instead of being embarrassed and comparing us to other communities consider us being more real. Instead of doing shlichus outside of crown heights keep it going in crown heights as wel
    lnspire those children whose parents are not tsnius or not religious in other halochos instead of turning them away! Let everyone be! Punishing the kids for their parents or judging the parent is not the way, they are doing their very best!!!

    Thank you ! Well put!
    Guest
    Thank you ! Well put!

    I’m not for being over the top. But these days it seems many people forgot what wearing clothes means. Or the school that is proud of their ” rule is to have no rules ” we all know how their parents and students dress ( little is left to the imagination)

    Outside-In Refinement
    Guest
    Outside-In Refinement

    I went to a non-Jewish “Ivy League” type high school with a dress code (boys in jackets and tie, girls in skirts). We had one day each year called “dress-down day” where you could wear jeans, etc. One thing is for certain: Behavior dramatically changed on dress-down day. I learned more about the power of dress from this than anything else. We all knew it – on dress down day, we “dressed down”… and everything else started slipping too.

    Outward appearances are just that, appearances
    Guest
    Outward appearances are just that, appearances

    I work at a “prestigious” Jewish organization and outwardly the people there look “yeshivish” but they lie at almost every opportunity to prop up their positions financially and their stature while keeping down hard working individuals (non-rabbis) This, unfortunately, is exactly what zniut is all about. Looking the part regardless of how you actually act. Have you ever seen a yid talk to their goyta! It is more than embarrassing, it’s cringe worthy most of the time. I have interacted with the nicest people whose elbows were uncovered. And I’ve dealt with the nastiest people with long beards or expensive… Read more »

    # 51
    Guest
    # 51

    Whilst you are most certainly a feminist, please don’t call yourself Chabad, and as you’re suggesting that some of us should move to williamsburg perhaps you should move on and find a modern orthodox community where you would feel more comfortable

    everyone is getting carried away for the wrong reasons
    Guest
    everyone is getting carried away for the wrong reasons

    Gurary’s letter in concept is fine, and he’s not the only one! I know a mother who’s son goes to Lubaitcher Yeshiva and lives across the road, she would often pick up her son wearing a tichel, she was told off, and now must put on a sheitel to walk less than fifty feet, and she acknowledges that the school was right! no outcry there! the issue with guaray’s letter is that he demands too much, way above any chabad standard! sheitels not below the shoulders? never heard of in Chabad, always accepted, the Rebbe told woman that they need… Read more »

    Its About Time
    Guest
    Its About Time

    ;My husband and I moved to Crown Heights over fourty years ago. B”H we have raised a beautiful, Chassidishe family in Kan Tziva Hashem es Habrocho. However, there were many challenges with regard to tznius. Walking in the streets of CH, going into a Drs. office, shopping in the grocery etc. all were problematic, because of the lack of tznius in our community. , When it came to shidduchim for our sons, we really felt that our son’s shidduchim were a true gift from the aibishter, in that we were able to find girls who dressed,spoke and behaved in a… Read more »

    to number 77
    Guest
    to number 77

    Why are you looking at women in the first place?
    you should be looking at your wife and even then look at her inner beauty and not be looking at her or others as objectifying lustfuly.

    Rabbis and educators can and should have a say in halacha
    Guest
    Rabbis and educators can and should have a say in halacha

    Putting the focus of the parents tznius makes so much sense. Parents are the number one role models. Positive peer pressure among adults is OK too. Of course there are other problems and sources but this is still a huge step. Rabbis and men are allowed to have a say in Halacha and in educating. And I am a women speaking. This letter makes sense, at least being tznius on the outside is a huge step. I’m sure the school is doing their best to try to get to the girls inside as well!

    To the Author
    Guest
    To the Author

    You need to get more info before coming to conclusion – Also since when a man should be the one to tell a women if ther are dress tznius or to look at women to tell them if they are dress appropriate or not, why don’t they create a vaad of ladies to decide what appropriate whats not ?? Vdal

    #51
    Guest
    #51

    Chabad Feminist?!?!?!? You have no idea what Chabad is
    Period
    Feminist you surely are ,,,, you probably got your cue from your hero Hillary ,,,, blame YOUR failure on misogyny,,,, Rabbi Gourary is nothing but an איש חסד ,,,, time for another ” feminist march”,,,,, your most welcome there !!!

    An outsider looking in
    Guest
    An outsider looking in

    As someone who is in CH all the time for simchos, I have to question the representation of the adults dressing in what the overall Chabad community perceives to be ‘tznius’. “How can you tell if that woman walking toward you is Chabad or not Jewish? If her dress is skin-tight, she’s Chabad.” I see this almost every day. I also see and hear the adults, and even the children swearing. The way we talk is how others (read: the rest of the world) hear us. How can we claim to be of purity when, while we watch what goes… Read more »

    Old BT
    Guest
    Old BT

    I began teaching in terms 70’s when it was difficult to find tznius clothing. I made an apron to wear over my short skirts until I had enough money to change my wardrobe. Now I have many daughters, granddaughters and greatgranddaughters BH who are all tznius. Children see thru hypocrisy. BCM has stressed tznius from its opening. Always done with love and respect. Now other schools following their example.

    To #49
    Guest
    To #49

    You are GREAT.
    I admire your broad view.
    KOL HAKAVOD

    to #55
    Guest
    to #55

    Have you tried hiring a private detective? Yes, I live in CH. No, my name is not in the Tzach directory. And why does this matter?

    The Rebbe on the importance of tznius
    Guest
    The Rebbe on the importance of tznius

    *The Wall that Protects Klal Yisroel* Rabbi Shneur Zalman Gafni relates: Before traveling to the Rebbe for Tishrei 5730 (1969), my wife asked me to discuss with the Rebbe a tznius gathering which had taken place in Bnei Brak. The gathering was headed by the Rov, HaRav Yaakov Landau, and my wife was one of the organizers. I had many things to discuss with the Rebbe, but I added a few words about it at the end of my note. I was surprised when the Rebbe replied in short to all the other issues, and began speaking about this subject… Read more »

    To 28 and 29
    Guest
    To 28 and 29

    I’m having a hard time understanding why a waver given by a school small school in ch is sparking such a big discussion, Why is it not obvious that a school trying to maintain a high standard would only except children who’s parents behavior matches that which the school expects of it’s students, why are we turning this into a discussion about how we should be addressing tznius in ch, get over it everybody!! No one made this a community issue, it’s just for the school to weed out girls who don’t fit the school standard so that it doesn’t… Read more »

    Its all a scam
    Guest
    Its all a scam

    period.

    To #32
    Guest
    To #32

    I moved from CH to Monsey. One of the reasons was because Monsey does have better tznious. I can’t tell you how to fix your problem but imho, one of the reasons Lubavitch in Monsey does not struggle as much with this issue is because noone is obsessing over it. There’s no man at the girls schools with rulers checking skirt lengths, there’s no Mrs. T***** harassing students or parents over Tznious. Rather Tznious is taught sensitively and in the scope of all other mitzvahs that are adhered to. The girls (and their mothers) really internalize the mitzvah just as… Read more »

    poin
    Guest
    poin

    yes, we accept everyone. however, you FFB should and do know better. so you are stam rebelling.

    On the right track but
    Guest
    On the right track but

    Rabbi Gurary is on the right track to try to raise standards of his school. Had he not written rules that are personal stringicies and not within the framework of halacha, they would likely be more accepted. It would probably be a good idea that such a list of rules be either signed off by a Rav, or at least be brought with sources. I’m sure that would get less resistance

    lubavitch
    Guest
    lubavitch

    If you are Lubavitcher (man or woman) then by definition you are chassidish as Lubavitch is a branch of chassidus. Now there is a whole lot that goes into leading a chasidish lifestyle both in terms of internal and external values. But we are now focusing on the externals in this debate. He is simply requiring a more chassidish “look” in his school or more tznius than the general level of CH. Is that really so bad, or such a big deal? If you send to Bnos Menachem I assume you consider yourself Lubavitch and therefore a Lubavitcher chosid. We… Read more »

    It's time to try something new
    Guest
    It's time to try something new

    When I was first becoming religious the rules were hard for me and I always pushed the envelope. My first visit to ch as an 18 year old girl was very traumatic. I bought a wardrobe that at the time I perceived as tznius, which I was very proud of and so was my oot mashpia. My first walk on Kingston was a walk of shame. Random ladies screaming at me, even grabbing me to tell me how terrible I was for my lack of tznius. This was the 90s and I couldn’t understand why the community of the rebbe… Read more »

    הרה"ח מרדכי גורארי שליט"א
    Guest
    הרה"ח מרדכי גורארי שליט"א

    עלה והצלח בעבודתך הקדושה בחיזוק הצניעות של אנ”ש ביחד עם שאר פעולותיך לטובת אנ”ש שיחיו, ותמשיך להיות דוגמה חיה לחסיד מקושר נגיד ועסקן בדרכם של משפחת גורארי לדורותיהם שגרמו נחת רוח רב לרבותינו נשיאנו כידו בתקוה שממנו ילמדו וכן יעשו שאר נגידי ועסקני אנ”ש

    Modern orthodox
    Guest
    Modern orthodox

    It’s funny I purposely send my children to an modern orthodox school, where everyone dresses modestly. Yes elbows and hair maybe showing but not one parent or teacher ever shows up provocatively. As opposed to the local Lubavitch school where all the right parts are covered but teachers look totally immodest and parents dress in even less. My MO friends often point this out and ask how come they are considered not “tznius.” They are always judged and assumed as lacking in yiddiskeit,even by local shluchim who are also not up to standards. I have no answer to them. I… Read more »

    Larry
    Guest
    Larry

    My daughter did not go to any schools in Crown Heights And went to a school that had a modest dress code and thank God she appreciates dressing that way all the time because it was a way of life over there. Add a Nother daughter who goes to a school in Crown Heights Asked me a few times how is it that they speak at school about dressing modestly and when there’s no school and I’m walking down the Avenue I see the same TEACHERS who are telling me about dressing modestly are walking around not in a modest… Read more »

    CLASSES
    Guest
    CLASSES

    WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO ALLEVIATE THIS PROBLEM IS TO MAKE CLASSES FOR PARENTS IN THE SCHOOL.
    TEACH THE MOTHERS THE BEAUTY OF DRESSING CLASSY AND PROPER.
    THE REBBE SAID: “YOU CANNOT TELL SOMEONE WHAT TO DO BUT YOU CAN TEACH THEM”

    Topsy Turvy
    Guest
    Topsy Turvy

    Rarely do we see a topic that creates this much controversy
    And commotion
    Please bare in mind
    It is clear
    Some people are more challenged than others
    That is it

    To 96
    Guest
    To 96

    Are you talking about the chabad community in monsey or the non chabad community ?

    Miriam Rivka
    Guest
    Miriam Rivka

    The issue isn’t the style of the Rav’s letter, but the fact that he wrote it at all. To discuss your students is one thing- to take it upon yourself to decide that it is within your jurisdiction to determine the dress, sheitle and nail polish of someone’s mother is ludicrous IF it’s beyond what is held by the standards of the Rebbe. Forgive me- I’m going to listen to the Rebbe instead. Beyond that I’m shocked to see someone promoting the concept of shame as a good one in this context. Shame is only good as an internal feeling-… Read more »

    To #85
    Guest
    To #85

    Of course i look at my wife and i love her inner and outer beuty.
    I am saying that when you walk in the streets of ch there are untzniyus people ALL over. Even if u dont want to see it, it is in your face. This is chabad? This is lubavitch?
    What type of community is this when everyone does whatever the heck they want? Walk around naked the whole day in your house but not In the street please!

    BM saga
    Guest
    BM saga

    all the “nay-sayers” overlooked the fact that this is a private school… no one id forcing anyone to go there….
    they are rediculing whatever they don’t agree with in a public forum
    that is loshen hara whichever way you want to look at it.
    And they keep bashing the fact thst “a man” wrote this
    Well so did men write Shulchn Aruch…siches etc all pertaining to “halacha”
    taking time to do some basic homework before shooting one’s mouth off on a matter that doesn’t concern them….
    “Chaya Sara Waldman” is can be credited wiith starting this vitriolic stouch of lashen hara…..
    .

    Statistics
    Guest
    Statistics

    Are there any studies on Wich community’s are more successful in maintaining tznius standard’s and keeping children on the derech? That would be the only way to know Witch method works and Witch doesnt.

    From my contact with my relatives in boro park and it seems that that are much more successful with tznius and chinuch, maybe we can learn something from them.

    107
    Guest
    107

    @ POST 51 i TOTALLY AGREE RE MISOGYNY. Men controlling women, i wrote scathing email to my sweet chabad rabbi re this issue, The list of sinful dress is a mixed bag, Wouldst that this letter were never written to threaten mothers paying excessive money in order to educate their daughters al pi chabad, The WIG LENGTH, mindblowing, women’s hair is too sexual or mystical or whatever school you follow, so she needs a wig, And geferlich, not a heathen wig, through out thousands of dollars, now, the length, well, why, is it too attractive??? men won’t be able to… Read more »

    Orange is the new Black
    Guest
    Orange is the new Black

    I don’t believe the author of the article is saying that we should judge someone else that has a moldy peel. Who are we to judge? We don’t know their background and what their story is. But it is more of an interpersonal reflection- to look at yourself and make improvements.

    As far as Rabbi Gurary goes, he is not saying people that don’t dress this way are bad. He is saying that these are the standards we would like to see in our school body, which included students and parents.

    I didn't get any less rotten.
    Guest
    I didn't get any less rotten.

    I don’t wear denim for a couple of years. I used to. But I don’t make any conversation with any man who is not my husband, father or brother. I’m very makpid on Yichud, I don’t go with a male driver, no technician coming to my house when my husband is not home, not even with the main door opened. They could only come when my husband is home. That’s the way I have always been. Unfortunately, I have seen many women who dress very tznius, not up to date, very unappealing – make long conversations with men, go with… Read more »

    ask yourself
    Guest
    ask yourself

    Would you stand before the Rebbe dressed/wearing any of the things listed on Rabbi Gurary’s list? Would you seriously walk before the Rebbe in a sheitel down your back and tight clothes? If the answer is “no” then there you have your answer. Rabbi Gurary is 100% correct

    To #49
    Guest
    To #49

    Wow! Everyone should read what number 49 says. Indeed a revolutionary idea!

     #49
    Guest
    #49

    A very nice idea. Yashar koach.

    Number fourty nine
    Guest
    Number fourty nine

    I completely agree with you. Why push it on people, especially nowadays? If you push too hard Rabbi, your plan will probably backfire

    Men: stay out of this!!
    Guest
    Men: stay out of this!!

    Notice how all the responses in favor of the bnos menachem tznius rules are men. Sruli Shochet, you are a MAN. You do not get a say in this!! And to Rabbi Gurary: what are you thinking?! Why are people agreeing with him?! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DENIM!!! Will someone please explain to me what is not tznius about denim?! And don’t start saying it is because it’s a “non Jewish trend”, we all know that is a cop out! And don’t even get me started on the shaitel rule! Men need to stay out of this!! I think… Read more »

    @79
    Guest
    @79

    True! We see a huge difference in the kids in the crown heights schools that put an emphasis on tznius an dthsje that do not. It’s not only the tznius that’s affected. There is a complete lack of Kabolos ol and disinterest in yiddishkeit. Right now their students threw out the idea of tznius unfortunately I feel in a short time they will throw out a whole lots more.

    Men can't have an opinion?
    Guest
    Men can't have an opinion?

    Last I checked, a married couple or a family is a joint venture. Women comment to their husbands all the time about what they wear, how they dress and even shop for clothing for them. Yet, somehow, when a man wants to comment on how women should dress, something that is not just a fashion comment, but rather impactfull on the spiritual well being of the family – the man is told to stay out of it. I hate to break it to you ladies: you may not like what the man has to say, but we are still entitled… Read more »

    to number 70
    Guest
    to number 70

    you wouldnt have been denied education as there is beis rivka that is also a chabad school 🙂

    bm isnt the only school in crown heights.
    theres ateres chaya, beis rivka, beis chaya mushka and bnos menachem,

    i think each parent can choose whats best for their family!

    hopeing we can all live in achdus! achdus is the main thing!

    Opinion
    Guest
    Opinion

    @ 120

    An opinion or forced. Big difference!!

    So going forward...
    Guest
    So going forward...

    I think that the Tznius rules are amazing. I’m just concerned that we are not trying to be a different type of Chassidim. We are Chabad after all, and anyone who grew up in the Bais Rivkah system would not necessarily feel that we have the need for short wigs etc.The rest is not needed to be explained.

    The Rebbe Maharash ......
    Guest
    The Rebbe Maharash ......

    *To Deserve the Rebbe’s Bracha* The Rebbe Maharash was not present at the wedding of his son, the Rebbe Rashab, which took place in Ovrutch, the hometown of the kalla, Rebbetzin Shterna Sara. After the wedding, when the new couple traveled to Lubavitch, the chosson suggested to his kalla that she ask her father-in-law to give her the brachos she deserved, for had he been at the wedding, he would of course have bensched them under the chuppa. In response to her request, the Rebbe Maharash replied, “Of course – on condition that you cut off that feather.” She was… Read more »

    The Rebbe Maharash ......
    Guest
    The Rebbe Maharash ......

    *To Deserve the Rebbe’s Bracha* The Rebbe Maharash was not present at the wedding of his son, the Rebbe Rashab, which took place in Ovrutch, the hometown of the kalla, Rebbetzin Shterna Sara. After the wedding, when the new couple traveled to Lubavitch, the chosson suggested to his kalla that she ask her father-in-law to give her the brachos she deserved, for had he been at the wedding, he would of course have bensched them under the chuppa. In response to her request, the Rebbe Maharash replied, “Of course – on condition that you cut off that feather.” She was… Read more »

    I just can't believe this!!
    Guest
    I just can't believe this!!

    I don’t understand why there is so much confusion and misunderstanding and is many people shaming and blaming each other out. Stop that! Ok, I feel that it is not right to give a list on how to be צניעות. It doesn’t work these days. You have to do it with love- not by force. The way is by dealing and trying to help this generation and make it better. By forcing you will not get anywhere. Forcing is not the way. Do you know how many people are off the derech because of what Bnos Menachem did to them??… Read more »

    Amerika iz nisht andresh
    Guest
    Amerika iz nisht andresh

    Thank you number 124 for the מעשה from our Holy Rebbeim,
    Number118,,,,, Hillary Clinton has plenty of openings for staff you are sure to get a position after all ,,,,,your resume reads , nay screams MISOGNY,,, that’s your sorry excuse ,,,, since your נשמה anyhow was by מתן תורה,,, you probably screamed MISOGYNY,, that the תורה was given by משה רבינו,,,,

    Very sad
    Guest
    Very sad

    As a parent in bnos menachem I am very sad at the direction the school is taking. I have a strong value for tznius but this manipulation and control doesn’t feel like Torah to me. Think of a parent who signed up their children 10 or 12 years ago due to the warm and chassidish reputation the school had. They were never informed of these extreme standards and their children go on to form not e friendships and relationships with teachers, principals… overall you are happy your children are growing bederech Hashem – they are happy and well adjusted. Suddenly… Read more »

    To #49 and #104
    Guest
    To #49 and #104

    Love the attitude! Keep it up and I hope you’re ideas bear fruit! I would totally attend a class and support new Tznius fashion events.

    I have a great idea!!!!
    Guest
    I have a great idea!!!!

    why don’t we just all wear black and black then we could be as tznius as possible and whoever doesn’t follow to these rules then are put in cherem. I think it’s a great solution it worked for levi tahor.

    Premise of this article is flawed
    Guest
    Premise of this article is flawed

    The writer of this article forgets that Tznuit is a community mitzvah and people are entitled to hold by the standards of their communities. Those “Modern Orthodox” (translate Torah Jews) were not acting brazen at all. They were holding by the way that their community defines modesty. A reminder, if you will, that many Separdim wear sandals. It’s the length of the skirt, not the socks that determine what is Tznuit. So the author’s statement about the Chabad girls and how they still have shame because they are not immodest in public, while the Modern Orthodox are brazen and shameless… Read more »

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