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Monday, 14 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 17, 2019

    Working Bochur: Is That a Crime?

    From the COLlive inbox: A bochur who has a job laments how shadchanim stigmatize him and his working friends. Full Story

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    “Like Driving Home From 770”

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    Working girl
    Guest
    Working girl

    This made me smile and laugh, and gave me some hope. Thanks:)

    To the author
    Guest
    To the author

    Wish I wasn’t so tznius or I would ask for your number on col:)
    Many girls are also being told there are no boys that are working but still good frum boys
    Time to set things straight! Thanks for posting! Good luck!

    Take your head out of the gutter
    Guest
    Take your head out of the gutter

    Get over the tznious issue and your life will apparently be much more simple. Same goes for all young men and older woman who scream about it in the streets.

    yes there is something wrong
    Guest
    yes there is something wrong

    You say you checked off all the boxes except you didnt. The Rebbe strongly wanted bochurim to learn until they were married. And the Rebbe didn’t come up with this concept. It comes from Gemara. I wish you all the best, yet you must understand that by you being a working single you are putting yourself on a lower level. As a single girl I at this point would not consider a boy that works. And I am not doubting your middos or ability to be a great husband or father. But it does say something about ones level.

     Couldn't be better written...
    Guest
    Couldn't be better written...

    And remember many of us want shlichus, but cant find a place because we’re not connected… What a pity!

    Hard to relate
    Guest
    Hard to relate

    It’s hard for me to relate to this article cause I’m way out of the system so I’m wondering if this is really a thing or it’s just perspective based on your experience. If this is a true phenomenon my guess is that it’s not whether working is good or bad but it’s about being not the cookie cutter. Although there are many great shadchonim as in all industries there are some who like the quick and easy jobs. I’m sure it’s easier for a shadchon to set up boys and girls straight out of the system then to do… Read more »

    Could be a maaleh
    Guest
    Could be a maaleh

    I am looking for a shidduch for my daughter, and we davka are looking for someone who is working because that is what she wants. So could be a maaleh.

    A Little Perplexed
    Guest
    A Little Perplexed

    I am unclear regarding the message of this article. Is the author protesting the (perceived) stigma attached to working bochrim? Is it a referendum on whether the current modus operandi for match making is effective? Or is the article intended to highlight the slipping tznius standards of Chabad girls? Would someone plz clarify…

    Impressed
    Guest
    Impressed

    I’m very impressed with the boy who wrote this article. It’s well written. Good job. So I went through the same thing many years ago. The shadchanim were certain that since I worked full-time and went to Touro College I am looking for a modern girl. I definitely wanted someone who can appreciate what I was doing but every single girl that I was set up with was extremely lacking in frumkeit and tznius. It actually started having a negative effect on me as I started thinking that maybe I also need to cut back on yiddishkeit and chill out… Read more »

    To #4
    Guest
    To #4

    Not everyone is cut out to sit and learn. If I bachur knows this and is doing something constructive like earning a living,that is a big mailah. I’m a married woman and I can tell you absolutely that I never would have been able to sit and learn 14 hours a day.

    Stay strong
    Guest
    Stay strong

    Work is responsability. You don’t need to be sitting all day in 770 to show that you are frum., specially if you are 24 and up.

    Agree with #7
    Guest
    Agree with #7

    I’m in the same situation.

    frum and wordly girl
    Guest
    frum and wordly girl

    I really liked your article. And im glad you shared your thoughts.
    I am a both a frum and wordly girl, with strong values, my tznius is good and i wouldnt mind at all a working guy. I dont see it as a crime. I would totally date a guy as described in this article.
    There ARE girls who have this balance you are looking for. Good luck!

    Tznius
    Guest
    Tznius

    Details? Whats is tznius to you?

    To # 8
    Guest
    To # 8

    It is all three…

    To the author: What do u consider tznius?
    Guest
    To the author: What do u consider tznius?

    Well written and thanks for giving us girls, hope. I am one of those who wants someone w chassiddish values etc. I would consider myself pretty tznius, but am just curious as to what your take is on tznius? Or rather, what do you consider ‘not tznius’. (I personally wear skirts that cover my knees, and tights, but when I sit my knees are not always covers completely. Or my collar bone is not alway covered. That’s not to say that I wear low necks or short skirts. But to the letter of the law, I would say that sometimes… Read more »

    to the author
    Guest
    to the author

    1. Rabbi jj hecht obm said: a shadchins job is he tells you a lot of lies and takes your money.2. If your a chassidish looking boy, like a 770 bochur look just working, there would be no reason for a girl who wants a working boy – to reject you. But you have a beard YET colored shirts and other things then a not such tznuis girl fits that description.

    Great!
    Guest
    Great!

    I’m looking for working boys who are frum and I know others who also are. How can i get in touch with you??? Seems like there are many girls out there who are tznius and want a frum working boy.

    Easily understood
    Guest
    Easily understood

    Thank you for your article.As a mother of married children, and also helping my other children who do need shidduchim, I would like to reassure you that there are many ,many girls who are specifically looking for the values, that you hold on to so sincerely, and the balance of being a boy who with Hashem’s help will be able to pay his children’s tuition, and also help others. If you are working with a shadchan who does not respect, and connect with who you are,and actually appreciate your sincere yiras shamayim, then find one who will respect you May… Read more »

    Where are these boys?
    Guest
    Where are these boys?

    I’m always told a working boy won’t be chassidish. Who is working with these bochurI’m and setting up some shidduchim here??

    Tznuis
    Guest
    Tznuis

    I happen to love that it’s coming from the bochorim that hey want tzius girls who will be a good role model and bring up good children

    Working Girl
    Guest
    Working Girl

    I know that I, as well as MOST of my friends (who range from Chassidish, not Chassidish, somewhere in the middle), will only consider someone working, and we we are constantly told that we should ‘lower our standards’.

    So yes bochur, you’re right, we exist! And it’s good to know that you all exist as well.

    To #3
    Guest
    To #3

    Tznius is a Mitzvoh just like any other. There is no reason for a bochur to give up on wanting a tzniusdike wife.

    Love it!
    Guest
    Love it!

    Well written article, on point and gives at least this lady some hope of someone suitable being out there. And glad to hear some bochurim actually are bothered by the lack of tznius that is all too common today.

    working boy
    Guest
    working boy

    I think there are a lot of girls that would be interested in you. Maybe COL could make some shidduchim between you and your friends who are having the same difficulty. Kol Hakavod to you for your emotional honesty and truth.

    To # 3 & 4
    Guest
    To # 3 & 4

    To #3. SO You are saying he should basically give up on this integral and defining issue of a religious bas yisroel? (Yes it is actually called Da’as Yehudis for a reason. And please see the Rambam as to the reason a woman is not entitled to her Kesubah if she does not keep the rules of Tznius) Are you telling him that he has to live with non proper imagery his whole life? Are you telling him that he won’t be able to raise children in a Frum way? 4# while it is very much understood, that you won’t… Read more »

    too much negativity!
    Guest
    too much negativity!

    Hey, attention all those worried about not being married yet…. your time will come. tracht Gut Vet Zein gut. the negativity begets more of the same.Bitachon is a healthier approach. Try it!

    to #17
    Guest
    to #17

    Tznius = Mitzvah in Shulchan Aruch. Issur of colored shirts = man made custom. Don’t compare!!!

    To the author
    Guest
    To the author

    Why would anyone not want to meet a person that works and is frum, I think it is much better to have a career then sit and learn all day, I am sure your bashert is closer then you think

    What is this "Work"
    Guest
    What is this "Work"

    What is this “work” you speak of? Perhaps you yourself are unsure of what you are looking for. I’d like to suggest, instead of searching outward for your bashert, search inward. Do you really think you fit the criteria for a nice chassidishe boy? Have you not heard that one who works does not truly fit the chabad model…unless you make a lot of money and are a sponsor of course. You have two choices: Either stop working and only study in 770 and wait for a nice tznius girl to pick you up with her dowry, or make tons… Read more »

    to 27
    Guest
    to 27

    RELAX! second- would you marry a background like any of our avos?NO! so I’m trying to help him see the reality how people take colored shirts!

    To #16
    Guest
    To #16

    # 16.

    The question is not up to our personal hergeshim and feelings.

    These are facts like all other facts.

    So the real question is not what you or others may consider (whether or not they are informed of the actual facts) to be a tzniusdige look, rather one has to hit the books, and see what the Halocho actually says,

    huh?
    Guest
    huh?

    literally every young woman I know wants a guy who works and is on the path to a career that can support a family.

    I think the shadchanim are clueless.

    To #4
    Guest
    To #4

    Which Gemara? Do you have a source?

    Author
    Guest
    Author

    Wow. I had not expected such a positive response. I guess people can get ahold of me through the editor if they’d like.

    Bottom line
    Guest
    Bottom line

    In black and white terminology: it’s not a crime, but it’s not.ideal and people shouldn’t think it is. The REbbe gave clear horaos where bochrim belong more or less הוראות לרבים. Obviously if a bochur reaches a certain point that he no longer fits the criteria for an individual in the bochur stage: exceptions /changes may apply. Post marraige: a chossid in the 7th generation: goes on shlichus unless otherwise got explicit instructions from the rebbe. Nothings changed besides for perhaps our challenges. So yes it’s less ideal for a chassodishe girl: who is pursuing a life of the strongest… Read more »

    From a small-time shadchan
    Guest
    From a small-time shadchan

    You sound like a fine boy, and I agree that there are plenty of girls who would be happy to meet someone like you! I am assuming, of course, that you have fine middos. As the Rebbe told people, if a shadchan isn’t helping you [and — this is my view, not what the Rebbe said — is giving you negative feedback], go to a different shadchan. There are enough around. Don’t lower your standards — I know you won’t, but I’m saying it anyway. I wish you much hatzlacha. Please post again when you get engaged IYH soon! Yes,… Read more »

    To number 4
    Guest
    To number 4

    You should get your Facts straight, Yes the Rebbe wanted Bochurim to learn till they get married. No the Gemara actually says that one shold get a job before getting married!

    Not Necessarily True
    Guest
    Not Necessarily True

    To the comment “The Rebbe strongly wanted bochurim to learn until they were married.” Generally, that may be true, but not for everyone. I know a boy who was 19 and did not find it easy to sit all day and learn. During Tishrei 5739 he asked the Rebbe if he should go back to the yeshivah and learn or perhaps go to work. The Rebbe told him to ask his mashpiah, Reb Nissan Nemenov. Reb Nissan told him he should go to work. He became a chasidishe yunger man who is always involved in the Rebbe’s inyanim. Of course… Read more »

    #4 and the author perfect match
    Guest
    #4 and the author perfect match

    Both of you are judging a book by its cover. The author does not want to be judged by his career path, yet is perfectly fine judging others on the level of their CHOSEN tznius. Pot/kettle don’t really see the difference? Maybe that’s the root of the so called shiduch crisis? Too much judgement. There’s way too many social ramifications that seem to be factored into marriage nowadays. Advice from a once upon a time non “tznius” single lady who married a working guy. Take a chance. Don’t judge. People grow and change. And if you’re lucky enough you will… Read more »

    Oh please
    Guest
    Oh please

    So you are responsible, taking care that you will be on track for financial independence. Many girls – AND THEIR PARENTS – are desperately looking for guys like you.

    You and your friends ought to go to another shadchen – one who respects and appreciates your choices. And hopefully, we’ll go to the same shadchen. And then, you’ll be redt to girls who are looking for guys like you.

    I'm 17
    Guest
    I'm 17

    Comment 31 was meant for 28

    Great Articale
    Guest
    Great Articale

    All having a job shows is that you know now that you’re not going to move on shlichus and you aren’t the type to spend a full day learning but at the same time want to be constructive.

    Awwwww
    Guest
    Awwwww

    So you’re a perfect chassidish bachur who happens to be set up with these horrible untznius girls. Rotfl. I’m sure it’s them and not you.

    Maybe become more chassidish get off the internet keep your eyes in the books after work and york on that inner you and then you won’t have time to think about all the problems and maybe you’ll be offered a higher calibre. You get what you give.

    Great article
    Guest
    Great article

    I love those people who play the rebbe card, the rebbe never said that a bachur can’t work untill he’s married, he said that a bachur shouldn’t think about tachlis and when it comes the time he will figure it out, but someone that’s finished the system and is getting ready to get married, learning smicha for example and taking a ged course, or a side job, the rebbe’s is now doubt proud of him.

    Wow!!! Finally!!!
    Guest
    Wow!!! Finally!!!

    I thought I was the only one who did that! The same EXACT case happened to me! I turned down a shidduch prospect bc of tznius and the shidduch was suggested to begin with bc I said I want to have parnasa when I get married!!! Shadchanim stereotype way too much! Wish I knew who u are. This is so good to know that others are all on the same boat! You’ve encouraged me a lot! People were telling me I’m being too hooked on the tznius thing and that once the girl gets married and grows older she’ll start… Read more »

    To #4
    Guest
    To #4

    “The way of sensible men is that first, one should establish an occupation by which he can support himself. Then, he should purchase a house to live in and then, marry a wife…in contrast, a fool begins by marrying a wife. Then, if he can find the means, he purchases a house. Finally, towards the end of his life, he will search about for a trade or support himself from charity.” (Hilchot De’ot 5:11) Not sure which Gemara your refering to.

    #16 what is tznius?
    Guest
    #16 what is tznius?

    Collarbone needs to be covered; knees need to be covered. If you don’t cover them, you are not tznius! Don’t convince yourself that you are.

    Ch'er
    Guest
    Ch'er

    Read & understood very clearly your situation.
    I don’t know you so I can’t label or catogorize you in any way whatsoever. However, I take your words plain and simple. Not reading anything more then just your actual words. Please remember יש מנהיג לבירה זו
    Its Hashem who is the real Shadchin here. All others are שלוחים לב״הב
    If you are legit as you say. Trust and have faith in Hashem your זיווג will come when and how Hashem wants it. Have no fear. Allow Hashem to do his work.

    Happily married now, but...
    Guest
    Happily married now, but...

    When I was in shidduchim I stuck it out in 770 after semicha. It was a very hard time. Not really learning, waking up late, bull shoving all night, it was a real moshav Leitzim. Today, a lot of of the very good bochurim are working in JEm Merlos JLI chabad.org My shliach etc etc and not sitting around. Good on them! It’s probably a sign of more productive, responsible, capable. Its a much healthier choice than what my Chevra were kind of forced into. A type of fake show just for shidduchim purposes. Let’s be honest, people.

    My son
    Guest
    My son

    who has Dayonus, and is in business, 25, was told that the girl is ‘too worldly’, meaning she is dressed like a ‘chabad lite’ with a real short dress etc etc.
    so worldly is indeed bad

    The Facts
    Guest
    The Facts

    Dear Working Boy, Since there a rare few girls who are tznius these days, those girls will most likely go for a guy who is doing what the Rebbe wants. In Chabad there are so many girls who want to build a Chassidishe home but are not tznius and they are looking for boys who care about minyan and Halacha. The girls who are tznius are looking for something more. It sounds like you’re looking for a girl who’s a perfect blend: beautiful, sophisticated, put together, tznius, educated and the list goes on. It’s time to assess yourself. You opened… Read more »

    Talmid chacham to #28
    Guest
    Talmid chacham to #28

    Please get your facts Straight.
    Learn shabbos, person bameh Isha yotza. About Darkei haemori.
    Shulchsn aruch yoreh deah I think it’s in siman nun’s.

    Involved with good things
    Guest
    Involved with good things

    It seems that boys who are involved in chassidishe pursuits before marriage manage to keep their standards up. If there’s a working boy like that, most girls with high standards will be open to it. When you bring in the word “wordly” now that will scare off some people. If you want to attract a tznius, yirei shamayim, take my advice and remove that word from your resume or chats with shadchanim. As I once read in a letter from the Rebbe: you’re searching for the right things, the other things will come too. So make those you main focus.… Read more »

    Sounds like my type of guy!!
    Guest
    Sounds like my type of guy!!

    Is there a way to be in touch with this person? Or his friends?

    shidduch crisis
    Guest
    shidduch crisis

    agree with 33. its very hard to understand why there is such a crisis. there are tons of girls who wold want a working boy and are tsnius. but the author should realize that the real chassidishe girls do not match a working boy unless he is in klei kodesh.

    I'm a Shadchan
    Guest
    I'm a Shadchan

    How do I reach you? There definitely are girls who want to meet you.

    To 33
    Guest
    To 33

    Not the one’s looking to move on shlichus.. Apparently you don’t know any very chassidish girls.

    To #29
    Guest
    To #29

    Apparently you’re forgetting about moving out on shlichus. If a chassidish girl wants to move in shlichus, she won’t marry someone who is working. Learning is the age old Jewish custom to prepare for becoming a Rabbi.

    The point
    Guest
    The point

    I am afraid most commenters are missing the point. Unfortunately, the bottom line of this article seems to be: Unless a girl is very Chassidish (in which case she, of course, insists on a boy who is still learning), she is not likely to be tzniusdik k’halacha!!! Is there nothing in between? Even if you aren’t so Chassidish, Frumkeit doesn’t matter? What have we come to as a community that to find the basics of Yiddishkeit in a girl is a challenge? We are talking about Shulchan Aruch – Shabbos, Kashrus, Tznius. Yes, they are equally mandatory! The Rebbe told… Read more »

    To the working single
    Guest
    To the working single

    You seem like a terrific person and I know out there the right woman will come along and appreciate you. Hopefully people with suggestions will reach out to COL and make contact with you

    To number 52
    Guest
    To number 52

    You say that in chabad,a girl is not likely to cover her knees??!that is a really sad statement to make and we need to do something about it,to improve!I have heard it all before…she is tznius conscious,she has a tznius look about her….this passes for tznius today….etc etc.All wrong! If it meets Halacha criteria it is tzniusdik. Then of course there is the sensitivity to do even more than the basics . If it does not meet basic Halacha it is not tznius and no euphemisms can change that fact. Shame we let ourselves drop so low,that we can say,oh… Read more »

    Mazel tov
    Guest
    Mazel tov

    I totally agree I I’m still in yeshiva but can see myself in a similar situation. Anyway based on the comments It looks like you will be getting married soon so mazel tov.

    Not sure I fully agree
    Guest
    Not sure I fully agree

    I am now bh happily married for 6 years and it is possible that things have changed since then. But, in my experience buchrim who really were as you describe yourself were snatched up quickly. The person you describe yourself to be is exactly what many many girls were searching for and and had a hard time finding. Obviously, everything is in the hands of hashem but if you really are where you say you are, statistically, you should have an easy time finding a shiduch.

    LEARN 'TILL YOU DROP?
    Guest
    LEARN 'TILL YOU DROP?

    I’m so fed up about this new age phenomenon that “it’s all up to the Aibishter”
    Bochurim these days are being kept in a cocoon right up to the wedding night and then THROWN INTO THE DEEPEND (trust me, I know from personal experience)
    Let’s face it. 2017 is not like 1817, today, you NEED skills!
    unless of course you want to live on F. Stamps, Wic & Medicaid thereby continuing this perpetual poverty in our midst and be government scammers.
    SOLUTION: it’s time for vocational/ skill training IN yeshiva.

    Crown heights noshim
    Guest
    Crown heights noshim

    How sad
    Malign the fantastic girls of CH
    I used to travel the Boro Park bus
    I used to be inspired and uplifted
    Seeing the ladies and girls enthused with yiras shamim saying Tehilim, learning sifrei kodesh etc.
    We must value what we have
    Let’s not pick holes
    Let’s elevate not denigrate

    What you are looking for is good
    Guest
    What you are looking for is good

    It is very responsible of the author to try to make a living in order to support himself and his future family, that is something that should be praised. Where do people think money for food and bills come from? Young people shouldn’t rely on their parents to support them, the parents themselves may not have enough. The whole idea of Chabad is to turn the negativity of the outside world into something more positive, one doesn’t have to run and hide from the outside working world. In order that it shouldn’t affect you, one has to be strong inside.… Read more »

    Taking initiative
    Guest
    Taking initiative

    All singles or their parents are welcome to email me at [email protected] anonymous. I want to volunteer to see if I can help set up a few of the young men/women here. Can’t hurt to try!

    Jswipe - it's time to wake up and do something
    Guest
    Jswipe - it's time to wake up and do something

    Shadchans as well as parrents can be so out of touch, we need a chabad version of Jswipe let technology solve the problems, we live in a modern time and the stigma I’ve roblime dating is far behind us. Get with the program and stop complaining here, I would suggest that then all the experts should focus on educating people on how to actually connect with people and how to date effecfivly. Being out of the system and always reading these articles pains me, seems like all these shadchans are out of touch and many of the singles don’t understand… Read more »

    working is bad? really?
    Guest
    working is bad? really?

    I had the same issues with my boys and they had degrees. what is wrong with working? what is wrong with a little ambition? when has it become ok to go on medicaid and section 8 instead of working and paying your own way (dont get me wrong medicaid and benefits are ok if you really need them– but NOT as the way to go). people are told to get married but not how to support themselves. where does that responsibility lie? with the parents? with the grandparents? are these kids getting married or are they playing house? in my… Read more »

    Yehuda
    Guest
    Yehuda

    To #4. Many years ago when I was in yeshiva and I was 23 years old. My Mashpia Reb Volf Greenglass a”h told me that since I am not as dedicated to my learning as I should be it’s time for me to find a job. I told him I will ask the Rebbe. For a few months I didn’t get an answer so I asked Reb Volf to ask the Rebbe when he goes into yechidus. He asked and the Rebbe told him it’s a gleichezach. So if a bochur isn’t fully committed to learning there is no reason… Read more »

    Snort
    Guest
    Snort

    Dude. You are fine. You are doing very well, actually. The fact that you are working shows that you are mature, hard-working, committed, and responsible. All important characteristics for a good marriage. You will find a girl who will have/appreciate the important things – like you do.

    I support you!
    Guest
    I support you!

    Yes you can be a good Frum, Chassidish and work, and you should not give up your true values, and don’t give up on finding a good Chassidishe girl who shares similar values. We all agree that the ultimate is to study in Yeshiva till your wedding and go on the Rebbes Shlichus afterwords, but someone who for what ever reason doesn’t feet this category should and must stay a Chassidishe boy, husband and father. And IYH with the Rebbes Brochos since the Rebbe does not forget about his Chassidim, you will find the right girl to hep you raise… Read more »

    to no 70
    Guest
    to no 70

    woah woah. The Rebbe did want the bochurim to learn until they get married and those who do that for real are definitlely more chassidish. with that being said, that doesnt mean that a bochur who is working deserves a girl lacking in tsnius. sadly sadly there is a big lack of tsnius nowadays, and the bochur should hold his ground bec. there are frum tsnius girls that would match. and to nu. 70 bhbh ive see many bochurim teaching, laining, shoyel umaishiv all in the geder of learning, klei koidesh and yet able to support themselves, and nicely. I… Read more »

    to # 65
    Guest
    to # 65

    you are so right..vocational training is way to go. especially since there are no shlichus jobs out there anymore and getting less every day. what are the ‘good’ bochurim supposed to do?

    to the Editor: Yasher Koach for taking this initiative. Finally something good can come out of this.
    And to the writer…thanks for bringing this out in the open. it’s a good and long discussion we need to have.

    #52
    Guest
    #52

    You are living in a bubble and it is not CH! There are many great girls out there who are very frum and chassidish and tznius. The same is with the boys. Just because they want to provide for their families and not spend their entire live learning, which is not Chabad, does not mean they are not chassidish. Shlichus is not for everyone. A person can work and still have set sedarim for learning. This is exactly what my daughter and many of her friends and this author and many of his friends are looking for.

    list of these boys
    Guest
    list of these boys

    If you put a list of these boys here on collive then I’m sure they will all be engaged in a few months – working but frum and of course also normal and a mentch!

    #68 again
    Guest
    #68 again

    Dear author:
    If you would like, please email me. I have requests for your information. You have made a good impression on many. There is a girl for you out there.

    Good for you
    Guest
    Good for you

    Hashem WILL bless you with all you require! Be proud . If anyone has read the Lubavitcher Rebbes memoirs or similar reading the mystics were working men!!!!
    We must guard our tznius! You should be proud of yourself.

    Its not that complicating...
    Guest
    Its not that complicating...

    I cant believe there are people writing here that not earning a penny before your married is somehow a good thing?

    who is it good for? the wife? certainly not, that she should live in poverty… for the bochur? he’s going to have to work anyway after he’s married so what the big deal if he wants to be stable before?

    and yes there are plenty of girls who dress tznius that agree with this logic.

    The Gezsh
    Guest
    The Gezsh

    I am a alter working Bochur and I think that this double standard that the author keeps talking about is disgusting. Nobody is going to give you a participation trophy for completing ” the system”. This is the real world where you have to connect to people whether you like the way they dress or don’t, it’s not Zal where the Mashpia controls the statues quo on what color shoes you can wear. People have feeling, people have lived. The world does not revolve around you, the sooner you figure that out the better off you will be.

    Role models
    Guest
    Role models

    The prolem is that the role models are ” very chasidish ” but NOT! tzniyus a nuther prolem is. The stores in ch dont sell very tznius clothing but every body convinces then selves that its rzniyus and the mane problem. The schools dont really talk about it. The teachers are not tzniyus but every body convinces themselves that they are since there frend is wors.

    Author
    Guest
    Author

    @ # 68 / 78

    If people would like to get a hold of me, they can reach out through the COL editor.

    To #53
    Guest
    To #53

    There is nothing in that entire discussion of darkei ha’emori about colored clothing; you’re making that up. Perhaps if you would crack open a Shulchan Aruch and learn the relevant halachos (they’re not in the nun’s, by the way – those are the halachos of treifos – but rather simanim 178ff), you would find this for yourself.

    Indeed, you seem to be unfamiliar with the Gemara’s comment in Bava Metzia 27b (something that our fifth-graders learn), כליו בחיורי וסומקי, that a Jew (whose body we found) may have been wearing white _or red_ garments.

    YES there are tznius girls looking for working boys
    Guest
    YES there are tznius girls looking for working boys

    YES there are tznius girls looking for working boys. tznius – as in decorum, way of thinking and dress. Tznius as in NEVER not wearing pantyhose nor wearing anything the tznius police would even question.
    And they are frum – daven shachris every day, and say chitas, and do chesed.
    and go to school for a profession.

    For whatever reasons, they are concerned about parnassah and want a frum bochur who shares their strong frum values.

    Let's try to have a rational discussion rooted in our holy teachings
    Guest
    Let's try to have a rational discussion rooted in our holy teachings

    In theory I agree with the writer saying that it’s possible to be Chassidish and work but 1. In many cases the bochrim that work aren’t as Chassidish as the ones who are still learning. (This is not saying that they would be more Chassidish by staying in 770 ) 2. I do believe (ideally) a Bochur is supposed to be learning or at least involved in holy stuff. We have an obligation to get married, the only Heter to delay it is for the purpose of learning torah so if you stop learning you put yourself into a pickle..… Read more »

    Question?
    Guest
    Question?

    What if someone learns in 770 the whole day but on the other hand he wears colored shirts?

    A single girl
    Guest
    A single girl

    Sorry that you have to deal with shadchanim who are not helpful and don’t know what they are talking about. I would be very interested in a Shidduch with the author, And I don’t speak for.myself- it’s hard for me to think of a girl who DOESNT want someone working. By definition, a husband and father is someone who is responsible to support his family. It’s very sad that people delude themselves into this ridiculous mentality of “working boys are not as frum” or this ludicrousness of newly married wives who are expecting and running around to bring in the… Read more »

    Boruch N. Hoffinger
    Guest
    Boruch N. Hoffinger

    Great article! Badly needed. Todah for expressing your problems. I am a grandfather & met my wife in Crown Heights through a ‘shadcun.’
    Dear #7 ‘Could be a maaleh,’
    Why doesn’t the author contact a ‘shadcun’ or ‘beis din’ (Whatever appropriate) so the author & woman can meet?
    ‘Hatzlacha Raabah!’

    To # 52
    Guest
    To # 52

    If she wants a husband who cares about halacha she should too!! Starting with dressing tzniusly!

    Tznius is halocha not "chassidish"!
    Guest
    Tznius is halocha not "chassidish"!
    you seem like a wonderful bochur
    Guest
    you seem like a wonderful bochur

    This whole system is nuts. What in the world is wrong with working!!! How are young couples supposed to survive? What, suddenly the day after the sheva brochos he will have a job, with zero experience………
    PLEASE folks get real. And yes, you can be working and be tznius and chassidish, I”ve been doing it half of my life……..

    Been there, done that
    Guest
    Been there, done that

    This could have been me writing 20 years ago. Author, stay strong. I went through similar challenges and am married to the most wonderful eishes chayil. Two practical suggestions: Make sure you have a daily chavrusa in the morning before daavenning. This helps set the tone for the rest of your day while you are at work and is at the core (kovia itim) of every chasidishe yid. My wife and I both worked with the same well known, reputable shadchen in CH who knew us both well and never thought to redt the shidduch. Shadchonim are good at piecing… Read more »

    to 87
    Guest
    to 87

    Sorry to talk up front:depends a lot on his background. FFB or BT? FFB , majority wouldn’t (unless if a girl doesn’t mind or is in a similar level as himself )BT, certainly!

    Working isn't a bad thing
    Guest
    Working isn't a bad thing

    Funny!

    I went through the same exact thing.

    You are dealing with old fashion, backwards people who clearly never heard or learned a Sicha about Yosef Hatzadik and the importance AND HOLINESS of working.

    Clearly they haven’t.

    My advice, don’t stress and try online dating.

    To #88
    Guest
    To #88

    Just reading the latest comments. 1. “he’s open to shlichus” which is really a euphemism for “he’s a lazy bum who is not interested in putting effort and is just waiting for someone to support him” or “he has no clue what to do with his life so is using shlichus as a cover up”. Why does this make you sick? Why does it bother you? How does this effect your life? Are you being coerced into marrying such a person? 2. Everyone out there is imperfect and by imperfect I mean that most people, if not all, have a… Read more »

    HaShem Yerachem, please stop
    Guest
    HaShem Yerachem, please stop

    As a woman, I find it to be of not such great character to be a man and to be openly discussing women’s tznius issues as if they have the slightest clue what it may actually be like and what it takes to fix what everyone seems to feel is a huge problem. Be it as it may, it is not a man’s place to go and make broad statements and write articles about a woman’s issue. That aside, I know more than a few good girls who are tznius and also want a working guy. This whole idea that… Read more »

    @97
    Guest
    @97

    Cry me a river with your sanctimonious, feminist propaganda. A guy is allowed to complain about a girl not being tznius, just like a girl can complain about a guy trimming his beard. Most of the shidduchim op-eds are written by girls. So, please stop kidding yourself.

    Unreal
    Guest
    Unreal

    I personally know someone who only wears white shirts and listens to goyish music (kol isha includes), and I know someone else who wears colored shirts and never missed a davening with a minyan.

    Shadchan answers:
    Guest
    Shadchan answers:

    Don’t be so quick to blame the shadchan (even though we always get the blame). It is much easier to set up someone who is working these days, than someone who is very chassidish and still in the system. Working boys have a big selection. The problem is when they say they want a girl who dresses tznius. It’s hard enough for the really chassidishe boy who is still learning to find a proper tznius girl. Do you think these girls would entertain an idea of a working boy for even 5 seconds? No way!! Don’t be so quick to… Read more »

    As a working girl....
    Guest
    As a working girl....

    This article gives me hope that there is a bochur out there for me. Shadchanim have been telling me for years, that what I am looking for does not exist. The reality is that it does, and the from working singles know this. Worldly does not equal Chabad-Lite (a.k.a Diet Coke), nor should ever have. There are plenty of educated bochurim who are frum, work, and do not trim. While, there are plenty of educated girls who dress stylishly yet are still tznius. Open up your eyes, shadchanim of Chabad. This is marriage and starting a family, we are talking… Read more »

    Maybe collive should start a shiduchim site
    Guest
    Maybe collive should start a shiduchim site

    It seems so many people want to meet each through the site. It about time collive start connecting people and play a part in a real solution to the problem.

    @98
    Guest
    @98

    There’s nothing feminist about it- its equally annoying. Women shouldn’t either complain about men shaving. If you want someone with a beard go for someone with a beard, there’s nothing stopping you, but don’t whine that someone else doesn’t have a beard or isn’t tznius enough to be your spouse. They have no obligation to change just bc some holy soul decided they’re unhappy with their choices. It’s become a bore. You don’t want someone on that level, don’t go out with someone on that level. Genug shoyn. I will, however, point out that I’ve never seen an article written… Read more »

    @103
    Guest
    @103

    The major difference is that lack of tznius seems to be the norm these days. Even for many so called chassidishe girls. So yes, that does become frustrating.

    Tznius has nothing to do with Chassidish level
    Guest
    Tznius has nothing to do with Chassidish level

    Walk through Flatbush, there are numerous tznius girls. Walk through any frum community anywhere in the world, there are tznius girls.
    It’s HALACHA/minhag hamakom and NOT related to one’s chassidish level.

    OP and others- try out bashertnow, you never know.

    Stand Strong. You are a gem!
    Guest
    Stand Strong. You are a gem!

    The first question the shadchanim ask is “what does he want to do for parnossa?”
    There are tznius girls looking for you.
    To 52….stereotyping gets you nowhere!!

    @100
    Guest
    @100

    Your answer alone is why most frum working singles hate dealing with shadchanim. There are plenty of tznius girls who do not consider themselves “chassidish”. Tznius is a halacha with certain guidelines. For a girl it is covering her elbows, knees, and collarbone while also wearing stockings. For a guy, it is to dress like a mentch. Anything more than that is a minhag. Which is why you cannot state, that not being chassidish cannot be tznius. Most singles are somewhere in the middle of chassidish and modern. Shadchanim need to get out of their little echo-chamber, and understand that… Read more »

    YAWN
    Guest
    YAWN

    OK, it’s getting tedious. 10 years ago, even 5, there was a stigma, but not today. Girls are more realistic: Shlichus is very hard to find, they want a decent standard of living, they don’t see themselves working like horses in the middle of Mongolia.

    I would guess, based on your article, that any rejection or stigma has more to do with your self-satisfied & superior attitude than what you do. And girls today don’t want a snob. Try changing your attitude (not your standards!) & just maybe you will find a more sympathetic shadchan to help you.

    To 97 and 103
    Guest
    To 97 and 103

    I know, we should really stop asking people to keep to our standards. Let’s drop mivtzoim, shlichus and all the peulos that we make to get other Jews to keep to our standards.

    To 102 and all of similar opinions
    Guest
    To 102 and all of similar opinions

    Col already puts up pics of bochurim and young women to help out shiduchim. We thank them for all their work despite all the maligim.

    Keep your eyes on guys
    Guest
    Keep your eyes on guys

    Enough looking at girls and deciding if they are tznius. These comments are the first I’ve heard of beard talk. The only thing that seems to preoccupy boys minds these days is the internet and girls tznius. Get off the internet, become frum, and the women will follow.

    @99  most realistic comment
    Guest
    @99 most realistic comment

    I married into a super chasdidishe family, but my husband was the “black sheep” because he wore jeans (gasp). He works, is kind and has the best middos and well known for helping anyone in need. Yet all of his white shirt only siblings, who are all learners have mastered living the double life and lack basic kindness.
    Lesson look at the person not the stereotype

    סליחה על השפה.
    Guest
    סליחה על השפה.

    לענ”ד כל אחד ואחד חייב לקחת אחריאות כדי ליישר ולהטיב את חב”ד, ב”ה ישנם הרבה דברים טובים,ואשרינו מה טוב חלקינו, אך יחד עם זה ישנם הרבה מאוד בעיות צניעות סמים דיכאון חסר עבודה חסר לימוד התורה וכ”ו ,וכל יום שעובר ניהיה יותר קשה לתקן. ראשית כל אין אצלינו גוף שיכול להחליט בשביל כולם,לפני ג’ תמוז היה ברור כי הרבי אמר ואף אחד לא ניסה לפרש (כמובן שתמיד יש יוצא מן הכלל) כיום איש הישר בעיניו יעשה + חב”ד בנויה מאנשים עם רקע מאוד חסידי ומצד שני הרוב הם בעלי תשובה דבר שגורם הרבה יותר מיזוג, אך קושי גדול לעשות איזון.בסוף… Read more »

    @103
    Guest
    @103

    Yes, it’s Feministic to say as you say. The premise that there even are distinctly MEN’s and WOMEN’s “issues” is a secular-foreign idea that has no place in our community, and also happens to not be reality-based. Men and women can comment on all issues in our community, and no person or group or gender can declare themselves immune or separate from the larger community. One person’s (perceived or real) problem is everyone’s problem. Stop dividing people. We live together. It’s your right in this country to live how you wish, but don’t think others don’t have at least as… Read more »

    Reality Check
    Guest
    Reality Check

    Today a shadchan told me: “If a bochur doesn’t shave and also wears tzitis – that means he is frum and chassidish.” Our standards of “frum” or “chassidish” are so low that it is meaningless and pathetic.

    @97
    Guest
    @97

    You are right on the money!! There is no other way I would express this and you have my highest and utmost respect.

    Sincerely,
    A girl in need of a mashpia

    Really
    Guest
    Really

    You are not a rare breed give me a break. Not sure what shadchonim you speaking to but you should shop around. The young lady you described is the majority not the exception. Very few no matter how frum/chassidish/ worldly, want to go on shlichus today. That translates into a working bachorim. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and be proactive. It’s your job to search for your Zivug.

    From Satmar alter buchor
    Guest
    From Satmar alter buchor

    As a working boy myself, albeit different because the Satmar mentality is really to go and work unless a buchor past 20 is a mega-student, I can relate to what you are saying. I consider my standards of tznius very high, I mean, even in Satmar, such as wearing seamed stockings, and, yes, I am still in training for an undergraduate degree. I know that I am not going to be set up with a rebbishe woman, but trying to do that would be wrong because a tax accountant does not need to marry the most ultra-Orthodox lady in this… Read more »

    To some of the comments
    Guest
    To some of the comments

    A. What exactly do the words “My chosen Tznius” mean? Tznius is a Halocho in Shulchan Aruch, and is actually from the most important ones. does one chose to put on Tefilin? maybe to keep Yom Tov or even Yom Tov Sheini or the like? this is no different then the conservative doctrine. B. It is true the author is being judgmental, but so what who cares? I would hope you are judgmental in regards to deciding who to hire as an employee, or the like. were you not to do so, then it would impair your ability to make… Read more »

    Keep up your standard!
    Guest
    Keep up your standard!

    A Tznius girl typically has confidence, class, and could be trusted more as the foundation of your home – requiring Yiras Shamayim

    Please list the adequate jobs or careers that girls are looking for?
    Guest
    Please list the adequate jobs or careers that girls are looking for?

    I’m waiting?

    To 109 & 110
    Guest
    To 109 & 110

    Is that sarcasm I detect? 🙂

    Boys colored shirts
    Guest
    Boys colored shirts

    Look at the farbrengen videos of the 70s and 80s lots of bochurim wearing colors shirts. We nearly all wore colored shirts in yeshiva in those days.

    The policy not to wear colored shirts started right after gimel tamuz by some roshei yeshivos, (they would have never implemented it before gimel tamuz…)

    Can someone find me one sicha of the Rebbe were he talks about bochurim not wearing colored shirts?

    Terrible policy to implement,, for many reasons,,

    To the Author
    Guest
    To the Author

    If you consider yourself as a Bochur with values, why you are commenting on the issue of girls’ Tzniyus?
    Surely as a Bochur that’s not your domain…

    to #27, #28 and #48
    Guest
    to #27, #28 and #48

    its written clearly in seforim that tznius is the equivalent of tztiz and yarmulka by a boy so if a girl doesn’t dress tzniusly, how can she expect a boy that is ‘chasidish’

    a bachur should learn full time  thats the halacha
    Guest
    a bachur should learn full time thats the halacha

    Hilchos Talmud Torah of the alter rebbe chapter 3 halacha 5

    Yawn
    Guest
    Yawn

    Same story all over again… I think it’s delusional to believe that all bochurim are expected to learn Torah all day while waiting to get married. If Lubavitch were truly filled to the brim with such iluyim, it would look totally different… To the author- be proud of your taking initiative and utilizing your time properly- a healthy balance of Torah im derech eretz. Your future wife and family (it will happen soon with Hashem’s help!) will thank you and admire you for it! As for the ridiculous double standard: They criticize you for working now, but they will have… Read more »

    Shlichus and chassidish
    Guest
    Shlichus and chassidish

    Not everyone on shlichus behaves or dresses so chassidish. I’ve seen inappropriate clothes on shluchim and their children. I’ve heard lots of worldly talk from shluchim. If you grew up on shlichus you are more likely to get a shlichus position. The rest of us, most have to work.

    #124
    Guest
    #124

    See Point C in #119

    to 123
    Guest
    to 123

    I wouldn’t want my husband to wear colored shirts for the simple reason the rebbe never did.Just like the men wear todaythe rebbes hat and not the freierdiker rebbes. In addition colored shirts, appear more modern looking then white shirts.

    To 26
    Guest
    To 26

    Gemara Kiddushin whole discussion about whether to learn before or after you get married.

    Don't be so cheap
    Guest
    Don't be so cheap

    if you are a working bochur, I assume you are making some money.
    Offer the shadchan 5K instead of 1K and they will get to work.
    Why is everyone shocked that shadchanim focus on long hanging fruit when all they get compensated is for low hanging fruit?

    hey collive?
    Guest
    hey collive?

    can you start thinking of a way to connect all these comments? seems there are so many people who are like minded who feel like they are alone but suddenly in the comments there are so many! Any ideas on how to get these people to connect in a kosher fashion?

    To #132
    Guest
    To #132

    Who offers a GOOD shadchan money before engagement?
    I have spoke to over 20, and not one discussed money. Ever.

    Let's meet up
    Guest
    Let's meet up

    I know lots of girls who are looking for guys like you.
    Compile a list with your name and friends in the same position and forward It to the col editor and then we will talk .

    to the author
    Guest
    to the author

    Not every boy that is looking to get married is fit to learn, In todays world you need a career or else you wont be able to provide for your wife, and you are going to be living on Food stamps and Wic, I think their are a lot of young ladies out there that would love to meet a man like you

    website with profiles
    Guest
    website with profiles

    and pictures like Frumster needed for Lubavitch. and more networking events. לא היו ימים טובים לישראל כחמישה עשר באב

    How about one shadchan coordinate all these commenters?
    Guest
    How about one shadchan coordinate all these commenters?

    Let’s have one man in the middle.

    Can anyone recommend a shadchan? Contact information?

    Lubavitch working boy seeking Tora-True Girl
    Guest
    Lubavitch working boy seeking Tora-True Girl

    I don’t know which shadchanim you are speaking to , but I know tons of girls looking for responsible boys willing to earns living . Maybe you should look outside the Lubavitch world. Tora isn’t limited to lubavitchism. But if you aren’t willing to do that , maybe your not as open minded as you thought.

    What is chasidish anyways ?
    Guest
    What is chasidish anyways ?

    Chasidism nowadays is nothing more that a culture thing that has nothing to do with Torah values. Like someone commented previously , the “black sheep” wears jeans but has good middos , and the so called “frum” ones wear the accepted garb , but lack basic middos. Can any one bring a Chazal that says a white shirt and black pants is praised in the Torah ?or brings one closer to G-D? Whereas “middos tovos ” and “lev Tov ” is the highest praise mentioned by Chazal !!!

    A man with a plan!
    Guest
    A man with a plan!

    My Shadchans name is Avraham he is a professional matchmaker and he is willing to to take phone calls for working Buchrim. His number is (646) 535-5770.

    Practical
    Guest
    Practical

    Send me anonymous info on singles at [email protected]

    X