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Tuesday, 19 Av, 5779
  |  August 20, 2019
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    To Photo or Not to Photo

    From the COLlive inbox: A 23-year-old bochur in Shidduchim wonders whether it is really a good idea to send a photo before a date. Full Story

    While Returning from the Ohel…

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    c'mon!
    Guest
    c'mon!

    don’t you think you are taking things a bit out of proportion??

    Pseudonym
    Guest
    Pseudonym

    I am a 24 year old bochur and have been on plenty of dates and have never seen a pic before any of then. However I do see the advantage for those that want to be able to see beforehand the pic. A pic can help settle in your mind doubts that you had beforehand an can make you more open to seeing her.

    bachur
    Guest
    bachur

    the rebbeh said you must find your partner attractive in some level.
    Not saying a picture is a make it or break it but it doesnt seem like it would be against the Rebbeh.
    I like the fact we can talk about the Rebbehs opinions and care too. Makes me feel like a proud chossid

    Mendel
    Guest
    Mendel

    Get ’em parents!

    married
    Guest
    married

    obviously written by someone who never dated, its easy to be a Boky on theory, but you are one big Hack a Chanick

    Thank you for your thoughts
    Guest
    Thank you for your thoughts

    Just one question to you, and I would very much like an answer.
    If the possible date has low enough self-esteem that they do not want there picture seen,; Is that not a sign that there may be an underlying issue?

    ugh!
    Guest
    ugh!

    my mother is trying to force me to go out with someone but after seeing his picture i have no interest! is that wrong??

    A picture is a must - for girls
    Guest
    A picture is a must - for girls

    Let me ask you, writer of the article, are you perhaps the child of a Ba’al Teshuva? I don’t mean this Chas Vesholom in a negative way, it’s just that I want to make a certain point crystal clear: Regardless of all the Tanya and Chassidus that you learn, one thing will always remain a hard fact: you must believe that your wife is pretty. She must be beautiful in your eyes. This fact can NEVER be overlooked or overshadowed, no matter how talented, popular, smart or funny she is. If you don’t think she is beautiful physically, then I… Read more »

    I agree...
    Guest
    I agree...

    How can one judge compatibility through an image? A image can be completely false and usually is. It isn’t hard to look happy and carefree. This is one of the things I have against social sights like Facebook. Some simply display something that doesn’t exist in order to put up a false image.
    Who knows how many Basherts were rejected because of the picture system?

    She's Gonna See You
    Guest
    She's Gonna See You

    Of course it is wiser to send a picture, she is going to see you anyway. If she doesn’t like you, you will have wasted your time, so you might as well find out if she likes how you look before you spend any money or time.

    shadchan who does not work with pictures
    Guest
    shadchan who does not work with pictures

    I could not have said it better myself. Girls are worth more then being analyzed and judged on one picture. A person is worth more than what a picture can display. Enough degrading girls who are special in so many ways (way more then many boys) but may not be picture perfect.

    Looks Aren't Shallow
    Guest
    Looks Aren't Shallow

    Get over that myth!
    The Gemara in Bava Metzia 84a relates that Rabbi Yochanan would go to the gates of the Mikvah with the intention that the Jewish women would look at him, and thereby influence their own children such that they would have physical beauty!
    Would you say that he was shallow?

    Another bochur
    Guest
    Another bochur

    It dosen’t sound like your much of a bochur with the chutzpah that you have saying what the rebbe would have said! I’m through most of the rebbes Torah myself, but that’s an obserd statement! The rambam says clearly that it’s not only mutar but you should see her beforehand! And it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for a photo..and besides for the Landon you claim to be, you have pretty pathetic logic.

    Thank you!!!
    Guest
    Thank you!!!

    I enjoyed reading something so nicely written by a subjective party. I would love to hear the author’s opinion on Skype dating as a preliminary dating option.

    Fallacies
    Guest
    Fallacies

    You say a mention a few things that I think you should have though through a bit more. “To me it’s obvious the Rebbe wouldn’t want singles sending pictures to each other – even if done through an intermediary.” Why is that obvious? How much more so the Rebbe would be against singles meeting each other? If it is okay to meet isn’t it okay to see a picture? I’m going to ignore the parents issue that you mentioned because it is a entirely separate issue if parents get in the way. You say that: “True, you may have to… Read more »

    Impressed.
    Guest
    Impressed.

    This is incredibly well-written coming from a bochur. No offense to all those out there.

    Wow!
    Guest
    Wow!

    Great article. Lots of solid advice in here. There’s one point you seem to have missed. I can meet someone i don’t find attractive at first, but the more i get to know them, the more i realize how great they are, and the more i like them, i will definitely find that person attractive. until you know someone they’re just a face. like the first day of school everyone looks weird until you get to know them. a person doesn’t have a personality and looks, it’s all part of the same package. if i like someone and they’re nice,… Read more »

    Highly disagree
    Guest
    Highly disagree

    I am a 24 year old boy and went through shidduchim within the last couple of years. If you do not want to look at pictures that is your choice. I wanted to see pictures because as you said to spend money and time to fly around the country is very difficult without at least knowing what the other person looks like. I would hope most people would be mature enough to know that you don’t decide simply based on the picture, but it has to be taken into account. There is nothing worse than flying on a long flight,… Read more »

    hmm.
    Guest
    hmm.

    I would probably ONLY consider dating someone after I have seen a photograph.

    intresting
    Guest
    intresting

    From my understanding and experience no one is judging from a picture it’s just a way of assurance

    consult w/ Maspia of course! :)
    Guest
    consult w/ Maspia of course! :)

    As every case is individual and sometimes, as mentioned, large travelling expenses can arise, one really needs a mashpia to guide them. For example, maybe it would be appropriate to speak on the phone a number of times, and after Skype/ and or see a picture before spending lots of money on airfare. Again, were’ reminded of the Rebbe’s gift to us of having a Mashpia.

    M. D
    Guest
    M. D

    Why do ppl assume what the rebbe meant????? That’s not your place!!!!

    to #17
    Guest
    to #17

    cldnt have said it better myself!!!

    beautiful article i find it 100% true!

    personality attracts!!!!!!!

    A waste!
    Guest
    A waste!

    Yes, it is a waste to just date…taking a chance without knowing what you are getting into! And there’s a lot more at stake than a few dollars! There’s an emotional investment involved with each date!! It’s not a game. I agree that a photo is not a must-we trusted our eldest child’s shadchan that the date was pleasant looking. But for some, a photo gives you an idea of who you’re talking about…do they have soft or harsh features..a certain chein that is appealing. Everyone can be found on line today so it’s not realistic to say we don’t… Read more »

    The Rebbe's opinion?
    Guest
    The Rebbe's opinion?

    Interesting how you decided with certainty that the Rebbe would be against showing pictures beforehand. Don’t lnow where you took that liberty from. I personally know of a couple whom the Rebbe sent each a picture of the other in an attempt to get their shidduch going…

    Facebook
    Guest
    Facebook

    in this days you don’t need any pictures, you can always find her/him in Facebook.

    you are in your young and dumb stage
    Guest
    you are in your young and dumb stage

    1) you have no right to assume what the Rebbe would say one way or the other. Many times he said something in general then something different to an individual, because everything is personal. 2) if you are flying and spending that kind of money then there is a legitimate reason to see a picture. If your local then not so much. 3) if a sending or receiving a picture is so offensive to you, than these “type” of people are obviously not for you, so dismiss them out of hand. 4) all the research in the world will still… Read more »

    well written
    Guest
    well written

    many true points. thank you

    who needs pics?
    Guest
    who needs pics?

    It seems to me that pictures are a crutch/excuse. The fact is that you go out with a girl/boy with the intent of marriage. To be honest with yourself you should say I will not look for a (insert name of Hollywood star) but rather for someone who is fun to be with, has the same values/goals, and who makes me happy. The rest is all irrelevant. If you find someone who meets the above you have done your job and will be satisfied. There are many out there who meet this criteria but are passed over because of a… Read more »

    #17 and author
    Guest
    #17 and author

    100% right!!!

    Author
    Guest
    Author

    To #s 3, 8, 12, 13, 15, 22, 25 – I mentioned that there must be hamshachas ha’lev, but you can decide that when you meet in person. I assume it’s the Rebbe’s opinion because it’s assur to look at women in general. Just because there’s (seemingly) an exception in regards to the marriage decision, that doesn’t mean it becomes a free for all. When you meet in person, you satisfy the halachik requirements of seeing her, and being sure she appeals to you, before marriage. There is still an issur of histaklus outside of fulfilling that requirement (until you’re… Read more »

    Naah
    Guest
    Naah

    The picture is mostly just so they know what to expect however, people care about looks either way. If the persons looks are very not appealing to the date whether they see them in person or in the pic it wouldn’t make a difference. Also, you made a presumptuous statement “In the secular world people only date a particular person because of a good feeling towards the other, whether it stems from looks, charm etc., and not because of any logical compatibility” ummmm that statement is way out of whack. I find the opposite is true. In our shidduch world,… Read more »

    impressive bochur
    Guest
    impressive bochur

    Very well thought out.

    1000 Words
    Guest
    1000 Words

    A picture is worth 1000 words, it’s a fact, so instead up hearing 1000 words from the shadchan and friends and relatives about how pretty or cute s/he is you can just see a picture. Obviously looks is only 1 factor, but no matter when you mention it on the priority list, it’s there. The proof is, have you ever been suggested a shiduch without any mention of looks/

    great article!
    Guest
    great article!

    I agree with this article. My children didn’t see a picture but they had a basic idea like small beard or brown hair. The boys didn’t really understand about dress sizes even though their sisters were always worrying about their weight so they were OK with a more rounded girl as long as she was a nice girl and had a sweet face. I think they meant they wanted to see character and were not obsessed about perfection or beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One of my girls married someone who she says is so handsome.… Read more »

    agree with #17
    Guest
    agree with #17

    Absolutely true!

    My opiion
    Guest
    My opiion

    If someone has to invest in traveling by plane I could understand that they would want a picture.

    Very well said!
    Guest
    Very well said!

    I agree 100% with this bochur. From someone who went out and got married without the pictures (wasn’t a requirement in my days!!) Since the introduction of pictures we hear only of Shidduch crisis and increased divorces, so it is not helping in that area!

    Picture
    Guest
    Picture

    While I do agree with you that you should give someone a chance, even if you don’t love his or her look at first, sometimes pictures tell you about more than just looks. You can tell about a person’s aidelkeit and even a bit about his or her personality based on the picture they send. P.S. I used to look guys up on Facebook before dating them and found out so much from their profiles. A guy who is posing in front of a bar with a beer in his hand in his profile picture, is not exactly gonna be… Read more »

    Finally - someone "gets it"
    Guest
    Finally - someone "gets it"

    I am shocked by all the people who don’t seem to realize that we see people differently once we get to know them!! A person may appear very pretty in a picture, but once you get to know the person and see their ugly personality, suddenly they start to actually appear ugly to you. Likewise someone who you may not find attractive in a picture, once you get to know the person and like them, becomes attractive.

    Unphotogenic
    Guest
    Unphotogenic

    I was never satisfied with my looks, and never satisfied with photos of myself. So, when people tell me I’m pretty, I’m realistic enough to understand it’s most likely because of my personality, wit, and humor. Those are all things that do make a person attractive, yet a picture cannot capture. Just saying.

    FIRST TWENTY YEARS Then what
    Guest
    FIRST TWENTY YEARS Then what

    Who ever marries for looks , its not garranteed !
    you marry for Quality , responsibilty, can she be a good mother to your children IYH .
    Pictures are deceiving , Makeup and a good paint job can make anybody beautiful. whats inside , counts

    Impressed
    Guest
    Impressed

    Very well written and displays thoughtfulness and good middos. I like the response of #17 too. Both express mature and ehrliche opinions and feelings. Very encouraging there are young people with set of values still in this day and age.

    to  #35
    Guest
    to #35

    Your right on!

    Silly
    Guest
    Silly

    When you’ve spent a few hundred dollars, several times, on dates that were completely not shayich – and which you would have known were not shayich in a half a second, I doubt you will still feel this way.

    to #35
    Guest
    to #35

    We are not living in Europe anymore.

    to 31 from 7
    Guest
    to 31 from 7

    that’s a reason i shouldn’t have looked at his picture? but didn’t i save both my time and his time by doing this? if i don’t like what i see in the picture i doubt i’ll like what i see in person….. :/

    Loser
    Guest
    Loser

    This Guy i assume is putting up a good show but is full of ……..
    i say lets start setting him up on blind dates i bet after two of them, his whole long article goes out the window.

    Don't Be Foolish
    Guest
    Don't Be Foolish

    Most people don’t make their decisions based on one picture, they only want a picture to see if it makes any sense at all.
    Of course it is ridiculous to determine someones personality based on a picture, but you can usually tell if you will be attracted to them. And if the person is the type to make decisions solely on one photograph, you probably don’t want to marry them anyway.

    To #46
    Guest
    To #46

    Obviously. Which explains why standards of Chassidishkeit, frumkeit & tznius are at an all time low. Times were tough then, no question, but standards were high. Look around at what we have today, every disgusting thing you can think of in terms of relationships is going on here in Crown Heights. So because we’re modern & in the 21st century, is that a reason to sink to such lows & be like everyone else? You completely missed the point.

    Mom of a Daughter
    Guest
    Mom of a Daughter

    I totally agree with the author that pictures should not be sent. i don’t think you can see a personality from a picture, and someone will be attracted by the personality and it will follow that the face will be attractive to them. For the person who wrote about Facebook (and I add, internet), my daughter has made every effort to make her pictures private and she cannot be googled, we tried. I did “reject” a shidduch based on the fact that the boy (not the parent) asked for a picture. This is not the kind of bochur my daughter… Read more »

    Agree with #18
    Guest
    Agree with #18

    I totally agree with #18. I’m a girl and I don’t mind the whole “trading pictures” deal. As long as they know that this is just a picture and now we could move on to getting to know each other it’s fine by me. Also when you see a picture it lows your expectations of how this person looks like (When you go on a date If they are more attractive in person, now you will be more interested than just being nervous to even simply see them). When you see a pictures you stop imagining things because you already… Read more »

    Highly Impressed
    Guest
    Highly Impressed

    I am a 21 year old single girl, have been out quite a bit and I have to say I am extremely impressed with the thoughts you portrayed so clearly, your hashkafa, your logic, your psychological knowledge and confidence. I am quite surprised that so many commentors disagree- and it worries me that people have become so shallow and can’t understand a logical analysis. Having said that… I want to say my opinion about the pictures… I consider myself good looking, and well dressed, yet I hate sending photos. firstly, I need to find the right photo that would present… Read more »

    agree but...
    Guest
    agree but...

    You are missing some key points about the problem with pictures, and i cant believe no one before #17 touched upon them: 1) pictures do not always do a good job portraying someones looks. I know ppl who are photogenic and actually look better in pics than in real life, and the opposite, ppl who look better in real life, but just do not come out good in pictures, so its wrong to decide if someone is pretty or not based on a picture. You can really only know once you go out. along those lines, please tell me what… Read more »

    To #53
    Guest
    To #53

    You sound like the kind of girl I’m looking for my son. How can I get your information (no photo needed!!)

    An idea
    Guest
    An idea

    Time to download photoshop!

    Pictures are sach hakol pictures
    Guest
    Pictures are sach hakol pictures

    A picture lacks the person’s countenance, personality, disposure, voice, humour and mannerisms because it is still and only captures the appearance. That’s why models in advertisements have more makeup and more dramatised features, to make up for not meeting them in person.

    To the very foolish bochur /author
    Guest
    To the very foolish bochur /author

    To the very foolish bochur /author if in fact it is a bochur who submitted this. You are foolish if indeed these are your feelings on the matter. However your exhibit your amazing foolishness by posting these comments for all to read. You are foolishly implying that your comments and feelings are the correct ones and that everyone else is wrong. What are your many years of experience that lead you to this amazing conclusion? And why do you feel the compulsion to share your feelings with everyone else. Your a bochur? Sit and learn. Your a mashpiah? Go find… Read more »

    Thank you!
    Guest
    Thank you!

    Very well said!

    Did someone say Shidduch photos?
    Guest
    Did someone say Shidduch photos?

    Ell Tee Photo – Facebook.com/ellteephoto

    Offers Shidduch profile photos!!! Try it

    p.s. know that its no photoshop

    no pictures
    Guest
    no pictures

    1- Its not appropriate to send or ask for a profile picture.
    2-Sending a profile picture will not help you make the right decision weather this is a potential shiduch or not.
    3- Don’t judge a person by there looks . All what really counts at the end of the day is inside of the person and you can’t judge the person if he is kind or has a good personalty by examining his picture.

    piece of advice
    Guest
    piece of advice

    They’re bound to find a picture of you either way…might as well present yourself in a manner you’d like to be seen..

    Response from single gurl
    Guest
    Response from single gurl

    Single and 24. Seeing a personality or getting an idea about a person from a picture is a true concept. As far as looks are concerned, i think everyone will agree that its an objective thing and can only be really identified once meeting a person. To make a conclusion from a picture is possible, but can also be done thru research. Let me explain. I’ve gone out with many guys so far, and many of them have been so off my radar, its laughable. for the most part they included thier pic w thier profile so i got to… Read more »

    in my case
    Guest
    in my case

    When I was offered my husband, I knew what he looked like, and I married him-my first date BH! But if i had not known what he looked like, I would have wanted a picture because one of my top 3 things was that I wanted someone who looks put together and I can judge that alot of times accd to picture. so it depends on person. if thats not important to you then dont look at pictures…forsure qualities were not less neccessary for me to like but looks were just as important..good luck!

    in reference to #63
    Guest
    in reference to #63

    all those qualities that you would technichly be able to see in a pic, is not always the case, ppl can make false judgements from pictures. but what definitely is true, is that if your looking for someone put together, or funky or classy, or good looking, or tall, you can find that from research,and yes, sometimes ppl will give a different view as they are of course subjective, just go out and see for yourself if there are no red flags.

    #58 please
    Guest
    #58 please

    You are sooo harsh on this poor boy!!!He expressed his ideas and opinions and has a right to do that- why are u so angry? Here’s one for the books-my daughter looks stunning in photos.Well I think in real life, not so gorgeous. She can at times look fantastic and while studying not so much.However, many of her peers and teachers consider her a star because of her brains and devotion to spreading chassidus. So yeah, someone can see her photo and think wow but in actuality shes a human being-some days she looks blah and some so pretty. If… Read more »

    no pictures
    Guest
    no pictures

    4- Going on a date brings you closer to your bashert, so going out on a shiduch date and then realizing its not your zivug, is not a waste of time.
    5- if you really want to get married and your generous with your money and you did your research and got positive feedbback, then flying without seeing the prospectives picture should not be a problem.

    Final- a profile picture wont help you it will just cause you problems! Thank you for posting this article.
    comment# 53 i agree with you.

    Experience
    Guest
    Experience

    Dear Author: I must commend you on the courage you took to write this piece. I felt your heart warming words, they are full of wisdom. I wish many more people thought the way you did. However let me share with you some experience. I recently wrote a piece that portrayed people’s shallow nature. Let me tell you – they don’t like to hear it. So all the negative comments you are getting are not personal – they are simply immaturities and insecurities of the individuals that take time to comment simply because they have nothing better to do. A… Read more »

    Diff opinions
    Guest
    Diff opinions

    I think that at the end of the day people are all very different in their wants, priorities and attractions. For some, pictures are a must and for others it isn’t.
    Every person must sit and be honest if they will date or not date based on a picture and not disrespect somebody who does not want his/her picture shown before as it is understandable as well.
    A date wont hurt anyone….

    Pics or no Pics who cares!!!
    Guest
    Pics or no Pics who cares!!!

    The truth is with today’s technology anyone can be a model. People who were embarrassed to show their facial image in public,that notion drastically changed in previous years. Plastic surgery is becoming very popular and “YES” even our Frum circles is it being done.Nose Jobs as well as other body parts too inorder to keep up to date with modern fashion. Unfortunately people don’t only look at you neck up. Fashion and who the person is, will also be based what clothing he or she wears,whether the designer is Armani,Gucci Boss or Channel this is key to our good looks.… Read more »

    buby
    Guest
    buby

    i remember when i was the age of 19. which that was around 75 years ago. their was no such things as pictures. everything was kabolis oil.and thats how it sud be today as well.

    G.Q.
    Guest
    G.Q.

    The most important thing is for you to be attracted to the other person. Attraction has many aspects to it; physical looks, personality, character traits all affect how attractive a person is. To get all strung up on looks is wrong, but to totally dismiss it is also wrong. I know that pictures can never accurately portray who the person is or even how the other person looks like, but it can give you a general idea. I hate to say it, but some people are unattractive and no matter how amazing their personality is, I will never be able… Read more »

    Who Cares
    Guest
    Who Cares

    Own it, guuurl, and you’ll look fabulous. If he can’t see that then he’s obviously not for you…

    Its not all about looks
    Guest
    Its not all about looks

    I have met girls before who were not the most attracting phizically but with good middos and personality and wouldn’t mind going with them, as opposed to girls that were good looking but not with the best middos and personality who I would not go out with. Its not all about looks, the attraction on looks come along with time after the attraction regarding other things that are more important. Don’t say no to a picture, I have spoken to many married people and my mashpia and they all agree that the attraction can come with time, why so no,… Read more »

    Ugly Bochur
    Guest
    Ugly Bochur

    As a bochur who is very unattractive, I think there shouldn’t be any pictures. Who cares about looks. What’s important is my personality.

    To Shadchanim
    Guest
    To Shadchanim

    On a realted matter, when a boy or girl doesn’t want to continue dating, don’t pressure them in giving a reason. And if they tell you that they aren’t attracted, don’t dismiss it and push your own views of what is considered good looking. “S/he’s not for me” is a good enough reason. leave it at that.

    The problem with pictures
    Guest
    The problem with pictures

    What if a girl has gone and had a makeover and looks amazing, then had a great photographer who photographed her at just the right angle. The results, a gorgeous picture which technically looks nothing like her every day appearance. Then what about the pretty girls who just don’t photograph well? (more common than you think). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What about all the plain looking people who are blissfully married and their spouse genuinely things they are beautiful? Go out on one date and decide if you want to go further.

    yasher koach
    Guest
    yasher koach

    bottom line: what would the Rebbe say?

    practically speaking: as a baal teshuva who dated and had boyfriends before coming to yiddishkeit: I never had a boyfriend that I thought was good looking when we first met. My boyfriends all became attractive in my eyes only after we met and I saw what a nice person he was.

    To #51
    Guest
    To #51

    I am willing to bet my house that you are a liar. If you had nothing to hide, and your daughter was as gorgeous as you say she is, then you have nothing to worry about and can share a picture when asked for one. There can be one reason and ONE REASON ONLY why you rejected a Shidduch simply for asking for a picture, and that reason would be because you are insecure about her looks, and are afraid of being rejected. The same goes for all the commenters (especially girls) here who say that they don’t like sharing… Read more »

    to #79
    Guest
    to #79

    Not sure if you are trolling, but love the comment. I agree with you 100%

    IN CONCLUSION...
    Guest
    IN CONCLUSION...

    If someone asks you for a picture, that’s a pretty good indication for some of the values they have. If you’re fine with it, great-send your picture and you’re off to a great start knowing that you both share similar concerns. If you’re not fine with it, wait for someone who doesn’t need a picture to decide if you’re attractive or not. You’ll probably have more in common anyway. while I find that this article and some of these comments (#17, #35, #40, #42,, #53, #54, #63 etc) are very well written and full of great information, i feel this… Read more »

    Thank G'd
    Guest
    Thank G'd

    I was blessed with good looks and I love sending my picture. If a girl doesn’t want to, it makes me think there is some serious insecurities going on.

    to #81
    Guest
    to #81

    I totally agree with you, and thats exactly how i think, but easier said than done. EVERYONE wants a picture, so as much as i may disagree or think its pathetic, go fight the system and I may as well find my own guy….right. So if I wanna get married, I send my picture and wtvr, you like it, great, you dont, also great. At the end of the day its an excuse for ppl but in reality G-d makes shidduchim so we really dotn have anything to worry about. Although, it is disturbing, there are also many other disturbing… Read more »

    Pictures Pictures
    Guest
    Pictures Pictures

    bla bla bla. What ever happened to seeing a nice girl in the street and asking her out for coffee?

    To #70
    Guest
    To #70

    Sorry Bubby, I respect you and your generation for your genuine “Kabolas Oyl”, and we have a lot to learn from you, (And the fact that you know how to turn on a computer and write a comment is also very impressive I might say!) but you need to realize that we live in a new generation now. When you got married, there was no pressure to live in a fancy home, drive a fancy car, go on several vacations a year, pay $15,000 a year per child for tuition, buy a summer home, make fancy weddings, Lchaim’s, Brissim, Upsherin…… Read more »

    Disagree with #79, Agree with #81
    Guest
    Disagree with #79, Agree with #81

    to 71- for me i would definitely be interested in the daughter of #51 whereas if i were a girl i would never consider you. #81 said it the best. if you need a picture of me, then it’s probably not shayach. Someone who doesn’t need a picture is someone i probably have more in common with. to each his own.

    my two cents
    Guest
    my two cents

    First of all, see Kidushin 41a. Granted, that gemara refers to seeing someone before you marry them, but it may apply in certain cases beforehand as well (particularly where the time and expense investment in a shidduch that otherwise would not work if a picture had been sent can subsequently lead to significant bad feelings for having one’s resources “wasted”). Second, for all the value in a picture, it may well be deceiving – in the wrong way. I know this seems counter-intuitive, but the picture may not be an accurate representation of how good the person actually looks, perhaps… Read more »

    from a 26 year old girls prospective
    Guest
    from a 26 year old girls prospective

    I must see a picture before I go out on dates because the guy needs to be physically attractive in my eyes. On a side note, I do of course give it a chance by going out once and after that decide from there. Who knows maybe he looks different in person or I actually just by that first date felt something. You just never know so always consider going out at least once!

    To number 8
    Guest
    To number 8

    The guy has to be attracted to the girl but the girl doesnt have to attracted to the guy? thats not very fair
    its either or. either they both send pictures or no one does

    As I have seen ....
    Guest
    As I have seen ....

    people will look at the picture and come to conclusions BEFORE making a single phone call about the person in question. I think that a picture should be given, but ONLY after the investigations have been made.

    C M Z
    Guest
    C M Z

    Its crazy whats happening here, and to say the least I am Shocked!!!! Pictures are extremely wrong In our system because we are dating only for Marriage!!! Therefore we look into things that Really matter for a marriage that will last a lifetime!! With this in mind lets think about Pictures and Looks, Everyone knows that our Body changes.. gaining weight, having kids etc… therefor if the root of the marriage is this beauty then you are in big trouble when that changes… this also works the other way I had a freind that always said he wants to Marry… Read more »

    To #32
    Guest
    To #32

    In the secular world, people meet in bars, on the street, etc. The only reason why one approaches the other, because at that point it’s the only thing they have to go on, is because of externalities. True, in our world things aren’t perfect, but the author’s point is that we’re too much like the secular world and we should try and change.

    Mother!
    Guest
    Mother!

    I am a mother of a boy and girl of age and I would like to see a picture, just to put a face on a name. I don’t care if she/he is pretty,I just would like to know who we are talking about. I have two kids married, boy and girl, and didn’t see their pictures first, before the ohel. But now, I would like to, again not judge or make a decision, but just to put a face to the name, and know WHO we are talking about. I don’t show the picture to my kids, unless they… Read more »

    #89 said it the best!
    Guest
    #89 said it the best!

    the only reason for looking at a picture, is to make sure you go out with the right person. if you did all the research and everything seems great, and you’re excited, and you’re committed to going out, then looking at a picture is not so bad. but a picture should not be part of the research to figure out if someone’s shayach. pictures aren’t an accurate representation of a person and their personalities, and it can cause false impressions of a person before you actually meet them. you should look at a picture, but only after you know you’re… Read more »

    reply to #64
    Guest
    reply to #64

    who would send a picture of himself not looking put together?

    to#90
    Guest
    to#90

    Times change evidently in this world. Each generation is different is it not? Nothing really stays the same but human interactions and communications with each other.

    To those against a picture
    Guest
    To those against a picture

    To all those who express such strong Chassidic and moral principles against showing pictures; you bring to mind the following updated saying

    Those who argue for Nister bnigleh
    require Nigleh bnister.

    Now figure it out.

    Guess what?!
    Guest
    Guess what?!

    this is a great way to make matches!!!!!
    the people who want a picture and would be happy to show theirs should meet up and the people who dont and think its not chasidish should also meet!!!
    isnt that brilliant 🙂 all these bochurim and girls can be getting married to each other….
    just looking at the comments i can see whos good for who!!

    live and let live
    Guest
    live and let live

    if you want a picture, get it
    if you dont want it, dont get it

    I agree
    Guest
    I agree

    a picture does not tell you who the person is, just how good they can look in a picture
    and who wants to marry a picture?

    Author
    Guest
    Author

    To # 58 Divrei chachomim be’nachas nishmoim. My feelings did not lead me to this conclusion – on the contrary, my emotions do want to see a picture beforehand – rather, it was my thoughts that led me there. You might have come to different conclusions had you not made an emotion-based analysis. As Tanya says, anyone with “moach be’kodkodoi” is capable of moach shalit al ha’lev. If you were not so insecure about your position, you wouldn’t need to resort to ad hominem attacks. I wrote this piece with the hope that my contemporaries would be more receptive to… Read more »

    to 89
    Guest
    to 89

    ya, #8 has issues. notice his BT comment? he’s a snob. and to think he’s been married for many years… *cringe*

    Author
    Guest
    Author

    To # 93 (and others like you) – I apologize for not making the distinction. It would be legitimate for you to look at a picture for that purpose, as well as for learning other details about them – just don’t show the pictures to your kids. My comment was aimed at mothers (or fathers) who, unsolicitedly, make the “looks” judgement for their child.

    good article and well written.
    Guest
    good article and well written.

    I have to say I fully agree. No point at all to see a pic. It’s mostly deceitful.

    To 102
    Guest
    To 102

    Are you a BT? If so, that pretty much sums up your comment. (Kind of like the way the heavier people commenting hereThe point is that BT’s have an unstable balance of life and hashkafa, and act extreme without taking basic common sense into account. I therefore believe that the writer of this article is a son of a BT.

    Why are posters so rude?
    Guest
    Why are posters so rude?

    I know I’m naive, but if someone says he’s a bochur or a 90 year old woman or a mom of a gorgeous girl, I believe them. Please, do we have to have such animosity and nastiness online as well as IRL? I have been called a liar, my gender disputed (huh???) a fraud etc etc & it wasn’t once justified. What made these comments so hurtful instead of ridiculous was the vicious poison and nastiness that went with these crazy challenges. Take people at face value. If COLlive published something from a someone who says he’s a bochur, I’m… Read more »

    to nr 58
    Guest
    to nr 58

    You have obviously a lot of anger in you. Not necessary to take that out on the author. Your arguments also don’t make too much sense. 1)The author just gave HIS opinion based on what he learned from the rebbes teachings. 2) What does chochmas odom.. have to do with a picture. On the contrary: the aura or “bacheintkait” of a person is hard to capture with a pic. 3) Are those weeks of preparations and phone calls all going to waist just because of a pic??? If everything was good enough to continue inquiries for such a long time,… Read more »

    Right on
    Guest
    Right on

    I’m quite impressed by your article, honestly half of it made me laugh, for i can say from experience that pretty much everything you’ve said is true.

    If someone is so affected and can really tell everything from a picture i’d say put off marriage till they’re ready for a marriage more meaningful then a picture.

    And from experience……………… the camera can be deceiving 😉

    Simple
    Guest
    Simple

    U ask, is she pretty? If the person is pretty, u’ll find out, since ppl are usually more effusive if its true. Plus, the rest should be decides once u met the person

    Very seriously
    Guest
    Very seriously

    I am very impressed with your article, is there a way you could let me know who you are, or some contact detail, as you may be a good shidduch for my daughter

    Hey author...
    Guest
    Hey author...

    First of all, I really commend you for writing this article; it was very insightful and fresh. I also enjoyed seeing your rebuttal throughout the length of this vast page of commentary, and needless to say you are very articulate in adequately expressing your opinion. Based on everything that has been said, I would like to add some words of caution: beware of Mrs number 110 , I think she’s going to try and pull a fast one on you! Lol, hatzlocho raba.

    Author
    Guest
    Author

    To number 110 and anyone else with the same idea – the email I used to submit the column is [email protected]
    COL can verify it for you.

    Crazy
    Guest
    Crazy

    I have a big issue, some dates that I have been on. The girl looks in person not really attractive and in the pictures she looks great. How do we deal with this issue?? Can Lubavitch please find me an answer!! because I hate it when this happens.

    Glamour Photo
    Guest
    Glamour Photo

    I spent $200 on a professional, air brushed glamour picture. I look amazing in it and send it with each shidduch profile. It gets me lots of first dates. Then no second date! I am still on the “market”.

    Seriously?
    Guest
    Seriously?

    The Gemara in gitin says that’s its prohibited to Mary a woman you think is ugly, since every time you look at her you will hate and transgress the prohibition of hating a fellow Jew.

    woah
    Guest
    woah

    Picture or not? Who cares. We just had a 94 year old bubby, comment on col. That should be the real story.:)

    Post sem girl
    Guest
    Post sem girl

    It is not right to judge someone by a first glance at a picture. Some people might do this and not want to go out just because of the picture. Maybe it would be right to agree to go out, and then send the picture….

    all these quotes from gemara and shulchan aruch or whatever
    Guest
    all these quotes from gemara and shulchan aruch or whatever

    were clearly around before the concept of pictures. they were probably referencing a time when arranged marriages were the prevalent custom. no one gets married today without looking at someone. i’m not saying the gemara is irrelevant, i just don’t think those gemaras that say you can’t marry ugly people justify pictures before dating. they’re talking about not finding your fiancee attractive. today, you actually go on dates. if after two dates, you still don’t find her attractive, then take the gemaras advice. people need to stop quoting these gemaras because they have absolutely nothing to do with pictures.

    Your mothers
    Guest
    Your mothers

    Not so long ago when we were all a bit less shallow and superficial, a bochur and girl went out and let Hashem do his part.If the shidduch was meant to come into fruition it happened. Many of your mothers who married your fathers wiere average looking.. Your fathers thought that your mothers were and still are the most beautiful in the world. If your fathers were trapped by todays standards, many of them would not have married your mothers. Where would that leave you??

    FFB
    Guest
    FFB

    I find this habit of claiming that the author of certain comments or the article itself is a BT or a son of one, offensive and inappropriate. How low are you that you must discriminate between members of one family especially by putting down those that in truth are HIGHER than you?

    Congrats
    Guest
    Congrats

    May I congradulate the author of this article if only for the common sense expressed but certainly for taking the time to highlight an issue which is one of the core reasons why the Lubavitch community is experiencing a Shidduch crisis at the moment. No one not even the strongest of characters can maintain objectivity once they have passed first impression. And finally as someone who is happily married for almost 20 years and realized on our first [BLIND] date that I was going to marry her I can testify as will some of my freinds who married at about… Read more »

    to #8. FFB
    Guest
    to #8. FFB

    Everyone is a BT, and if your not, Miss Gezhe, and anyone else out there who thinks like that, you are definitely not in the right place. every person has to make a decision at some point in thier life (usually teens or early 20’s..or earlier) about the way they want to live thier life and why. If you cant answer for yourself why you live your life the way you do, other than the fact that your grandfather pished in nevel, you are a fry’ak and I would never want to marry you or your children. My parents are… Read more »

    #58
    Guest
    #58

    no need to be so rude!
    seriously sad !

    Perspective
    Guest
    Perspective

    People look different in pictures and in real life, you can not judge someones look by a one time view from a specific angle. SO many Factor of a persons looks can change depending on the time, angle, lighting, quality…. etc. of the picture you see. If you are going to look at a picture at least see more than two.

    #114
    Guest
    #114

    from #113, please stop wasting our time and money its very annoying when it happens.

    Great writing, but terrible points.
    Guest
    Great writing, but terrible points.

    First of all: Don’t talk for the Rebbe. Second, you bring up the financial issue, without giving a good answer to it. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW EXPENSIVE EXHAUSTING DATING IS! Some of us have not more money to spend! You bring up how expensive the wedding is as proof to your point. To the contrary, how can we pay for the wedding if we’ve spent thousands on pointless dating. YES POINTLESS! I’m gone on dates without seeing photos, only to know 30 seconds in that I’ve just wasted time and money. Additionally, she will be just as embarrassed, when… Read more »

    whoa.
    Guest
    whoa.

    this whole thing is just cracking me up.

    To number 126
    Guest
    To number 126

    In defense of the author, he isn’t talking for the Rebbe, he is merely expressing his opinions based on what he has gleaned from the Rebbes teachings. There is a big difference, and if I recall seeing correctly the author himself said so. Then, in regard to your next issue you take umbrage with, the author most definitely conceded to that point, as evidenced in particular by what he said at the very end of his article, namely, that as a bochur not living in NY he also has to put up with the travel expenses and so on. So… Read more »

    A Real Shidduch Crisis!!
    Guest
    A Real Shidduch Crisis!!

    Let us all pay a bit more attentionto the bigger “PICTURE”.
    Peronality or other ways of showing Affection can attract two opposites no matter how they look.
    Marriage is not a Fantasy lets get that cleared up for all the fussy people out there.

    To # 127
    Guest
    To # 127

    I know, right? All these people are mad for nothing. They’re making a big deal out of nothing!!

    # 53 and the author
    Guest
    # 53 and the author

    should totally go out!

    i think
    Guest
    i think

    there should be a group picture. that will solve all the problems
    one huge picture for all the singles!

    TO EVERYONE
    Guest
    TO EVERYONE

    Listen, there are two different ways of thinking :
    1) picture is not important, you should wait for the actual date and see with your own eyes, also bacause a person changes is base of their middos
    2) of course you need a picture!
    Why spend so much money if you don’t even know how the person looks and maybe you just waisted you money because that person is so not you style.
    That’s it, in short.

    To #128 from #126
    Guest
    To #128 from #126

    When you talk about “the Rebbe would approve of”, YOU ARE TALKING FOR THE REBBE!
    Regarding the financial issues, even local dates are very expensive! Car rental, gas, bill, parking etc. It adds up. (never mind the emotionally exhausting part of it.)
    I am belittling his opinions, because when he gets on his high moral horse (I’m sure he is just looking for a date.) he is belittling the rest of us.

    134
    Guest
    134

    What’s wrong with “talking for the rebbe”? He gave us many teachings for us to know what to do lemaiseh, and it’s kind of pointless if we just hem and haw and convince ourselves we can’t figure out what the rebbe would want from us in a certain situation. But this is really a shulchan aruch issue. Like other commentors said, you fulfill your obligation to see her when you go on a date, and other than that why is it any different from stam looking at a picture of a woman which is assur al pi shulchan aruch?

    Kids these days
    Guest
    Kids these days

    Why do they have to rent a fancy car and go to fancy restaurants in Manhattan to impress a girl? Just take the train and go to a lounge or somewhere that doesn’t cost money. Think about how much you waste on girls you didn’t even marry!

    To number 134
    Guest
    To number 134

    He didn’t sound like he’s on his high horse. It sounds like he’s trying to persuade you to do something he thinks is for your own good; not impose something on you.

    To number 134
    Guest
    To number 134

    Once again, feel free to disagree, but once again, you’re yelling at the wall. The Rebbe perspective issue was already addressed. The author brought HIS opinion to the table, which incidentally is something that clearly you do not have a problem with doing, albeit not tolerating others opinions. Evidently you disagree, but once again I fail to detect any flaw in the manner in which he voices himself in this regard. The most desirable path a Chossid can follow is the path of the Rebbe, and nothing that was said on the authors part in any way contradicts that. Quite… Read more »

    To #135/7/8
    Guest
    To #135/7/8

    What’s wrong with talking for the Rebbe, is when you do so belittling others, when you can’t even be sure you’re right. He clearly trivializes the expense of local dating. I will take his opinions once he spends weeks looking into a girl, hundreds on the date, and is ABSOLUTELY SURE 30 seconds into the date that it won’t work. This happened to me, when I went on a ‘blind’ date. I was sure that she wasn’t for me, not because she wasn’t a barbie, because I was repulsed by her looks. There was no way I’d have dated her… Read more »

    Just to clarify
    Guest
    Just to clarify

    Number 128 is number 138

    To 139
    Guest
    To 139

    I don’t think that the author was intentionally trying to insult or put down anyone. Take his opinion or leave it, and pretty much come out of it with the two options that number 133 said. It’s that simple, and very much subjective.

    AGREE WITH #125
    Guest
    AGREE WITH #125

    HUUUUUGE WASTE OF MONEY!!!!!!!
    #114 CEASE AND DESIST IMMEDIATELY!

    a chossid
    Guest
    a chossid

    Just One Question To The Commenter’s : Is It Chassidish To Send A Picture To A Prospective Shiduch Inquiry ?
    When I Send My Picture I Feel Like A Free For All ..i Am Sending My Picture To someone I Dont Even Know..
    Please Answer.

    mother
    Guest
    mother

    I have on many occasions have had to argue with shadchonim because I rejected the idea of sending pictures. I also feel strongly that 1] it is not tznisdik because you cannot control who will be viewing it. Did the BR yearbooks do away with photos for this reason? 2]the judgement is often made by the parent/ mother as to whether she likes the looks 3] a picture is not always accurate because it is often one at a wedding or well made up 4] lacking animation one passes judgement only on superficiality, no we are not Shlomo HaMelech or… Read more »

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