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Sunday, 17 Av, 5779
  |  August 18, 2019
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    Time For Women’s Beis Hashoeva?

    From the COLlive inbox: Space, mechitza and security are needed to allow a Simchas Beis Hashoeva for women in Crown Heights. Full Story

    L’Chaim: Raskin – Holtzberg

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    a thought
    Guest
    a thought

    a gute voch!
    it could b a nice thing for doing 1-2 nights. but for me, to come all the way from israel, it gives me strength for the whole year to see the men dancing, especially when i watch the videos i did from those dancing. i think it even said in one of the midrashim, that one of the neviim got Ruach Hakodesh from simchat beit hashoeva.
    so again, it can b nice and happy to dance for some hours but the man dancing r very special- time to ask all the brachoss!

    Agree
    Guest
    Agree

    I had the same thought not only about Simchas Beis Hashoeva, but also about Simchas Torah. The women can dance in the women’s section without the Torah.

    Not sure what the point is in just watching.

    Your'e not the first one...Rebbe speaks about this in sicha!!
    Guest
    Your'e not the first one...Rebbe speaks about this in sicha!!

    Rebbe explains why we need it. See the pamphlet “A Call To Action. I think the Rebbe said so in 5749. I can look it up if you want. Thanks for causing me to share! I have only sisters, so I was excited to see it.
    A bochur. To find source you can email me, if COL will let…[email protected]

    I agree
    Guest
    I agree

    I agree, though I think for many practical reasons it should be indoors.

    yes yes!
    Guest
    yes yes!

    It should be tried for one night. The women who have become cintent with this bc they are forced to dont know what theyre missing. We need to be part of enjoy the celebration as well. Men, how would you feel if you couldnt be part, just watch?

    Women in the street
    Guest
    Women in the street

    Don’t sound to me too tznius for women to dance in st

    this is how it was in the Beis Hamikdash
    Guest
    this is how it was in the Beis Hamikdash

    This is the way it was in the Beis Hamikdash!!!

    no problem for women to rent a hall and have an evening of dance. that would be wonderful. The official Simchas Beis Hashoeiva is the exact way it was in the Beis Hamikdash

    Learn rebbe sichos
    Guest
    Learn rebbe sichos

    Rebbe clearly says men dance woman watch and clap…. gives koach to men to dance…..
    Also tahaluchos…. rebbe said ONLY MEN!!!

    One of the inyanim that the besht instituted is that chassidim do lifnin meshuras hadin

    כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה
    Guest
    כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה

    if there is a demand, woman can arrange an evening of dance. rent a large, beautiful hall and do it it a Tzinius way.

    nobody seems too concerned
    Guest
    nobody seems too concerned

    if a man walks/sees behind the mechitza at a wedding. it is not such a big deal, and would actually enhance tzniyus and remove a lot of the pritzus that now happens.

    I Like it!!
    Guest
    I Like it!!

    The Rebbe held the women in very high regard!! We can permeate that simcha into our lives too! Please can we try it ?

    Old news
    Guest
    Old news

    No one ever said it was a problem just organise it and everyone should be fine. May I suggest that instead of in the street the women dance in a hall for example beis Rivkah lefferts. They can get a women to provide the music and make it a real feminine atmosphere. Sounds to complicated making it on the street.

    it sounds weird
    Guest
    it sounds weird

    And what about people in Montgomery looking through their windows? looking at the women… it will have to be a very tall mechitza.

    yes
    Guest
    yes

    women love to be happy during yom tov too.

    I live on Montgomery
    Guest
    I live on Montgomery

    You are suggesting to have it in front of my house on Montgomery between Kingston and Albany or Brooklyn??!! Are you CRAZY?? My children need to get to sleep!! I need to get to sleep!!! Here is MY idea: Have it in front of YOUR house!!!

    to agree
    Guest
    to agree

    What is the point to dance by yourself? from time immemorial women stayed behing mechitz and watched men dancing on simchas torah,etc. NOBODY felt left out- it is only today that we were given this irrelevant feeling of inferiority if we werent copying the men EXACTLY! doing EXACTLY what theyre doing etc..why the need to copy???

    I can see an evening event in Bais Rivka with dancing for women etc..but it MUST be in the street? who says? Enjoy your own power- stop looking to copy men to attain spiritual heights..

    so corrupt!
    Guest
    so corrupt!

    why do we always think we need to do what the men are doing? Bothers you to watch? Stay home!

    great idea
    Guest
    great idea

    There was a womens only Simchas Beis this year on wednesday night of chol hamoed. Would be great to see it grow next year. It was organized by Aliya Girls

    women dance!
    Guest
    women dance!

    The women should absolutely have the choice to dance in a proper Tznius location. I’d prefer near the music.

    Very good idea
    Guest
    Very good idea

    But… I feel that for some like myself and comment #1 simchas beis hashoiva iS what gives Me Chayus for the whole year

    Seperate
    Guest
    Seperate

    There can be a seperate program special for women in Oheli Torah wedding hall
    It’s out of the way.
    If it were to be done on Lubavitch yeshiva Crown ST, people will have an issue walking by and hearing women singing…..

    In beis HaMikdash the women also watched
    Guest
    In beis HaMikdash the women also watched

    I also think that in a public open place, no matter what security you would use, it can result in more un-tznius. In Idea its good but in practice its complicated. but why not arrange at the nearby lubavitch yeshiva hall?

    YES ITS ABOUT TIME
    Guest
    YES ITS ABOUT TIME

    BH
    BSD

    my wife is a professional singer and teaches voice,..and I’ve been urging her to speak to a few important people about it
    this year…and got stunned looks…
    Let’s get a large indoor halls,or even a few…only women allowed…with live female singers ..sooo many women have great HASHEM gifted voices ,and dancers…like at kreeyas YAM suf with Miriam..
    ITS LONG OVERDUE…AND THE WOMEN AND GIRLS WOULD LOVE IT

    What ever
    Guest
    What ever

    You bringing a good point but for some reason
    All the ppl who are fighting for women’s rights are usealy the sameone who are trying to find all the loopyin halacha and mostly those people dont have yerias shamoim

    You have to remember whats the role of a women and realize that tsniut its only in clothing but also and mostly in the behavior

    FYI there’s SB for women at ohaeli torah
    Not all night but you should be happy already

    Im sure if you go to satmar they will treat you better

    You can't fool me......
    Guest
    You can't fool me......

    I notice this article is authored “by Miriam” (no last name). From the passionate complaint and heartfelt suggestion – i.e. dancing for women at Simchas Beis HaShoeva – something tells me – darling Miriam HaNevia – you yourself submitted the article! – I know dearest Miriam you have a thing with water and dancing (and yes – singing!) and moreover you’ve got sole holdings of “Desert Wells Unlimited”! Did you really think I would not figure it all out even if you deliberately avoided mentioning the tamborines?! Still you managed to hide it all real well with your familiarity and… Read more »

    people living on montgomery st.
    Guest
    people living on montgomery st.

    your mechitza will block them too?
    com’on – be realistic

    take it indoors
    Guest
    take it indoors

    Expanding everything to Montgomery Street will just mean that not only will people on Kingston Avenue not be able to sleep including their babies stay up all night, but now Montgomery Street will suffer too.

    Frankly I am shocked that this is still ongoing on Kingston Avenue. Where is the compassion for the many families who have to put up with something loud music all night long 4 days in a row?

    The whole enterprise should be indoors. It’s unfair to make so many families suffer, Jewish and non Jewish, think about it.

    I agree
    Guest
    I agree

    Rabbanim are supposed to make our lives more easy amd enjoyable while staying within the parameters of halacha. If we can dance at wedding we can dance on street in an ENCLOSED area. Unless there is a problem halachically or in the spirit of halacha this should be allowed

    Finally!
    Guest
    Finally!

    Couldn’t agree more, let’s make it happen!

    Nice idea but in a rented hall!
    Guest
    Nice idea but in a rented hall!

    Im a woman and ive thought of this being in Bais Rivka lefferts, or Oholei Torah, with a women band, not on the street- too strange.

    Additional opinion
    Guest
    Additional opinion

    I wish someone can arrange bleachers for the women. It would make it so much more comfortable, and less fights. I’m not sure who to speak to, but if anyone has connections, please try to arrange this for next year. Thank you!

    Suggestion not exactly..
    Guest
    Suggestion not exactly..

    People live on Montgomery st. Including men and bochurim. Should they not be allowed to go home because women will be dancing in the street?

    A better solution needs to be found. I think a hall with music especially for the women so they can dance freely is even better.

    All the babies sleeping on Montgomery street
    Guest
    All the babies sleeping on Montgomery street

    It’s not fair to take away sleep from תנוקות של בת רבן sleep is a necessary , dancing can be held in pho lei Torah ball room

    Disagree
    Guest
    Disagree

    It sounds nice and fun but i dont think it will for long. The current simchas beis hashoeva started with dancing and is now another place we need to avoid tuma, like in certain places where boys and girls are acting inappropiately. I believe it will soon be another place for girls to feel self-conscious, for the people to judge those less tznius than them and for shaming. If a girl wants to dance she can arrange a school or friends event in a shul or hall

    Agree
    Guest
    Agree

    Put the band between the two (Cwn Hghts would prob prefer them facing the men’s section), but speakers in the Women’s section also- not difficult to do, higher mechitza and that’s the idea

    Is this true?
    Guest
    Is this true?

    I was told before gimmel Tammuz that the Rebbe wanted to women to dance and often women’s areas were set up on rooftops of Kingston until the men discovered them and kicked them off.

    I second that I don’t feel comfortable going to Simchas Bais hashuava anymore due to the men in the women’s section – no seating (some of us are getting old – have health problems- or are pregnant) and the cough! Cough! Smoking from men

    Wouldn’t setting up tents for women’s dancing with bouncers to keep men out work?

    MORE SPEAKERS??? HORRORS!!!!!
    Guest
    MORE SPEAKERS??? HORRORS!!!!!

    The volume as it is reaches to Albany and Brooklyn Aves! Please don’t increase the suffering of those of us who provide the clean beds and fresh meals for all the guests! We need to get some rest so that when you get back from the dancing there’s food for you, dear guests!

    As it happens...
    Guest
    As it happens...

    I’ve heard complaints from many, many women about this topic.
    The music is fun and everyone wants to dance!
    Dancing is a great expression of joy, and why shouldn’t we be able to do it too?
    Plus, there are some pretty great ideas wriiten above.
    THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS.

    Cali Shaliach
    Guest
    Cali Shaliach

    I believe it was in California when the women wanted to have their own Hakofos in a separate room. If I recall correctly The Rebbe answered “This is how the conservative movement started”.

    to #3
    Guest
    to #3

    please post sicha your referring to, and some points from the sicha

    where is the preacticality??
    Guest
    where is the preacticality??

    so whats coming next year?
    ” op-ed. the music was to loud / the music was not good enough” !?
    stop complaining and be happy with what you can get!!

    who needs dancing?
    Guest
    who needs dancing?

    as long as we have unlimited silly string?

    From a different perspective
    Guest
    From a different perspective

    Ladies, let’s start being proud to be women, instead of wanting to be like the men.
    Women=modest, refined, nurturing, bringing happiness into the home and house, not needing to conquer the outdoors.
    I’m all for women dancing, and expressing their joy, but let’s do it in a womanly fashion — in a refined, genteel, womanly way — indoors, in a private setting. Why the necessity to be on the streets, like the men???
    Just my thoughts ….

    tent
    Guest
    tent

    I think if it would be done in a fully closed tent that would be perfectly tzneisdik

    all this dancing in the street
    Guest
    all this dancing in the street

    I don’t know why simchas b.h. has been going on this long on Montgomery Street, It is so hard to sleep and get up in the morning to go to work, it is not fair for people that are trying to sleep, and I don’t know why they start with the music at 10pm and then when the music stops they have people dancing in the sidewalks till 7am, they should have it in a hall or come up with a better solution, and now you are talking about having women dancing in the street, its enough that a lot… Read more »

    Suggestion
    Guest
    Suggestion

    The premise is a correct one
    Girls and women should also feel the joy of dancing
    I recall that for many years BethRivkah High School organized dancing in the Lefferts building for girls one of the nights
    Hundreds of girls would come and dance as a live band played
    That kind of arrangement would be the best

    to #36
    Guest
    to #36

    Excellent, practical idea – but only for one night. A tent has to be put up properly – by the company rented from – and you can’t close the street to traffic during the day. Your idea of a tent solves all the problems people brought up about men living on Montgomery and people watching from their windows. RE: the music – for one night, it should be manageable – up to a decent hour.

    To all the people complain that the music is too loud
    Guest
    To all the people complain that the music is too loud

    I’m shocked to see so many people suggesting that simchas beis should be done indoors and that there’s no reason to still be doing it in the street. Umm, are you a lubavitcher chassid or not? Our Rebbe instituted simchas beis specifically to be done in the street. Not to mention that the music has gotten increasingly lower and unfortunately affected the quality of the dancing.

    I hate change
    Guest
    I hate change

    And I can’t stand women wanting to be like men! Us women belong at home , looking after our family , guests with our girls at our side ! Us ‘girls’ go to the SB for abit , watch , say hi to our friends then back to the kitchen , music , singing and dancing whilst we cook , bake and clean up in preparation for the next round of meals and guests. We love this and don’t want it any other way!

    Hmmmm....
    Guest
    Hmmmm....

    As a visitor to Crown Heights most years for Sukkos, after having lived there for many years, the dancing at night is not what it was meant to be when it started nearly 35 years ago! There is no tznius in the last few years, the commercialization is at it’s worst!!! It has become a money making deal! Kol Tuv, hot dogs, ice cream, pop corn, and all the light up toys!!! It feels as if the men are standing more on the women’s side then they are in their areas and they have more room than the women!!! I… Read more »

    really simple
    Guest
    really simple

    if the Rebbe said he was OK with it then don’t worry about what others will say and just do it!

    No pictures of women dancing on COL
    Guest
    No pictures of women dancing on COL

    indoor dancing sounds like a great idea, but please don’t allow COL to post pictures online

    Zalmy Schapiro
    Guest
    Zalmy Schapiro

    # 49 I understand your point but they can’t be in the house all night and wait for the husband to come home from Simchas Bais Hashoeiva I do think that they should also have a women’s program For Simchas Bais Hashoeiva they have their rights too have some fun I think we should do they should make a women’s program from 6 p.m. till 9 p.m. or you could change schedules for example the music starts at 10 p.m. in Kingston Avenue Right women’s program should start from 10 p.m. till 11:30 second one should be from 12 to… Read more »

    DO IT RIGHT
    Guest
    DO IT RIGHT

    LOVE THE IDEA OF THE LUBAVITCH YESHIVAH ON CROWN STREET
    NOT FAR FROM KINGSTON AVENUE
    CLOSED QUARTERS
    ONE OR TWO NIGHTS OF THE TIME

    It's a religious event
    Guest
    It's a religious event

    Simchas bais hashoeva is a religious event and should be treated as such.

    Maybe I'm Missing Something here....
    Guest
    Maybe I'm Missing Something here....

    I love to sing and dance like the rest of the women, so that is not the issue for me. I just don’t feel comfortable watching men, that I am not related to….dance. So yes, I do stay home!

    19 year old
    Guest
    19 year old

    Who will be there to encourage the men to dance?
    We need to remember what the womens role is.
    Yes it would be nice, but it was never an Inyan for women to dance during Simchas Bais. Maybe one night a year bet 10 and 12 in a hall (separate for post sem and older women)
    I personally wouldn’t come because I love to watch the chassidim dancing with such simcha till the morning, rain or shine. It GIVES me energy!!

    Welcome.
    Guest
    Welcome.

    After giving this thought… A Kaloh’s hair may remain uncovered during her wedding. A Torah Wedding is a Special time and with a Chosson and Kaloh where there is unusual protection… Women usher in Geuloh by watching and clapping for Simchas Beis HaShoeivoh. In Yerusholayim at the Beis HaMikdosh Most Righteous Torah Scholars dance and The Nation looks on and claps… HKB”H; Most Righteous Torah Scholars: Masculinity; dance. Kinesess Yisroel; The Nation: Femininity; watch and clap. When masculine dance and feminine watch and clap Simchas Beis Hashoeivoh is embodied. When the feminine seeks to embody the masculine place this signifies… Read more »

    Woman dancing in Reshus Harabim= Pritzus
    Guest
    Woman dancing in Reshus Harabim= Pritzus

    Kol kvuda bas melech penima. In general a woman is suppose to avoid the streets and stay indoors. We see from our matriarch Sarah and all other righteous woman through out history. The idea of having woman dancing in the streets is Pritzus whether a man can see them or not. By a wedding it is indoors.

    I'm the Beis hamikdosh they watched
    Guest
    I'm the Beis hamikdosh they watched

    The whole concept of simchas Beis hashoeiva is to portray the joy and event in the Beis hamikdash. Over there te woman watched, even tough there could have been a way to make them dance. So too today that’s whatvis done

    The problem is the crates!!!
    Guest
    The problem is the crates!!!

    Additionally we have to set up a system that crates can only be put at the end, not in front of the fences!!!! What these girls do is set up their crates right in front and block everyone!! A crate makes you much higher, so go to the back! We couldnt even see anything and they didnt even let us get through in front of them! And once I did but there was barely any room and I was so pushed and no air to breath while the girls on the crates on top of us and they couldnt move… Read more »

    Spot on
    Guest
    Spot on

    This article is spot on. I agree with most commenters that the dancing should be indoors, but women should certainly dance and not stand and watch the men dance. Do you stand and watch other people dance at a wedding or a Bar Mitzvah?

    Some People Make No Sense!
    Guest
    Some People Make No Sense!

    I see a bunch of comments that claim the woman’s place is on the sideline, or in the kitchen cooking for the men. This type of indoctrinated sexism and misogyny is pethatic to say the least. there is no precedent in Judaism for this attitude. this status quo comes from archaic times where the oppression of woman as a gender was rampant and regular …as was slavery, discrimination etc. etc. People. let’s rise with the times. there is absolutely no Rabbi who can claim that basic civil rights for woman is against Judaism, as well as this notion of Woman… Read more »

    I agree
    Guest
    I agree

    It’s nice to watch the men dance, but as a lady, I’d LOVE to express myself too and dance and feel the unity and simcha

    Hakhel Mega Event
    Guest
    Hakhel Mega Event

    The organizers of the Hakhel event were considering making a women’s section for dancing, but the Rabbonim vetoed the idea.

    Yep
    Guest
    Yep

    I agree with 61. The crates are lined so high and if ur not 6feet tall its hard foryou to enjoy SIMCHAS Bais HASHOEVA

    15 year old
    Guest
    15 year old

    I must say that this does bring about a good point but something about it just doesn’t seem right…It was never one of the Rebbes inyanim for the women to dance as well and in the Torah it states very clearly that men and women are different and they both play different roles in life. It would defiantly be nice maybe to have a program in a certain dance hall or even at someones house but for sure not on the streets and in general women dancing out in the open isn’t very aidle!

    Very ambivalent
    Guest
    Very ambivalent

    I have very mixed feelings about this. I’m a woman who enjoys watching the men. I already did the imitative thing long ago; sorry, but I outgrew it. The male role is to be mashpiah; the female to be mekabel. Nevertheless, I understand some women wanting their own celebration. Maybe a private gathering, as suggested above — in someone’s home or rented hall, with a female band or singer. And for a limited time — 2 hrs., perhaps. I might go. Or I might not. At least women have some options. Personally, I find the men’s music dull & monotonous,… Read more »

    All boils down to Mashpia and Mekabel...
    Guest
    All boils down to Mashpia and Mekabel...

    I’m a women too like above poster who gains such a chayus from watching. I think that is feminine. Dancing doesn’t do it for me. (by a wedding it does somehow. Somehow it’s another accomplishment where you are dancing to bring joy to the Kallah). Simchas beis Hashoeiva, Simchas Torah we all celebrate. The men celebrate in an outward expressive way and the women are being Mekabel the atmosphere and celebrating in a huge way but internally, in a pnimiusdike way. I wouldn’t be inspired dancing with a bunch of women somehow when the purpose isn’t to be mesameach anyone… Read more »

    Bas Melech
    Guest
    Bas Melech

    The Rebbe wanted the MEN to dance in the streets. That’s a man’s role – to conquer the word. Our Rebbe always encouraged the women and girls to participate – off to one side – by clapping. Not dancing, Not singing. Not saying Kiddush Levana. At kids rallies, even when little girls came to farbregen and wanted to sing with Tatty, the Rebbe send messages to them to clap. The young ladies in Biblical times only danced in public on Tu b’Av and Yom Kippur – as these are days when we are free of sin and therefore there was… Read more »

    A human
    Guest
    A human

    A great deal too many of you apparently didn’t read the article in its entirety. It explicitly deals with the “but-in-the-times-of-the-Bais-Hamikdosh” argument.
    And for those of you saying “fine, dance. But do it somewhere else” that’s not really in the spirit of achdus. If it doesn’t transgress any halacha, then your opposition to it is a personal one. The community Simchas beis hashoeiva should include ALL members of the community, including the female ones.

    great idea
    Guest
    great idea

    Thank you!! Finally, I would love to have the opportunity to dance

    Shocked!
    Guest
    Shocked!

    I’m SHOCKED TO SAY THE LEAST! The Rebbe was an Ish Halacha and was so makpid that we shouldn’t trangress hilchos tznius that he cancelled various programs* so that it shouldn’t come to mingling or kol b’isha. How can we misconstrue the Rebbe’s holy projects and make it fit the 2015 morals? If the Rebbe would have felt it appropriate He would have instituted it. Women want to dance? Fine. But everything has its time and PLACE. *Learn the Rebbe’s Sichos and Igros. Find out about schools & shluchim who needed to change their plans or eliminate them totally; all… Read more »

    in answer to 73
    Guest
    in answer to 73

    Your points are all true. We must be talking about different things though. Nobody is saying that we should have mixed dancing or kol isha. You are mistaken in thinking that dancing for women will inevitably lead to being oiver on clear halacha. The article clearly specifies taking steps to ensure that it is done in the most tznius manner.
    In fact, even the rabbonim can’t claim that it transgressed halacha. The issue is all about perceived problems and antiquated notions about how women should behave.

    Women's events
    Guest
    Women's events

    I think it’s a great idea for there to be a separate space for women’s dancing for Simchas Beis Hashoeva in an indoor location. This can be offered in addition to the space on Kingston Ave so women can have a choice of where to attend. I think we should be encouraging events where women can express themselves in the performance of Mitzvos besides watching the men. There is no reason why this cannot be achieved with the highest standard of Tznius without compromising any Halacha or community practice. I also think the separate women’s events should be hosted and… Read more »

    ¿"improve"?
    Guest
    ¿"improve"?

    May we choose to focus and concentrate only on important and meaningfull moments on our day (including Iom Tov)

    You Underestimate
    Guest
    You Underestimate

    …the power of tradition! Start making this demand and you will end up with a weakening of the family. Yes, many of us enjoy watching the men dance…ESPECIALLY if you are married and see your family there! But something tells me this Miriam is dragging her feet about marriage…so are the young men…Yes, we should have an event for women, one night, in a building, but to paint it ina polarizing way is STUPID.

    X