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Thursday, 17 Nisan, 5784
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Tiers in Shidduchim Isn’t the Issue; It’s the Disillusionment

From the COLlive inbox: “While it's essential to acknowledge that people have varying priorities, the real issue lies in the communication between parents and their children regarding Shidduchim.” Full Story

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True Article But A Fantasy
July 16, 2023 11:34 pm

At the end of the day, nothing is going to change.

Can you imagine the alter rebbe allowed his child to marry a daughter of a butcher who was a “nobody” “tier 3” at best. You’d never find that with parents today.

When it’s the right one it works
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 16, 2023 11:57 pm

People see and hear what they need for the shidduch to happen

When it’s the right thing it works
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 12:02 am

The parents and child hear whatever they need to hear for the shidduch to take place

Ty for message
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 10:04 am

Yeah, imagine having Terach or Besuel as a mechuten! Unthinkable, right?! 🙂
And generations after Moishe Rabeinu, his descendants were clergy to avoideh zorah.
While it may be comfortable and/or normal to marry someone from a similar background, it is no guarantee for future generations.

Well
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 10:21 am

With attitudes like yours definitely nothing will change

Not necessarily true
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 10:33 am

Rebbetzin Sheina’s father was a poor Melamed and the AR took his daughter for his son who later became the Mitler Rebbe.

anon
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 11:36 am

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5906604/jewish/The-Devoted-Husband.htm

Zohar
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 11:44 am

As they set out from their place above, each soul is male and female as one. Only as they descend to this world do they part, each to its own side. And then it is the One Above who unites them again. This is His exclusive domain, for He alone knows which soul belongs to which and how they must reunite.

– Zohar (Book I, 85b)

Emes!
Reply to  Zohar
July 17, 2023 4:43 pm

Absolutely! Waiting for someone to say that in all the articles and comments.

Wrong
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 6:12 pm

Bringing an example from Bais Harav is ridiculous since Bais Harav has different Neshamos that can’t marry anyone.

As for Yichus, the Rebbe never spoke that way, quite the contrary. Wrong again.

which post are you responding to?
Reply to  Wrong
July 18, 2023 1:13 pm

I don’t understand what you said

but both the Zohar quote and the chabad link are directly from chabad.org

yup
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 17, 2023 9:08 pm

100%

Please think before you write
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 18, 2023 12:59 pm

Wow. “The daughter of a butcher!??” I hope none of our community butchers can identify you dear writer, as you patronise their establishments. Only kindness matters….

Correction
Reply to  True Article But A Fantasy
July 20, 2023 8:01 pm

The story is told that a butcher wanted the son of the Alter Rebbe as
a son in law but that never happened. Please check before writing
misinformation!

Okay Nexttt
July 17, 2023 12:22 am

Enough with the shidduch articles

May everyone find their true bashert at the right time with clarity 🙂

Day dreaming
July 17, 2023 12:27 am

‘There is no denying that family background and last names can hold significance for some people. Just as height or other physical attributes might matter to others, these preferences make every individual unique.’ You cannot so flippantly equate yichus with physical attributes. Yichus is something that directly relates to a certain emotional, historical, and social heritage/status that families do everything to protect, and often by all means necessary, which can often mean discounting the actual characteristics, attributes and values a person seeks/requires (this disconnect you talk about). As others have said, nothing is going to change, because physical attributes are… Read more »

Shira
Reply to  Day dreaming
July 17, 2023 8:17 am

The author is apparently unfamiliar with the gemora in Tanis 31

Reread the article
Reply to  Day dreaming
July 17, 2023 9:27 am

You completely missed the point. The author is trying to coax parents to discuss shiduchim with their kids more. If the single values physical attributes above yichus, you and I might think that’s ridiculous but we’re not the ones in the parsha and the live with this priority.

Nevertheless
Reply to  Reread the article
July 17, 2023 10:07 am

The author is asking parents to value what their kids want more, I agree with you, and I contend that this is unrealistic. These articles come and go all the time, and all fail for the same reason. For the bulk of shidduchim, parent’s are the gatekeepers, and this is for good reason. Taking into account a single’s preferences, sure, this is something that most often takes place, but the author specifically calls out the problem that ‘arises when parents and their children are not on the same page regarding what constitutes a “tier 1” or “tier 2” candidate, especially… Read more »

Kkkkk
Reply to  Nevertheless
July 17, 2023 11:10 pm

“when what is practically being asked is for parents to stop gatekeeping their yichus, which is a completely different conversation”

That conversation was the previous OP that this one is a response.

Your final paragraph is spot on. Parents can save themselves alot of pain if they reflect on this OP-ed. If they ignore their single childs’s priorities in the greatest decision of the child’s life, they do so at their own peril.

height
Reply to  Day dreaming
July 17, 2023 11:05 am

height should not be a factor for anyone at all ever.

If someone cares about that, they really need to do teshuvah

Attraction
Reply to  height
July 17, 2023 11:36 am

Your supposed to be attracted to your significant other if height matters then it’s okay for that to matter

It is what you make of it
Reply to  Day dreaming
July 17, 2023 6:07 pm

When a father asked the Rebbe that he was hesitating about a shidduch idea for his daughter since the bochur didn’t have yichus, the Rebbe responded to him that would you not have taken Avraham for a son in law since his father Terach worshipped idols?! Unless you think the Rebbe was just posturing and speaking for the media? I’m not saying that yichus or family status should be completely out of the equation, but if you don’t think there’s too much emphasis on it which has more to do with “kavod” than whatever gemara or righteous reason they might… Read more »

Yes
July 17, 2023 12:29 am

I think there would be a lot more engagements if mothers weren’t making all the decisions for their sons. Think about it. We could be celebrating their lchaim if you let them have a say.

Always get your moms opinion
Reply to  Yes
July 17, 2023 1:29 am

Read rebbes letter! It’s good to know not saying he has to listen thought

Of course
Reply to  Always get your moms opinion
July 17, 2023 1:13 pm

Communication is key just like the article is saying. But some mothers are not communicating anything to their sons

Shidduchim
Reply to  Yes
July 17, 2023 6:42 am

Without mother’s investigating thoroughly
There’d be a lot more divorces

Sorry
Reply to  Shidduchim
July 17, 2023 9:44 am

You sound like you have mommy issues. The so called investigations have nothing to do with reality but the mother’s ego

You mean...
Reply to  Shidduchim
July 17, 2023 11:28 am

The mother herself is causing the divorce?! There are so many rebbetzins in the community that non of them are willing to be like Yocheved who trusted in her son Moshe rabbeinu or Rivka Emeinu who trusted her son Yaakov Avinu?! Its about time these rebbetzins OBEY the Torah that Hashem said to man “these your parents house and become one with your wife.” You dont trust in Hashem?

Maybe
Reply to  Shidduchim
July 17, 2023 11:31 am

And a lot more non-divorce

Um...
July 17, 2023 12:38 am

Communication between parents and children is like communication between husband and wife. I’ll speak direct: can you confront your wife or she decides for you, in her own way?
It’s called the mother issue that men just “happen” to not want to discuss or face. Nothing what to do with young adults who want their lives and decided their lives but are being held back and men are of no support to stop this! Unbelievable.

MRS PERL ARBOR
July 17, 2023 5:49 am
Possible solution
July 17, 2023 7:35 am

Maybe if the system wasn’t so demanding of money, asking for a prepay and payments for each date turned suggestion , I hope the list won’t go on, and go back to viewing a Shiduch as a Chesed, maybe that can make a difference. There’s a position that a messenger has between Hashem and the potential matches; why should it be done for MONEY?. I’m not saying I don’t think the process is valuable enough to involve ANY money, I do think though, that it should most definitely not be the reason to make a Shiduch.

Actually…
Reply to  Possible solution
July 17, 2023 9:29 am

Only some shadchan/its do that so they can have a system of compensation for so much effort. And that’s their choice. Most shadchan/its put in quite a lot of time and work and are compensated only if there is a match— ends up not being worth it financially so I’m grateful they still try. The suggest a shidduch initiatives are helpful because then there’s a lot of volunteer manpower. Lots of people are volunteering to do part of a shadchan/it’s work, and more often from a point of view of knowing the singles or at least one side of a… Read more »

anon
Reply to  Actually…
July 17, 2023 11:08 am

shidduchim is not for making money. it is for reconnecting 2 parts of 1 soul.

Still there’s an inyun to pay shadchans
Reply to  anon
July 17, 2023 6:47 pm

The lofty goal is indeed helping reconnect two parts of one soul. Thanks for mentioning it. The mechanism for that down in this world of tikkun often includes paying a shadchan who takes away time from other ways to make money; or giving a gift to someone who just does it for the mitzvah (often does it less often because busy with making money in ways that aren’t matchmaking). It’s ruchniusdig as you point out, but also the gashmiusdig inyun of paying or rewarding shadchan with a gift is a part of it. See stories of tzaddikim and chassidim, and… Read more »

then why not make it all gift-only
Reply to  Still there’s an inyun to pay shadchans
July 18, 2023 1:14 pm

instead of standard fees

or at the very least allow poor and average people to do gift or free, and for people whom money is not a problem, they will happily gift what they want to gift.

Oh yeah?
Reply to  Possible solution
July 17, 2023 9:43 am

How many shidduchim did you make for free?

Why don’t you tell your doctor/Rov/teacher the same thing – work for free!!

All of this isn't new
July 17, 2023 7:51 am

The gemara says that in 15 av while dancing on the fields, each girl will say to the single guys, to pay attention to what ever was her own good thing/quality and also to not pay attention to what other girls had to offer. You can see there that for some that thing was Yichus, and for others it was something else…

Bravo
July 17, 2023 8:08 am

Those that are saying it will never happen are wrong. It already happens once the single is older. Then the parents wake up and realize they need to let go a bit. By then, rachmono litzlan, the single in the parsha is already so confused and burnt out it takes a few more years of agony. Kudos to Rabbi Yossi. Instead of the old and tired advice given to the singles, this is the first shiduch article that rightfully places the guidance and responsibility with the parents. They are the gatekeepers when it comes to shiduchim and are part and… Read more »

Rather..
Reply to  Bravo
July 17, 2023 10:41 am

..as the singles become older, the parents have less say in the direction they take their lives, regardless of whether or not the parents ‘wake up’.

The bitter truth
July 17, 2023 9:31 am

Whatever words you use (tiers, caste, othering, etc.) when a couple face serious fissures in their relationship because they are mismatched in every other way EXCEPT social class, no amount of Yichus is going to be a salve for THAT pain and loneliness.

This topic
July 17, 2023 3:19 pm

We can compile a book with all of these op-Ed’s on shidduchim…

Just saying
July 17, 2023 8:14 pm

Just saying that this was not the way stuff were done in the heim. Actually then the singles had even less of a say! And they married and lived happily ever after…
There are still communities out there who do not give the single as much of a say as we do and look at their divorece rates! They are much less.
So no, this is not the solution; maybe the solution is to give the singles less of say!

I say this.
July 17, 2023 11:36 pm

It’s starts of with the Boy/Girl.

The 2 Families.

The (4) parents.

And who are the Sibling’s.

That’s the main thing what’s need to be looked in.

It can’t just be

THE BOY/GIRL and that’s it.
It should never be that way. EVER!!!
Parents or no parents/Shiduchim, or friends, or anyone else who’s involved with that kind of setup.

perfection doesn't exist in this world
Reply to  I say this.
July 18, 2023 10:40 am

only Hashem is perfect
I don’t know if I’ve ever met 1 perfect family in my entire life

nicely written article!
July 19, 2023 7:51 am

Thank you! may all those waiting and trying to find their bashert – do so happily and smoothly and quickly bzh!!

My mom is bt and father is gezh
July 19, 2023 9:29 pm

Practically…. If it’s meant to be it’s possible and… It’s the family’s responsibility to do the “work” of all the communication involved with everything and don’t shame, just seek to understand more There is much more that meets the eye 👁 On both ends – ma nishtana… the more awareness The better in a relationship level- do the work just like any person the me we do the work the more healing it is and practically less fear and “mesiras nefesh” To make these kind of choices Before judging we need to respect what there is already Building any family… Read more »

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