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Wednesday, 16 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 19, 2019

    This Shabbos, Avoid the Choir

    From the COLlive inbox: A faux custom to chant a single word from this week's Parshah should not be allowed in Chabad shuls. Full Story

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    Thank you
    Guest
    Thank you

    This shoud give chizuk to those who remain silent throughout the entire krias HaTorah.

    not gonna hear it in chabad
    Guest
    not gonna hear it in chabad

    but if you go to a polihe shul, over there they rate the baal koreh according to the KU EIEIELEH

    Yasher Koach.
    Guest
    Yasher Koach.

    But it is hard to resist 🙂
    Have a great Shabbos!

    Thank you for pointing out
    Guest
    Thank you for pointing out

    This is the last place you need to raise such an issue. People talk nonstop during Krias hatora. If your looking for something to correct, it’s a good place to start.

    A Solution
    Guest
    A Solution

    In our shul, everyone participates in this “minhag” and sings Ka-eileh out loud however the baal koreh pauses and then resumes reading including the word ka-eileh after everyone is quiet (similar to “haman” in the megila). This would seem to satisfy everyone – both those that enjoy this “minhag” as well as the halachic need for silence during the actual reading of the baal koreh.

    as well....
    Guest
    as well....

    what about the kriya for rosh chodesh??

    Interesting
    Guest
    Interesting

    BH

    In the Poilishe Shtiblach that I grew up in, it was widely practiced that the “oilom” read along with the Baal Koireh and especially the end of the Aliyois.

    Reb Shor
    Guest
    Reb Shor

    Mechilas Kvodo, reference the Rebbe N’shmoso Eiden letter that is in regard to reading and singing the kriah along through out the entire reading of the Torah. Not in anyway to disqualify your thoughts however the Coeileh chant ain’t the end of the world.

    Baal Koreh Trick
    Guest
    Baal Koreh Trick

    As a baal koreh I’ve gotten to that part and paused, wait for everyone else to say it the I say it! ppl are a bit confused but it works 🙂

    PS I don’t think people do it as much in Pinchas cause they’re not expecting it as much as when it’s on YT where they hear it a lot

    PPS can believe this made it to a full news article

    To #8
    Guest
    To #8

    Did you read the article?

    Moshe Shor

    שנים מקרא ואחד תרגום
    Guest
    שנים מקרא ואחד תרגום

    אבל מותר לקרוא בשקט מההתחלה עד הסוף אם אתם משלימים לשנים מקרא ואחד תרגום

    Yehuda
    Guest
    Yehuda

    With all due respect, you are allowed to do shanayim mikra by reading along with the baal koreh. That is the halacha.

    Quiet or Loud
    Guest
    Quiet or Loud

    To all those bringing cases where it is permitted to read along with the BK, it seems all those cases are where the reading is directly from the Sefer Torah or /and is barely a whisper, which lets the person saying it (as well as others trying to hear Krias Hatorah) hear the BK himself.

    11 & 12
    Guest
    11 & 12

    That is not minhag chabad.

    #8, see page 180
    Guest
    #8, see page 180

    paragraph beginning וז״ל היעב״ץ, specifically condemning אותם שמזמרים ומנגנים בעת קרה״ת התיבות ופסוקים שיש בהם טעמים יפים וערבים לחיכם, ומשתדלים להראות ידיעתם וקול נגינתם

    To # 10 Reb Shor
    Guest
    To # 10 Reb Shor

    Yes I read your article but please go back and read the Rebbe Rashabs letter. I grew up with Poileshe, galitzianer Chassidim and they would follow the kriah either by humming or just saying the words ( I guess they follow the opinion of doing Shnei Mikra Vechad Targum I.e., listen from BK and follow on your own that’s like reading it twice) obviously we don’t follow that minhag ALL YEAR. Reference your article it’s just a yearly habit much like when Reb Mottel would read out loud on YT kriah the words “״והיית אך שמח we all could not… Read more »

    מענין לענין באותו ענין
    Guest
    מענין לענין באותו ענין

    it is extremely common that on ראש חודש and on ימים טובים that when the chazan finishes the brochos in חזרת הש”ץ people start answering amen before the chazan actually finishes the last word of the bracha and this is a halachic problem.
    לא יענה אמן חטופה (דהיינו כאלו האל”ף נקודה בחט”ף קמ”ץ או ק”ח אלא בקמ”ץ גדול) וכן שלא יחטוף וימהר לענות אותו קודם שיסיים המברך. שו”ע אדה”ז סימן קכד סעיף יא

    let not forget
    Guest
    let not forget

    There is also another minhag in lubavitch, to daven before leinging….learning chassidus before davening too…daven bzibor every teffilah…lets not worry about one word in lening when we all have a lot to be corrected…..a gutten shabbos

    Thanks
    Guest
    Thanks

    I’m always glad to learn these halachos.

    #13, see the letter
    Guest
    #13, see the letter

    He specifically addresses whether the oleh (who, we pasken, *should* read together with bal korei) must keep his voice so low that even he can’t hear it, or may raise it enough that he can hear it but nobody else. But lechol hade’os nobody else must be able to hear it.

    yehuda
    Guest
    yehuda

    To #12. Chabad minhag is to say shnaim mikra then targum for every pasuk. I believe that it is stated in hayom yom. Also it say in shulchan aruch that one should not read out loud with the bal koreh because ot can cause someone else not to be yotzeh because he hears you and not the baal koreh

    #16, re shnayim mikra
    Guest
    #16, re shnayim mikra

    1. One may read along for Shnayim Mikra, but *only* if it’s so quiet that nobody else can hear.
    2. I don’t know where you got the bizarre idea that by following and hearing one is yotzei twice! That is impossible. By reading along quietly, one is yotzei *once*, not twice! One still needs to read it a second time, plus the targum (or read the chumash a *third* time with Rashi).

    Moshe Shor
    Guest
    Moshe Shor

    To #8/16: My assumption that you didn’t read the article stems from this excerpt(It’s very clear throughout the article that Ko’Eileh is only a prominent example): In the Rebbe Rashab’s written proclamation regarding hearing Krias HaTorah (Igros Kodesh of Rebbe Rashab Volume 1, page 177-181), 2 full pages (179-181) are dedicated to deplore this cute Minhag. In addition to quoting the Zohar, Poskim and other seforim, the Rebbe Rashab categorizes the practice as a “grave transgression” and implores his readers “Chas veSholom not to assist and read along with the Chazan [Ba’al Koreh].” Regarding Shnayim Mikrah: Although the Alter Rebbe… Read more »

    Shnayim mikra
    Guest
    Shnayim mikra

    The Gra holds that reading along with the baal koreh counts for one. Minhag chabad (you can look this up in shaarei halacha u’mingag, as well as other places) is not to do this. One is allowed to do shnayim mikra only between aliyos. Look up the shulchan aruch on this, it’s in hilchos shabos.

    shliach
    Guest
    shliach

    BH I don’t have this problem in my chabad house. when my crowd starts singing along with the baal korei, I will know that my work is done. until then, bring it on!

    a stretch
    Guest
    a stretch

    There is no such minhag. A handful of people do it and i say good for them! Why make a mountain out of a molehill. The whole article is a stretch….

    duh
    Guest
    duh

    chabad shuls are unfortunately becoming world renown for their non-stop talking; during laining, davening, dvar torah, it doesnt matter. if you want to focus on halacha and minhag i suggest you start there, not on one word in one parsha which is easily overcome by having the baal koreh wait one extra second.

    To #27: Let's all increase our Yirei Shomayim at our level!
    Guest
    To #27: Let's all increase our Yirei Shomayim at our level!

    Your comment unfortunately is very true, but when one realises the importance of even one word, hopefully this will make the person realise that if even speaking one word is so important, kal vochomer that we fore sure need to be more careful in many more areas also that ‘come before this’! i.e. speaking about this area may trigger a person to make a hachlata to be more careful in other areas also, and help the person realise how much more there is to grow!!!

    Btw the minhag chabad regarding shnayim mikra is also
    quoted in Hayom Yom for 30 Sivan.

    Hey
    Guest
    Hey

    To each their own. If the article writer is passionate about a matter which he shows is substantiated by documented Rebbe positions, it’s his turn at the mike, and anyone equally moved can/will act accordingly. If you have something else you are passionate about (e.g., talking in the middle of kriah) then say your piece in your own article (if COL wishes to blog it. Don’t rain on his parade.

    hmm
    Guest
    hmm

    It’s not only parshas PInchas, but every single yomtov maftir. When I’m leining, I just pause and read it afterward. Didn’t think of writing an op-ed, though. Talk about a storm in a teacup, as if there aren’t important things to talk about

    THANK YOU
    Guest
    THANK YOU

    its always nice to read well-written articles that teach us the right thing.
    those with yiras shomayim apreciate and welcome the chance to learn more.
    those lacking will scoff at anything new they hear.

    Moshe Shor
    Guest
    Moshe Shor

    To #26: A prohibition rooted in Talmudic and Zoharic sources is a molehill?!

    A transgression that the Rebbe Rashab dedicates 2 full pages to and classifies as an “Issur Godol” is considered by your standards to have ‘molehill’ status?!

    The Torah clearly discourages comparing the importance of Mitzvos and Dinim one to the other(save when they conflict), and especially in the light of Chassidus, such comparisons are diametrically opposed to the absolute notion professed by Chassidus of Hashem’s Will being unified throughout all details. In plain English: every Din is a mountain, not a molehill.

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