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Tuesday, 15 Tishri, 5782
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This Shabbos, Avoid the Choir

From the COLlive inbox: A faux custom to chant a single word from this week's Parshah should not be allowed in Chabad shuls. Full Story

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Moshe Shor
July 14, 2014 12:30 am

To #26: A prohibition rooted in Talmudic and Zoharic sources is a molehill?!

A transgression that the Rebbe Rashab dedicates 2 full pages to and classifies as an “Issur Godol” is considered by your standards to have ‘molehill’ status?!

The Torah clearly discourages comparing the importance of Mitzvos and Dinim one to the other(save when they conflict), and especially in the light of Chassidus, such comparisons are diametrically opposed to the absolute notion professed by Chassidus of Hashem’s Will being unified throughout all details. In plain English: every Din is a mountain, not a molehill.

THANK YOU
July 13, 2014 9:09 pm

its always nice to read well-written articles that teach us the right thing.
those with yiras shomayim apreciate and welcome the chance to learn more.
those lacking will scoff at anything new they hear.

hmm
July 13, 2014 12:18 pm

It’s not only parshas PInchas, but every single yomtov maftir. When I’m leining, I just pause and read it afterward. Didn’t think of writing an op-ed, though. Talk about a storm in a teacup, as if there aren’t important things to talk about

Hey
July 13, 2014 2:13 am

To each their own. If the article writer is passionate about a matter which he shows is substantiated by documented Rebbe positions, it’s his turn at the mike, and anyone equally moved can/will act accordingly. If you have something else you are passionate about (e.g., talking in the middle of kriah) then say your piece in your own article (if COL wishes to blog it. Don’t rain on his parade.

To #27: Let's all increase our Yirei Shomayim at our level!
July 13, 2014 1:20 am

Your comment unfortunately is very true, but when one realises the importance of even one word, hopefully this will make the person realise that if even speaking one word is so important, kal vochomer that we fore sure need to be more careful in many more areas also that ‘come before this’! i.e. speaking about this area may trigger a person to make a hachlata to be more careful in other areas also, and help the person realise how much more there is to grow!!! Btw the minhag chabad regarding shnayim mikra is also quoted in Hayom Yom for 30… Read more »

duh
July 12, 2014 11:27 pm

chabad shuls are unfortunately becoming world renown for their non-stop talking; during laining, davening, dvar torah, it doesnt matter. if you want to focus on halacha and minhag i suggest you start there, not on one word in one parsha which is easily overcome by having the baal koreh wait one extra second.

a stretch
July 11, 2014 7:48 pm

There is no such minhag. A handful of people do it and i say good for them! Why make a mountain out of a molehill. The whole article is a stretch….

shliach
July 11, 2014 6:29 pm

BH I don’t have this problem in my chabad house. when my crowd starts singing along with the baal korei, I will know that my work is done. until then, bring it on!

Shnayim mikra
July 11, 2014 6:24 pm

The Gra holds that reading along with the baal koreh counts for one. Minhag chabad (you can look this up in shaarei halacha u’mingag, as well as other places) is not to do this. One is allowed to do shnayim mikra only between aliyos. Look up the shulchan aruch on this, it’s in hilchos shabos.

Moshe Shor
July 11, 2014 6:11 pm

To #8/16: My assumption that you didn’t read the article stems from this excerpt(It’s very clear throughout the article that Ko’Eileh is only a prominent example): In the Rebbe Rashab’s written proclamation regarding hearing Krias HaTorah (Igros Kodesh of Rebbe Rashab Volume 1, page 177-181), 2 full pages (179-181) are dedicated to deplore this cute Minhag. In addition to quoting the Zohar, Poskim and other seforim, the Rebbe Rashab categorizes the practice as a “grave transgression” and implores his readers “Chas veSholom not to assist and read along with the Chazan [Ba’al Koreh].” Regarding Shnayim Mikrah: Although the Alter Rebbe… Read more »

#16, re shnayim mikra
July 11, 2014 5:44 pm

1. One may read along for Shnayim Mikra, but *only* if it’s so quiet that nobody else can hear.
2. I don’t know where you got the bizarre idea that by following and hearing one is yotzei twice! That is impossible. By reading along quietly, one is yotzei *once*, not twice! One still needs to read it a second time, plus the targum (or read the chumash a *third* time with Rashi).

yehuda
July 11, 2014 4:56 pm

To #12. Chabad minhag is to say shnaim mikra then targum for every pasuk. I believe that it is stated in hayom yom. Also it say in shulchan aruch that one should not read out loud with the bal koreh because ot can cause someone else not to be yotzeh because he hears you and not the baal koreh

#13, see the letter
July 11, 2014 4:18 pm

He specifically addresses whether the oleh (who, we pasken, *should* read together with bal korei) must keep his voice so low that even he can’t hear it, or may raise it enough that he can hear it but nobody else. But lechol hade’os nobody else must be able to hear it.

Thanks
July 11, 2014 4:12 pm

I’m always glad to learn these halachos.

let not forget
July 11, 2014 4:09 pm

There is also another minhag in lubavitch, to daven before leinging….learning chassidus before davening too…daven bzibor every teffilah…lets not worry about one word in lening when we all have a lot to be corrected…..a gutten shabbos

מענין לענין באותו ענין
July 11, 2014 4:05 pm

it is extremely common that on ראש חודש and on ימים טובים that when the chazan finishes the brochos in חזרת הש”ץ people start answering amen before the chazan actually finishes the last word of the bracha and this is a halachic problem.
לא יענה אמן חטופה (דהיינו כאלו האל”ף נקודה בחט”ף קמ”ץ או ק”ח אלא בקמ”ץ גדול) וכן שלא יחטוף וימהר לענות אותו קודם שיסיים המברך. שו”ע אדה”ז סימן קכד סעיף יא

To # 10 Reb Shor
July 11, 2014 4:01 pm

Yes I read your article but please go back and read the Rebbe Rashabs letter. I grew up with Poileshe, galitzianer Chassidim and they would follow the kriah either by humming or just saying the words ( I guess they follow the opinion of doing Shnei Mikra Vechad Targum I.e., listen from BK and follow on your own that’s like reading it twice) obviously we don’t follow that minhag ALL YEAR. Reference your article it’s just a yearly habit much like when Reb Mottel would read out loud on YT kriah the words “״והיית אך שמח we all could not… Read more »

#8, see page 180
July 11, 2014 3:58 pm

paragraph beginning וז״ל היעב״ץ, specifically condemning אותם שמזמרים ומנגנים בעת קרה״ת התיבות ופסוקים שיש בהם טעמים יפים וערבים לחיכם, ומשתדלים להראות ידיעתם וקול נגינתם

11 & 12
July 11, 2014 2:56 pm

That is not minhag chabad.

Quiet or Loud
July 11, 2014 2:15 pm

To all those bringing cases where it is permitted to read along with the BK, it seems all those cases are where the reading is directly from the Sefer Torah or /and is barely a whisper, which lets the person saying it (as well as others trying to hear Krias Hatorah) hear the BK himself.

Yehuda
July 11, 2014 1:15 pm

With all due respect, you are allowed to do shanayim mikra by reading along with the baal koreh. That is the halacha.

שנים מקרא ואחד תרגום
July 11, 2014 1:01 pm

אבל מותר לקרוא בשקט מההתחלה עד הסוף אם אתם משלימים לשנים מקרא ואחד תרגום

To #8
July 11, 2014 12:46 pm

Did you read the article?

Moshe Shor

Baal Koreh Trick
July 11, 2014 12:30 pm

As a baal koreh I’ve gotten to that part and paused, wait for everyone else to say it the I say it! ppl are a bit confused but it works 🙂

PS I don’t think people do it as much in Pinchas cause they’re not expecting it as much as when it’s on YT where they hear it a lot

PPS can believe this made it to a full news article

Reb Shor
July 11, 2014 12:17 pm

Mechilas Kvodo, reference the Rebbe N’shmoso Eiden letter that is in regard to reading and singing the kriah along through out the entire reading of the Torah. Not in anyway to disqualify your thoughts however the Coeileh chant ain’t the end of the world.

Interesting
July 11, 2014 12:16 pm

BH

In the Poilishe Shtiblach that I grew up in, it was widely practiced that the “oilom” read along with the Baal Koireh and especially the end of the Aliyois.

as well....
July 11, 2014 12:04 pm

what about the kriya for rosh chodesh??

A Solution
July 11, 2014 12:00 pm

In our shul, everyone participates in this “minhag” and sings Ka-eileh out loud however the baal koreh pauses and then resumes reading including the word ka-eileh after everyone is quiet (similar to “haman” in the megila). This would seem to satisfy everyone – both those that enjoy this “minhag” as well as the halachic need for silence during the actual reading of the baal koreh.

Thank you for pointing out
July 11, 2014 11:53 am

This is the last place you need to raise such an issue. People talk nonstop during Krias hatora. If your looking for something to correct, it’s a good place to start.

Yasher Koach.
July 11, 2014 11:40 am

But it is hard to resist 🙂
Have a great Shabbos!

not gonna hear it in chabad
July 11, 2014 11:39 am

but if you go to a polihe shul, over there they rate the baal koreh according to the KU EIEIELEH

Thank you
July 11, 2014 11:13 am

This shoud give chizuk to those who remain silent throughout the entire krias HaTorah.

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