Tuesday, 2 Tishri, 5783
  |  September 27, 2022

The Sheer Chutzpah of the Bureaucrats

Article by Rabbi Shimon Posner: "How dare they!?! Where do they get the gall to presume that for the hundreds of thousands -- millions! – of children in New York State, they alone possess the wisdom to chart the educational course for each of these children?" Full Story

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Spot on
September 18, 2022 2:54 pm

True about education, and health mandates also.

There's a reason for it
September 18, 2022 3:53 pm

It’s all the people on welfare and food stamps that is driving this pressure. If you created enough chassidishe trade schools (as the Rebbe asked for) so that everyone would be able to work, even if they didn’t know who Charlemagne was, then nobody would have been able to claim that they were deprived of a basic education. You can’t just point at the exceptions and ignore all the other people who are simply not able to work due to a lack of skills.

CH resident
Reply to  There's a reason for it
September 18, 2022 5:09 pm

Don’t kid yourself, this has nothing to do with whether chassidic citizens work or are receiving benefits. If that were a concern, there are many minority groups costing much more in benefits and crime related issues.
This is a way to seep the progressive, liberal ideas such as gender confusion, CRT, etc into the last holdouts, religious people

Other groups
Reply to  CH resident
September 18, 2022 7:56 pm

Aren’t asking for government funding of private schools on top of all of the other benefits. You are and you are still dependent on government socialism…and you also wonder why Hasidic groups continue to vote for Democrats? They need the government handouts

Missed the point.
September 18, 2022 4:01 pm

Withholding a basic education from your children is abusive. The state gets involved in cases of abuse and neglect because if they don’t nobody else will.

Nobody can seem to explain what part of halacha forbids reading, writing, and other basic skills. If anything, it’s anything it’s against Halacha to cause such a hardship for your children.

I think you’re confusing your religious freedoms with your own personal preferences because this has nothing to do with frumkeit whatsoever.

Basic skills
Reply to  Missed the point.
September 18, 2022 5:18 pm

The requirements go way beyond the basic skills that are needed for a parnassa.

Who said anything about Parnasa?
Reply to  Basic skills
September 18, 2022 7:43 pm

Learning basic subjects improves quality of life. That goes way beyond putting food on the table.

Have you bothered
Reply to  Missed the point.
September 18, 2022 5:41 pm

…learning the sicha of Simchas Torah 5715 on this subject? Because there the Rebbe has “bothered to explain” what the issue is. And I think he might have known halachah a little better than you.

Every boy in lubavitch
Reply to  Have you bothered
September 18, 2022 7:45 pm

In the 70s and 80s every boy in lubavitch learned basic subjects. Are you saying the Rebbe didn’t know about it? Are you saying tochai tmimim was ignoring the rebbe ch”v?

Reply to  Every boy in lubavitch
September 18, 2022 10:41 pm

Because, you know, the same Rebbe spearheaded the development of Oholei Torah, which had the same curriculum – al taharas hakodesh – then as now. So what’s this “every boy in [L]ubavitch”?

You, sir, missed the point
Reply to  Missed the point.
September 18, 2022 5:51 pm

Clearly, there are different definitions of a “basic education.” Methinks it is criminal for a Jewish parent not to give their children a full Yeshiva education. The future of the Jewish people depends on it. Public schools will not produce the next generation of Jewish scholars and rabbinic leaders, which the Jewish people and the civilized world so desperately need.

Kudos to Rabbi Posner for a well written article.

Not every student
Reply to  You, sir, missed the point
September 19, 2022 1:56 pm

Not every student will be a Jewish scholar and Rabbinic leader. Perhaps the focus of the chinuch should be for every student, not just those who will be scholars and leaders. This doesn’t mean a secular education but a good Torah education for those who are not scholars.

It’s your opinion
Reply to  You, sir, missed the point
September 19, 2022 3:11 pm

Every yeshiva outside of a few neighborhoods teaches their kids to read and write in ADDITION to a full yeshiva education. Every very frum yeshiva in Flatbush has a full English education

Government knows best
September 18, 2022 4:45 pm

Government knows best, they are guided by self-crowned intellectuals and they have very good intentions. If you don’t follow their edicts they can punish you or reward you if you are a nice boy/girl.
I am not sure why a adding a little English, Math and History is such a big deal.
The Department of Ed does a great job with the public schools, each of them is a gem.

A concerned person
Reply to  Government knows best
September 18, 2022 5:50 pm

The government knows what’s best until they start interfering in our childrens chinuch and our values it starts with just learning English subjects and then who knows what’s next. And some concepts in science are against Torah, how can we compromise our values because “the government knows best”

Government knows best
Reply to  A concerned person
September 19, 2022 1:17 pm

Sarcasm my friend

Oy vey
September 18, 2022 5:12 pm

Hashem should watch over us and our kinderlach

Pinchos Woolstone
September 18, 2022 5:43 pm

There are a number of agendas at play simultaneously with the present struggle to attempt to force Yeshivos to conform a relatively rigid secular curriculum mandate. This needs to be resisted in a smart intelligent manner. A Yeshivah can incorporate certain courses in secular knowledge like Language Mathematics and Sciences without corrupting the Frum and or Chassidishe Chinuch and atmosphere of the Moisod. However,parents have the right to choose for their child/children the stream they prefer. Worldwide there are Frum/ Chassidishe doctors lawyers accountants etc unfortunately there are also more than a few people who went thru a Kodesh only… Read more »

Extreme approaches
Reply to  Pinchos Woolstone
September 18, 2022 8:01 pm

Yes, they could have incorporated basic subjects in a frum way but certain Hasidic schools took a bet that they could get away with an extreme approach and now we are all stuck with an extreme approach in the other direction

beautiful and sad
Reply to  Extreme approaches
September 19, 2022 4:59 pm

nobody took any bets. I don’t know what other communities do but in Lubavitch, those who did not provide secular education were following the guidance of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
The questions regarding funding? perhaps more donors should be found instead of government funding, alternatively get the government to return what they tax us instead of justr funding the public schools.
that is a question that as rabbi Posner explained so well is completely separate from my decision how to educate my child

Reply to  Pinchos Woolstone
September 18, 2022 9:18 pm

As I said before this argument can be made to parents by you
the government has no right to interfere unless there’s abuse or neglect objectively

Reply to  Yosef
September 19, 2022 2:56 pm

But you’re asking for government funding of these private schools… you have to expect conditions to go along with it

Funny how they try to ruin everything good
September 18, 2022 5:49 pm

Especially since they’ve done so well with their public schools.. NOT! Look at OUR young married couples, the teachers, the entrepreneurs, living a good (need we say law abiding) life, with community, family, a sense of direction and purpose- and a disproportionate level of success in their undertakings whether it be shlichus, education or building business empires! That’s true freedom. Of course a system peopled by bureaucrats who feed on subjugation and control of others can’t stand that! Which is probably why they look so bitter and angry all the time.

Reply to  Funny how they try to ruin everything good
September 19, 2022 7:58 am

Exactly. Let’s ignore all the neshomos we put at risk to make this point. As I stroll down Kingston Avenue, I ignore the smell of pot and the pain I see in those young people that self harm. Instead I see the young whippersnappers with the luxury cars, the ones chartering planes to visit kivrei tzadikim and the ones who are going to the yom tov programs that host our best and brightest scholars in residence and most talented singers. Ashreinu! for we have the chinuch system that produces this level of success! Ashreinu!

September 18, 2022 9:02 pm

This reads like an attempt to twist current volatile events into a Elul pulpit speech. The topic has been rehashed countless times in countless places. Every time some people blur the issues so they can yell about religious freedom and chinuch. No one is stopping any yeshiva from teaching torah. The Achei Tmimims outside New York taught and teach secular studies alongside torah ones, under the authority, permission and support of the frierdiker rebbe and the rebbe. There’s nothing wrong with adhering to governmentally mandated equivalency curriculum while keeping the current jewish one. And there’s much good in doing so.… Read more »

Reply to  puleeze
September 19, 2022 2:53 am

The point is not WHAT they’re trying to institute. The point is that they’re mishing arein AT ALL. That’s the crux of the issue.

Reply to  puleeze
September 19, 2022 8:15 am

We just celebrated 125 years since the founding of Tomchei Tmimim. The Rebbe explained the reason the Freirdiker Rebbe established TT in the United States with limudei chol was because it was the law of the land.

As we continue to thrive in this medinah shel chesed, let’s all circle the wagons as one, and be moser nefesh when this 100 year old law starts to be enforced. We grew up with chasidim that were imprisoned fighting the communists, they are slowly dying out and we will manufacture chasidim who, if need be, will be imprisoned fighting the democrats!

Didn't you just contradict yourself
Reply to  TTL
September 19, 2022 3:05 pm

First you said the rebbeim established schools with limudei chol because it was the law of the land…they didn’t call for fighting it and comparing it to communist Russia the way you are doing.
But I’m not calling for limudei chol, especially the public school curriculum. I am calling for more trade schools so that people will still have the chance to have a parnasa. We’re not seeing any trade skills taught in any of the CH schools and not even in camp, where for some reason it is accepted to take a break from Torah…

Quality chinuch
September 19, 2022 1:49 pm

Maybe this has happened because the yeshivas are not providing children with a quality Torah education. Are there enough resources for students who may not be tops in the class? Are students given the opportunity to learn other Torah topics, such as Tanach or shulchan aruch, before being pushed to learn Gemara ? Do the teachers still do punitive discipline or do they try to see what is bothering a student? Are there methods taught for students who may have different talents or different ways of learning, such as auditory skills or artistic talents? Strengthen the Torah learning and then… Read more »

Sleep with a dog...wake up with fleas
September 19, 2022 2:07 pm

The yeshivos take govt money, allow gov’t “health” mandates, and now govt mixes into what should and should not be taught…..
Your article misses this key point. If someone comes into your house – that supports you….they may state their opinion and bec you continue to want their financial support, you may just not throw them out as quickly as you write.