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  |  October 24, 2023

Tahor App Responds to Rabbi Ban

Zisa Levin, creator of the 'Tahor App' has sent a response to COLlive following Rabbi Sholom Ber Shuchat's letter banning the app for Taharas Hamishpacha. Full Story

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the founders of the app
May 25, 2017 1:03 am

are the founders of the app even frum? were they shomer negiah and keeping tahras hamishpacha BEFORE they were married?

Bedika should be photographed with an adjacent standardized color chart
May 14, 2017 4:37 am

The issue can easily be solved if the app maker would physically deliver a standardized printed copy card which has on it a huge selection of many shades of many colors. Then instruct the user to place the Bedika in the center of the color chart which is (not printed on your printer but) mailed to you by the app producer. The Bedika can then he photographed by the phone together with the color chart. This would solve most (but not all) of the problem of inaccurate color rendition of the pbotograph. Because if the effect of the camera or… Read more »

$3.99 to send a shaalah to a Rov
May 12, 2017 7:55 am

It is despicable for a Rov charge any money to Pasken a shaalah.

simple solution
May 12, 2017 4:45 am

Ask the Rabbi if this is a good solution – when taking the Picture of the Bedika cloth place a color chart large enough that has all the shades of colors and this can verify the color – in sunlight or low lighting since the picture shows both the bedika cloth and the color chart at the same exposure of light at the same time.
Every color has a number and if the Rabbi has the same color chart he can verify exactly the color.

Here's a novel idea....
May 12, 2017 12:16 am

As Rabbonim, why not be solution oriented and assist the couple who put so much work into this app to figure out how to make it kosher and accessable to the masses? Or are you threatened by the app’s potential?

MRS PERL ARBOR
May 11, 2017 11:02 pm

NO SELF RESPECTING FRUM WOMAN
WHICH SELF RESPECTING FRUM WOMAN WOULD RELY ON SUCH AN AD HOC IFFY METHOD EVEN IF SHE WAS TRAVELLING OR NOT. SHE WOULD SIMPLY WAIT UNTIL SHE GETS TO A PLACE WHERE A ROV RESIDES OR PLAN HER TRAVEL PLANS ACCORDINGLY.
WHATEVER NEXT? AN APP FOR EXAMINING ESROGIM LULOVIM,?

No embarrassment!
May 11, 2017 5:47 pm

I bring my questional garments etc in a envelope that I drop off in the slot on Kingston with my phone number. He calls back later. What’s the issue of embarrassment?

uber bedikah
May 11, 2017 1:30 pm

This app is not a good idea for all the reasons others have mentioned. Way to easy for people to unintentionally transgress serious Halacha and spiritual issues.

Perhaps the developers of this app could refocus and help the embarrassed crowd by creating an Uber app service to pick up and drop off bedikas at the LOR.

To #55
May 11, 2017 1:24 pm

Why are they embarrassed? They can send it in anonymously; they can send it with their husbands. It can be in an envelope. It can be given to the Rav’s wife to give it to him, if necessary. Where exactly is the awkwardness?

To #52
May 11, 2017 1:19 pm

The same argument was applied when the eiruv was put up. “Better don’t use it, its there for those people who carry anyways at least they wont be nichshol and carry on Shabbos”. Bottom line is, what happened is that many people who i know personally that WOULD NEVER never carry on Shabbos, stating doing so, relying on the Eruv etc. What this will cause is that many people who normally go to a Rov will stop. The Yetzer Hora has now an excellent excuse: “Why shlep zich out in the freezing snowy night to go to a rov when… Read more »

Why all the hate?
May 11, 2017 11:25 am

I know for a fact that many women, especially those new to keeping T”HM are embarrassed about sending in clothes and underwear to a Rav to check. Don’t play coy and say you don’t understand that. Yes, it’s a mitzvah, no, that doesn’t make it not awkward. Can’t we agree that it’s preferable to use the app than to not consult a Rav at all?

And to everyone trying to compare bringing these to a Rav to going to the OBGYN, it’s not at all the same.
This is the exact reason that many women choose a FEMALE OB-GYN.

Please dont use this app!!!
May 11, 2017 9:23 am

you dont want to be over on this aveira!

#5's 3rd paragraph...
May 11, 2017 9:06 am

…says it all. It should be emblazoned at the top of every discussion of this and many other topics.

The Tahor Team
May 11, 2017 9:01 am

Thank you for your inquiry, To clarify (as this seems not to be clear): “Tahor” is meant to serve as a halachically approved “filter” for a majority of Shailos (many of which are straightforward and simple to determine). It is meant to allow those who may not have access to a rov, or who may not feel comfortable going to a rov, to have an option, when halachically viable, to send in their sample anonymously. What this app is not: This app IS NOT meant to be an umbrella replacement for the process of showing questionable bedikah cloths to Rabbonim.… Read more »

A frum female photographer"s perspective
May 11, 2017 8:35 am

As a frum woman with great yiras shomayim and as an experienced photographer I would only recommend this in the most dire circumstances and with the approval of and in phone a consultation with my trusted Rabbi in each instance of need.
Even the most professionally produced photograph will appear different on every device and printer. Even the same photograph printed on the same printer will not render the same colors on different papers.

Insensitive rabbis
May 11, 2017 8:21 am

Not so long ago I went to my local chabad rabbi and he walked outside the building to the front entrance to look at my wife’s underwear. Before he did so I told it was not urgent and he could discard them. I was mortified and embarrassed and will not go back to him. Thank G-d no one walked in at that moment.
The flip side is, I do not pay him and am not a donor, so I don’t expect special treatment.

My two cents
May 11, 2017 8:10 am

Not appropriate to even discuss this subject on such a public forum
Whatever happened to kevodah bas melech penimah
Certain things are better off not being discussed here
Children have easy access to this article
Have mercy on our children

Where's the respect?
May 11, 2017 7:53 am

And kids of all ages have to be exposed to this whole debate because…?

Not sure how a topic so private, got public exposure on a kids level in the first place….

From advertising about the app, to a public ban response, and a rhetoric to that, with everyone’s comments here, that little kids should not be privy to….

To 35
May 11, 2017 7:52 am

Its not possible for many working men to bring a shaala to a rav as fast as say a stay at home mother could

CAN EVERYONE PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT AND READ THIS...
May 11, 2017 7:36 am

Zisa, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for all of your hard work and effort. No doubt, a tremendous amount of thought and effort has gone into putting this ap together.No doubt your intentions were tremendously honorable and highly comendable. If everyone could just sit back , for just a moment and reflect on the time frame of Jewish history that we are in….a time when we want to look to increase in ahavas chinom to offset the sinas chinom that was so prevelent at that time, causing the Churban. It is the job of the paskanim… Read more »

Don't we use technology
May 11, 2017 7:29 am

To scan STaM now to render their kashrut?

To number 20
May 11, 2017 5:47 am

You seem so confident to use this app and if you live close to a Rov this app wasn’t made for you to use!! Perfect example of someone who shouldn’t use this app and will now use the app and is encouraging others to use it. The concept of this app is brilliant only we were given clear instructions that any questionable color needs to go to a rov. If ppl are travelling let them push off their mikvah date. Lets keep our standards for one of the most important mitzvohs to the highest standards. This is one of the… Read more »

Please say "Baruch Hashem" whole heartedly
May 11, 2017 5:39 am

Dear Zisa,
After reading forty opinions as well as your response, I feel it’s important for all women to know that:
1. One easily can hide one’s caller ID on many phones, if one prefers anonimity;
2. One needn’t give a Rabbi one’s name; and
3. The Rabbonim generally are perceptive, respectful and well aware of the many reasons it might be difficult to travel to their offices. They usually are excellent communicators and know what to ask or explain, thereby saving unnecessary trips.

This app intends to help...
May 11, 2017 4:26 am

only the creator of this app – by charging $ 3.99 per one time asking the Rabbi.
As it is hard to believe that those Rabbis are sharing profits in this app…
If the creator of this app – as the Rabbis connected to that app – would really mean to help… they would and should do this service for free, as any Rabbi is not charging if you go to ask him in person…

#39
May 11, 2017 12:17 am

That’s shameful. You’re coming from a place of supposed open mindedness and progressiveness and you have no problem reading the worst into people’s intentions. As long as you can be open minded you’re willing to run over anybody and state that it’s obvious that they are running over others.

Shameful

I remember
May 10, 2017 11:43 pm

The picture going around a couple of years ago of a dress. Is it gold? White? Blue? Everyone said a different colour

Peanut Gallery
May 10, 2017 11:25 pm

There seems to be a trend of anything that remotely helps women in halacha gets shut down in seconds but any possible heter for men and mashgichem….. Just stating the obvious.

Have mercy!
May 10, 2017 11:11 pm

Another invention of Torah-Lite. Stay tuned for our next Torah circumventing​ App!
May Hashem have mercy on us and send Moshiach now before we get steeper in this mud.

not sure
May 10, 2017 11:04 pm

1. If a woman is somewhere without access to a Rov, she has a problem. Giving her incorrect answers doesn’t solve the problem. 2. If a woman has issues with TH, giving her incorrect information is not going to solve the problem. In both cases, I am reminded of what the Frierdike Rebbe said – When you are putting out a raging fire, you may not care if the water is pure, but you don’t use kerosene. 3. She claims that Rabbi Shuchat didn’t follow instructions. What makes her think that the people who are using this app will follow… Read more »

For the emergency sitch
May 10, 2017 10:58 pm

If one is considering to use this for emergency situations only..as you suggest its intent, and has a Rov comfortable paskening a shaala based on a pic, take a pic with your smartphone and send the pic to the Rov.
By formally incentivising communicating to the Rov through an app, it will bring people to using it automatically. Not a good idea. pic would accomplish same purpose.

Put Things in Perspective
May 10, 2017 10:57 pm

Imagine sending a picture of a potentially life threatening growth or wound on your body to a doctor in a health app. Would you really trust the doctors opinion based on just a picture and never have it checked in person just in case?

We’re talking about an Issur KAREIS here, not whether lasagna is considered mezonos or hamoitzee.

And why on earth are the husbands not the ones bringing the shaylos??

Response to #6
May 10, 2017 10:20 pm

Break it down…
If the rov who was matir the eiruv aser’s the app, you definitely should not use it, no matter who you are, because you can’t go rov shopping based on your convenience!

Color, online, is hit-or-miss
May 10, 2017 10:14 pm

When buying clothing and trying to match a color to make a nice outfit, it’s dicey at best to try to do this based on an online color example/”swatch”. If one manages to find what truly seems to match the color needed, then once the garment is received, there’s at least a 50% chance the real garment’s color isn’t quite the shade it looks to be online. SO MUCH MORE SO for this app. I really wonder just how many Lubavitch Ravs are really enthusiastic proponents of this app being used toward this mitzvah, AT THE STATE THE TECHNOLOGY IS… Read more »

Here's the thing...
May 10, 2017 9:56 pm

On one hand. the developers have a valid point; mainly, that women who do not yet keep taharas hamishpacha will be encouraged and feel more secure and confident doing so. On the other hand, who’s to ensure that women who DO keep it to the highest degree wont slack off and fall back onto this app? It would certainly tempt me… (If i was married and all) Conclusion: It’s a nice thought, a creative business idea, but it just does not suffice. At the end of the day, this will weaken yiras shamayim and it is not lifnim mishuras hadin,… Read more »

Waiting to hear From more Rabonim.
May 10, 2017 9:51 pm

This didn’t sound right to me, but I’m waiting to hear the stands of more respected Rabbis before deciding if this is ok. How come in other frum circles they wouldn’t even think to formulate an opinion on this until they first hear from their Rabbonin. We should learn from their humility.
Just saying naaseh vnishma! First hear psak and then give your opinions.

Very nice idea, a few problems!
May 10, 2017 9:49 pm

Now that this app is out, some women that went to the rov till now, will stop!! (Because now there is a more convenient way to get the answer) 2. Not all phones have the same camera every phone is different. 3. Not all phones have the same variety of (display) color (a.k.a RGB) 4. It not only light that makes a difference it also shadow 5. “for example if a woman is traveling”, if you are traveling and you get a wound even if you’re going to send a picture to your doctor it might help a little but… Read more »

Finally!
May 10, 2017 9:43 pm

Oh wow this app is long overdue, what a great, kosher, and convenient way to keep such a beautiful mitzvah!!

Please say "Baruch Hashem" whole heartedly
May 10, 2017 9:38 pm

Dear Zisa, If you can say “Baruch Hashem!” through all of this with total faith in Hashem, so many blessings will come. The Abishter KNOWS your intentions. Not being familiar with all the details regarding your instructions to women when taking and sending a photo, I wonder if smart phones are universally calibrated to consistently and ACCURATELY represent color. My personal experience when sending a friend paint chip samples photographed with my phone and then messaged to her phone (which was the same model!) was that this is NOT the case. Perhaps light settings can calibrate light levels, but not… Read more »

worse
May 10, 2017 9:03 pm

This idea is worse than the shobbos light swich

Pragmatist
May 10, 2017 8:49 pm

The fact that someone could so easily “game” the app should be of enormous concern to anyone who actually cares about TH. It’s like with security – security pros will tell you that if it’s easy to break a locking method, you might as well not use it. All it does is provide a false sense of security, and that’s extremely dangerous.

Terrible idea
May 10, 2017 8:49 pm

Too many ifs here! Go to a rav! Call a rav! Need not be so explicit here for all to read! Some discretion is advisable. A time and place for every discussion

To 14
May 10, 2017 8:46 pm

Since when are 3 Rabbis (including a Chabad Rabbi who wrote a sefer on the topic) not enough? How many do you need to be “convinced”

What do you mean by local? I don’t see anywhere on that app that said it was made specifically for CH.

Strange Times...
May 10, 2017 8:46 pm

I love how an app developer is confident enough to shoot down a Rav’s opinion. Strange times we live in…

Husband
May 10, 2017 8:43 pm

I was under the impression that the husband takes the bedika cloth to the Rav.

@ #6
May 10, 2017 8:40 pm

Yup. Sure seems like it’s geared to the dial-a-heter crowd.

To those who want to pull the “too embarrassed too see a Rav, tell me, but there were no other times, like your first visit to your ob/gyn I’m sure you felt lots of bushah.
The first time you called a Rav and told him you stirred your chulent with a milchig spoon, you were embarrassed too.
It’s just part of life.
So the app. You are a married woman and can’t shy away from halacha

Fantastic app
May 10, 2017 8:39 pm

I will definitely be using the app in the future, and recommend many of my friends to as well

Women who do not ask....
May 10, 2017 8:25 pm

It states above that the app was created to accommodate women who do not ask or cannot ask. Last i checked, the Pesach Seder involves four sons one of whom doesn’t know how to ask. There are many women who don’t ask, so their husbands should ask. What does it mean that they are too far to ask, the telephone solved that issue a long time ago. And to the guy who said that those who use the eruv use the app, this Rabbi Shuchat permitted the use of the eruv and he prohibits this app – not so fast.

Big Question
May 10, 2017 8:17 pm

photo colors can be very off. with flash one color no flash another.
just look at these filters we have, slightly yellowish slightly orange…just taking the photo at a different angle it will be darker
you gotta be kidding…

Not one chabad more horaa, rav with shI mush permits it
May 10, 2017 8:06 pm

With all due respect to the Chabad Rabbi endorsing this, he is not a Rov More horaah with shimush.

Have mercy!
May 10, 2017 7:51 pm

Another invention of Torah-Lite. Stay tuned for our next Torah circumventing​ App!
May Hashem have mercy on us and send Moshiach now before we get steeper in this mud.

I support the App
May 10, 2017 7:49 pm

I think the tahor app is a amazing idea, and it helps woman around the world…
And what do u prefer? Woman asking through a tahor app or not doing it at all?
It does say that if the picture is too hard to tell then u should reach a rabbi.
So its not like they guess, if they dont know exactly, they tell you to go to a rabbi.
Thats my opinion although i respect and understand the position of other is still stand with the app

More rabbis
May 10, 2017 7:07 pm

If you are so convinced this is permitted according to Halacha why don’t you get more rabbis behind your cause.. local rabbis at that..

A little sensitivity needed...
May 10, 2017 7:04 pm

Not sure what the solution is, but this holy and private topic should not be discussed so openly on such a forum.

Respect...
May 10, 2017 6:58 pm

The appropriate response to Rabbi Shuchat would be to have your endorsing rabbis respond and address the issues point blank – not to have the creator answer from an emotional perspective.

Side point: Is this basically Tinder for Nidda? Rabbis swipe right for Tahor and left for Tamei…

Inventing
May 10, 2017 6:54 pm

Ok I’m going to solve the issue completely since we’re already making Halacha technology. Let’s make bedika clothes that are made with automatic answers to shailah.
Like a pregnancy test only a bedika cloth. You insert the cloth and when you take it out, it gives an answer on the spot! Who’s in? If it doesn’t sound good it’s because certain Halacha is part of asking a rav. Forsure it’s uncomfortable sometimes but you know what, it’s from this uncomfort that we receive brochois. Great idea though

Yahrog Vial Yaavor
May 10, 2017 6:53 pm

Anyone that knows anything from anything. knows that this is a nice dream but NOT Possible!

No Yiray Shomayim would give any agreement to this.

This will most likely be a michshol than anything else.
especially that it may be (some cases/shitas) an isur of yahhrog viall yaavor.

be very careful of anyone even thinking you agree with this!

…Hopefully this will be possible one day…. for now lets be thankful we have the capability of shipping!

Transparency
May 10, 2017 6:52 pm

Does it state clearly and explicitly on the app that it is only meant to be used “bishas hadchak”? (Not that it’ll help but at least then the creator can claim he is trying to listen to the rabbis)

Kids should not be exposed to rhetoric like this.
May 10, 2017 6:50 pm

If what she says is the case, why isn’t there a disclaimer on the advertising of the app? 1. “Tahor App was created with the help of prominent Rabbonim to alleviate this discomfort in a unique and innovative way.” 2. Q. When should I use Tahor App? A. “When you have a question regarding a potential Niddah stain, Tahor app will connect you with a Taharat Hamishpacha Expert to determine whether the stain in question is Tahor or not.” 3. “First, it’s important to remember that this app is intended only to help women who do not or cannot ask… Read more »

Rav
May 10, 2017 6:50 pm

Just like every baby boy – a mohel has to first SEE the baby to determine it’s color, so too a bedikah must be shown to a rav to Paskan!!

What will be next???

An app to show your Tefillin & Mezuzhas for a Sofer – because you live too far to send them to a local sofer.

A Rav can’t give a Pesak through modern technology – One has to actually see it – to determine of what status it actually is!

Here it is
May 10, 2017 6:46 pm

It breaks down to..,

If you use Eruv you use app

Weakening the Mitzva
May 10, 2017 6:38 pm

Your arguments do not convince me, an unmarried woman who is not yet keeping Taharas Hamishpocha. Instead of strengthening the mitzva, as you claim to be, you may actually be weakening it. Technology cannot ever take the place of the human judge who sees firsthand evidence in the way the Mesorah spells out, which is to see the actual cloth. As for your claim that it is anonymous–so is the system put into place by rabbonim at batei din who use a numbering system. As for embarassment–are women embarassed at the doctor? They go for healing and even prevention. Where… Read more »

chutzpo!!!
May 10, 2017 6:26 pm

YOU SHOULD KEEP QUIET AND LET THE RABBI WHO GAVE PERMISSION TO ANSWER INSTEAD OF BEING CHUTZPO TO A ROV MOIRE OIROO 2. SHOWING THAT IS POSSIBLLE TO DISAGREE AN HALACHIC TOPIC AGAINST A ROV WITHOUT HAVING THE LIMUD AND SHIMUSH AND OF COURSE THE AUTORITHY 3 YOU ARE NOIGEA BADOVOR

Far away
May 10, 2017 6:23 pm

Being far away, one can still use Fed-X.
Never heard of Rabbis asking over the phone; what kind of rabbis are these?

Problem is...
May 10, 2017 6:20 pm

sounds like the lady has to act partly as the Rav here, taking the picture herself. When she shows it to a Rav, he puts it where he wants in the right at the correct angle. It sounds like bending the Torah.

a shlucha's perspective
May 10, 2017 6:16 pm

While the concept of the app’s creation is meaningful and well-intended, the reality is that the nature of this important mitzvah (being private and personal) can be uncomfortable. While Tahor ‘completely encourages all women to bring bedikas to their rav,’ they cannot discern if the woman using the app is one who would otherwise not ask the shaala, resulting most certainly in many women using the app who even the Tahor team do not advise to use it versus visiting their rov. I’m bh on Shlichus: getting shaalos to a rov is sometimes uncomfortable, and most often inconvenient, and I… Read more »

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