Zisa Levin, creator of the ‘Tahor App’ which has received criticism from Rabbi Sholom Ber Shuchat, has sent COLlive a response.
As COLlive reported, Rabbi Shuchat warned against the use of the app, which allows women to “anonymously send pictures of their Bedikah cloths to their Rabbi with Tahor app’s Rabbinically approved technology.”
In her statement, Levin writes:
“After a very positive launch, we have received some very good points which we intend to address in this article. Namely, Rabbi Shuchat’s response to our app.
“First, it’s important to remember that this app is intended only to help women who do not or cannot ask questions.
For example, a woman who is traveling and has a question now has the ability to send her picture to her Rabbi. In the proper environment, she would bring her question to the Rav, but since she’s travelling, she cannot. Tahor app enables her to keep this mitzvah even though she cannot access her Rav in person.
“Attempting to prevent women from using this app will unfortunately result in excluding these from keeping this Mitzvah.
“Next, many women are currently calling their rabbis and describing the color to them when they cannot come in person. This app is obviously a better option to enable these women to provide their Rav with the best description available, a very accurate photo.
“Lastly, we hope this app will ultimately result in more people keeping Taharas Hamishpacha. We have come across so many women who do not ask questions because they are embarrassed or live too far away.
“As is evident from the huge amount of positive responses from these women, asking us to shut down this app effectively excludes these women from this mitzvah.”
“Rabbi Shuchat was concerned about a litany of tests that the Rabbi uses to review the Mar’eh.
a. One thing Rabbi Shuchat doesn’t mention is that in many instances, it’s very easy to tell if the stain is pure or not. When the purity status of the Mar’os is easily discernable (such as when the stain is clear or slightly yellow) most, if not all, of the detailed review Rabbi Shuchat describes is not necessary.
b. Further, if the Mar’eh does require the detailed review, the responding rabbi will instruct the user to bring their cloth to a rabbi.
“Rabbi Shuchat states that in different lighting, the photos will be slightly different.
a. We agree. Any time you introduce a different lighting to any color it will affect the color. This is an unavoidable fact of life. This has nothing to do with a camera. Different lighting will always affect color whether it’s in real life or on a screen. However, Rabbi Shuchat did not follow the apps instructions which instructs the picture to be taken in sunlight.
“4. Lastly, Rabbi Shuchat wonders how the color of the stain will be affected if the brightness on the Rabbi’s phone is dimmed.
a. We instruct all our responding rabbis to make sure their screens are turned up to the brightest level. This ensures a more consistent and accurate picture.
“Let’s be clear. We at Tahor completely encourage all women to bring their bedikas to their Rav. However, we recognize the fact that many women do not do this. It is for these women that Tahor app was created. Our goal at Tahor is to make sure all these women can be included in this mitzvah.
Thank you,
The Tahor Team”
are the founders of the app even frum? were they shomer negiah and keeping tahras hamishpacha BEFORE they were married?
The issue can easily be solved if the app maker would physically deliver a standardized printed copy card which has on it a huge selection of many shades of many colors. Then instruct the user to place the Bedika in the center of the color chart which is (not printed on your printer but) mailed to you by the app producer. The Bedika can then he photographed by the phone together with the color chart. This would solve most (but not all) of the problem of inaccurate color rendition of the pbotograph. Because if the effect of the camera or… Read more »
It is despicable for a Rov charge any money to Pasken a shaalah.
Ask the Rabbi if this is a good solution – when taking the Picture of the Bedika cloth place a color chart large enough that has all the shades of colors and this can verify the color – in sunlight or low lighting since the picture shows both the bedika cloth and the color chart at the same exposure of light at the same time.
Every color has a number and if the Rabbi has the same color chart he can verify exactly the color.
As Rabbonim, why not be solution oriented and assist the couple who put so much work into this app to figure out how to make it kosher and accessable to the masses? Or are you threatened by the app’s potential?
NO SELF RESPECTING FRUM WOMAN
WHICH SELF RESPECTING FRUM WOMAN WOULD RELY ON SUCH AN AD HOC IFFY METHOD EVEN IF SHE WAS TRAVELLING OR NOT. SHE WOULD SIMPLY WAIT UNTIL SHE GETS TO A PLACE WHERE A ROV RESIDES OR PLAN HER TRAVEL PLANS ACCORDINGLY.
WHATEVER NEXT? AN APP FOR EXAMINING ESROGIM LULOVIM,?
I bring my questional garments etc in a envelope that I drop off in the slot on Kingston with my phone number. He calls back later. What’s the issue of embarrassment?
This app is not a good idea for all the reasons others have mentioned. Way to easy for people to unintentionally transgress serious Halacha and spiritual issues.
Perhaps the developers of this app could refocus and help the embarrassed crowd by creating an Uber app service to pick up and drop off bedikas at the LOR.
Why are they embarrassed? They can send it in anonymously; they can send it with their husbands. It can be in an envelope. It can be given to the Rav’s wife to give it to him, if necessary. Where exactly is the awkwardness?
The same argument was applied when the eiruv was put up. “Better don’t use it, its there for those people who carry anyways at least they wont be nichshol and carry on Shabbos”. Bottom line is, what happened is that many people who i know personally that WOULD NEVER never carry on Shabbos, stating doing so, relying on the Eruv etc. What this will cause is that many people who normally go to a Rov will stop. The Yetzer Hora has now an excellent excuse: “Why shlep zich out in the freezing snowy night to go to a rov when… Read more »
I know for a fact that many women, especially those new to keeping T”HM are embarrassed about sending in clothes and underwear to a Rav to check. Don’t play coy and say you don’t understand that. Yes, it’s a mitzvah, no, that doesn’t make it not awkward. Can’t we agree that it’s preferable to use the app than to not consult a Rav at all?
And to everyone trying to compare bringing these to a Rav to going to the OBGYN, it’s not at all the same.
This is the exact reason that many women choose a FEMALE OB-GYN.
you dont want to be over on this aveira!
…says it all. It should be emblazoned at the top of every discussion of this and many other topics.
Thank you for your inquiry, To clarify (as this seems not to be clear): “Tahor” is meant to serve as a halachically approved “filter” for a majority of Shailos (many of which are straightforward and simple to determine). It is meant to allow those who may not have access to a rov, or who may not feel comfortable going to a rov, to have an option, when halachically viable, to send in their sample anonymously. What this app is not: This app IS NOT meant to be an umbrella replacement for the process of showing questionable bedikah cloths to Rabbonim.… Read more »
As a frum woman with great yiras shomayim and as an experienced photographer I would only recommend this in the most dire circumstances and with the approval of and in phone a consultation with my trusted Rabbi in each instance of need.
Even the most professionally produced photograph will appear different on every device and printer. Even the same photograph printed on the same printer will not render the same colors on different papers.
Not so long ago I went to my local chabad rabbi and he walked outside the building to the front entrance to look at my wife’s underwear. Before he did so I told it was not urgent and he could discard them. I was mortified and embarrassed and will not go back to him. Thank G-d no one walked in at that moment.
The flip side is, I do not pay him and am not a donor, so I don’t expect special treatment.
Not appropriate to even discuss this subject on such a public forum
Whatever happened to kevodah bas melech penimah
Certain things are better off not being discussed here
Children have easy access to this article
Have mercy on our children
And kids of all ages have to be exposed to this whole debate because…?
Not sure how a topic so private, got public exposure on a kids level in the first place….
From advertising about the app, to a public ban response, and a rhetoric to that, with everyone’s comments here, that little kids should not be privy to….
Its not possible for many working men to bring a shaala to a rav as fast as say a stay at home mother could
Zisa, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for all of your hard work and effort. No doubt, a tremendous amount of thought and effort has gone into putting this ap together.No doubt your intentions were tremendously honorable and highly comendable. If everyone could just sit back , for just a moment and reflect on the time frame of Jewish history that we are in….a time when we want to look to increase in ahavas chinom to offset the sinas chinom that was so prevelent at that time, causing the Churban. It is the job of the paskanim… Read more »
To scan STaM now to render their kashrut?
You seem so confident to use this app and if you live close to a Rov this app wasn’t made for you to use!! Perfect example of someone who shouldn’t use this app and will now use the app and is encouraging others to use it. The concept of this app is brilliant only we were given clear instructions that any questionable color needs to go to a rov. If ppl are travelling let them push off their mikvah date. Lets keep our standards for one of the most important mitzvohs to the highest standards. This is one of the… Read more »
Dear Zisa,
After reading forty opinions as well as your response, I feel it’s important for all women to know that:
1. One easily can hide one’s caller ID on many phones, if one prefers anonimity;
2. One needn’t give a Rabbi one’s name; and
3. The Rabbonim generally are perceptive, respectful and well aware of the many reasons it might be difficult to travel to their offices. They usually are excellent communicators and know what to ask or explain, thereby saving unnecessary trips.
only the creator of this app – by charging $ 3.99 per one time asking the Rabbi.
As it is hard to believe that those Rabbis are sharing profits in this app…
If the creator of this app – as the Rabbis connected to that app – would really mean to help… they would and should do this service for free, as any Rabbi is not charging if you go to ask him in person…
That’s shameful. You’re coming from a place of supposed open mindedness and progressiveness and you have no problem reading the worst into people’s intentions. As long as you can be open minded you’re willing to run over anybody and state that it’s obvious that they are running over others.
Shameful
The picture going around a couple of years ago of a dress. Is it gold? White? Blue? Everyone said a different colour
There seems to be a trend of anything that remotely helps women in halacha gets shut down in seconds but any possible heter for men and mashgichem….. Just stating the obvious.
Another invention of Torah-Lite. Stay tuned for our next Torah circumventing App!
May Hashem have mercy on us and send Moshiach now before we get steeper in this mud.
1. If a woman is somewhere without access to a Rov, she has a problem. Giving her incorrect answers doesn’t solve the problem. 2. If a woman has issues with TH, giving her incorrect information is not going to solve the problem. In both cases, I am reminded of what the Frierdike Rebbe said – When you are putting out a raging fire, you may not care if the water is pure, but you don’t use kerosene. 3. She claims that Rabbi Shuchat didn’t follow instructions. What makes her think that the people who are using this app will follow… Read more »
If one is considering to use this for emergency situations only..as you suggest its intent, and has a Rov comfortable paskening a shaala based on a pic, take a pic with your smartphone and send the pic to the Rov.
By formally incentivising communicating to the Rov through an app, it will bring people to using it automatically. Not a good idea. pic would accomplish same purpose.
Imagine sending a picture of a potentially life threatening growth or wound on your body to a doctor in a health app. Would you really trust the doctors opinion based on just a picture and never have it checked in person just in case?
We’re talking about an Issur KAREIS here, not whether lasagna is considered mezonos or hamoitzee.
And why on earth are the husbands not the ones bringing the shaylos??
Break it down…
If the rov who was matir the eiruv aser’s the app, you definitely should not use it, no matter who you are, because you can’t go rov shopping based on your convenience!
When buying clothing and trying to match a color to make a nice outfit, it’s dicey at best to try to do this based on an online color example/”swatch”. If one manages to find what truly seems to match the color needed, then once the garment is received, there’s at least a 50% chance the real garment’s color isn’t quite the shade it looks to be online. SO MUCH MORE SO for this app. I really wonder just how many Lubavitch Ravs are really enthusiastic proponents of this app being used toward this mitzvah, AT THE STATE THE TECHNOLOGY IS… Read more »
On one hand. the developers have a valid point; mainly, that women who do not yet keep taharas hamishpacha will be encouraged and feel more secure and confident doing so. On the other hand, who’s to ensure that women who DO keep it to the highest degree wont slack off and fall back onto this app? It would certainly tempt me… (If i was married and all) Conclusion: It’s a nice thought, a creative business idea, but it just does not suffice. At the end of the day, this will weaken yiras shamayim and it is not lifnim mishuras hadin,… Read more »
This didn’t sound right to me, but I’m waiting to hear the stands of more respected Rabbis before deciding if this is ok. How come in other frum circles they wouldn’t even think to formulate an opinion on this until they first hear from their Rabbonin. We should learn from their humility.
Just saying naaseh vnishma! First hear psak and then give your opinions.
Now that this app is out, some women that went to the rov till now, will stop!! (Because now there is a more convenient way to get the answer) 2. Not all phones have the same camera every phone is different. 3. Not all phones have the same variety of (display) color (a.k.a RGB) 4. It not only light that makes a difference it also shadow 5. “for example if a woman is traveling”, if you are traveling and you get a wound even if you’re going to send a picture to your doctor it might help a little but… Read more »
Oh wow this app is long overdue, what a great, kosher, and convenient way to keep such a beautiful mitzvah!!
Dear Zisa, If you can say “Baruch Hashem!” through all of this with total faith in Hashem, so many blessings will come. The Abishter KNOWS your intentions. Not being familiar with all the details regarding your instructions to women when taking and sending a photo, I wonder if smart phones are universally calibrated to consistently and ACCURATELY represent color. My personal experience when sending a friend paint chip samples photographed with my phone and then messaged to her phone (which was the same model!) was that this is NOT the case. Perhaps light settings can calibrate light levels, but not… Read more »
This idea is worse than the shobbos light swich
The fact that someone could so easily “game” the app should be of enormous concern to anyone who actually cares about TH. It’s like with security – security pros will tell you that if it’s easy to break a locking method, you might as well not use it. All it does is provide a false sense of security, and that’s extremely dangerous.
Too many ifs here! Go to a rav! Call a rav! Need not be so explicit here for all to read! Some discretion is advisable. A time and place for every discussion
Since when are 3 Rabbis (including a Chabad Rabbi who wrote a sefer on the topic) not enough? How many do you need to be “convinced”
What do you mean by local? I don’t see anywhere on that app that said it was made specifically for CH.
I love how an app developer is confident enough to shoot down a Rav’s opinion. Strange times we live in…
I was under the impression that the husband takes the bedika cloth to the Rav.
Yup. Sure seems like it’s geared to the dial-a-heter crowd.
To those who want to pull the “too embarrassed too see a Rav, tell me, but there were no other times, like your first visit to your ob/gyn I’m sure you felt lots of bushah.
The first time you called a Rav and told him you stirred your chulent with a milchig spoon, you were embarrassed too.
It’s just part of life.
So the app. You are a married woman and can’t shy away from halacha
I will definitely be using the app in the future, and recommend many of my friends to as well
It states above that the app was created to accommodate women who do not ask or cannot ask. Last i checked, the Pesach Seder involves four sons one of whom doesn’t know how to ask. There are many women who don’t ask, so their husbands should ask. What does it mean that they are too far to ask, the telephone solved that issue a long time ago. And to the guy who said that those who use the eruv use the app, this Rabbi Shuchat permitted the use of the eruv and he prohibits this app – not so fast.
photo colors can be very off. with flash one color no flash another.
just look at these filters we have, slightly yellowish slightly orange…just taking the photo at a different angle it will be darker
you gotta be kidding…
With all due respect to the Chabad Rabbi endorsing this, he is not a Rov More horaah with shimush.
Another invention of Torah-Lite. Stay tuned for our next Torah circumventing App!
May Hashem have mercy on us and send Moshiach now before we get steeper in this mud.
I think the tahor app is a amazing idea, and it helps woman around the world…
And what do u prefer? Woman asking through a tahor app or not doing it at all?
It does say that if the picture is too hard to tell then u should reach a rabbi.
So its not like they guess, if they dont know exactly, they tell you to go to a rabbi.
Thats my opinion although i respect and understand the position of other is still stand with the app
If you are so convinced this is permitted according to Halacha why don’t you get more rabbis behind your cause.. local rabbis at that..
Not sure what the solution is, but this holy and private topic should not be discussed so openly on such a forum.
The appropriate response to Rabbi Shuchat would be to have your endorsing rabbis respond and address the issues point blank – not to have the creator answer from an emotional perspective.
Side point: Is this basically Tinder for Nidda? Rabbis swipe right for Tahor and left for Tamei…
Ok I’m going to solve the issue completely since we’re already making Halacha technology. Let’s make bedika clothes that are made with automatic answers to shailah.
Like a pregnancy test only a bedika cloth. You insert the cloth and when you take it out, it gives an answer on the spot! Who’s in? If it doesn’t sound good it’s because certain Halacha is part of asking a rav. Forsure it’s uncomfortable sometimes but you know what, it’s from this uncomfort that we receive brochois. Great idea though
Anyone that knows anything from anything. knows that this is a nice dream but NOT Possible!
No Yiray Shomayim would give any agreement to this.
This will most likely be a michshol than anything else.
especially that it may be (some cases/shitas) an isur of yahhrog viall yaavor.
be very careful of anyone even thinking you agree with this!
…Hopefully this will be possible one day…. for now lets be thankful we have the capability of shipping!
Does it state clearly and explicitly on the app that it is only meant to be used “bishas hadchak”? (Not that it’ll help but at least then the creator can claim he is trying to listen to the rabbis)
If what she says is the case, why isn’t there a disclaimer on the advertising of the app? 1. “Tahor App was created with the help of prominent Rabbonim to alleviate this discomfort in a unique and innovative way.” 2. Q. When should I use Tahor App? A. “When you have a question regarding a potential Niddah stain, Tahor app will connect you with a Taharat Hamishpacha Expert to determine whether the stain in question is Tahor or not.” 3. “First, it’s important to remember that this app is intended only to help women who do not or cannot ask… Read more »
Just like every baby boy – a mohel has to first SEE the baby to determine it’s color, so too a bedikah must be shown to a rav to Paskan!!
What will be next???
An app to show your Tefillin & Mezuzhas for a Sofer – because you live too far to send them to a local sofer.
A Rav can’t give a Pesak through modern technology – One has to actually see it – to determine of what status it actually is!
It breaks down to..,
If you use Eruv you use app
Your arguments do not convince me, an unmarried woman who is not yet keeping Taharas Hamishpocha. Instead of strengthening the mitzva, as you claim to be, you may actually be weakening it. Technology cannot ever take the place of the human judge who sees firsthand evidence in the way the Mesorah spells out, which is to see the actual cloth. As for your claim that it is anonymous–so is the system put into place by rabbonim at batei din who use a numbering system. As for embarassment–are women embarassed at the doctor? They go for healing and even prevention. Where… Read more »
YOU SHOULD KEEP QUIET AND LET THE RABBI WHO GAVE PERMISSION TO ANSWER INSTEAD OF BEING CHUTZPO TO A ROV MOIRE OIROO 2. SHOWING THAT IS POSSIBLLE TO DISAGREE AN HALACHIC TOPIC AGAINST A ROV WITHOUT HAVING THE LIMUD AND SHIMUSH AND OF COURSE THE AUTORITHY 3 YOU ARE NOIGEA BADOVOR
Being far away, one can still use Fed-X.
Never heard of Rabbis asking over the phone; what kind of rabbis are these?
sounds like the lady has to act partly as the Rav here, taking the picture herself. When she shows it to a Rav, he puts it where he wants in the right at the correct angle. It sounds like bending the Torah.
While the concept of the app’s creation is meaningful and well-intended, the reality is that the nature of this important mitzvah (being private and personal) can be uncomfortable. While Tahor ‘completely encourages all women to bring bedikas to their rav,’ they cannot discern if the woman using the app is one who would otherwise not ask the shaala, resulting most certainly in many women using the app who even the Tahor team do not advise to use it versus visiting their rov. I’m bh on Shlichus: getting shaalos to a rov is sometimes uncomfortable, and most often inconvenient, and I… Read more »