So the conversation usually begins with:
1) “Are you a friend of so-and-so?” – “Hello! I am on his reference list so I guess I am a friend.”
Following your request for me to give a five minute monologue, including the dirtiest secrets of my good friend, I will probably proceed to say:
2) “Ask me! – I’m not very good at describing people, but if you ask me questions, I can probably do a fair job answering them.”
You will then proceed to ask a sheepish question or two, leading up to if I know what kind of girl he is looking for, to which I will respond:
3) Remember, I’m a guy – I may be his roommate but that doesn’t mean I know what type of girl he’s looking for, or what he would like to do with his future.
If you’d like to know how he likes his meat cooked, well done or medium rare, that I can tell you!
Bochurim are obviously willing to answer your calls and questions:
4) You can call me till late at night, but please don’t call me before 11 in the morning, I’m usually busy with sleeping, mikvah, shachris, etc.
Then the serious questions begin to flow and the pauses between answers get longer too:
5) When I tell you that I don’t sit near him during Seder, and would therefore not know how his attendance is, that probably means that he or I don’t regularly come.
No conversation is complete without asking the mandatory one in number 6.
6) “Is he chassidish?” – If you don’t define what the word “chassidish” means in YOUR dictionary, then I’ll just tell you “yes”, because he is “chassidish” according to at least one person’s definition of the word.
Connected to that is number 7.
7) If I don’t explicitly say that he Davens “on time” (i.e. before 12 noon), then that probably means that he has no problem with Davening right before (or even after) shkiah.
It is around out about then that occurrence number 8 happens.
8) I know you’re able to multi-task, but when I hear how you’re working on getting supper ready, and there’s a kid in the background shrieking “Mommy, Mommy!” I know that you’re not really listening to what I’m saying, so I just won’t say much.
With the Chassidish formalities out of the way, obviously Chassidishkeit before middos and kindness, then it’s time to get to the dirty secrets.
9) Uh, he’s my friend… – Are you really expecting me to say something negative about him?!
Well now that you know that there is not much negative to him, you begin to ask about his substance exploits to which I divulge:
10) If I don’t think that he’ll still be getting drunk after he’s married, then I’ll tell you that he doesn’t drink more than four. If I’m not sure that he’ll give up his “farbrenging” once he’s married, then I’ll just have to redefine to myself what the size of each of those four L’chaims are.
The questions begin to get vague:
11) “What would you say is his most pronounced מידה?” – Please, if you want a Chassidus shiur on each of the עשר ספירות I can try to give that to you, but if all you want to know is whether he’s more kind than unkind, then just ask that!
After they get vague they lean towards the ridiculous:
12) “If he was right for your sister, would you suggest him?” – Uh, what’s that supposed to mean? Obviously if I thought he was right for my sister I would suggest him!
And then it’s time to probe for the negative again:
13) “What’s his biggest חיסרון?” – I know that this is considered a “good” question but, a) refer back to #9 and b) even if I do say something, chances are I’d spin it so that it can also come out to be a מעלה.
The questioning hasn’t been going so well, so it’s time to reveret to some assumptions:
14) When you ask me, “So basically you’re telling me that he’s an amazing guy?”, I’ll tell you you “yup”, but what I would really love to answer is “No, what I’m telling you is that you don’t know how to ask questions!”
15) Ask me how I think he would react in specific situations, you’ll probably get a much better understanding of the type of guy that he is.
16) Attention parents! – I’ll probably tell my friend that someone called about him, and I’ll tell him what I thought of YOU!
Yes, I know it’s not fair to judge a girl based on how her parents sounded on the phone, but life isn’t always fair…
Besides for the obvious lessons in 15 and 16, it is probably worth your while calling someone not on the reference paper.
P.S. This is not a call for incessant spewings of nastiness and distaste. In the right spirit, this is a positive and light look at a very serious matter.
Thank you. Well said and practical piece of advise.
I am the type to say what I mean and mean what I say. There’s nothing more aggravating when someone calls me as a reference and keeps trying to probe and probe based on my tone of voice. Some people are great salespeople and will try to convince the caller how wonderful the person is. I may hold highly of someone but not praise them to the skies because it’s just not my style. If you don’t know me and the way I communicate why are you reading into what I said, what I didn’t say and how I said… Read more »
We are waiting…..
And to #85, I could not agree more!
the spelling in these comments
srry but my husband is both – so dont make ppl feel like they need to make a choice… this whole bochur / no schedule thing and all the excuses that come along with it is just so irresponsible… wake up and get with the program of the real world… maybe if bochurim live reality younger there will be more success in ch instead of just survival, foodstamps, medicaid… but that won’t happen in the bochur bubble / mentality of wake up when you want and daven when you want and by then the day is over and you accomplished… Read more »
very cute
touch’e!!!! we ALL need to laugh more. i wrote something similar to 33 and might post it soon on col. may EVERYONE who needs find their Moshiachdike Bashert immediately in a very easy way
I am a girl, and seder and davening are important to me. The reason they are so important is because for a bochur, that is his main focus of his day. If they are priorities, and he does it “right”, chances are that when he has a family and his priorities shift, he will be able to do them properly.
Additionally, being besudar and disciplined is important to me, because being on time and scheduled is important to my future in terms of being able to rely on someone.
Oy that is horrible.
essentially it has nothing to do with the question, and the answer to the question. it’s all about how you answer…
i am comment 30 u can email me at [email protected]
lolololol
brilliant!
Go for it!!!! ( in a kosher way of course) YH”R shetishre shchinah bmaasei yedeichem. If initial email communication appears positive then ask a married chaver or relative to be the shadchan (if you feel it will be advantageous.)
handwriting analysis. it’s the only way.
Ultimately the dater has to make his own decision, but, reliable references can help avoid alot of wasted time and heartache because if not for them, the boy/girl would have to go out with every single “seemingly appropriate” suggestion.
if its not beshert it wont come to be, but guys, girls still have some dignity and feelings do’nt string eachother along and then say its not 4 me. Be realistic, its not like in the movies.
ur so funny!
did i bash learning or davening with a minyan at all?
i just metioned that someone who who has a hard time with keeping seder, or who doesnt have the zitsfleish to sit for 16 hours learning and nothing else alday, usualy doesnt display the greatest middos,
of course learning torah is important and i believe it to be the foundation of a true bayis neemon as well
Yidden have always expressed the importance in learning.. who are you do bash 5,000 of our tradition.
Besides the fact that you obviously have issues (or jealousy?) of those who learn, bc there are many amazing Bochurim who are learners…
Loved the comments. #4, #33 and #55, you made me laugh so hard.
GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!
with all the craziness in the world of shidduchim, u gotta see the humor in all of it, so thanks!
be careful, cuz they may be calling about “ur friend” when all they want to hear is you! g’luck!
This is part of their Hasgocha Protis. You played one minor part in it They might or might not have listened to u. Above all , their issues are NOT ur fault. If anything, u can be a guidance for them and refer them to the better and understanding Councilors, Mashpiem and Rabbonim available.
You can and should refer them NOW!
I am comment 17. U can email me at [email protected] to arrange something.
ask about kos, kaas and kees.
kos – drink
kaas – anger
kees – pocket
translated into questions:
have you ever seen him drunk? is he responsible? reliable? pls give examples? what is he like socially?
how does he react when he’s upset? what gets him upset? (everyone gets upset!)
is he generous? (with gelt, with helping ppl) is he considerate? can you give an example?
hatzlacha!
ps we LAUGHED reading #33!! so clever!
Hmm sounds like your a little jaded. Instead of writing stupid articles, maybe you should put your time into something a little bit more productive like finding a job or getting a life!
I am already married. Sorry. I guess with these questions I was able to find the right girl…
Yes, you didn’t cause a churban, if the person decided to marry someone that is their choice not yours.
To #39 and all comments with that same idea:
Isn’t that what the point of a date is, to figure out whether this is a good shidduch for you or not, and not to just go ahead and get married b/c you heard good things on the phone from the references?!
If I’m wrong, please explain!
The author was not making fun of research he was making fun of blind research, when people ask questions for the sake of asking and don’t really know what they want to hear or how to get the answers.
The solutions is to first know what’s individually important to you and then ask questions (like 51 nd suggested) that will give you an idea of the person.
Don’t ask for labels or judgement, ask about scenarios.
get a life and stop commenting visit me @
getalifewhenuknowwhatthatreallymeandtouboredppl.org.au
How can I say “I don’t know” when I am the bochur’s roommate and chavrusa?! Does he snore at night? Truth is – yes, but “I don’t know!” Is he a bed wetter? Truth is – yes, but “I don’t know!” Is he on meds? Truth is – at least 6 pills a day, but “I don’t know!” Is he considerate to his roommate? Truth is he usually opens light in room no matter what time it is or who is sleeping, and then listens to Matisyahu without earbuds, but “I don’t know!” This is who used me as his… Read more »
#33 I have a daughter you might be interested in. Please email [email protected]
Good one
I see there’s hope. Such a smart and toichendikke comment. I don’t know who you are but I am proud to have you part of Chabad!!! Thank you
That was funny!
. Doing proper research is a very serious matter and must be done properly to be effective. Viacharei Kichlois Hakol, say a Kapitel Tehilim and of course write into the Rebbe for a brocho for the whole shiduch parsha. Do not rely just on the friends given as references. Ask one or two of those references who they would say know him well and call them. Call up to the Yeshivois where he learned. The camps that he went to as a staff member. The yeshiva where he spent his shlichus year. The various shluchim or shluchois that he assisted.… Read more »
Number 33 you are so funny!
thats realy realy funny!!!!!
wish was more questions- for me to lough more
All jokes aside, can someone who knows, comment on what the halacha is on telling the truth and how to tell it. I don’t think lying for a shidduch is appropriate.
You are %100 right!
the problem is that people out there dont understand bochrim, they should be speaking to the bochurs mashpiim and roshie yeshivas more, and finding out about his hashkofes and yiras shomayim from an objective perspective, and even they will tell u that being makpid on minyan and seder is not the most important thing! and as u say it will kick in after marriage anyhow
It’s nice to see a humorous approach to the “shidduch crisis”.
As a on and off shadchan I can tell you that the best way to find out about someone, is to get your relative bochur/girl to find a mutual friend that can get the info. No one says the truth to strangers. A few questions I like to ask: I don;t care much for chsidishkeit, that’s easy to confirm. I’m more concerned about midos and attitude. Does he/she dominate the conversation? Are they strong minded/opinionated? Figure out a way to ask if they have a short fuse? Are they the type to pay for friends when they go out (generous).… Read more »
When I call you, a bochur from the references – I am checking YOU out: To see if you can hold a conversation? To see if you are polite (to a total stranger bothering him)? To see if you have “attitude”, snarkiess, impatientce, derech eretz, mentchlichkeit etc.?
The questions I ask you are not noygeya – it’s how YOU speak and interact.
I have 3 daughters who found their shidduchim by me calling the references and being impressed with the bochur from the references!!
This was humorous, but to everyone bashing the references, what do you suggest? The point is, just try to be as truthful as possible…If your friend put you down its because they obviously trust you enough that they think you can give truthful intelligent answers that can help mold their future life, don’t take that so lightly! Its a big achrayos…
Well said. I also know many fine Lubavitcher men who as bochurim of age of marriage (22-23) were not makpid on exact time of davening and minyonim and learning etc. and shortly after they were married began keeping seder, davening with minyonim and learning at early morning Shiurim. Don’t forget a bochur at 22-23 can still be immature and sleep in late but he has strong hashkofos and strong foundation but is human and may not keep a perfect Seder. Instead focus on middos and him being a mentch….if he has a solid foundation the other stuff will kick in… Read more »
I had a great laugh-thanks man!
The questions I get asked about my friends are so rediculous sometimes that I wonder why people even bother calling me to ask them!
Oh…and then there are the people who turn everything you say around to make it sound like what they want/don’t want to hear.
quite comical!
I think many people are joking about the idea of refrences, and are not appreciating the true value of a reference.
In my experience people ALWAYS lie and say what they think you want to hear…leading unfortunately to many unhappy marriages and R”L divorces.
People, please remember you have a responsibility to tell the truth.
The friends don’t realize that there are no “right” answers – so they are best telling the truth. Is he chassidish? Lie and say “Yup” and you may have killed the perfect shidduch because the girl is also totally very non-chassidish. Same with, Does he watch movies, listen to non-Jewish music and read non-Jewish novels? You DON’T know what the “right” answer is, and its usually not the one you think it is, so best: Keep it real! And if you DO know something that you don’t want to mention, at the very least tell them to ask others out… Read more »
There has got to be a better way! Maybe the minhag of Tu b’Av should be restored…… The truth is that the mothers are ruining shidduchim with their nonsensical questions and unrealistic expectations. Know who your son / daughter really is, and really needs. Keep the questions to a minimum.
This is so perfect! My personal favorite is 16!
I do the same when people call me! (in a nice way)
When I call a bochur for references – I am checking HIM out, to see if he can hold a conversation, is polite (to a total stranger bothering him) etc. I have 3 daughters who found their shidduch by me calling the reference and being impressed with him.
Dear parents/shadchanim:
So you want us to be truthful?! If we tell you the truth about everything then you’ll NEVER find “Mr. Perfect”. At least now, (thanks to our little “cover-ups”) every now and then you think you’ve found “Mr. Perfect”…as if such a thing really exists.
Coming from someone who never thought I would go through the shiduch system, this is hilarious and helps embrace the craziness of this whole shiduch situation.
I made this list for my sister, that she should ask about ay girl that comes up for me. This is just a sampling. 1. does she use toothpaste with a hechsher or without? what about tylenol? 2. what brocho does she make on rice? 3. what milchig company does she eat? only badatz? golden flow? cholov akum? 4. does she add salt to hot soup on shabbos? 5. does she eat in restaurants that don’t have mashgiach temidi (like all CHK establishments)? 6. do her parents use a blech with the crockpot or not? i.e. is there aluminum foil… Read more »
mad funny!
we are not looking for a contest winner , we’re looking for the one person who will suit our son/daughter, so please don’t just answer what you think we want to hear. You don’t have to say anything negative, but stick to saying the truth in the nicest way possible. (There’s gotta be a better way- how about shidduchim by raffle- or match them up by shoe sizes?)
i love your attitude
very mature and understanding
i would love to get married to someone like u,
who has such a positive attitude towards lifes challenges
“if u cant fight it embrace it”
please tell me you’re single….i have a very nice girl for you NO QUESTIONS ASKED
Us girls get the same ridiculous questions… does she say chitas? does she wear nail polish? who the he*l cares? And so funny, the minute we get married we start getting all the calls. As if, somehow, the fact that we happen to be married makes our statement more credible. I mean, come on, just because I got married last week, doesn’t mean I think something different of the girl. My answers to ridiculous questions pretty much remain the same, regardless of marital status. Oh, and when you ask generic questions, you get generic answers. So you end up hearing… Read more »
I think a real friend will tell everything necessary to avoid anything not good (I agree with #16)
😉
Brilliant.
stop asking us how the girl you are looking into compares to _________________(insert another random girls name) THEY DONT COMPARE!!! they are not the same people!!!!!! its the most ridiculous question, and i get asked it time and time again
You are absolutely cluless. You think you read between the lines. You think you know. I’ll just say one thing: you have no idea how much of a joke this reference bussines has become amongst bochurim. They sit and compare how dumb the questions are, and how to take dumb peope like yourself for a ride. Good luck listening to the “way we answer”
brilliant!
120% true.
Yesss. Dontt ask chisronos of our friends. Why would we tell u!???????
humor is about acting out the character or observing with exaggeration and that is the way how the article was written
great job LOL
and now i would like to probe a question. so, mr. author, what should parents do to get an idea of a bochur?
loved itttttt
I’m a single girl and that’s exactly how my mom does research. I think it makes perfect sense that my ‘shiddy’ life is hopeless according to that. I still believe that the right guy will come at the right time regardless of how my mother goes about things. There’s not much I can do about it anyways, so why stress out and try to control it or change the way she thinks guys should be researched. I officially don’t take any of her suggestions or dates seriously, for me its one big joke but hey, thats life, embrace, don’t try… Read more »
a real chaver WILL tell you the emes, simply bc if he is a true friend, he does not want chas vesholom bad outcomes (vda”l) there for a real friend will say the truth.
and I’m talking from experiens!!
I give a description of the bochur including good and bad but all with a positive spin. Instead of saying the guy has no “zitz-fleish”, I say that he loves to be involved in lots of things. Instead of saying someone is “moody”, I say he is “sensitive”. Instead of saying “he’s not capable”, I’ll say “he’s not a director type.”
At the end of one conversation like this, a mother of a girl exclaimed “wow! he sounds perfect for my daughter!”
And now they’re married.
Of course davening on time and keeping seder in yeshivah is an important factor but: Wouldn’t you rather want your daughter to marry a kind and loving guy with good middos and talents rather than a dull guy who always davens on time and with a minyan and learns with great hasmode? I dont want to judge anyone, but the bochrim who are extremely makpid about minyan and seder etc, are usually the ones who are lacking fine midos and talents, and you can ask any bochur and most mashpiim in yeshivas about that. As a matter of fact, i… Read more »
lol
yea like that make sense!
but still real funy!
#5 is the best
for someone to write up some questions- a bunch that people can use and personalize to their needs. Fact is, some people are better at asking questions than others and some parents are clueless but it falls on their shoulders so they do what they have to do, even though they are not sure what/how to ask to figure out what they want to know.
If some people can put together a type of well written questions that these inexperienced parents can use, it would be a big chessed!
Dont quit your day job.
would be hilarious!!
I agree, please stop bothering bouchrim.
They are not going to tell you the truth anyway.
Absolutely loved the humour – obviously exaggerated, but that’s what humour is about – nice nice ! brought smiles and laughs
Hi bochur, I absolutely loved your article and think you would love my daughter. Your personalities would definitely click. Can you please put your info online?
Cute!
Hilarious!
We are not fools! We are reading between the lines. We can tell by the way “you” answer (your enthusiasm) if the bocher is takeh nice, keeping seder, chassidish, etc. We can also tell if he has nice friends-thanks to the way you handle my call!