By Shimona Tzukernik, The Kabbalah Coach
(Details about individuals and events have been changed to protect the privacy of others)
At the risk of drumming up some enmity, I want to talk about…talking…in shul. In a recent post about an Agitated Woman at the Kotel, I related my encounter with a woman who told G-d, “I feel like I’m talking to the wall!” but who was actually talking to Him. Yes, truly praying.
Davening is difficult. The term avodah she’belev, “service of the heart”, is spot on. We are working on ourselves and our connection with G-d. I personally have found tefillah to be a challenging mitzvah. I get that others might feel uninspired because I often do. We all have our moments –whether at the Kotel or in shul – when it seems we’re “talking to the wall”. Now, coming out of the inspiration of Tishrei, is an appropriate time to reflect on the quality of our davening and how we can help ourselves to make prayer more meaningful and alive.
A few illustrative stories
My intention is not to offend. That said, if previous reactions to a request for quiet in shul is anything to go by, I anticipate strong emotions in response to the (apparently audacious) assertion that there’s too much chatter in our shuls.
Years ago I sat in shul in the row ahead of two women. At least one of them was a woman of renown – an educator. I didn’t know the woman who sat beside her and turned out to be her sister. Granted both were from out of town yet theirs was typical of local conduct. Throughout shacharis they chatted. A few times I motioned to them to please be quiet, particularly at krias hatorah. Eventually I turned and asked the woman I knew that in her capacity as an educator she ‘walk the talk’ and be quiet. That seemed to work.
When davening ended, fellow congregants mutedly thanked me. (Inside they were seething. Yet they hadn’t voiced their opinion. That however is a topic for another time.) I had moved to the front of the shul and was saying tehillim. To my surprise, the macher’s sister tapped me on the shoulder. I turned and smiled at her. Honestly I thought she was approaching me to offer an apology. For my part, I was fully ready to thank her for quieting down. Oish, was I naïve. Could not have been more wrong. She hadn’t come to apologize at all but rather to tell me how “disgusting” and “low” it was of me to “harass” her and her sister and to have demonstrated disrespect to the latter who was (after all) a renowned educator. Then, as an afterthought for good measure, she added, “And you’re practically naked! How dare you ask someone to be quiet dressed that way!?”
You can’t make this stuff up. I was, to say the least, surprised. Not only did she demonstrate zero ownership of the imposition their conversation had had on others around them but she reprimanded me to boot. (I found her derision acerbically ironic. Just that morning, on the way out the house, the thought had occurred to me that I was grateful for my outfit – which to me was both beautiful and tznius! Maybe I was wrong.) Her retort made no sense to me at all. Had her main point just been that one lack on my part (assuming there was one with my dress) denied me the privilege to pray in a quiet and focused environment?! Her logic defies me. If so, a lack in one arena would disqualify us from attempting to improve in another. Her comment embodied the very opposite of “A little light dispels a lot of darkness”, “Ma’alin bekodesh”, “If you know Alef, teach it” or any of the other life-affirming, celebratory approaches of the Rebbe we live by.
I wasn’t about to have a philosophical discussion with her and so collected myself and apologized for any ill feeling. Without a word she spun on her heels and, had there been dust on the ground, walked off in a way that would have kicked up quite a cloud.
Another time. Another shul. Shavuos to be exact. Despite the Holiday, there was a continuous stream of talking during davening, even during kriah. This particular shul has various strong female members. One had repeatedly asked the women sitting in an adjacent space to be quiet. Her requests didn’t change a thing. Finally, as we approached chamishi – the Ten Commandments – I went over to the chatterniks and asked that if they wanted to talk that they please go outside. And if they wanted to take part in Krias Hatorah to please be quiet.
I could not have possibly imagined the backlash. After shul, one Mama took up the battle cry outside the building.
“You tinkh’ yew’ra big spEEkuh?!” she boomed. “You’re a nuttingh! A nuttingh!!” Thus the tirade began. She went on like that for a while such that people came to their windows and onto the street to check out what the commotion was about.
The last time I (gingerly) asked someone to be quiet during davening she told me I didn’t belong in that shul.
I’m not the only one troubled by the state of affairs. A friend of mine told me she once asked someone to be quiet during Kriah on Rosh Hashana. Not wanting to embarrass the person she said, “You know you’re not allowed to daven during keriah.” Their reply? “Don’t worry, we’re not davening.” Her request for silence also morphed into a megilla and later, a relative of the gal told her, “People don’t like to be told what to do!” Well, apparently not. Not even when they are violating Halacha in a way that impinges upon others in a public space. How big have we gotten?
I remind myself of the story of the Chassid who told the Tzemach Tzedek that wherever he was in shul, people were stepping on him. The Rebbe’s response was, “If you didn’t spread yourself out all over the shul, others wouldn’t step on you.” I love the story and use it as an ongoing reminder to myself in my avodah. Honestly though, I don’t think asking for quiet qualifies as “spreading oneself out all over the shul.” To the contrary, isn’t it the voice of the speaker which spreads out all over? Even if it’s not the commitment to tefilla that prompts quiet, wouldn’t our notorious devotion to ahavas Yisroel suffice?
What’s the reason behind our kibitzing?
There are other reasons but it seems to me that there are primarily two reasons behind our kibitzing:
1: We think of prayer as a mitzva of action or speech divorced of an inner, heart-centered and personal dynamic
Firstly, we don’t seem to know how to daven. Of course I don’t mean how to go through the motions. For the most part we know when to sit or stand, how to bow and the like. I’m talking about our not buying in to the inner dynamics of prayer. We don’t honestly feel we’re conversing with G-d. We feel we’re talking to the wall. I once read that someone asked Reb Reuven Dunin if he had davened. He answered, “If you mean did I turn the pages, then yes.” I should only turn the pages as he did but truth be told, we’re at best turning the pages. We’re not conversing with G-d from our kishkes. For many we don’t even understand the words we’re saying (something I’ll address in another article.) And when “The Wall” feels too impervious, we quit and chat to the person near us – who at least responds! And talks our language!
2: We are attached to externalities and “matter over form” – to the point that we’re too “sophisticated” to “wage war” on the body and Yetzer Hora
Secondly, prayer involves hishpashtus hagashmiyus – literally “divesting oneself of one’s corporeality” or “loosening our attachment to our bodies and materiality”. That’s super difficult at the best of times. How much more so is that the case today! We encounter constant messages that our body is of primary importance. Consciously and obliquely we’re encouraged to have matter dominate form and the body dominate the soul. How can the modern person hope to pray at all like a mensch, like a yid, let alone a chassid when our consciousness is inundated with thoughts that are antithetical to the path of prayer?
There is one other point I’d like to mention tangentially. The laws of a sanctuary (exclusively designated for prayer) are different from those of a Beis Midrash. For example, in the former there are restrictions on eating or embracing but in the latter not. In Crown Heights we don’t really have “sanctuaries” that are uniquely set aside for davening, a separate room for classes, and a hall where food is served. Our shuls serve as multi-purpose spaces. They’re alive and dynamic in a very special way.
About a year ago, I had occasion to speak at a Young Israel shul in Boston. The sanctuary was so beautiful I was inspired to stay on for a little while when congregants filed out for the brocha. The lighting, the colors, the windows all blended into a rarified whole that inspired worship. The beauty and peace – and the cleanness – supported the kedusha of the space. It elevated my davening.
Sitting in the Boston sanctuary, it struck me that maybe the fact that our shuls are in some respect comfortable living spaces (and in some rare cases even “home” to individuals who don’t have one to call their own) creates a familiarity which allows for more talking in shul. I’m not sure. Might this have something to do with the disregard with which we shrug off of the words of Shulchan Aruch?
Those words are weighty and clear. “The sanctity of the synagogue and the House of Study is very great and we are urged to fear the One Who dwells in them, blessed is His name. This is learned from the verse (Leviticus 19:30), ‘You should have deep respect for My sanctuary.’…As such, it is forbidden to participate in gossip or to make any calculations except those pertaining to religious matter there ….” And that’s not even addressing speaking during prayer! In regards to Krias haTorah we are told, “During the reading of the Torah, it is forbidden to indulge in conversation, even regarding matters of the Law, and even between the calling-up of persons.” (I couldn’t not find an online Chabad resource for the laws of davening in shul. This link is clear and useful.)
The situation invites us to improve. Isn’t it remarkably significant that the Alter Rebbe concludes the entire Tanya with a heartfelt request for prayer with intention? He writes, “‘You shall reprove your comrade’— even one hundred times. Therefore I cannot contain myself and refrain from crying out again, in a voice betraying weakness. I plead with you, out of deep compassion have mercy on your souls. Take care, be painstaking to an extreme concerning Torah and the service of the heart which is worship with kavana, proper intention. All should begin in unison, as one, word by word, not one here and another elsewhere, one mute and the other idly chatting— may G‑d protect us. (Tanya, Kuntres Acharon, Essay 9)
When we talk in shul we display basic disrespect for G-d and for one another. Even if it’s just out of Ahavas Yisrael, let’s work on talking less in shul as well as cultivating the ability to accept respectful, thoughtful feedback even when it isn’t supportive of what we’re doing? Let’s stop talking to each other during zman tefila and start talking to G-d. And let’s not only talk to G-d but listen to and for Him too. It’s certain to enrich our conversations and relationships with others too.
I hope my reflection on our collective shortfall is received as an invitation to grow. If I fall short, at the very least this should give you something to talk about in shul.
In Part 2 of this article, I will put forward some suggestions for making prayer meaningful.
Shimona, well said. My thoughts exactly. I wrote a blog about this in the lead up to Rosh Hashanah…..
https://estheralthaus.wordpress.com/2016/09/23/thoughts-from-a-reformed-shule-talker/
When in a public space – a space dedicated to a particular purpose – in this instance, a shul – it is important for individuals (those that chatter) where they are and when they are. They are not home; they are not in a restaurant; they are not in a park. Chattering away when people are talking to and honoring G-d is entirely disrespectful and that behavior is unacceptable. There is nothing wrong with having to remind these chatterers where they are and what is understood in terms of the meaning of where they are.
It just seems when I learn a line or two from the parsha, before I leave for shul, the action sets the stage for me, to be present when I get there.
I read Shimona Tzuckernik’s passage and your readers’ comments with especial interest because by Divine Providence this week my book Sea Traveler ,which deals with this very subject,goes on sale,published by Kehos, for the first time.Please read it if you want an authentic Chabad perspective on the whole subject of distraction and concentration during davvening. In a nutshell it’s not enough to know the laws of Tefilla nor to devise methods to motivate people to hold back from talking in shul. We need methods to enable us not to want to talk during davvening. The only way, which is the… Read more »
Beautifully written! I’m with Shimona on this 1000%.
In my shul it is the opposite. The men are talking and shmoozing and creating the disturbance. This is from the most “important” to the least “important” person. The women are quiet and respectful. I am about to change shuls for this reason. Very sad state of affairs.
Agreed!! the alter rebbe’s words should be enlarged and posted in every shul….
I am sure it will give pause to most of the ‘talkers’.
Come to chabad of the five towns…..NO TALKING!!
I always talk in shul – but ONLY to Hashem. And all the women who daven in my shul (ok, just 99.9% of them) do NOT talk in shul. We have the great zechus of answering Baruch Hu u’varuch Shemo and Amein during Chazoras Hashatz, and Amein yehei shemei raba in kaddish which tears up all harsh decrees. We have the zechus of answering Amein to the brachos before and after each aleyah, and we can actually hear every word of kreiah and haftorah. We have the zechus of ahavas Yisroel by allowing each other to daven without disturbance. Davenning… Read more »
What about when someone has to say kaddish? It’s so disrespectful to the person trying to say this for his loved one.I just don’t understand why people can’t just be quiet. There’s plenty of time to socialize during the kiddush.
Great author! You remind me of your son 🙂 (I’ve heard him give a talk)
Secondly: great points, I totally agree.
And TO NUMBER 1: SHE NEVER MENTIONED 770 IN A STORY.
P.S. A shout out to (at least the men) in 770 for not talking during kriah! A huge kiddush shaym Lubavitch (even if you spend the rest of the time talking) and shows, especially the kids, true respect for the Torah.
Honestly for me and most at least semi normal people, it’s all in how you ask. I used to daven in a Chabad shul where it was common for certain members to yell at and publicly humiliate women who were talking. Also let’s get real here -some chastise others for talking but then they themselves talk when they feel like it. lastly we just have to know thqt we live in a generation that is consumed by ego and so mamesh can’t handle even the most gentle criticism.
I recently started going to my class shul. It opened up this year. we are all happy to see each other especially since there is not so many chances to socialize as a newly married guy BUT THE TALKING IS HORRIBLE! and When I tell my friends to be quiet. I AM CONSIDERED THE NERD FRUMMY. WHY WHY WHY? I want to have bracha and parnassa in MY life and YOU should to. Why cant we just shut our mouth.
Anyone who has a problem with what Shimona wrote should review the shiur Tanya for Simchas Torah and yesterday. Compared to the Alter Rebbe’s harsh words for those who talk during davening, Shimona’s words are lax and easygoing.
I totally hear you. I don’t mean to generalize but in my personal experience that was not the case. Some of the shluchas I’ve encountered, who are well into the grandchild phase of life talk throughout shul and not to congregants but members of their families. Like I’ve stated before after 20 years of traveling there is definitely a noticeable difference in the caliber of chabad leadership. Not trying to knock it down but it does make me sad that my kids are not lucky enough to grow up with strong role models as I did. The talking in shul… Read more »
One should NOT read pamphlets, Torah literature or not even review Chitas. One must listen closely to each word of Chazoras Hashatz, answer ברוך הוא וברוך שמו and אמן and אמן יהי שמה רבא as well as listening to each word of Layning and Haftora…The author of this article is not making up anything on her own. This is indeed one of the few lessons we can learn from the Sefardim who are very careful not to speak during Daavening, Layning etc. and in other circles as well. Being Chabad, means being EXTRA careful with Mitzvos, not lacking in them..… Read more »
My husband said that some people were talking in shul and he said to them that their conversation sounded so interesting that it was keeping him from davening and maybe they could speak later so he could daven and hear v their interesting conversation later. Another time, he asked some people who were talking during davening if they wanted to hear a dirty joke. They told him “What! You want to say a dirty joke and in a shul.” He told them “And you could talk during davening in a shul?” I was in a shul (not Chabad) on simchas… Read more »
Take a look at Tanya #4:24, Shulchan Oruch #124 with the Mishnah Berurah and Alter Rebbe’s Shulchan Oruch 124.
I don’t have the heart to quote what they say here….
Is it true that rabbis can read pamphlets or torah literature during davening?
Our children need to be taught what Tephilla means. In our Chabad House we are told the Rebbe never wanted services for the children, so instead they run riot. The place is like a zoo.
Yes I’m a shlucha – I come to shul towards the end. I send my older kids with my husband aka Rabbi. I come towards the end because my kids can’t sit through the whole davening. I sometimes don’t come at all since I’m recovering or have a baby that can’t walk the distance and now my place is at home to raise my small children bh. Different shluchos are at different stages. Iyh when my kids grow up I look forward to being in shul with my children davening together. Reason why lots of young shluchos sit in the… Read more »
Talk in shul all you want- talk to G-d!!
Before finding chabad I grew up reform, conservative and MO who ALL had major kavod in shul and there was no talking. Then I was lucky enough to live in a Lubavitch community with plenty of smart, chasidishe, female role models who always were in shul on time, sitting way up in the front. These were mothers with dozens of kids in between them. Of course the kids would talk and play in the shul and their mothers gently reminded them to lower their voices. One of our Shul’s Rabbi’s explained that a child should be comfortable in a shul,… Read more »
I learned that men can not daven during Krias haTorah but ladies can.
My family davens in the kollel and there is no talking there. It simply is not tolerated. It can be done! Just shut your mouth!!
People need to talk and socialize and connect. In CH there aren’t many opportunities for this.
….it just needs to be at a time OTHER than in shul during davening.
It just needs to be somewhere else!
A Modest Proposal to End Talking During Tefillah by JA Mag | February 11, 2013 in Opinion 0 Share27 By Elliot Ganz jasilencenomouth85.jpgIn many Orthodox shuls today, talking during davening and layning, particularly on Shabbat, has become the norm. It is, in fact, a problem of epidemic proportions. Talking typically begins during Shacharit, gets worse during layning and haftorah, and rises to a crescendo during Mussaf. One of my friends recently quipped that in his shul, the baal tefillah for Mussaf could walk out during chazorat hashatz and no one would notice. Not funny. What is most surprising about talking… Read more »
It is difficult to be a Nachshon in this day and age. I recently met a Chabad Rabbi who has instigated davenning aloud together (like Sephardim do) so everyone feels a part of something special and spurs each other on. The beneficial ‘side-effect’ is no talking! He said his congregation loves it.
You’re talking on the women’s side where there is no chiyuv for davening. In most shuls, women simply don’t show up. To actually come to shul is a chidush and then they will quite often simply remain outside talking. On the men’s side it isn’t much better, you can barely have a minyan at 10. Then the talkers come in around Baruch Hu and yak until kriah. From there they have the Kiddush club where they hang out in an adjoining room and have some cholent and L’Chaim. They pile in buzzed by Musaf and you get a crescendo of… Read more »
So happy you are bringing this up!
I like this well written some people are just not nice thats life
It’s hard to believe the story from 770 shul..but there are many people in this world, and not all of them think like you do. I feel that most people don’t like being reprimanded by anyone (much less by someone THEY don’t think is tznius enough!) That said, disturbing the davening of others is not acceptable either. The solution would be in my humble opinion, that you or anyone of us, should say respectfully “could you please lower your voices just a little, I can’t concentrate on my davening when I can hear your INTERESTING conversation”. DONE you did not… Read more »
In my opinion Every Shul should carry a weapon and smack the people who talk in Shul during Davening… One of the serious flaws in our society today is the lack of proper decorum in shul, especially on Shabbos and Yom Tov. While socializing in shul is not a new problem[1] and certainly most, if not all people who go to shul are aware of the prohibition against talking during davening, still a great deal of talking goes on anyway, either from force of habit or out of disregard for the halachah. Today, when the power of prayer is needed… Read more »