Feb 2, 2011
'Ikul' Issued Againt Rabbi Braun
Rabbi Krauss and the "ikul" ruling he sent

A restraining order against Rabbi Yossi Braun's position in the Crown Heights Bais Din was released by a Brooklyn Bais Din, headed by Rabbi Chaim Krauss who refused to tell COLlive who applied for it.

By COLlive reporter

The goal of a restoring order to the communal leadership of the Crown Heights Chassidic neighborhood has received another setback Wednesday.

Three Brooklyn rabbis have released a restraining order ("ikul") against Rabbi Yossi Braun's position as the third member of the Crown Heights Bais Din to which he was elected in September 2010.

Rabbi Chaim Krauss, Rabbi Yaakov Goldstein and Rabbi Naftali Chaim Stalmen ordered the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council (Vaad Hakohol-CHJCC) not to employ Rabbi Braun until further notice.

Rabbi Krauss is the Morah D'asra of the Bais Yisroel community of Kensington, Av Beis Din Ohel Chaim of Brooklyn and a Dayan of Agudas Harabbanim Of USA and Canada. In 1998 he signed a "siruv" against Rabbi Yehuda Kalman Marlow OBM and Rabbi Avrohom Osdoba.

Today's "ikul" ruling, written on Rabbi Krauss' stationary and signed by the 3 rabbis, called on the Vaad Hakohol not to hold an inauguration ceremony although one was just held last month.

It also demands not to sign a contract although one was already signed by Vaad Hakohol members Fishel Brownstein and Yossi Hackner (without the signature of Chairman Zaki Tamir, complying with an order by Badatz member Rabbi Osdoba).

The 3 rabbis also stated that they were not questioning the ruling of Monsey Dayan Rabbi Avrohom Rosenberg who okayed Rabbi Braun's election amid doubts about the latter's credentials.

"The date for a din Torah will be set in the coming days," they wrote. "More importantly is that for now, no action should be made in appointing Rabbi Braun."

COLlive.com has reached Rabbi Krauss who verified the authenticity of the ruling and said it was sent to the Vaad Hakohol.

Asked who presented them with the case and asked for the suspension, Rabbi Krauss said "the Bais Din does not discuss such things over the phone."

The COLlive.com reporter stated that such information should be made public to the residents of Crown Heights.

Rabbi Krauss replied with a "good night" and hung up the phone.

Since Rabbi Braun's election, supporters of his opponent have questioned the validity of his smicha rabbinical ordination and his experience as a posek in halacha.

It is not clear yet whether these rabbonim have jurisdiction on the matter and if the Vaad Hakohol will comply.

UPDATE (2/03/2011 4:03 PM): Zaki Tamir released the following statement:

The Vaad Hakohol has not yet established an official position with regards to the ikul issued by the Beis Din of Rabbi Chaim Kraus, shlita.

The Vaad will be meeting together as soon as possible to review the authority and the jurisdiction of the ikul, its parameters and its practical repercussions, if any. 

The Vaad Hakohol will form its position after consultations with the Beis Din zabl"o, the Beis Din of Rabbi Kraus, shlita, and the Badatz of Crown Heights.

I believe that it's the right of the people of Crown Heights to know where we stand on this issue, and I will report out position as soon as I can do so responsibly.

The Vaad Hakohol will assume a position which will uphold halachah and the interests and well-being of the Rebbe's shechunah.

Most Read Most Comments

Rabbi Braun (L) is given the "ksav hachtara" by the Vaad Hakohol
Rabbi Braun (L) is given the "ksav hachtara" by the Vaad Hakohol
Dayan Rabbi Rosenberg (L) with Crown Heights Badatz member Rabbi Yaacov Schwei
Dayan Rabbi Rosenberg (L) with Crown Heights Badatz member Rabbi Yaacov Schwei

Opinions and Comments
Inda Know
A beis din of 3 cannot nullify the decision of a beis din of 5.

Rabbi Krauss this is non of your business.
(2/2/2011 8:50:40 PM)
stop stop stop
we are just fed up of all this!!

can we just cancell this whole joke of a beis din that is doing everything to defy whatever we are trying to teach our children?!

no rov, yes rov - we dont care. either way we use other rabbonim for shaalos on any matter. so why the waste of money, why the headache, why the embarrassment and why ruin our fear of hashem and respect for rabbonim??

with tears,
a toshav hashchuna
(2/2/2011 8:52:26 PM)
Baruch Hashem
Let the color war begin....
(2/2/2011 8:52:59 PM)
Biased reporting
The opening paragraph of this article is very biased. Most of us would not call this Ikkul a "setback" but a rectification!
(2/2/2011 8:56:17 PM)
Simple solution
Why cant a simple solution which all can agree on be implemented - expand the Bais Din to a 5 member Bais Din.

CH is a very large and diverse community, a small Bais Din isn’t fair because there needs to be true representation of all legitimist elements in the community, why are we all being so narrow minded here.

If we have larder Bais Din people can find the Rov they feel most comfortable with and the Bais Din will actually serve a productive purpose instead of it just being a symbolic Bais Din.
(2/2/2011 9:00:50 PM)
LOL! This is never going to stop!
(2/2/2011 9:02:05 PM)
Good News!
(2/2/2011 9:05:32 PM)
same old
The same garbage once again....if you don't like a psak or a bais din go to another one and if they will get them to issue a siruv....AD. MUSAY???
(2/2/2011 9:05:58 PM)
What is going on!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one cares about these power trips. Just let R' Braun continue now that he already got in.
(2/2/2011 9:09:29 PM)
this bais din cant have any jurisdiction over our vaad hakahal!
(2/2/2011 9:11:22 PM)
red or blue team?
i think im just fine with out summer games!
(2/2/2011 9:12:07 PM)
Why Stop?
The Bais Din of 5 overruled their own Psak Din.. 3 times...! It was a joke!
(2/2/2011 9:16:21 PM)
to #1
by your own reasoning, then, this psak should hold.
rabbi rosenbergs last psak was signed only by himself. so this psak is 3 against 1.
(2/2/2011 9:17:50 PM)
What about Shtar Biruren?!
Rabbi Osboda and Rabbi Schvei both singed that they will obey the Psak of the Zabla EVEN if another Bais Din comes and says it’s mistaken.

The following link is the Shtar Biruren from Zaki Tamir's blog

(2/2/2011 9:18:42 PM)
(2/2/2011 9:23:19 PM)
Let's get an Ikul against the Ikul! Then if they get an Ikul against our anti-Ikul Ikul, we'll get an Ikul declaring their Torah Sheni as void.

The beis din zabla of 5 have spoken.
(2/2/2011 9:28:25 PM)
(2/2/2011 9:29:53 PM)
to #2
without rabbonim and beis din; yiddishkeit is lost. i know with my children, when the rov says something and they AND I don't like it, i still tell them if the rov said u gotta listen. these uphold our values.
whoever is doing this can take responsibility for all the tragedies :(
(2/2/2011 9:32:13 PM)
both sides signed a "Shtar Borerin" BEFORE THE BEGGINING OF THE DIN TORAH where is says clearly:

"'it was stated explicitly that no other Bies Din in the world can add or change the Psak, even if they think that this Beis Din erred"
(2/2/2011 9:33:39 PM)
Is this a joke?
There was a Zabla. Whence this Beis Din's jurisdiction?
(2/2/2011 9:35:39 PM)
Lets start all over
Fire them all and live like human beings without any rov the institution has just caused machlokes.

If you have a question ask a local Rov or a Rov of anash and if you have a dint torah go to BP or flatbush!!!
(2/2/2011 9:41:26 PM)
Come on, Lets Live in PEACE!!!!!!
stop fighiting and waving the flames you want this cummunity to be strong dont fight with or Rabbonim. the rebbe made i clear we need to stop this and not let thus Yitzer Haros stick ther nose in are cummuinty. lets live in peace that will to the most bennefit to are children to are scholls and are commuinity. b'soros tovos
(2/2/2011 9:42:46 PM)
to those fed up with the CH beis din
There is one who stands by the truth even when that makes him unpopular. His decision does not change with the wind. The way these events have unfolded only affirms his commitment to the truth. I will continue to support Rav Osdaba ad bi'us moshiach.
(2/2/2011 9:42:52 PM)
maseh soton
I want to cry
(2/2/2011 9:44:10 PM)
sore loser!
the losing party are a bunch of sore losers!
(2/2/2011 9:44:39 PM)
Boruch N. Hoffinger BS"D
Money honey!
(2/2/2011 9:47:54 PM)
what I dont get is...
Why would R Braun want to be himself?? Why would he put himself in this carzy position? Why would he want to be a ROV????
If I was the cause of such craziness I would say never mind its not worth it and step back.
(2/2/2011 9:52:38 PM)
Gimme a break
This is getting ridiculous. . .
(2/2/2011 9:53:28 PM)
just show ur passport already ..nu ?
(2/2/2011 9:53:50 PM)
about time!
(2/2/2011 9:57:08 PM)
Its hard to be Chassidim
When everyone is politician. I guess without 3 ravs we dont have a beis din. Hate to be the next rav running. I hope everyone likes him, or else he may be overthrown because it clearly has nothing to do with weather or not he is capable. Or any other ravs rulings for that matter.
(2/2/2011 9:57:59 PM)
arbitration agreement
on the third line of the second to the last paragraph of the "arbitration agreement" (signed by both parties) reads: "And it was clearly agreed upon that no Beis Din in the world can annul nor alter the Psak Din even if it is their belief that the Beis Din erred."
(2/2/2011 10:04:39 PM)
"and the mess grew bigger, every single day"
(2/2/2011 10:04:51 PM)
Lesson 1
If there is one thing I'm learning from this story is that if a Beis din makes a psak, it is not binding. I am free to decide it I feel that the psak is against halacha and then have another beis din do a take two.
(2/2/2011 10:12:50 PM)
everyone calm down!
(2/2/2011 10:20:31 PM)
who are you
i think some chabad rabonim should come out with a psak that he isnt a rav either
(2/2/2011 10:27:02 PM)
Mubarak !
The strategist behind this latest scam would do great in Mubarak Government in Egypt.
While I am no big fan of Rabbi Braun, there was free and democratic elections. Most of the CH residents showed up to vote, and Rabbi won. Is that not the same type of free democracy that millions of people around the world are fighting for.
So after letters and more letters, they scope to this.
Grow up - you lost let DEMOCRACY prevail
(2/2/2011 10:28:06 PM)
someone with backbone to stand up to corruption!
(2/2/2011 10:33:07 PM)
so not right!!
i can't believe they can do this to the community.
they are being very egotistic and selfish.

moshiach NOW
(2/2/2011 10:35:04 PM)
Obama for rov! R' Braun for president!
(2/2/2011 10:38:58 PM)
This is a sad day
A bais din with no jurisdiction is trying to mix in. I love how first they were screaming that R Rosenberg is not a lubavitcher and now they go to non lubavitchers themselves. I guess CH really does need to split in two. this is why the youth are leaving us. What is left to show them about Rabbonim etc. Sad day.
(2/2/2011 11:00:42 PM)
to #3
no it was always color war now it's bog war...
(2/2/2011 11:01:41 PM)
Gr8 job now we can continue living life thanks to this ikkul
oh mygoodness nothing better for these rabbis to do.
(2/2/2011 11:02:17 PM)
The agreement for Zablo was with Rabbi Rosenberg not Kraus
Rabbi Kraus has no business mixing in to a pre agreed Zablo. Rabbi Kraus take a hike.

Rabbi Ozdoba respecs a beis din only if he is a winner. How sad.

I suggest that next year there will be another election for a 3rd Rov, this time to replace Rabbi Ozdoba. Wait and see.
(2/2/2011 11:03:32 PM)
Is this the same R' Kraus?
Is this the same R' Kraus? that put a Siruv on Rabbis Marlow and Osdoba?
(2/2/2011 11:04:23 PM)
What a çéìåì äùí
What a çéìåì äùí
(2/2/2011 11:04:57 PM)
Moshe Friedman
I have a difficult time understanding what role a beis din plays in Crown Heights, if its very leadership is to be formed by this Rabbis Krauss, Goldstein and Stalmen trio.

Maybe Rabbis Kraus, Goldstein, and Stalmen should be the new beis din in Crown heights....as soon as we verify that they have all been ordained as rabbis
(2/2/2011 11:05:46 PM)
i knew the truth would come...
false steps aren't real, this step of a "New Rov!" + "Peace Finally" wasnt the step were waiting for. It's good that were retracing our steps! B"H!
(2/2/2011 11:09:46 PM)
I don't get it!
We Chas Veshalom don't have anything but utmost respect for Rabbi Rosenberg, and who would dare come after the 'melech'.
Buuuuutttt, please disregard his Psak to have a contract written by Rosh Chodesh Adar I. Hmmmm, interesting, and very political.
(2/2/2011 11:11:01 PM)
Aren't the folks who instigated this ikul also opposed to Rav Osdoba? Evidently, çëîéí that they are, their only goal is to destroy the Rebbe's sh'chuna. Worse than sick.
(2/2/2011 11:14:46 PM)
Awesome - justice will prevail!
Just in time for the deadline of Rosh Chodesh Adar. The Rov can cancel is tickets now and get refunded due to the weather conditions. Maybe he can get his job back in Sydney, I guess they are the ones that are gonna be most disappointed
(2/2/2011 11:15:45 PM)
After all said and done.
After we clear this up. The runner up will come the new Rov I.e welcome Rabbi Bogomilsky you are the real winner hang in for another few weeks
(2/2/2011 11:18:40 PM)
Who do they think they are???? anyone ever heard of them? why are these outsiders telling us what to do? we have our own Rabonim BH. and who dared go to them? I want answers
(2/2/2011 11:20:46 PM)
The Vaad Hakohol signed as well
To #10, I just confirmed the Vaad Hakohol signed the Shtar Bairurim as well and therefore the Vaad is bound to Rabbi Rosenberg's psak. The wording is clear that they can not get another bais din involved. Rabbi Rosenberg has been down this road before and was careful to put this in. There this Ikul is garbage and has no teeth and should be ignored.
(2/2/2011 11:29:43 PM)
Why is it always "di linke" who try to involve fremde batei din in community matters? i.e. siruv against Rabbi Marlow a"h a few years back (of course now even they proclaim his honor - acharei mos, kedoshim emor... ) and yblcht"a Rabbi Osdoba.
(2/2/2011 11:37:01 PM)
Bedikas Ha'tfillin
For all mcharchrei riv and machlokes, please check your Tefillin see sicha erev shavuos 5740.
(2/2/2011 11:40:09 PM)
To 13 and generally:
to 13: it was signed "bshem habeis din."
Generally: this is outrageous on many levels. Mainly, however, whence their jurisdiction to overturn a ZABLA?? It's mind boggling. Really, this is so typical and sets a great example: if you don't like the result of the beis din that originally heard your case, even by your own will, just go to another beis din or court. It's so sad...
(2/2/2011 11:44:27 PM)
This says everything:
"Rabbi Krauss is the Morah D'asra of the Bais Yisroel community of Kensington, Av Beis Din Ohel Chaim of Brooklyn and a Dayan of Agudas Harabbanim Of USA and Canada. In 1998 he signed a "siruv" against Rabbi Yehuda Kalman Marlow OBM."

It shows us 1) exactly who this man is, and 2) who it is that's using him, of all people, to oppose R' Braun. So telling...!
(2/2/2011 11:47:17 PM)
Can a fellow Beis Din meddle in the Zabla?
The third line of the fourth paragraph reads: "And it was clearly agreed upon that no Beis Din in the world can annul nor alter the Psak Din even if it is their belief that the Beis Din erred."
(2/2/2011 11:49:11 PM)
does the vaad even have to listen?
look in alter rebbe hilchos nzkei haguf venefesh, sif 15 till the end
(2/2/2011 11:56:17 PM)
as a Kensington resident- you dont realize the Chillul Lubavitch being caused. Im embarrassed.
(2/3/2011 12:03:30 AM)
Rebbe tells story...
listen to this short story the Rebbe relates about how a loosing party to a Din Torah usually reacts...

(2/3/2011 12:06:10 AM)
what a bizayun!!!!!!!! and what an expense to move a family here from australia, basically what a big joke!!!!!!!!!!!!! may be 14 is right MONEY MONEY MONEY BUT THAT'S NOT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!
(2/3/2011 12:06:47 AM)
Thank you
to the person who posted this above; what an eye opener:

(2/3/2011 12:12:02 AM)
YES, Uncle Moishey has now taken on new importance
(2/3/2011 12:13:56 AM)
please give me some time....
Now I understand why the “loosing party” implored the Vaad Hakohol to hold of with the ‘hachtara’ just for a while. They were shopping for an ‘ikul’! but their problem was that 99% of normal, honorable Botei Dinim WILL NOT issue an ikul in a case like this.

So they needed TIME to “rabbi” shop all over, and find some ‘hidden’, unknown rabbonim - NOT a reputable Beis din – who are looking for some attention ($$$) etc.

Job well done! Problem is that the parties in the dispute already SIGNED that they are NOT allowed to do this, and therefore it hold NO weight. The community is bound 1000% by the Psak Din issued by the Zablo of 5 Rabbonim headed by Rabbi Rosenberg.

This only helps those who never supported the Badatz and never will – they now have a banner to stand behind.
(2/3/2011 12:14:18 AM)
They don't know how to lose
From the fact that this bd put a "siruv" on rabbi marlow (and rabbi azdoba) before, you can tell what's their drive...
(2/3/2011 12:15:09 AM)
çéìåì ìåáàååéèù çéìåì ä
This is so not right. How can they do this to us?
(2/3/2011 12:19:47 AM)
color war
How much money were these guys paid for this letter?

Couldn’t they get a reputable Beis Din to issue an ‘ikul’? Oh, I forgot, a reputable Beis Din would never engage in this type of activity…

Hashem Yerachem…
(2/3/2011 12:20:30 AM)
Remember how the old vaad hakol argued against withdrawing their suit unless R' Osdoba's side signed that they'd adhere to the din torah?? Everyone screamed and shouted that it was messira and how dare they suspect R' Osdoba of disobeying a din torah... v'chulu. I hope they can reinstate suit and let all of the truth come out.
(2/3/2011 12:22:02 AM)
Let R' Braun come
Who cares if R' Braun is the third "Rov", CH doesn't deserve a real Beis Din.
(2/3/2011 12:31:35 AM)
am glad
its about time this was done. the whole thing was 1 sided scam
(2/3/2011 12:55:40 AM)
Hirschel Pekkar
BH. Even if your comment is just, but where is the "BH". at the beginning of your letter?, only #7 typed it in. (I am not judging his comment. ) The Rebbe said "sholom kan hakol kan". That even with all the faults, accept as it is, because then you will have everything. By a sota, fo the sake of peace, Hashem allows His Holy Name, to be erased, which is against halocho. This is a lesson for us to learn from.from.
(2/3/2011 12:55:42 AM)
the only problem is
What happened to the other 4 Rabonim on the Zablah din torah?
If they would come forward and sign and we would have a psak with FIVE sig. on it,it would put an end to the fighting!!!
(2/3/2011 12:59:46 AM)
can someone please explain...
what is an ikul and a siruv???
(2/3/2011 1:00:40 AM)
tell them to go to sleep
we have enough rabel rousers in this community we dont need an outsider "Soton"!

we had a clear as day zabla din torah and a shtar Birurin was sgined by R. Osdoba and R. Schwei.
the Beis Din Zabla ruled and we must accept weather we like it or not.

(2/3/2011 1:08:40 AM)
Does this make sense?
Theoretically, if the Vaad Hakohol does not comply with the Psak Din of the communal Zablo of Rabbi Rosenberg, then their own election to the office would be void [since the elections were held on the order of the Zablo], and the previous vaad would still be in power.

At that point, will the old/current vaad continue will all of the subpoenas? (which Moshe Rubashkin, Rabbi Bogomilsky, Rabbi Osdobo were very fearful of…)
(2/3/2011 1:11:58 AM)
To #52
Yes R' Bogomilsky got his friends from Kensingston to issue the Siruv on R' Osdoba and R' Marlow and now he goes back to them again hoping to get himself elected in place of R' Braun
How pathetic!
(2/3/2011 1:22:14 AM)
Zaki - please stand up
this is the same "Rov" that put Rabbi Marlow O.B.M. and YBLCH"T Rabbi Osdoba himself in SIRUV!

just to show you the credibility of this individual

the community expects you to stand up and say Enough is enough! we had a fair din torah and fair elections we have a new Rov. period!
(2/3/2011 1:22:43 AM)
isnt this a bit to late?
didnt we all agree on a peace?
(2/3/2011 1:23:27 AM)
Every clown feels like giving his own 2 cents. That's what twitter was made for
(2/3/2011 3:23:26 AM)
Rabbi Mattis Kantor, Eastern Parkway, NY
On this issue of an ikul alone, one theoretical question in Halacha:

What is a baal din supposed to do, in a case where the bais din (or Av Beis Din) ignores evidence, does not answer questions about evidence, and you are certain he shows bias?

Fall koyre’im before them and accept?

Now another question on a lifetime position:

One of the fundamental differences between a secular court and Torah law, is that secular law is all about settling a case (and the judge clearing his desk for a golf weekend). The Din Torah is about finding out the truth. VeDorashta VeChokarta Heitev.

Why is this ikul such a tragedy to all those commenting as if it was? Are you afraid of the truth? Are you in such a hurry that you need to install a young person to a position for life? What is the rush here? Do you really think what you say is true: That pushing Braun into the seat will be achdus?

Your vociferous cries of (supposed) anguish are either "ultra-naive" or politically motivated, bearing the undertones of an hysterical street mob. Your exaggerations about "sore losers" are precisely the words that turn kids off. Who can be against an investigation to establish the truth? Your resistance to taking the time to study the issues and questions raised, and then to respond point by point, is undermining your credibility in a very serious way.

A Zabla who paskened that "even if Braun didn't have smicha at the time of the election, it is to be expected in an election that there will be misrepresentation." [Read that again. Think of a lifetime position for Rov in the Rebbe's Courtyard. It is assumed there will be misrepresentation.]
Such a psak-din should be above scrutiny? Accepted with humility?

And what happens if Braun turns out to be still the same as he was when his mashpiyim knew him in Yeshiva, and the community is later upset or even appalled? What will you tell your kids and einiklech twenty to thirty years down the track? We signed on to a Zabla and Hashem sent us this, so we had to take it without asking questions or investigating?

It may very well be that these new Rabbonim will confirm the Zabla's psak., and surely if you believe what you are saying is true, then they will certainly do this.

This is not the end of the world. It needs to go ahead to clear the air either way. And please don't throw predictions that this will be appealed. If it is unjust, for example if it does not even call the two parties contradicting each other to testify in the beis din before each other (Tzinner and Braun, then it needs to be appealed). Such a procedure is a fundamental din-torah means of establishing the truth (as the Gemara says, "eyn odom meyiz bifnei baal dinoy"). Instead we have to rely on Rosenberg's "gut feeling" that Braun innocently believed he had smicha. (Why he didn't tell anyone in Sydney that he now has smicha, can be buried under one-hundred excuses, suitable for cover-up only.)

One thing is perfectly clear to me: There is no dispute that for 10+ years, this yungerman (who is so brilliant that he could get smicha in ten minutes) didn’t bother to follow the Rebbe's Horaa. And now he is being elected to be the Chassidishe Rov the Rebbe sends us to (VeAta TeTzaveh) for our queries? That Horaa is/was the only undisputed Tzavaa the Rebbe left us. So now in the name of the Rebbe, peace, Achdus, children's chinuch, we are to accept such an appointment? For the Rebbe's Kovod? Are we to take this line seriously? Are you not embarrassed to say such a thing? (Verbal thugs: my email address is harimak@gmail.com. Throw the abuse, as the psak of the Rambam is that such things fix the mood of the perpetrator. Honest people: Think about that. I am eager to hear a rational explanation of how a yungerman who was in opposition to the Shliach who initially supported him, and who for 10+ years didn’t take the 10 minutes you claim he needs for smicha, and just “do what the Rebbe said.” Get smicha. Now he is to take a lifetime seat in the “surrogate” position of the proverbial Chassidishe Rov the Rebbe tell us to consult? Please explain this to me. I promise to listen to an answer – not a red herring accusation and name call.)

Anyone involved in such an appointment will automatically have to answer to the Bais Din Shel Maaloh before seven generations of Nessiim. This has (for me) nothing to do with politics or a "phony" psak. It has to do with the Derech of the Allter Rebbe who was prepared to lose 50 thousand Chassidim by demanding Emess. My commitment is to that derech in its entirety. To do whatever possible to ensure Chabad move closer to its roots rather than drift further. Ad mesirass nefesh (whatever it takes.).

(2/3/2011 4:17:16 AM)
trust me
this isnt rabbi bogomilsky, he isnt looking to fight for this job at all, on the other hand rabbi braun asked for the job
(2/3/2011 4:44:19 AM)
my opinion
I dont think that they should have 'solved' these problems this way. anyone could guess that there would be a problem when one side 'lost' so why didnt they find a rav neutral to both sides?
(2/3/2011 6:20:26 AM)
Unless there is new information, I cannot respect this, no matter who has initiated it.
(2/3/2011 6:58:28 AM)
My dear friends shlit”a, some food-for-thought:
My dear friends shlit”a
To all of you who are wondering who this new Beis-Din is and how “outsiders” have the “chutzpah” to mix in here…. I just want to give you some food-for-thought:
Who do you think got us into this rotten mess if not for an absolute outsider?
If you haven’t seen until now what kind of outsider “Rabbi” Rosenberg is than nothing will show you what & who are outsiders… Outsiders got us into this deepdddd.. and it’s going to take outsiders to get us out of IT!!!?? Sooo Wake up and smell the coffee….
May we be zoche b’karov to “ Hashem yivorech es amo b’shalom……
(2/3/2011 7:55:54 AM)
levy says:
look at the original arbitration agreement signed by Rabbi Osdoba and Rabbi Schwei which clearly stipulates what is to be done in such a scenario.

It reads: "And it was clearly agreed upon that no Beis Din in the world can annul nor alter the Psak Din even if it is their belief that the Beis Din erred."
(2/3/2011 8:02:43 AM)
The lead signatory of the 'Ikul', R' Chaim Krauss, has gained infamy in Crown Heights for his involvement in the shameful 'Siruv' placed on the Crown Heights Beis Din in 1998, one of whose members was Rabbi Osdoba.
(2/3/2011 8:04:18 AM)
Rabbi Krauss was never involved in Siruv against Rabbis Marlow and Osdoba..the names the was Rabbis Ginzburg and Ralbag.
(2/3/2011 8:37:11 AM)
Turn the page, move on. Don't you understand that we are all FED UP of all this? Pro-Braun or Anti-Braun, all CH want to turn the page and restore peace in the Shchruna. I want to admit that I was unsure about Rabbi Braun. But since his corronation has passed, you can feel in all CH an atmosphere of peace upon CH from all sides. So please, leave us alone, and give peace a chance. A foreign Beis Din doesn't have the right to interfere in that matter. It was clearly stated in the contract and signed by Rabbis Osdoba and Schwei. So their Ikul is illegal and the Va'ad doesn't have to comply.
(2/3/2011 8:43:46 AM)
a few points
1) for those saying these rabbonim are a outsider? rabbi rosenberg is a outsider and came out thinking he knows better then the rebbe!

2) rabbi osdobo was brave enough to sign for the first din torah lets see how brave rabbi shvei is to come and sign the letter that he will listen to whatever they say

3)if you want to look at someones past look at r' brauns past he made machlokos in sydney (not sure? pick up the phone and call any of the rebbes shluchim in sydney)

4) to # 73 it says b"h on the top of col so not every person needs to add it in

5) zaki said he will listen if there is a ikul so zaki your day was saved and you can sleep at night knowing you dont need to come up with $150k
(2/3/2011 9:09:52 AM)
Please explain
once second: the same people whe were waging a bitter war against the C.H. Badat'z for over 20 years, using every means to try and destroy the whole institution, they got these 3 rabbonim to put the Badat'z in "siruv".

sudenly, these very same people are fighting FOR the Badat'z, FOR Rabbi Osdobo and get the very same "rabbonim" involved. is this serious?

It seems like their agenda NEVER changed. their ultimate goal is to Chas Vesholom DESTROY THE BEIS DIN.
(2/3/2011 9:12:46 AM)
To all 100 comments before me!
Contract, no contract, ikul, no ikul, zablah, no zablah... anything that can get 100 comments on COL in no time shows that there will not be peace in the community unless really resolved.

The problem now is that it will not be resolved because even if the truth comes out that R' Braun had no shmicha or that he did there will always be a side that will say not true.

Good luck and no worries since this is only a one generation thing, since the next generation is SO turned off and will not care or respect anything to do with the CH beis din.
(2/3/2011 9:18:07 AM)
Korach V'Adoso
Answer to #80

#80 asks:
isnt this a bit to late? Didnt we all agree on a peace?

The machlokes machers are the grandchildren of Korach and will have the sem sof like Korach V'Adoso
(2/3/2011 9:27:33 AM)
is this true?
The Vaad Hakohol CANNOT listen to this "ikul". If they choose not to follow Rabbi Rosenberg's Beis Din's Psak Din then they automatically - retroactively - disqualify themselves from being members of the Vaad.

The old Vaad will be back in. [the only reason they are the curent Vaad, is because of the Psak Din of the Zabl"o. Remove that, and were back to square one r"l]
(2/3/2011 9:34:32 AM)
generating sense of communal brotherhood
i think by now most lubavichers have realized that all these arguments-pro braun etc. are shtusim;as the arguments about meshichist-anti etc.;meanwhile we're losing unzereh kinder by the day...the standard of all these "mizrachi/chabad'niker and young israel of lubavitch shuls and anash is poshut sad.....
bichlolus the only way forward is through ahas yisroel-leaders have to come together,create a task force,a think tank etc. on how do will still connect all the shtiblich and opposing strands in the k'hila?
THAT is the question.EVERYONE in anash should feel a kinship toward another from anash.braun or no braun will not make one difference in this regard,people will choose which rov they will follow and who they will respect;now lets start making some moves that will bond us together.
(2/3/2011 9:39:39 AM)
enough! Zaki stand up!
SHOW US JUSTICE ALREADY... How can he do these things to such great Rabbonim (R' Marlow, R' Braun..)???
(2/3/2011 9:54:36 AM)
Hah, and we cry out Ad Mosai to Hashem?
Hashem is crying Ad Mosai to us!
(2/3/2011 10:07:48 AM)
This is a question of power
The Ikul states, that since "the people that asked for the ikul did not signed for the zabla. Meaning that although the vaad hakohol did agree, and rabbi's scewei and ozdaba agreed, there are people in the community that are unhappy, and they the people did not sign.
Question now is, when the vaad hakohol signs a contract is that binding to the community (as if the community signed or could individuals come along and say... "We are not bound".
If that is the case, I guess there is no power to a community, and before anything is done you would need 100% to sign on?
(2/3/2011 10:14:36 AM)
Reib Levy Itschak of Berdichiev
Reib Levy Itschak of Berdichiev said on the Rabbanim the night of Seder Pessach on the memera :" VeHakadosh Baruch Hu Yatsilenu miyadam", G-d will alsosave us from their hands, (us and our children), now go back to the Seder Hayom...to learn, to work, to be productive, as for the others 'velassarissim Yad Va"Shame"'.
The "Shaty-vearev" has no bounding with Holiness even if is name is life, it is only faking the kedushah.
Ich ken em,
(2/3/2011 10:18:42 AM)
ch resident
we do not need a rav. most CH ask sheiles to rabbonim out of the neighborhood and we all know why. what do we need another rav (read problem)? leave well enough alone. peace? that is not going to happen. can't R braun see that he has only added to the fight and will never bring peace. real people will not ask him real sheiles anyway so why do we need him. a rav is a chosheve yid, yiras shomaim, learned, experienced, knowledgeable, interested in the welfare of his community, respected by at least most people.
(2/3/2011 10:35:07 AM)
To (Rabbi?) Mattis Kantor
The Alter aRebbe was prepared to give up 50,000 chassidim for Emes, not for such narishkeitn
(2/3/2011 10:49:14 AM)
1. the Yikul states that "a request came in front of us" - A request from WHO?
2. also states that the request is from individuales that did not sign the shtar beirurin and are not binded by the psak - Did they come to VOTE? If they did they accepted the rulling of the bais din that paskened to make elections. They came they signed their names and voted. So you hooked to it.
3. The so called yikul is on the members of the vaad hakohol that was elected by an election rulled by the psak of the zablo BD. Every candidate (for CHJCC-VAAD and gabboyim) signed that he will accept and abide by the Zablo psak din. So they must listen to the psak.
If anybody has a problem with the Psak he would have no choice other then call the five Rabbonim of the Zablo Bais Din to court. EIN ACHAR MAYSE BEIS DIN KLUM.
(2/3/2011 10:49:29 AM)
game over
An Ikul is to prevent a specific action in the FUTURE.

I don't believe any action needs to be taken at this point by the vaad hakohol. the elections are over. the hachtara was already held.

GAME OVER. the vaad hakohol has NO power/jurisdiction over the Crown Heights Beis Din. aderaba, they are subject to the rulings of the Beis Din
(2/3/2011 11:06:14 AM)
Crown Heights Resident
This "ikul" is worthless, meaningless. Like serving papers without an index number or without a plaintiff. If they dont want to divulge who the toiveah is, they can stick it.
In any event, you can't ask for an ikul post facto. There was a Hachtorah, the contract was signed, he served in the capacity as Rav which makes him a muchzak. The handwritten P.S. on the bottom of the letter is prejudicial to Rabbi Braun which invalidates the whole "ikul".
The issue mentioned in the PS was dealt withg by the bais din of zablo and there is no possibility of revisiting it whether you signed the shtar birurin or not.

(2/3/2011 11:15:17 AM)
Lmaan Hashem
Ir shpilt zich duh mit fayer.
Hut rachmones oif ayereh Mishpoches.
(2/3/2011 11:25:52 AM)
Chaim Sholom Ber
Does Rabbi Yosef Braun have an authentic Smicha from a time prior to the election process of the CHBD.
I suspect that if he did we would not be witnessing this debate which is causing an enormous Chilul Lubavitch.
I have seen the document from Rav Gavriel Tzinner, it is not a Smichah, it is an approbation as to erudition from Yosef Braun it does not confer any Rabbinc Ordination.
Please prove me incorrect by asking Rav Rosenberg to publicize the authenticated Smicha as soon as possible, meaning immediately.
If such is not forthcoming let the lies cease.
Then a election for third Rov can occur
(2/3/2011 11:42:23 AM)
#82 Rabbi Kantors COMMENT
Thank You for saying it the way it is!!!!!
(2/3/2011 12:51:54 PM)
What is Smicha really about?
By recognizing that someone has the capability to Pasken Halacha you have in essence given him Smicha

Rabbi Tzinner himself can clarify that for you.

Yes your right, that was not why he gave him a Smicha document. Though that is irrelevant, for what in essence is Smicha?
(2/3/2011 1:02:32 PM)
Did you know?
Both parties have agreed long ago, and signed "And it was clearly agreed upon that no Beis Din in the world can annul nor alter the Psak Din even if it is their belief that the Beis Din erred."

This bais din has no jurisdiction over the ruling, neither the vaad hakahal.
(2/3/2011 1:09:47 PM)
Is there any precedence?
To issuing a restraining order obtained by an anonymous party?

Rabbi's Krauss, Goldstein & Stalman are making a farce of themselves.

Even though I personally thought Rabbi Rosenberg's psak was flawed, the simple fact is that an overwhelming majority of the community accepted it, by participating in the two elections mandated by it. (And while I wrote a protest on my ballot, I doubt there was anyone else who did so - definitely not a substantial number of people - or we would hear about it).

If it was so decided that the Vaad Hakohol and third Rabbi be established, like it or not, that is what the MAJORITY of Crown Heights decided to ACCEPT by PARTICIPATING in the election.

Instead of issuing an anonymous 'Ikul' let Rabbis Krauss, Goldstein & Stalman find out if the people who approached them voted in the election. If they did - by their mere participation in the election they accepted the process (even if reluctantly - as I did) and must accept the outcome.
(2/3/2011 2:03:57 PM)
the two rabonim agreed to listen to rabbu rosenberg on the fight they had. but here the issu is a smicha. who is rosenberg to paskin more then any any any rov in n/y/
(2/3/2011 2:15:22 PM)
Very well said - Rabbi Kantor
That's the truth, and totally rational. I wonder how many people read it fully and understood your logic. Most of the rabble-rousers don't want to hear the truth, and probably don't understand the real issues.

Crown Heights, wake up! You are being brain-washed by people with a political agenda and not by truth and halacha.
It is time to elect a rav who has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD of being a role model of chassidus, halacha.

The elections were a big mistake- smartly orchestrated by a few people with an agenda. IT was NOT to bring sholom and achdus. The smicha cover-up is just one proof that has shown and warned us who his supporters are.
(2/3/2011 2:21:56 PM)
Ima Heer
Rabi Krauss is WRONG.

The Vaad HaKohol of the time signed the Shtar Birurim as the chosen leaders of the Kehilla. As such, they bound the themselves AND all its members to the terms of the Shtar (as it affects community affairs), including to accept the Psac and not to go to another Beis Din on these issues. Mi Mo Nafshack (either way), if these "new" plaintiffs are members of the community, they are bound by the Psac of Rabbi Rosenberg's Zabla Beis Din, and the Shtar Birurim, and prohibited to petition Rabbi Krauss' Beis Din, or if they are not members of the community and not bound by the Shtar, they have no right to meddle in the affairs of the Crown Heights Community.

Why is Krauss concealing the names of the petitioners? Who is he trying to protect? Himself? How much $$ did he get paid for a one page letter? To the congregant of R. Krauss above, you should be ashamed of yourself, and of your Rov.
(2/3/2011 3:32:26 PM)
les din vles dayan?
The Rebbe writes that a zabla is ratzon haelyon. What are we teaching the next generation ?.
(2/3/2011 4:12:19 PM)
Come and Hear
To #62 above,

Brilliant, The quote from the Rebbe is so to the point! A must hear for everyone involved!!
(2/3/2011 4:20:39 PM)
For all those who claim that that case of interference is not different from the "interference" of the Zabla Beis Din, it is important to note that, yes, there is a difference. The Zabla Beis Din of HaRav Rosenberg Shlita was consulted by both parties, while this time, that Beis Din from another neighborhood was not consulted for the arbitration. So they are strangers who don't have a word on the matter. Moreover, it was stipulated in the contract that no other Beis Din could intervene on the matter.
(2/3/2011 5:53:14 PM)
is this honesty?

Who leaked private letters of Rabbi Rosenberg to Rabbi Osdobo designated as "classified = secret documents"?

where is the honesty and integrity? isn't that the crux of Rabbo O's complaints against the new Rov?
(2/3/2011 6:18:41 PM)
It is perhaps the strangest of developments yet in this prolonged Rabbonim saga.

Yesterday, three non-Chabad rabbis from a Boro Park Beis Din issued a restraining order against the Vaad Hakohol's further progress in installing the newly elected Rabbi Yossi Braun as third rov in Crown Heights.

Exactly who lobbied to the three distinguished rabbis is unknown, as the leader of the panel, Rabbi Chaim Kraus has refused to comment. Another detail that remains a mystery is what warranted these rabbis to give their opinion on a community that never sought their arbitration.

Without too great a memory, one can recall what was done to a previously elected Beis Din in Crown Heights, one whose members were heralded by the Rebbe as 'abir sheb'abirim' no less. In 1998, the lead signatory of this latest document Rabbi Kraus, joined a number of other rabbis is issuing a 'siruv' against Crown Heights Rabbis Yehuda Kalman Marlow obm and (may he live and be well) Avraham Osdoba.

Looking into the other two rabbis signed onto the 'Ikul' document, one can hardly be impressed. These two obscure names are basically unknown personalities and don't seem to be part of any formal Beis Din.

Aside from questions on their right to mingle into Crown Heights affairs, the document is basically nonsensical. First, it dismisses the agreement signed by Rabbis Aharon Yakov Schwei and Avrohom Osdoba that subsequent to a ruling by Rabbi Avraham Rosenberg and the Zablo Beis Din, no Beis Din could be approached for further deliberation. The 'Ikul' asserts that "that the individuals who have come forward to take issue" with Rabbi Braun's appointment "are not signatories on that Shtar Berurim and did not submit themselves to the ruling of the Zablo." In other words, a Shtar Berurim according to the 'Ikul' is worth less than the paper upon which it is written. If either litigant is unhappy with the outcome, although he cannot approach a new Beis Din, but someone else can!

Reading between the lines, the document is basically saying that the losing side in any future Din Torah will be able to turn to a third Beis Din to challenge their rule.

Furthermore, the 'Ikul' demands that the Vaad not hold a Hachtara ceremony. Sorry, but did I miss something? Have these rabbis remained oblivious to the happenings in Chabad's main shul not three weeks ago?

What's most fascinating is the plain audacity with which the 'Ikul' has completely disregarded the Din Torah, and its outcome, conducted by the Monsey Dayan Rabbi Avraham Rosenberg. After paying due tribute to Rabbi Rosenberg's esteem, the three rabbis sign that "nevertheless, we feel there are issues that still need to be discussed by a Beis Din."

According to my understanding, the rabbis failed to realize some elementary points.

Firstly, Rabbis Osdoba and Schwei did sign a Ksav Berurim committing to accept any outcome of the Din Torah conducted by the Zablo Beis Din.

Regarding the parties "who aren't bound by that committal because they didn't sign the document," it is simply not true. Every member of Crown Heights who came out to vote, gave their implied consent to the process mandated by the Zablo. Those who did not come out to vote removed themselves from the picture, and their opinions cannot be taken into consideration.

I find the Ikul's call for a neutral arbitration absolutely despicable. When did Rabbi Rosenberg lose his neutrality? Is it when he ruled one side? According to Rabbi Kraus' document, I understand that any rabbi who finds one side guilty, is automatically deemed biased.

The Ikul is a complete farce and a distortion of reality. Its proponents are the same people who fought against the Crown Heights established rabbinical leadership over the decades, climaxing with the above-mentioned notorious Siruv against our rabbis.

This document was not written with the consent of both sides, and the signatories' adamancy in not disclosing the claimants' identities only adds to the skepticism surrounding it.

Crown Heights, the rabbis, leaders and people, celebrated the victory of peace two years ago when both sides agreed to seek mutual arbitration. That concluded with the Psak Din. Rabbi Rosenberg personally walked the community through every step of the way, moving aside potential obstacles on the path to peace.

This document undoes everything that the community sought to do.

A unanimous rejection of this biased document must be forthcoming.

Only then will unity be the topic of the day once again.

(2/3/2011 9:10:21 PM)
this is a non sense demand bcs even if they do he has other demands. the truth is that if rabbi rosenberg wrote in the name of the beis din and no one came forward saying its a daas yochid and its not in the name of the beis din its 100% in the name of the beis din, shtiko kehoydoh, its the other way around. rabbi osdoba has to prove there is no roiv bd. he has the issue, kol zman he cant prove there is no roiv the psak is valid and he must listen.
(2/3/2011 9:17:05 PM)
To Rabbi Mattis Kantor
Could you please elaborate which Siman in Shulchon Aruch are you talking about or wich Mechaber Rama Shach or Semeh in Choshen Mispat or
Maybe Yoreh Deah Shach or Taz Vechulu

You Quote
“Anyone who says that once a Bais Din has paskend “Torah says” “Torah commands”, is simply an amhaaretz and would do better opening up an “artscroll type” Choshen Mishpat, that venting on blogs. (The original Shulchan Aruch is a bit beyond their range, methinks.)”

Talmid Ani velilmod ani Tzorich

Nachman Sanowicz
(2/3/2011 11:02:05 PM)
Rabbi Krauss's Reputation
I just thought to point out that this Rabbi Krauss is also a so called Rabbinic Advisor to Lower East Side in Orlando, FL a restaurant not under a proper Hashgocho and fights the Rebbe's shluchim in the area (http://www.kosherorlando.com/Information/About_Us.htm).

The head of Agudas Harabonim of USA actually contacted one of the shluchim to let them know that Rabbi Krauss is in no way part of their organization and fraudulently uses this title because he once sat on a case with them years ago.
(2/4/2011 12:11:35 AM)
New Elections
Since many people have stated that they would not have voted for Rabbi Braun knowing what they know now, the whole election was a Me'kach Ta'us. Therefore, there should be new elections called for the third Rav.
(2/4/2011 12:33:04 AM)
this is crazy, some immature people constantly stirring machlokes. enough!!!!!!!! and to involve other rabbis ??????
show some ahavas yisrael, being a mentch is the most important thing, a decision was made, by the community and now we move on.
(2/4/2011 2:48:16 AM)
I am sure that everyone realizes that this "ikul" is a Purim Torah that was sent out for Rosh Chodesh Adar. Although we are supposed to be marbeh b'simcha in Adar , the sad part is that this Beis Din (sic) and the instigators behind it practice "litzanus" a whole year round. For better or for worse the terms of a Zabla are very clear cut and negate any attempted cirumvention of it's rulings.
We should all realize that one side always walks away from a Din Torah disgruntled, and keep that in mind when reading all these diartibes against the Psak. Our goals should be of a constructive nature and not destructive.
(2/4/2011 3:42:00 AM)
We must prevail
Anyone who thinks it will be better to dissolve our beis din or to get rid of Rabbi Braun is simply fooling themselves. The Zablo has spoken, and the people have spoken. If most people didn't want him, he would not have been elected. Same for the Vaad Hakahal. That's the point of elections. Also there's something called a statute of limitations. If you had a problem with the psak of the Zabla, why didn't you come forward sooner?
On the brighter side, it is clear that as weak as our beis din is, there are other batei din that are even more of a joke, running around making political stunts like this. And if this is what Rabbi Braun's opponents are doing, aren't we glad they didn't win the election?
V'es Vahev Besufah.
(2/4/2011 1:31:31 PM)
to: 95
And same applys to Rabbi Osdoba and Segal
(2/4/2011 2:21:17 PM)
i agree with # 1,3,5,8,6,14.16,17,39,64,79,82,84,86
(2/4/2011 5:46:22 PM)
Reading the posts
(2/5/2011 8:45:58 PM)
wow! what a shame
here i am, a young high school girl LAUGHING at what is going on. I am not going to take sides, because that won't help. But think about it. I spend 8 hours a day, 6 days a week, where they try and "implement" emes in me. They try and teach me what is right. They try and give me an appreciation for torah, the rabbonim, the rebbe, they try and make us strong woman for tomorrow, v'chulu...
Then, i see what i have to be a strong mother, wife, and person later on for. For the "shtus" for everything else... Why is it worth it???
Oh, and before I go- i want to ask all of you 'strong' and 'supportive' adults out there: what do you think goes through our minds when we decide to "Go off what you started for us?" You think we can grow up in "the path you started for us" If all we see is THIS??
IS this a strong day in CH? No. I am sorry. Get a beis din that we can be proud of- then we can talk.
But don't flush tznius and respect for T"CH when you don't yourself.
if it's not achdus that makes you want to make this step- Do it for the next generation. For we are the ones who will bring the generation after us.
(2/6/2011 12:24:29 AM)
Who are they ?
How can it be that a bais din like this interferes in the rulings of the Bais Din of Rabbi Rosenberg which all parties are already going to. All the parties already agreed to go to Rabbi Rosenbergs Bais Din and abide by its rulings and this is where any discrepencies should be addressed as they have been such as Rav Brauns smicha from the Noteh Gavriel (Rav Gavriel Tzinner) which was resolved. How can they possibly do such a thing unless they are completely unaware? But in their own letter they do acknowledge that Rav Rosenberg is in charge. So if so, why do they interfere?
(2/6/2011 1:00:33 AM)
chaim sholom ber
does anyone think, that the BD will convene with Rabbi Yosef Braun participating.
I think there is one chance in a million if that.
(2/6/2011 4:53:04 PM)
whats a shame...
all the yeshivos and schools in crown heights may as well close. There is no point in them teaching what they are because after all- what are the messages the students get?They get messages like "rabbonim mean nothing" "a zabla has no effect" How do i know this? I know thi sbecause thisis the way I, and many of my peers feel. I am young High School girl who is told that i am the one whop has the power of the next generation. Now after all i do not come from any prominent family in crown heights who is all out there trying to continue the machlokes. I do not really hear very much about this- but then i go around and see the way it is treated in the open. And the ADULTS in the picture are sqwabbling the way pre-1aers are!!!
what am i to think? do i want to stay tznius?? Do i want to do what i have been raised to do? I think it is horrific and i do not want to be a part of such a community.
Think about the future generation- then fight and then try and do. I wont say what to do. What is right- but i want to open your eyes.
(2/6/2011 6:33:14 PM)
Get Real
We need Moshiach not shtus
(2/6/2011 7:38:16 PM)
rabbonim have a heart!
rabbi Braun is another human being, a jew. why is he being trated this way? if he has already been elcetd in to bais din, obviusly he is qualified! stop treating ur fellow jew in this manner!
(2/8/2011 12:19:26 AM)
go rabbi braun shlita
114 well said
(2/8/2011 4:12:41 PM)
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