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Monday, 21 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 24, 2019

    Should Abuser Be Shamed Forever

    Applied Chassidus webcast: Should abusers who paid their dues be shamed for the rest of their lives and passing trauma to others. Video

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    Shame
    Guest
    Shame

    They should be shamed as long as the person they abused is suffering …

    Yes
    Guest
    Yes

    Yes yes and an unequivocal YES THEY SHOULD BE SHAMED FOREVER.

    Sadly
    Guest
    Sadly

    These people need to be identified forever for the safety of others. That’s just scientific fact.

    Yes
    Guest
    Yes

    And don’t worry about their feelings, they don’t change

    It is not about shame
    Guest
    It is not about shame

    It is about saving other people from being abused in the future

    Source in Torah
    Guest
    Source in Torah

    What is the source for allowing a yid to be shamed publicly on the internet FOREVER,, thereby his family FOREVER.

    NO answer just comments
    Guest
    NO answer just comments

    A. There is a major difference between “making someone known” which will inevitably lead a person to feel shame, and actively and intentionally shaming someone for the actual sake of shaming.
    B. There is a major difference between the abuser, and the abusers family.

    Again I’m NOT answering the question as I don’t have the answer…just my two cents

    Think
    Guest
    Think

    Usually these people have issues and need to see therapy to good themselves and once they do they should be taken off. Many of these people want to be good they just have serious issues that they usually want to fix and usually they are suffering about what they did more than the person they abused. No one wants to walk around all his life a bad guy especially when they are good all around and they just have some serious issues that need major fixing and therefore once they are no longer a threat because they went to therapy… Read more »

    #7 abusive people follow a different logic
    Guest
    #7 abusive people follow a different logic

    The actual sake of shaming is means spirited but abusers are evil and mean spirited so they don’t deserve that leniency of not being shamed. They’d rather continue to abuse and be shamed if they can get away with it than not abuse and not be shamed. Also the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

    to #7
    Guest
    to #7

    agree completely

    Maybe just have a list
    Guest
    Maybe just have a list

    Maybe just have a list somewhere for people hiring a person or seeking a shidduch to do a background check. It does not need to be public to shame the family.

    Yes and no
    Guest
    Yes and no

    Yes they should be shamed but no it should not end there …they and they’re believers should endure the abuse they put others through.

    Ditto #7
    Guest
    Ditto #7

    There seems to be a very mean spirited and vindictive group right here commenting I don’t see why it MUST follow the person, and their family to their grave – provided they have received counseling, paid with time or counseling for the victim, and are continuing to be supervised. They should NEVER be trusted with children, if that’s who the victims were, but we must have a system that deals with the future of the perpetrators and their families And no, I am not related to an abuser, nor an abuser, just trying to think out of this mean box… Read more »

    #8 it's not like that
    Guest
    #8 it's not like that

    You are way off. Not all “abusers” are mean spirited. Some are suffering deeply. And many struggle deeply.

    Dear #12
    Guest
    Dear #12

    You say that You’re not related to an abuser and neither are you an abuser but what is very clear too is that you have never been severely abused either.

    #13 suggestion for you
    Guest
    #13 suggestion for you

    Why don’t you go through abuse and than see who’s the one that really suffers. Abusers are not helpless to desires and don’t suffer anger or temperament problems .They are evil and sociopathic. Feeling bad for them is like feeling bad for nazis.

    #13 really? I’m way off?
    Guest
    #13 really? I’m way off?

    Are you up for a lesson ? Do you want to put yourself in the hands of an abuser? Trust me only you would suffer is what you’d learn from that. Abusers don’t have self control issues. They know what they’re doing and deep down they don’t care and they like it because they are destroyed human beings and they want to take someone good and destroy them too .you can’t tell what someone is capable of until it’s done to you. You’re way off and you have no idea!

    what about the wrongfully accused
    Guest
    what about the wrongfully accused

    The problem with this whole topic, is that we become the judge, jury and executioner. If a website announces that someone is an abuser, that’s it we are demanded to believe. If we have a problem with the facts and question the integrity of the allegations – we are called names, harassed and bullied that we are equivalent to the so called abuser…because how dare we question a team of secret investigators who are not public law enforcement..how dare we.. .From zero to 180 – we are now abuse protectors – pedophile lovers. Shedding light on the abuse subject is… Read more »

    i was abused and this is how i feel
    Guest
    i was abused and this is how i feel

    i’m now in my early 50 ‘s the abuse was in my childhood by a family member. it ruined my childhood completely and caused me a lot of suffering as an adult . i feel totally at peace now . total and absolute forgiveness . i see my abuser at all family simchas and i have never confronted him. i wanted to in the past and decided i will wait and see if and when will be the right time . it never was as he has a lovely wife , children and i could never bring myself to cause… Read more »

    Unfortunately
    Guest
    Unfortunately

    Some of the worst abusers live freely while their victims live in fear and shame.

     Lets just vote to have abusers executed,
    Guest
    Lets just vote to have abusers executed,

    as what you are condemning them to is a life worse then death. Not excusing their crime, but what is true justice after all?

    When you begged someone to stop torturing you....and than read abuser sympathy comments...
    Guest
    When you begged someone to stop torturing you....and than read abuser sympathy comments...

    I opened up late about my abuse because I was traumatized. Therefore my abuser is a free man and I live in terror. So this would be a case where I the victim am the one living in fear and also shame because many don’t believe me.

    I never shamed my abuser and here are the results of that
    Guest
    I never shamed my abuser and here are the results of that

    Won’t post it but it’s worse than “the abusers shame” if they even deserve that acknowledgement

    #12
    Guest
    #12

    I submit that many people commenting and wanting to hang the abusers were also not abused, nor closely related to an abuse situation. #17 has a good point.
    True what #20 says, this is a life worse than death. and the victim is also living a terrible existence unless they get help. Help is available, for the victim at least. Is there no redemption or therapy to the abuser, ever?
    I have questions about that.

    Don't forgive or forget
    Guest
    Don't forgive or forget

    # 20. You are right. The victims never forget but their abusers have a right to go one with their life? No way and the principals or rebbeim who have any sympathy for abusers should be in jail also. They are also predators who dont care about children just their own name. My son was a victim and the yeshiva threw him out. This was 11 years ago and I will never forgive the hanholla of this school.

    Take shame away from the victims and shame all the abusers
    Guest
    Take shame away from the victims and shame all the abusers

    One thing I felt like saying for a long time and will use this platform here.to all those who think the secular society will keep you safe and keep a close watch on your abuser you are mistaken. The secular court fails many times with lenient sentences to abusers. It’s not only a problem in religious communities. Jewish community watch is an important organization but all the comments there about the Jewish community not doing enough is very true but at the same time the secular courts also fail many. Fact.

    Absolutely
    Guest
    Absolutely

    This isn’t bein adam lmakom. This will affect the victim for the rest of their lives. There’s no discussion here.

    Natural Consequence
    Guest
    Natural Consequence

    Unfortunately life long shame is a natural consequence to the offense. And yes Abusers do lack self control, if they had self control then they wouldn’t abuse. It similar to the ideas in chassidus, they come into the mind and then what happens? Do they act on them or do they push the thought out of their heads? Unfortunately abusers don’t think so far in advance as to what the consequence for their transgression will be. But even if they did, many of them were abused themselves. I believe the statistics are roughly one in six boys will be sexually… Read more »

    To #18
    Guest
    To #18

    You must be an incredibly strong person to be able to see this person & never react. But statistically, most victims’ responses are nowhere near yours. I am in my mid sixties & I suppressed what was done to me as a teen… and please believe me when I say what happened to me was nothing in comparison to the abuse suffered by Dassi Ehrlich and others. Most people would just dismiss it. Nevertheless I completely broke down Friday night to a close relative while the men were in shul. I could barely get the words out. After 50 years… Read more »

    RE: 18
    Guest
    RE: 18

    BH, you passed a test which is surely not simple but/and
    Your letter does not mention if any punitive, corrective or protective action was taken or if your patient silence might have enabled the abuser to hurt someone else chas ve’shalom

    hall of shame
    Guest
    hall of shame

    Who decides to put an ” abuser’s ” name on the hall of shame. What if its done to spite the person and in reality no abuse took place – then that name has to be erased from the hall of shame and the accuser will have to apologise and clear the victim.

    Oh no an abuser is being shamed?
    Guest
    Oh no an abuser is being shamed?

    Victims are shamed all the time!

    To #27
    Guest
    To #27

    Yes to shaming the abuser and even the abusers family members but not the abusers wife. Wives of abusers are under mind control and love in fear and abuse or just have Stockholm syndrome. Don’t judge battered wives but they should be encouraged to leave. Why are so many woman encouraged to stay in abusive marriages? There’s no shalom bay is in an abusive marriage , talk about a life sentence….

    Wall of Shame
    Guest
    Wall of Shame

    This is a very heated discussion and I always enjoy listening to Rabbi Simon Jacobson. If someone has been molested, they need to contact the authorities and police and prosecute the person to the fullest extent of the law. It is heart breaking and has to be stopped. But perhaps, the people behind this ‘wall of shame’ should also have some supervision and oversight. Perhaps we should have a ‘wall of shame’ for the shamers and there should be a class action suit against them for everyone person that was wrongfully accused. Where are their credentials, are they the arbiter… Read more »

    Prisoners are People Too!
    Guest
    Prisoners are People Too!

    I suggest that people look up JEM for the sicha “Prisoners are People Too! that the Rebbe gave.
    He doesn’t talk about shaming a person, he talks about rehabilitation and respect and what the Torah has to say about punishment.

    Justice
    Guest
    Justice

    Might put off any would-be abusers if they knew for certain that they will be shamed and shunned for life if found out and proven guilty of such acts.

    going too far
    Guest
    going too far

    as a victim myself i say the way of today’s dealing with this hasn’t made anyone more normal , stable, healthier or frum/ chassidish , we just giving all victims the excuse to be a victim their whole lives , just to do what they want, behave how they want coz hey we are a victim! my days of brushing things under the carpet i say was healthier ( not saying healthy but healthier ) , the ‘get over it ‘ attitude did us no harm and we taka got over it and carried on with our lives and stayed… Read more »

    Berel
    Guest
    Berel

    The tone of every discussion about this issue is frightening There is no appeal to Halacha. The entire reasoning is that abusers suffer infinitely and therefore so to must the abuser. That’s unhinged. Literally unhinged as there is no room to consider any nuance or even an upper bound on the punishment. Just a question for the mob: is there any torture fathomable that you believe some who abused NOT be subject to? Are there variances in punishments for different types and degrees of abuse or is it all the same? DO YOU ACCEPT the halacha as the authority on… Read more »

    To #33
    Guest
    To #33

    Much serious research has been done about child molesters & unfortunately these tivas NEVER go away – not thru therapy , not thru jail, and not thru “shaming”. But the mothers and fathers and teachers and school and camp administrators have a very serious responsibility : to protect our innocent children. This is simply impossible to do if we don’t know who the molesters are. What would the Rebbe say ? Pretty sure he would say what the Shulchan Orach says.

    12 steps/illness
    Guest
    12 steps/illness

    Unfortunately, the abuser is suffering too. I’m not justifying what they did and the pain of the abused.
    They have an illness and yes, we need to protect ourselves. What is the purpose of a wall of shame that ruins them and their families.
    I don’t have a quick and proper solution. Please consider all sides. Is shame the right way?
    They are generally sick people and yes, we do need to educate our children and protect them.
    There is help out there for both involved.

    To #37
    Guest
    To #37

    Please supply footnotes and sources where you are getting your information from

    People wake up !!
    Guest
    People wake up !!

    An abuser is = a KILLER!!! Therefore however you feel towards a killer than thats how you should feel towards an abuser!

    abusers never change
    Guest
    abusers never change

    Their need to abuse is pure evil

    Against  Torah values
    Guest
    Against Torah values

    Prosecute to the full extent of the law where G-d forbid abuse had happened But to say that someone who has sinned is always a sinner is against Torah values. In plain words that is ‘hogwash’ These so called watch groups do not have one Lubavitcher Rav on their board. Why? Because everything they do goes against Torah values. They set up their own ‘justice’ system ‘and shame people and their families in a very vindictive way. They try to get people fired and divorced The attorney general of America has been notified about this group and action is going… Read more »

    Ok some facts
    Guest
    Ok some facts

    Not every abuser is a pedophile. Some do it in the same way as an act of power and violence and not due to attraction. Currently the youngest record of an abuser is 5 years old. There is a very big debate in the secular world about preteens and teens who abuse- to what extent should they be held accountable and for which age? There is also conflicting evidence about who abuses again, and for what reason. There is a much higher likelihood of them committing other crimes as opposed to abusing. Why that is is still unclear. There are… Read more »

    Where do you limit the line of your love?
    Guest
    Where do you limit the line of your love?

    I have respect for the person who has been traumatized by a molester, and decides that life is worth more than resigning to live as a victim. As sad and difficult as some experiences leave us, a person’s character will shine its colors through life’s blessings as well as through the heavier times. I have respect for the members of JCW who’s mission is to stand for those who have been hurt, and help them realign themselves to live powerful lives. Are they perfect? Not likely. Do they make mistakes? Probably. Are they doing great things at a job that… Read more »

    Education will make it irrelevant
    Guest
    Education will make it irrelevant

    Unless the abuser is literally an evil person, there shouldn’t be shame, as in others shouldn’t go and actively shaming him/her. They are largely victims themselves who are essentially good people with a mental illness. Would people, intelligent people with families and jobs at stake, make a logical choice to commit these crimes? The decisions they make should indicate how serious the illness is. Being that to date there aren’t any real proven methods to “reform or rehabilitate” or the like, it’s understandable that people have decided to opt for a “know thine enemy” approach. It could work in keeping… Read more »

    Shame shame shame!!!
    Guest
    Shame shame shame!!!

    Even the question of wether an abuser should be shamed and not be able to move on with his life is wrong. He inflicted trauma and suffering to his once innocent victim. But the question is not concerned wether he suffers with guilt but wether he suffers from public shaming. So he wants to move on while his victim suffers, that he is okay with but public shaming he’s not okay with?so He’s able to move on while his victim suffers but he cannot move on while he’s publicly shamed? That alone shows lack of remorse! Shame!

    yes
    Guest
    yes

    abusers shall be shamed forever, for all eternity

    Bullies are abusers
    Guest
    Bullies are abusers

    But we don’t say someone who bullied others should be shamed or executed, and bullies never change either.
    As they grow older sometimes they learn to conceal it, and pretend they are not like that. But they never think of themselves as having done evil to their victims, who often suffer all their lives from it.

    Most abusers are evil people
    Guest
    Most abusers are evil people

    Good people do not intentionally hurt others. Humans are not pure animals and have the ability of self control and mind mind control, something which by the way many abusers are good at. They are good at using mind control over their victims. This is why humans scare me more than animals. Animals just might be better creations than humans. A lot of abusers do not have anger or self control issues but really are destroyed beings who seek to destroy isomeone good and whole and the most “successful “ damage their victim in the same way they are damaged.… Read more »

    I think the Abishter will have rachmonis on many individuals
    Guest
    I think the Abishter will have rachmonis on many individuals

    The beginning of healing is when we learn to forgive, even when it’s difficult, and when we forgive, we are forgiven as well, Baruch Hashem!!

    To 52
    Guest
    To 52

    Im still being abused by someone who has something on me so I can’t end it. I’m losing hope…. abusers are the scariest people and it’s easy to forgive them when they’re gone. I can’t stand your comment.

    to 53
    Guest
    to 53

    listen very carefully my dear , you absolutely can end it . nothing you ever did can compare to what’s being done to you! Blackmail is a very serious crime on its own so you stand up face that person and say no more abuse no more black mail , and go to the police . Tell a parent or teacher friend relative . Trust me when i tell you we have all done things we have regretting , a lot of us have skeletons in the closet! when we are young it looks terrible but as we get older… Read more »

    Proven facts
    Guest
    Proven facts

    So far nobody has produced solid research that a person cannot be healed or reformed. It just does not sound right, that someone should be shamed for life because they won’t heal. Speak to a knowledgeable therapist and you will see that every person, even the victim can heal and move on. Are JCW’s methods recognized in the field of sexual abuse and looked up to? Ask most any professional in the field, ABSOLUTELY NOT!! They are not respected, they are offenders themselves and in many, many cases have caused more damage than good. Should abusers be prosecuted, absolutely, without… Read more »

    TO 55 and enabler
    Guest
    TO 55 and enabler

    opposite of everything you said. J c w does good. Abusers and enablers will have their day. The therapist who said that too. Victims have a hard time healing. abusers never change unless they are really dealt with. but many times victims speak out too late and they don’t have proof.

    Harboring & nurturing hatred
    Guest
    Harboring & nurturing hatred

    letting it fester within your heart will ultimately do more damage to the host than to the one it’s directed at. I feel bad for you # 56 and a few others because you’re carrying a heavy unhealthy load that’s likely unnecessary. Wishing you well.

    abusers
    Guest
    abusers

    my friend’s great kid was abused and turned into a monster causing pain and tearing apart an entire family. should we forgive and forget this abuser? never!!!!!!!!!!!. This person should be shamed his entire life and if his wife and kids suffer, he should have thought of that before. yes they are victims of his choice of action not victims of an act of G-d like death caused by an accident or sickness where they are left orphans and widows

    Stopping Abuse
    Guest
    Stopping Abuse

    I think it is very, very important to report to the authorities immediately any abuse occurring. It has to stop. It is unacceptable that any child should be in danger. But I have done some research and googled the founder of a ‘watch group’ and I find the information about him troubling. There is a posting of him ‘threatening someone forever’. That is pretty scary. And drug rehab, etc. Are his methods legitimate? I don’t think so. Should the police be called when there is abuse? Yes. But to create your own justice system? No.

    To #58  Stop the Hate
    Guest
    To #58 Stop the Hate

    My heart goes out to the victim, but the way you speak is not according to Torah.
    The family needs counselling and therapy, but shame someone forever?
    Don’t think so.
    You need to follow the advice from a competent Rav, not some fly by night philospher.

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