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Shluchim Differ on ‘Kosher Switch’

Chabad Shluchim filmed their differing opinions on the new "Kosher Switch" technology to control electricity on Shabbos. UPDATE: A Shulchan Aruch expert weighs in. Full Story, Video

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to 91
May 9, 2015 5:39 am

it happens to be that manis also tells people not to vaccinate their children…

What would happen if it was found to be 100% kosher?
April 29, 2015 8:35 pm

Assume for a moment the this switch is 100% fine. The outcome is that each and every one of the 39 melachos that can be accomplished by electricity, can be made to happen during Shabbos by you and me flicking this switch. This, in the world we presently live in, applies to almost all the 39 melachos. So be honest for a minute. Should such a switch be 100% kosher, your Shabbos rest will be out the window. Your Shabbos sensitivities will be out the window. You’ll have cooking, dishwashing, laundry, bank payments, pre-programmed email replies, pre-recorded phone calls, auto… Read more »

To 120
April 28, 2015 1:06 am

You are correct (you meant to write a “choleh to the cold”). That is why halachakly inadept people should not be talking about halacha and the complex laws of amirah e’akum.
Also an “amazing” comparison to the “kosher lamp”.

mamish nachas
April 28, 2015 12:37 am

Hashem is deriving the Ultimate enjoyment right now, ” look at my children after 2000 years they still remember my special day eather to enjoy it more or to sanctifie it”. theBeauty of the Jews is; there not going to kill each other about it, they will still eat at each others house on shabbos. “there are sevnty facets of torah”.

my question is; when the light is on and the green signal illuminates does the light turn off then becues the pulses have stoped?

Wrong
April 27, 2015 11:03 am

BH I’ll tell you why else this should be absolutely forbidden for Shabbos use: Habit. EVEN IF it would be kosher, it shouldn’t be used regularly b/c then people will get used to flipping switches. I can’t stand when marketers think they can prey on people and get them to be lax about halacha. Yuch!!

didn't read all comments but
April 26, 2015 11:14 pm

Rabbi Heche since when is it mutter to have a goy turn on the stove to keep the food warm. Heat for the cold is a special halacha because we are like a choice to the cold

shepping נחת
April 26, 2015 7:35 pm

It’s nice to see ppl having a תורה based discussion in the comment section of col

פסיק רישא
April 26, 2015 7:32 pm

I don’t understand, how is it any different than the famous example of the gemmara פסיק רישא ולא ימות?

to #113
April 26, 2015 3:17 pm

Now that I think about it, you are right. It *IS* assur to cut through writing on a cake, so when a cake that would otherwise have writing is baked to be eaten on Shabbos, typically a separate piece of chocolate is made with the writing on it, which is given to someone to eat by biting.

This makes the stated comment of the Alter Rebbe all the more significant, since he states that the father may not give his child such a cookie on Shabbos. Obviously this is for chinuch.

To 111
April 26, 2015 9:18 am

You don’t bring proofs from gemaras on how to act practically

Rabbonim
April 26, 2015 9:17 am

Our rabbonim have to come with statements against this chilul shabbos

#88
April 26, 2015 9:12 am

Its not assur for anyone to bite into a cookie/ piece of cake with writing it!

#88
April 26, 2015 7:15 am

And the Alter Rebbe also says in that same siman that if you get a child to do a melachah for you, it’s an issue de’orayso

To #101 To keep the integrity of Yiddishkeit
April 26, 2015 2:48 am

You don’t have to be a big Rabbi to know that: 1. The onus of proof here falls squarely on anyone that wants to change the “Matbea” rule of the torah. Halacha or Takana. Especially when you are encouraging ALL of KLALL YISROEL, to do CHILLUL SHABBOS, with your HECHSHER! Rachmana Litzlan! So before people go out and sell, a new a self proclaimed “kosher” switch, they should first check with a Beth Din Tzeddeck, to prove it, or at least have a consensus of truly recognized Gedoley Haddor, to come out with a Real Psak befitting the seriousness of… Read more »

Another Clear proof that this swicth is forbidden on Shabbos.
April 26, 2015 2:01 am

Below is another proof of why the Shabbos (Kosher?) switch is forbidden on Shabbos. The main idea is that winnowing is chiuv on Shabbos even though the wind does the separating. Thus we see that one does not need to do the melacha, yet is 100% considered as if they did it and is fully chiuv. בב”ק ס,א ת”ר ליבה ולבתה הרוח אם יש בלבויו כדי ללבותה חייב ואם לאו פטור אמאי ליהוי כזורה ורוח מסייעתו אמר אביי הכא במאי עסקינן כגון שליבה מצד אחד ולבתו הרוח מצד אחר רבא אמר כגון שליבה ברוח מצויה ולבתו הרוח ברוח שאינה מצויה… Read more »

to no. 93 (no you may not add wood)
April 26, 2015 1:34 am

There is also a halacha that says that you are forbidden from setting up a mouse trap on shabbos.
Even though you may or may not catch a mouse on Shabbos, still you are not permitted to set up the trap.
And even though the mouse, if he is caught, will be caught a long time after you set up the trap.

This weeks Ami
April 26, 2015 12:47 am

In this weeks Ami magazine there was an article where Rabbonim were misquoted or misinformed.
Seems like most Rabbonim (none Chabad) said it was ok for a sick person.
Please ask your local Rov.

programmed randomness isn't random
April 26, 2015 12:29 am

As a former software developer, I have to point out that programmed randomness isn’t random, the programmer has to use some kind of algorithm that creates an ILLUSION of randomness.

to #88
April 26, 2015 12:27 am

Do you not see a difference between allowing a child under 3 to eat a cookie with writing on it (because the child wants to), and getting the same child to flip a light switch because YOU want it?

And if even the cookie would be acceptable, why would the father not be allowed to be the one to give it to the child? Maybe because it’s not such a good idea? Like IT’S THE OPPOSITE OF KOSHER CHINUCH?

Kosher switch are scammers
April 25, 2015 10:26 pm

They write that they have aprobations from leading poskim. The issue is Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem’s Old City Rabbi Avigdor Nebenzahl is listed among the rabbonim approving the product. After aconversation with Rav Nebenzahl on 20 Elul 5771, the rav said he never gave such an endorsement. Similarly, rabbi newirth is qoated saying it’s fine. But when contacted he said that certainly there is no approbation for use other than for security and medical professionals.

Americas leading poskim say its assur
April 25, 2015 10:20 pm

Rabbi Belsky and Rabbi Dovid Feinstein say it’s totally assur. How can anyone think otherwise??!!

to 101
April 25, 2015 10:14 pm

The point is that grama includes any form of causation. making it random and relitivly unpredictable doesn’t meen its not your caused action (imagen if it was a case where someone gets damaged if you flick this “kosher swich on” would u say i didnt cause it???would u do it lechatchila??? Of course noone would say that)

Rabbi Dovid Schochet
April 25, 2015 9:52 pm

Rabbi Schochet from Toronto completele prohibits the use of a switch

ALFRED E NEWMAN
April 25, 2015 8:00 pm

I’VE HEARD OF LIGHT UNTO THE NATIONS BUT THIS LIGHT IS RIDICULOUS

It would be nice of those rabbonim who comment understood the facts
April 24, 2015 9:27 pm

I am no posek, and therefore not entitled to assert an opinion. However, I wish rabbonim would not discredit themselves. They keep discussing gromo, when the claim is that THERE IS NO GROMO! It may well be assur, but with all due respect to Rabbi L and others, please show that you know what is happening on the technology first and then comment. There is supposedly random pulses. Plus supposedly random moments of possible reception to the pulse. Apparently the programmed randomness is considered random. This is one point that requires analysis. For *programmed* randomness means that following the maths… Read more »

It oser
April 24, 2015 6:48 pm

Acoording to the alter rebbe in kuntres acharon it oser

אסור לגמרי
April 24, 2015 5:38 pm

מי אנחנו ומה אנחנו להתיר דבר שגדולי ישראל אסרו

to #93 Dishonest thinking
April 24, 2015 4:47 pm

The real dishonest thinking here is, that you convince yourself that you supposedly don’t want, or know how or whats going to happen, with %100 absolute certainty. after you move your “kosher” plastic Lid, Lichatichila! with intention. if you remove the lid ON Shabbos, DIRECTLY because YOU WANT a piece of wood cut for your use on shabbos, then it makes no difference how many preset running robots ,arms and systems are employed by you. it was Your ACTION of lifting the lid to have the wood cut with your full premeditated INTENTION. its impossible to be allowed to do… Read more »

devils work
April 24, 2015 4:36 pm

that pic of the lady with her kid putting a switch-it is forbidden to get your child to michalel shabbos. how about we get some shiurim in our communitees on how to properly observe the shabos, because there aint any, and people are breaking shabos all the time bc they aint knowing how to keep it.

a problem
April 24, 2015 4:32 pm

its a problem because it is questionable halachically, shluchim are not poskim, and it for sure cheapens shabos, no question. keep it out of jewish home.

to 89
April 24, 2015 4:14 pm

are you allowed on shabbos, to take a pot full of raw food, and place it on a stove , with a timer preset before shabbat, and the timer will turn the stove on shabbat morning. are you allowed to do that?intentionally in the first place. Are you alowed to eat the food on shabbos, even if you did it by mistake?or indirectly?

You would not be allowed to benefit from the light of a “kosher switch”neither.

like adding a log to a fire on shabbos itself.
April 24, 2015 3:59 pm

am I allowed to add a log to a fire on Shabbos?
No.

hey but wait a minute you say, I’m not burning the log, I’m just putting the log in the fireplace near the fire, the fire is burning log. not me.

Hmmm. Let’s think about that….

somehow I think it’s not okay.

#84 no, you may not add wood
April 24, 2015 3:56 pm

No, you may not put wood where you know the saw will go on. But that is not what is happening here, and you know it, so stop with the dishonest analogies. (The same goes for R Levin’s letter; using the analogy he does shows that he has clearly not considered this at all.) If you want a wood saw analogy, this is it: You have set up the saw before Shabbos to turn on every 30 seconds, and you have also set up a robot arm to put a piece of wood on the table every 30 seconds, but… Read more »

#81 it is certainly permitted
April 24, 2015 3:49 pm

Who relies on such games? *Everyone* I know, that’s who.

#76 Kaminetsky
April 24, 2015 3:48 pm

Kaminetsky tells parents not to vaccinate their children. That alone rules him out from any serious consideration as a posek.

it's worse than Amira.LiNochri.
April 24, 2015 3:47 pm

You just get it done yourself.
The computer inside has no independent brain, or personal motive to open the light.

One of the rabbis on their site compares it to a goy! He said “its not me who turns on the light, its “him” he” (the switch) is doing it all”

How rediculous is that.
Its a running system that you are using at will as a tool, on shabbos, with intention to turn on your light.

Its all you!

#75 nonsense
April 24, 2015 3:47 pm

You are not doing a melacha at all. You are not causing a melacha to be done. You are not preparing to do a melacha later. You are merely removing something that would have prevented something from happening at some future time of its own accord. No, you may not set a trap on shabbos, but you may set a trap *before* shabbos, and then on shabbos you may open a door that separates the prey from the trap, so that it can approach the trap and be caught.

#71 since when?
April 24, 2015 3:40 pm

Since when does doing melacha on Shabbos poison a child’s soul? Where did you learn such nonsense? This is not maacholos asuros. On the contrary, the Alter Rebbe paskens clearly that (unless you are the child’s father) it is permitted to give a child a cookie with writing on it on Shabbos, even though you know he is going to eat it.

#62 can't read
April 24, 2015 3:37 pm

You quoted the correct se’if, but didn’t bother reading it. Yes, the Alter Rebbe says you can’t open the door even if the wind is not blowing right now, but WHY? He gives the reason; read it, and then consider that this reason absolutely does not apply to the “kosher switch”. In fact that sentence is the greatest argument FOR the switch. (There are other arguments against it, but you davka quoted one that works FOR it, without realizing it.)

Gramma is not all
April 24, 2015 3:33 pm

A Gramma can’t be done in the face of Lichatchila miskaven psick-reisha.

Indirect is not indirect and not kosher.
If You know you’re going to do it. Even indirectly
You want it to be done.
It will certainly happen as a result of your “indirect” action.

Conclusion.
The “kosher” switch is really Not Kosher at all.

Big big mistake.

@82
April 24, 2015 3:20 pm

Grama. Bimiskaven. Lichatchila. Is muttar?
Not.

unintentional and Intentional are not the same thing.

“Indirect”. Does not equal “Mistake!”

the alleged hetter is based on limited knowlage.
April 24, 2015 3:08 pm

Based on the information they published. . It’s clear, that The people who think is “kosher” Look at it in a very limited narrow view. They think if the switch is not electrical your clear. WRONG. They don’t take in to consideration the wider issues. Electricity in switches are Not the only possible violation here. Lichatchila. Premeditated. Miskaven. Intentionally done. Psik reisha.. It will certainly happen Its not an Eiroove Its not a timer. Its not a thurmotat. (That in and of itsellff if not so pashut) .let’s say I had a table saw running all shaboss, going on and… Read more »

ultimately there is No real "randomness"
April 24, 2015 2:36 pm

ultimately there is No real “randomness”
Because as far as you – the person flipping the switch – is concerned,
Your system does exactly what your trying to get done.
Tuning on a light on shabbis.

The only aspect you can’t predict is exactly in what second it will be triggered. Because there are micro relays in the programming. So what. Its like using a shaky tool.

When it works for you, you got the resunt you triggerd and what you want.

Sof maaseh bimachshovo tichilah. Kavana is critical.

#77
April 24, 2015 2:07 pm

actually one who kills with a “Grama gun” would be pottur
-rav pappa, sanhedrin 77b

kid hitting switch is Ossur
April 24, 2015 1:38 pm

That is not permissible either!! The switch game… Pfft… Who relies on such things?!?!

Hit by Lightning
April 24, 2015 1:27 pm

Let me tell you. I am NO expert here at all. But when I saw that video clip advertising this chillul Shabbos light switch, where this guy asks a lady to come up to his BEDROOM because he needs her to open the light…. I said to myself that these people are NOT erlich and I don’t trust them. Hey – Trust me… I am quite a big leitz myself, I know a good joke. (btw, It happens to be funny), but to put this type of fun into Shabbos in front of families and kids. FEH!!! -Check it out… Read more »

it feels so wrong!
April 24, 2015 12:40 pm

Ugh I dont approve of this at all

The video also leaves a bad taste
April 24, 2015 12:30 pm

A woman wearing heavy makeup and acting up to an audience of thousands of frum community members, men, women and children seemed a little off to me, even embarrassing. But I guess this is normal now.

1 simple question
April 24, 2015 12:26 pm

1 simple question for those who say it’s permissible.

If we setup a gun in same fashion and someone would pull trigger at someone sitting outside and thus killing him would he then not be responsible for murder

#4 's comment shows how low we can go
April 24, 2015 12:23 pm

I am not surprised that #4 agrees with the use of this light switch on Shabbos. Anyone who can write about Rav Kaminetzky she”y, one of the clearest minds and the leading posek in America, that his signature “doesn’t count” because “he is over 90 and I am sure they just copied and pasted his name” – must be lacking in a basic yiras shomayim. Have you spoken to R’ Kaminetzky lately?

meir z
April 24, 2015 12:18 pm

I have not seen it anyone mentioning anything beyond the “groma” problem. The problem I thought of was the Issur of “mimtsoi cheftsicha” (see SA HORAV 306:1&5). Especially this sentence: אלא שעושה איזה מעשה המותר אפילו הליכה בלבדה ומעשה זה או הילוך זה הוא בשביל כדי לעשות אחר השבת איזה דבר שאסור לעשותו בשבת בין מן התורה בין מדברי סופרים שנמצא מזמין עצמו בשבת בפועל ממש לא בהרהור לבד לדבר האסור בשבת I think all the more so doing an action that will effect a Melacha to happen on its own, similar to setting a trap on Shabbos to capture… Read more »

to 26
April 24, 2015 12:16 pm

I assume you are one of us amei ha’aretzim

Why give an opinion?
April 24, 2015 12:00 pm

are they rabonim?
people need to recognize there place!

Not sure why collive would publish this
April 24, 2015 11:09 am

I am not clear as to why collive would publish this — it’s bad enough that shluchim who are not rabbonim would express opinions that are clearly contradictory to halacha, why publicize this on a public website identified as Lubavitch? It would have been much better to get a definitive psak from either the CH Beis Din or someone like Rabbi Schochet the Rosh Yeshiva in L.A., and just print that.

#39, #42, and #62 hit the nail on the head
April 24, 2015 11:06 am

The story from the Rebbe is exactly applicable, as is the quote from the Alter Rebbe’s Shulchan Aruch. And the quote from HaYom Yom is right on point, so good that I want to repeat it: 

”You cannot fool G-d; ultimately, you cannot fool others either. The only one you can fool is yourself. And to fool a fool is no great achievement.” -Hayom Yom Separately I noticed also that the first photo shows a baby being held in position to kick the switch on or off. Shame on anyone who relies on their small child to do melachos on… Read more »

Ironic
April 24, 2015 10:52 am

What’s ironic is that at least in the video the boy knows that a real switch is ossur, whereas in a house where this so called “kosher switch” is used the boy may not know that it’s forbidden to use a switch. This is besides for the fact that it’s most likely a fake heater either way.

same old story
April 24, 2015 10:50 am

Galoshes was considered very modern apparel, when it came out more than 100 years ago. If a shochet was found wearing galoshes, his shechita would be banned. Anything new and dramatically different will always bring with it controversy. So It may or may not be a kosher gadget for Shabbos use.

Rabbi Kopel
April 24, 2015 10:44 am

i was a student of rabbi kopel and i can personally say he is a great man and a great scholar

Surprised
April 24, 2015 10:19 am

They are all intelligent enough to be aware of the idea that you defer to rabbonim with respect to halachic issues, especially considering an issue of this import.

Every time you open a fridge
April 24, 2015 10:19 am

SHabbas you cause the motor to run and it is intentional to keep the fridge cold.

That is why Rav Henkin would unplug his fridge shabbas.

We all use a fridge and why because it is doesnt happen right away same here

Chabad and Innovation
April 24, 2015 10:15 am

It’s understandable that some Chabadniks would fall for this. Not because they’re looking for an easier life, or a chance to be free, but because they think it will help yidden keep Shabbos. And because they are suspicious of the “velt” and those whose knee-jerk reaction is to forbid everything. But as we are now in the week of Tiferes, which is balance, we must balance our Chesed with Gevurah. The Rebbe loved Jews more than we can imagine but was extremely cautious when it came to halacha and halachic innovations. The leading halachic experts of our time have said… Read more »

SOME ANASH ARE ALREADY USING IT EVERY SHABBOS
April 24, 2015 10:06 am

PLEASE DON’T COME UP WITH COMPLICATED EXPLANATIONS!
JUST DO WHAT THE SENIOR RABBANIN AND POSKIM ARE TELLING YOU TO DO!
IT IS TREIF SWITCH

Another COTS. Klipa
April 24, 2015 10:04 am

Another COTSke. Klipa is attacking
It us unbelievable how the Satan can caught these “rabbis” with asboros to push them little by little out of the kedusha
How many ppl would,cv ,start mechalel Shabbos little by little because of this?rl
COTS coming back in different angles

Clear Halacha!
April 24, 2015 9:56 am

The alter Rebbe says: א נר דולק שהוא מונח קרוב אל הדלת (נגד פתיחת הדלת ממש) בענין שכשיפתחו הדלת יוכל לכבות אם ינשב הרוח מבחוץ אסור לפתוח הדלת כנגדו שמא יכבנו הרוח ואף שאינו מתכוון לכיבוי ודבר שאינו מתכוין מותר מכל מקום כיון שאם ינשב הרוח אי אפשר שלא יכבה ופסיק רישיה ולא ימות הוא לפיכך אף בשעה שאין רוח מנשב בחוץ אסור לפותחה שמא יתחיל לנשב מיד שיתחיל לפתוח In short, if a candle is near a door, it is forbidden to open door since a wind will forsure come some time throughout day and and will extinguish flame.… Read more »

Amazing!!
April 24, 2015 9:06 am

So many “halachic” experts here
It had been the most predictable factor that Chabad will be different then the rest when it comes to Halacha
Just remember that hot plates and timers got the same controversial receptions when that new technology was introduced back in the day

Tremendous chilul shabbos!
April 24, 2015 8:57 am

Rabbi Belsky paskened that if there was a Beis din around and one would use the kosher switch, they would be liable to death punishment. Anyone who tells people it’s allowed for use are liable for causing global chilul shabbos. They must come out with statements retracting what they said!

To 25
April 24, 2015 5:43 am

Yes, it’s similar to the plastic switches on a timer. You are assuming that its asur to move those like turning on a switch but I dont think it’s that simple. Also, the kosherswitch is similar with an additional factor of the randomness.

Did you know that its permissible to adjust a non electrical thermostat (when it wont immediately effect the machines working)?

Grama Switch
April 24, 2015 5:06 am

The Technology is old & very well known for many years. It’s a Grama Switch which is very controversial it is allowed only for hospitals etc..
It’s not approved by the Poskim of the Eidah Hacharidit and the like. By the way Tsomet is known to be lenient.

Kosher Switch?
April 24, 2015 2:56 am

I can’t believe “America’s Rabbi” wasn’t the one to come up with this one!

this is Not "The Shabbos lamp"
April 24, 2015 2:29 am

“The Shabbos lamp” is really always on, you never change a thing,
all you do is turn a separate lid, that covers or uncovers the light that is always actually on.

very very different.

Please check out todays Rambam
April 24, 2015 2:28 am

Which says that although taking out a freshly baked Challa from oven on Shabbis is not a Melacha, nonetheless, the Rabbis didnt allow it since it may cause people to think youre permitted to bake on shabbos.
Isnt that the same issue with the switch.

It's NOT Like a "Timer" at all.
April 24, 2015 2:24 am

The AmHoratutz is astounding!

Real Chabad Rabbonim
April 24, 2015 2:20 am

Real Chabad Rabbonim Passken That its 100% ASUR FORBIDDEN

using a fridge
April 24, 2015 2:14 am

here in Israel, we are fortunate to use a fridge that has a shabbos mode, meaning that it keeps the temperature a stable mode thoughout its operation and does not react to the opening of the fridge, everybody should find out if using their fridge is still ok, considering the advancement of very sensitive sensors

How can it be?
April 24, 2015 2:11 am

How can ONE or two good talkers, or pulpit rabbis, have the nerve to instruct yidden to commit chilul shabbos!!!

based on their own, obviously LIMITED understanding of hilchos Shabbos, single handedly write or say what they did!!!

[all Binoscho All TiShoein!!!]

Did you sit in joint beth Din, of Real DAYANIM, when you came to your conclusion? to be mattir such a DIN that you obviously DON’T understand?

a little Yirass Shomaim !!!

mendy oifen BBQ
April 24, 2015 1:59 am

new poskim in lubavitch

Not good for hospitals , nothing gained hallachicly.
April 24, 2015 1:48 am

first off, it would be confusing, people would think that there is some Hetter to it. and there is not.

besides why should a sick person need to experience any extra discomfort by waiting for the light.

Bubba Meise
April 24, 2015 1:46 am

What’s this fantastic invention? Electronic switches have been around for some time. Motion detectors, electronic door openers and many electronic devices work by releasing or blocking a light or electronic beam or or even a flow of electrons changing the conductivity as in transistors or solenoids. So why should this crude electronic switch be permitted? And why does this guy pretend to be some scientific genius, who has come up with something so revolutionary, that some rabbis seem to permit it ?

Intellectual dishonesty, at play.
April 24, 2015 1:42 am

One of the main “Hetarim” they try to use is that moving the switch is like, opening a door to go to out to of your house to go visit a friend, and you think the weather is calm, so you open the door, but to your surprise a strong wind came and fanned a fire close to the opened door. so since it was done by Mistake and Unintentionally and inadvertently caused the fire to roar. your OK. it was totally unexpected and unintentional. good. Yet with this “Kosher” switch, however, 1. its not inadvertently. You are actively the… Read more »

Hallacha fiction.
April 24, 2015 1:02 am

wake up and smell the tchollent.

There ain’t no “time machine”
and there ain’t no “kosher switch” neither.

sorry folks,

The "Technology" is IRRELEVANT
April 24, 2015 12:53 am

Q.
Can you ON SHABBOS, INTENTIONALLY use, a line up of 1000 dominoes, with all kinds of fancy relay systems…
trigger after trigger to eventually hit a light switch, for you to have light ON shabbos?

Can you do it?

A.
Of course NOT!

The “Technology” is IRRELEVANT
.all that matters is,
YOUR INTENTION AS YOU ACT,

Systems are just tools. in YOUR hand. no matter how sophisticated, a tool is just a tool.

You know exactly how you WANT the expected out come to be. and thats why you move the first piece of “plastic” domino.

Rabbis Hecht and Friedman must retract asap!
April 24, 2015 12:40 am

They are not rabbanim and should not comment on halacha!
They are causing chilul shabbos by those who don’t the difference between a rov and rabbi, and think Chabad allows it!

KAVANA is KEY
April 24, 2015 12:26 am

Premeditated (melachah) creation on shabbos.

if you cant even tell a goy directly,
on shabbos to do a milocho for you.

how then can you be the one to set in motion a 100 % premeditated system to turn on a fire on shabbos!

it’s absurd!

MonuMENTAL Halachic blunder, it’s not kosher at all.


April 24, 2015 12:17 am

The so-called “Kosher” switch, is a MonuMENTAL Halachic blunder, it’s not kosher at all. think for a second. Compare it to setting a simple mouse kill-trap during Shabbat. Which happens to be absolutely forbidden. Even though you may want to – convince – yourself that you are not the one who triggers the trap, it’s the uncertainness of a random act of the mouse that may or may not, trigger the trap. but guess what, its still absolutely forbidden to set it on shabbat itself. Compare this to the non“Kosher” switch, that you absolutely want and expect, that within 30… Read more »

Modern technology
April 24, 2015 12:17 am

So the computer will know what you’re thinking is have to think about lights on lights off it will happen

??????
April 24, 2015 12:16 am

here we go again, what does a Shliach Roshi know about any of this, unless he is a Rov a True, real Poseik, not a Rabbi that announces candle lighting times, or as #36 says Shluchim Hroshim, either he is a Poseik or he is not

story from the Rebbe
April 24, 2015 12:02 am

In the early years of the Rebbe’s nissius Rabbi Gorden from NJ was a Rabbi in a shul that the board wanted to use a microphone on Shaboss Rabbi Gorden said no they said yes so he said lets ask the Rebbe so they all went to the Rebbe and they thought the Rebbe, a smart young Rabbi, will agree with them and not the old Rabbi. The Rebbe’s response was there are 3 types of people. 1.Understand and know Halacha and not electrical. 2. Know electrical but not Halacha 3. Understand and know Halacha and Understand and know electrical.… Read more »

Marit ayin issues here!
April 23, 2015 11:59 pm

There are technically permissible activities we don’t do on Shabbos simply because of marit ayin!

It would appear that this invention also brings up concerns of marit ayin (at minimum)!

where are we?
April 23, 2015 11:58 pm

This reminds me of the same people who said the earth is flat and when are people going to realize that Halacha and technology are not enemies.why can’t people do something that will actually make life easier?wake up and stop acting like ignorant people who cannot understand the technology?????

Rav M'Tam
April 23, 2015 11:30 pm

This is wrong, only Shluchim haRoshim who take responsibility for an entire State or Country should give an opinion. We cannot leave such an important matter as Isur Shabbos to each and every smaller Shliach.

Misleading title
April 23, 2015 11:11 pm

gives the impression that Rabbi Levin is on the same halachik par as the other 3. Rabbis Friedman, Hecht and Kopel may be good at being social philosophers, giving inspiring sermons and making meals for israeli backpackers, but their knowledge of halacha is evidently elementary.

To # 24
April 23, 2015 11:11 pm

(Interesting name you have)
I agree with you, only one point, it should be said with a bit more Derech Eretz.

I also heard
April 23, 2015 10:54 pm

That some (or all?) of the Rabbonim who permitted it – had understand that it was only for hospitals and the like (where Shabbos elevators etc are needed at times) and not for everyday use. And thus they decried the misuse of their psakim.

wondering on rabbi Levin..
April 23, 2015 10:51 pm

Did he get a full run down on the mechanism’s workings? Or was he just given an undetailed overview on the concept? I find it hard to believe the guy who invented the device overlooked the SIMPLE halochos rabbi Levin is posing!

Rabbi Levin finishes off by saying: “I don’t know on which basis this heter relies on”, well he should find out first.

Also their video gets an A for presentation, but fails to properly explain the workings of the device , and why it’s permissible.

D G

April fool's joke??
April 23, 2015 10:47 pm

A little late for that. This article is so disappointing in going to have to look at it as one big joke.
The plastic, the switch, the spirit of Shabbos, the shluchim weighing in on it.. So wrong on so many levels.

Shluchim are not rabbonim
April 23, 2015 10:33 pm

Shluchim (including Manis) aren’t rabbonim. They have no right to say anything in the realm of Halacha. Especially if it seems as if they are representing chabad. It’s total ignoramousy to say the switch is ok. All poskey hadoor say it’s forbidden.

Beyond halacha
April 23, 2015 10:25 pm

What kind of chinuch is this for our children? Switching a ‘piece of plastic’ ! Whether or not this is halachic, which I doubt, this is seemingly highly against the spirit of Shabbos and not a good example for our children and beyond.

treif switch
April 23, 2015 10:00 pm

stop asking ppl who are not poskim and have not even bothered studying the device.

Scientist Differ whether eating chicken and milk is דארייתא or דרבנן
April 23, 2015 9:53 pm

This is a matter that should be dealt with by rabbonim

WOW
April 23, 2015 9:52 pm

A new chabad platform to discuss halacha. COLLIVE. maybe we should take votes to see if there is a majority to allow the use of this switch on shabbos? halacha is not a subject of discussion for AMEY HAARETZ that read news websites. Halacha is for Rabbonim to decide not for so called “SAM SAPOZSNIKS” (Shoe makers)

let's now permit people to move plastic triggers on their Shabbos clocks
April 23, 2015 9:50 pm

Based on the rational for permitting this switch, what’s to stop one from moving or removing a trigger switch on a Shabbos clock or turning the entire mechanical clock back a few hours without accidentally shutting or turning on the appliance to add or subtract a few hours of AC or something of the sort Have you heard there is a also a new invention to allow full use of cellphones on Shabbos via a new app that leaves the light on etc Ask certain rabbis, and you can find a heter for almost anything…. but the Torah teaches us… Read more »

Fresser Rebbe says
April 23, 2015 9:47 pm

Who ever gave these so called rabbis the רשות to pasken שאלות חמורות like the one being discussed here, a Shliach who has a rushed סמיכה just so that he could have it hanging in his office, should not give his opinion, let him run the model matzah bakery and the Judah makabi olive press etc etc, and the real halachick questions should be left to the real Rabbis

This is a chilul Lubavitch sheain kamohu
April 23, 2015 9:35 pm

Reb Moshe wrote how even much more minor things would not be permitted because it would take away from shebisa (resting). Other commentators pointed out clear problems from Shulchan Aruch. It also seems like more of a direct action than a groma. This is not halachically sound on any level and to interview shluchim on it devalues them and their tafkid.

With all due respects to Shluchim
April 23, 2015 9:32 pm

Are these shluchim in this article Poskim? Do they all have Smicha? Let the Shluchim do what they do best and let the Poskim do what they do best.

letter vs. spirit
April 23, 2015 9:29 pm

Even if we find out later it’s allowed according to the letter of the law, it’s not really in the spirit of the laws of shabbos…and that we can all agree on….

Mr Switch
April 23, 2015 9:27 pm

You have uncovered and displayed the essence of this “stuff”. (The Kosher light, The Kosher Platter, now the Kosher switch.) The extension is your one day Yom Tov “dream”. Just another prikas oyl that will enhance the superficial spirit of Shabbos for the porkei oyl. To find this attitude so rampant, with all the attendant righteous indignation, in Chabad, the “should be energizer in avoidas Hashem”, is the current application of the term “Amerika is nisht andersh,. Yes, Yes, of course the matter should reside in the sifrei halacha, and if they (Poskim) approve, then it is kosher. But there… Read more »

Stop calling it
April 23, 2015 9:24 pm

Call it what you want but you are not “turning on” a light on shabbos. The light was turned on BEFORE shabbos. Just like a timer. If you have a timer on before shabbos and move the plastic pieces it would be similer plus you need to add the randomness.

Again the switch was activated BEFORE shabbos just like a timer. If you don’t use an eruv you’ll probably not use this. If you don’t open a fridge on shabbos because the thermostat will kick in. But if you do then take this more seriously…

Yossi A
April 23, 2015 9:20 pm

Check out YWN.
For a detailed report Why it’s 1000% forbidden to be used..

Dissapointed
April 23, 2015 8:56 pm

Rabbi af and other wonderful shluchim going out of their comfort zone and giving verdicts on areas they are not expert in.

To: ALFRED E Newman
April 23, 2015 8:50 pm

B”H

Thank you for the comment. Cannot say better!

"ABUSE OF CHABAD ASSOCIATION"
April 23, 2015 8:49 pm

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THESE TWO CHABAD SHLUCHIM,THEIR COMMENTS ABOUT THE SWITCH CONVEYS A PERCEPTION THAT THE SWITCH IS ALLOWED BY RABBONEI CHABAD. WE HAVE MANY RABBONIM IN LUBAVITCH THAT ARE DEFACTO POSKIM, AND I AM SURE THAT THEY WILL WITHOUT EXCEPTION DEED THE USE OF THIS SWITCH AS CHILUL SHABBOS, AS WILL MOST ACCEPTED, AUTHORATATIVE RABBONIM. THESE TWO SHOULD EITHER RETRACT THEIR STATEMENTS, OR ISSUE A DISCLAIMER THAT THIS IS THEIR PERSONAL OPINION, AND THAT THEY ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF ANY HALACHIC DECISIONS OF CHABAD-LUBAVITCH.

Shabbos
April 23, 2015 8:43 pm

Why is this different then the shabbos lamp??

what does it mean
April 23, 2015 8:40 pm

shluchim differ?
are they rabanim mumchim?
every one got to know their place

ALFRED E Newman
April 23, 2015 8:35 pm

What next, driverless cars for Shabbos that work by sunlight not motor, moneyless money,
Have we all lost the plot what shabbos is all about?

do what u do best= SHLICHUS
April 23, 2015 8:30 pm

I dont tell you how to run your chabad house (bc im not a mumche in that) dont weigh in to a convo you have no idea about.

And the rebbe said NOT TO USE AN ERUV
April 23, 2015 8:25 pm

same exact thing. Children see you just turning on and off light whenever you wNt…

לא כשר
April 23, 2015 8:15 pm

עובדין דחול זה כמו לעלות על רכבת חינם בשבת שהמשקל שלך לא משנה אבל זה חילול שבת בפרהסיה המתג זה אותו דבר

Plain old Gerama
April 23, 2015 8:02 pm

It is Osur M’Derabanan

switch
April 23, 2015 8:02 pm

Now if we could only get the rabbis to enforce one day yom tov for those not in Israel……..that would be a GREAT boon

don't understand
April 23, 2015 8:00 pm

by you turning on the switch aren’t you being “gorem a melacha to be done?look at it this way if you would not have turned on the switch would the light be on??

Shluchim are not Rabbonim
April 23, 2015 7:57 pm

With all due respect to these talented shluchim, they are not Rabbonim and their response should be “I cannot comment and I will defer to the ruling of noted Charedi Poskim”

The Rebbe’s view is clear: Halachic matters belong only to Rabbonim.

The danger in their comments is that Shluchim are seen by the “masses” to be Rabbonim and their views will be taken as Halacha.

to rabbi in new zealand
April 23, 2015 7:52 pm

Opening a fridge shabbas also guaranties the motor will go on but are matir it. Its a grama and more research must be done. So far only the litvishe rabbonim and belski have written letters against it. Though reb kamineztsky signature is alsobthere but he is over 90 and I am sure they just copied and pasted his name. Belski also was against the eruv in bp because he said it will destroy shabbas but it didnt and all the chasidim carry and use it. Reb dovid feinsteins also signed was against an eruv and is generaly against technology so… Read more »

Rabbi Kopel's logic is flawed
April 23, 2015 7:48 pm

The example he gave is “walking on grass,” which requires two preconditions 1) no intent to tear out grass AND 2) no guarantee that walking will cause grass to 100% tear. The kosher switch isn’t paralled to prohibition against “tearing grass.” The kosher switch is parallel to turning on light, there are no preconditions for that. It either is or isn’t a “Melacha.” The former is forbidden and latter permitted. The kosher switch circumvents the melacha.

Rabbi D. Schochet from Toronto
April 23, 2015 7:44 pm

Rabbi Schochet from Toronto is a Mumche in Halocho. He Clearly said it is no good this Shabbos in his speech call him to verify

In halacha
April 23, 2015 7:41 pm

In halacha its called “chilel Shabbos bifarhesyah”

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