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Wednesday, 23 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 26, 2019

    ‘Rebbe Was Against Ultrasound’

    With a new medical statement being released, Mazkir Rabbi Leibel Groner states: "The Rebbe was totally opposed to ultrasound." Full Story

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    sonograms
    Guest
    sonograms

    Sometimes it is medically necessary. The Rebbe told me “kiatzas rofim yedidim”.

    mother
    Guest
    mother

    when i was pregnant 27 years ago , the doctor recommended routine sonograms for a certain condition. we asked the rebbe. his answer was, ” do it only if there is a specific need but not routine” . this holds true today as well.

    ksav yad
    Guest
    ksav yad

    As far as my research has shown I have been unable to find anything written from the Rebbe on this topic. If Rabbi Groner could publicize the written answer he has I think it would be very helpful for many people.

    Sruly
    Guest
    Sruly

    My wife’s pregnancy was saved cause of the 5 month intense ultrasound etc…… Don’t want to go into all the details. It’s a very troubling conversation, and people are at major risk. Doctors and Rabonim need to be the ones to publish this article not jornakists.

    Doctors pressure
    Guest
    Doctors pressure

    I know ultrasounds are not necessary and wrong , however it’s very hard to go against a medical professional who claims you’re being irresponsible and that you’re the only one in the neighborhood not doing it. We have to all stand up for what’s right. I’m a mother who listens to doctors and follows what they say but these routine exams have gotten out of hand. My friend has a doctor who never examines her, he gets all his info from the sonogram.

    The Rebbes answer to me - NO to sonogram
    Guest
    The Rebbes answer to me - NO to sonogram

    I know for a fact that the Rebbe was NOT happy at all with Sonograms . When our daughter was born some 27 years ago the Doctor wanted to take a sonogram. He thought she was having twins and felt that it would be safer to know ahead of time. being a known fact then (even to doctors) that the the Rebbe was against it , I told the the doctor that I want to ask the Rebbe first. the Rebbe’s answer was not to take one. and B”H a Beautiful girl was born (1)

    Problem is...
    Guest
    Problem is...

    sometimes you don’t know something is wrong until you do the ultrasound, after which you can take appropriate action. That was the case for me. Without the ultrasound there could have been serious complications.

    our Dr. tried to scare us into doing an ultrasound
    Guest
    our Dr. tried to scare us into doing an ultrasound

    The Rebbe clearly told us not to do one.
    Of course each case is diff. & when its mediaclly neccesary the Rebbe always said to ask a Dr. thats a “Rofeh Yedid”
    The Rebbe was against routine ultrasounds!

    There are many letters that the Rebbe writes against routine ultrasounds
    Guest
    There are many letters that the Rebbe writes against routine ultrasounds

    Of course , if there is a problem, or a need for one, The Rebbe was for it, with caution

    Be smart
    Guest
    Be smart

    The problem is doctors today are trained to rely on technology. Make sure you talk to a tab and competent Dr. Before making a blanket objection. But that doesn’t mean you need one in every visit

    Had one ultrasound
    Guest
    Had one ultrasound

    in the 80s with the Rebbe’s aqpproval.

    In any medical procedure you have  benifits and risks
    Guest
    In any medical procedure you have benifits and risks

    I believe that it’s maybe overuse of ultrasound during the pregnancy , but you must do at least Few major ones to determine any fetus ( baby) health problems /physical abnormalities ….. or as prescribe by the doctor .

    Nowadays the doctor can safe the unborn baby life still being inside the mother !!!

    Discuss any medical concerns with the doctor only , few doctors and do the best for your and your baby health

    letters from the Rebbe
    Guest
    letters from the Rebbe

    there r many letters from the Rebbe against ultrasound (for routine , or unexplained reasons from doctors) . I myself have 2 that i can share.

    Pro/anti
    Guest
    Pro/anti

    I think generally the frum population can be divided into two groups;people who prefer conventional medicine will be more apt to getting an ultra sound done as opposed to homeopathy users, who will be opposed.

    HOME BIRTHS
    Guest
    HOME BIRTHS

    What about home births? They are also a Sakana gedola to the fetus??
    People rush into home births which is 100 times more endangering than an ultrasound.
    What was the Rebbe’s view on this?

    The Rebbe gave me Reshus to Have an Ultrasound due to a serious Medical Issue
    Guest
    The Rebbe gave me Reshus to Have an Ultrasound due to a serious Medical Issue

    but yes, the Rebbe, ZY’A was against ultrasound as a regular, routine procedure.

    Bas Raizel Mirel

    Each case is different
    Guest
    Each case is different

    My doctor wanted to take an ultrasound just to determine the delivery date of the baby. Knowing the Rebbe’s standpoint on this issue I refused to take a sonogram. The doctor had me sign a statement that I refused a sonogram.
    Being concerned I wrote to the Rebbe and got aברכה
    אזכיר על הציון וה יצליחה
    BH everything was fine and on my monthly visits to the dr., whose office was on Linden Blvd., the Rebbe’s car was either coming or going to the Ohel and passed the dr. office.
    It just added to the ברכה I received.

    Chabad MD
    Guest
    Chabad MD

    Rabbi Groners words are very dangerous. Having excessive ultrasounds might not be appropriate but not having any ultrasounds during pregnancy is reckless. There are several conditions that can put the health of the mother and baby at risk that are picked up by doing a ultrasound. One example is placenta previa – where the placental blocks the uterus. Attempting a pregnancy in such a condition without having done an US prior could lead to a massive hemorrhage and blood loss putting both the baby and mother lives at risk. It’s very easily diagnosed by Ultrasound. Another example is a chord… Read more »

    a Zaideh
    Guest
    a Zaideh

    in 1978, when my wife who had turned pregnant for the first time,the doctor wanted to do a sonogram in order to determine an accurate due date.
    i asked the Rebbe and the Rebbe answered:
    follow the advice of a Rofeh Yedid, after verifying whether there is any “nafka-mina” .

    Doctor says
    Guest
    Doctor says

    Doctor Rosen is a rofeh yedid and he insisted that my daughter get a routine sonogram, claiming that it’s a must.

    WOW!!
    Guest
    WOW!!

    I don’t recall any sonograms during all my pregnancies except one time – when 2 doctors both thought I was having twins (they were wrong!!!) However….. my daughters are both high risk. If DD#1 had not had a sonogram they would not have known the baby had a certain condition, which was treated immediately after birth. The baby is is still under treatment after 18 months. The other one AND BABY nearly died because she wouldn’t have a sono that would have shown there was a problem (didn’t matter what I thought, mother’s instinct) & as a result of all… Read more »

    This is an issue of Pikuach Nefesh Mamash!!!
    Guest
    This is an issue of Pikuach Nefesh Mamash!!!

    You are treading on very dangerous ground when making such blanket and sweeping statements about an issue that can be Pikuach Nefesh Mamash. There are reputable Chabad Rabbonim who have said and have published in their names that having at least one ultrasound during pregnancy is medically necessary (see Sefer Chosen Yeshuos, by Rabbi Dov Tvardovitch, as one example). Personally, when my parents were presented with a scenario of the doctor wanting to perform an ultrasound or inducing labour early, Rabbi Groner told my parents to have an ultrasound, as it was the less invasive of the two options. Each… Read more »

    my understanding
    Guest
    my understanding

    It was my understanding that the Rebbe was against routine ultrasounds, but not against ultrasound where there was reason to suspect a problem that could be fixed if known in time.

    Personally
    Guest
    Personally

    Each pregnancy I tell the doctor that I want to follow what the Rebbe said and not have the routine ultra sounds unless there is a specific reason they feel it is necessary for me. These are doctors in Australia who dont know who the Rebbe is and they have never had a problem with that and have never pressured me at all to have a routine ultra sound. When there was a reason they felt it was necessary and they recommended it for a specific reason then I would have one. BH I only needed ultrasounds for my first… Read more »

    My experience
    Guest
    My experience

    We have spoken to Rabbi Groner and we were told the Rebbe was against routine ultrasound. Ultrasound is just one tool in a good obgyn’s toolbox. I have seen one “doctor” authorize a d&c based on one sonogram. D&c basically is an abortion. The doctor lazily in my opinion decided that baby wasn’t living based on one tool. My last doctor used a sonograms on every visit and even a 3d sonogram at the end. It’s very interesting that at the new high risk hospital I am at much less sonograms are done. One was done early when they had… Read more »

    Mind over Matter
    Guest
    Mind over Matter

    Rebbes letters on ultrasound can be found in the book, Mind over Matter.

    Times Change
    Guest
    Times Change

    Whether or not the Rebbe was against sonograms 30 years ago how can that be an everlasting thing? Technology is ever changing and the Rebbe is not around to make an updated takana. What will you say in another 50 years? If someone was against a particular medical procedure 80 years ago does that mean they’d be against it now, with different technology, equipment, knowledge etc?

    Don't shot the messenger!
    Guest
    Don't shot the messenger!

    If you have a problem with the Rebbe’s opinion on Ultrasounds, have the guts to say that, don’t criticize Rabbi Groner.

    Times have changed
    Guest
    Times have changed

    Back in the days, 25 yrs ago we were told not to have a sono unless the doctors thought there might be a problem. Today it is very required to have a sono. My doctor wanted me to have one when I was in my second month, but I told her I would like to hold off until the 5 or 6 month. That’s when the baby is developed enough to see that all is working well. Rabbi Farkash who back in the days suggested that I not have a sono, strongly required that I have one in 2012. He… Read more »

    Concerned
    Guest
    Concerned

    I’m concerned that the rabbi groner may be misrepresenting the rebbes advice. Doctors feel it’s necessary to do a single untrasound because even the greatest doctors have a better handle on what’s going on when they perform a single one. And if they find a danger, they can make the necessary intervention. Especially today when doctors aren’t skilled in manual diagnosis because they became so dependent on technology (kind of like our spelling today is worse because we began to depend on spellcheck. Misspell a word is no big deal, but missing an opportunity to diagnose can lead to death).… Read more »

    our generation is very weak and technology helps us to survive
    Guest
    our generation is very weak and technology helps us to survive

    Believe that If ultrasound ( any other technology ) is exist – HaShem gave it as a gift to us to benefit from it …… Doctor want the best for the mother and the unborn baby – to be healthy ….we are the weak generation , HaShem gave us doctors , medical equipment , medical lab , blood tests , medicine , ultrasound etc that are improving every year , today we have nano technology that makes everything more easily – to have more healthy and prolonged life ….. You can’t generalize Rebbes words and make such as statement …..… Read more »

    Sholoim uVrochoh.
    Guest
    Sholoim uVrochoh.

    The Rebbe would not disregard the safety of fetuses and advise parents against even a non-essential procedure which could be instrumental in catching problems during a pregnancy. My Rebbe, Our Rebbe, would do no such a thing. Even if it was insufficiently tested, it was in general use, little immediate damage was detected, and the benefits were numerous and obvious! Given the information and testimonies available of the Rebbe’s addressing over an extended period of time the use of ultrasounds, it is APPARENT that the reasoning for the Rebbe advising against it across the board in any cases where there… Read more »

    The Messenger
    Guest
    The Messenger

    Indeed Rabbi Groner is the messenger. However, he is making statements from memory in a matter that can be vital to health, as many commenters have written. I suggest that the editor of COL asks Rabbi Groner for the written directive from the Rebbe on this issue (“I have it in handwriting from the Rebbe”) and publicize it to the public. This way we will see if the the Rebbe gave a blanket rejection for ultrasound (“The Rebbe was totally opposed to ultrasounds,”), or a more nuanced directive (“do not rush into ultrasound”). This should clarify the matter. Its actually… Read more »

    who says?
    Guest
    who says?

    To post 32:
    Where does it say and why is it that women don’t peek at their baby?
    Never heard of this…

    to # 18
    Guest
    to # 18

    As a nurse I totally agree with you.People just don’t get it or don’t have the knowledge.For those who choose to make decisions based on non-medical advisors,I am fearful.

    MRS PERL ARBOR
    Guest
    MRS PERL ARBOR

    I HAVE THE BOOK MIND OVER MATTER IN FRONT OF ME AND NOWHERE DOES THE REBBE ADDRESS THIS ISSUE. HOWEVER WHAT THE REBBE DOES STATE IS AS FOLLOWS……….”REGARDING ANY MEDICAL ISSUES (MAY NONE OF OUR BRETHREN EVER NEED IT),THERE IS A CLEAR HALACHIC RULING ENJONING THE PATIENT TO GO TO A DOCTOR AND BEHAVE AS THE DOCTOR INSTRUCTS.

    The Rebbe was totally opposed to...
    Guest
    The Rebbe was totally opposed to...

    ROUTINE ultrasound. Many individuals got individual answers to listen to the doctor and take an ultrasound under certain individual circumstances.

    The Rebbe was also against...
    Guest
    The Rebbe was also against...

    …inducing labor for convenience of mom or doctor. But NOT if there was a genuine medical concern!

    OPEN THE BOOKS
    Guest
    OPEN THE BOOKS

    Don’t rely on hearsay, LEARN LEARN LEARN

    lifelight 2
    Guest
    lifelight 2

    Consider the incredible rise in ADD, ADHD and AUTISM, which we parents and teachers have to deal with at an UNPRECEDENTED and INCREASING RATE in the past 20 years. The Rebbe was NEVER wrong!!!!!

    Re Chabad MD's post (#18)
    Guest
    Re Chabad MD's post (#18)

    He writes: “One example is placenta previa – where the placental blocks the uterus. Attempting a pregnancy in such a condition without having done an US prior could lead to a massive hemorrhage and blood loss putting both the baby and mother lives at risk. It’s very easily diagnosed by Ultrasound” According to Wikipedia, placenta praevia has a history of risk factors, and it often manifests symptoms. A physical examination can indicate the possiblity of the condition. At that point, ultrasound is (not a routine thing, but rather it is) recommended to confirm the condition. ” Another example is a… Read more »

    The Rebbe
    Guest
    The Rebbe

    the Rebbe was NOT TOTALLY against ultrasounds. THE REBBE TOLD MY MOTHER BFAIRUSH TO HAVE ONE.

    It is always wise to ASK A RAV WHO IS AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA.

    I was told by two rabbanim that i should go for ultrasounds.

    RE: ULTRA SOUND
    Guest
    RE: ULTRA SOUND

    Some friends and I were pregnant around the time the Rebbe came out strongly against ultra sound. My friend’s parents were in yechidus soon after and the Rebbe said… now the medical field claims that ultra sounds are safe, but there will come a time when medicine will acknowledge the dangers. (Not the exact lashon). Around 20 years ago, I read a study claiming that many more children are born deaf than ever and it was being attributed to the ultra sound rays being directed at the fetus during pregnancy. The Rebbe said clearly that ultra sound should not be… Read more »

    Chabad ultrasound technician
    Guest
    Chabad ultrasound technician

    Please do not generalize and be very careful doing so. There’s a difference between doing random ultrasounds and doing one or two during a pregnancy. From my professional experience, I know of a lot of children who would not be alive today had they not been diagnosed via ultrasound prior to delivery. Ask your Rov and make sure you get a sonogram done by a competent doctor or technician to avoid worthless worry.
    Behatslacha!

    practical situation
    Guest
    practical situation

    in practice if the women is pregnant, worried and axious and want to check the baby via ultra sound to calm her down there is nothing in the world that will stop her from doing that.

    But, now 30 years later....
    Guest
    But, now 30 years later....

    Now, medical experts r saying that sonograms are dangerous.
    The Rebbe said this 30 years ago,.
    We listened to the Rebbe then. (of course, if its a special case, the Rebbe allowed it)
    I’m sure, much more will be discovered about the risks to the unborn fetus. (again, i’m talking about doing routine unnecessary ultra sounds)

    #45
    Guest
    #45

    That was said in the form of the opposite of a Brochoh.

    A Brochoh in the positive form would have said:
    In-practice may women who are pregnant be calmed down and free of anxiety and worry, and may they be strengthened so they not seek out unnecessary fixes for their natural feelings from unrelated routes.

    The Rebbe knew
    Guest
    The Rebbe knew

    35 years ago what doctors, &medical experts first discovering now . Im sure more will be discovered about things these ultrasounds cause, do we know the long term effects that these ultrasounds can have. why do so many problems
    exist now that didnt exist 30-35 years ago. ???
    Do we know if these problems (infertilty which is much more rampant now,Autism, adhd, ADD, etc. etc.) were caused by the fetus being exposed to the dangers of ultrasounds?? we dont know, the Rebbe knew

    shabsi chicago
    Guest
    shabsi chicago

    בסס’ד
    you can buy a garment “off the shelf”, and wear it at once. or you can go to a custom tailor who makes the garment to fit your measurements.
    The Rebbe was, is, a custom tailor, tailoring each answer to each specific person and situation. what is good foe Shimon may not be good for Ruevan.
    Many years ago, The Rebbe told me something, not medical. upon relating this, some “chochameim” said impossible. The Rebbe always says ________.
    if we knew what The Rebbe always said, why bother asking?
    allas, what do we do today? Bade for Moshiach and P’chias haMaisim!

    to # 27
    Guest
    to # 27

    Technology is changing & NOW SAYING WHAT THE ReBE Sid 30 years ago, exactly the opposite of what ur saying.

    WHY?
    Guest
    WHY?

    why r we arguing & why do we want to do something “that is a potential danger for the unborn fetus” unless of course it is of medical emergency??

    Don't Shoot the Messenger
    Guest
    Don't Shoot the Messenger

    When anyone one here has learned as much Torah as Rabbi Groner and has served as the Rebbe’s secretary like Rabbi Groner, then you can comment against him. Anyone else against what he has said needs to realize you are undercutting a very fundamental part of being Chabad. Being Chabad means connection to the Rebbe, the Rebbe named his shluchim. If and when an Ultrasound is requested from the doctor, the parents must speak to their mashpiah/Rav and follow his advice based on what the practioner said. Rabbi Groner is not saying anything dangerous, asking Lubavitchers to function in a… Read more »

    I read
    Guest
    I read

    a survey done in England that linked infertility to ultrasounds,
    who knows what else they’ll find out! why take a chance if its just for a routine u S

    See #18 and #32
    Guest
    See #18 and #32

    The point that must be clarified and on which there have been many opposite posts here, is whether the Rebbe was against even a one-first basic Ultrasound per pregnancy. To #18 I just want to say that we all must check what is the Rebbe’s position on the matter, because as long as the Ultrasound works the same way (and as far as I understand today it is even more intense) the the Rebbe’s opinion in the matter is ALL THAT COUNTS, obviously one must consult Doctors, but everyone has a general position on treatments that are questionable, and our… Read more »

    To # 31
    Guest
    To # 31

    Ultrasounds are NOT IMPROVING, ACCORDING TO THE RESEARCH THEY ARE CAUSING MORE HARM! The new technology is not always better (yes, it is helping a lot )
    When the Rebbe said something 30 years ago not everyone listened. Now, that medical research is saying it, people are waking up. “Most ultrasound operators pay little or NO attention to the safety moniters ” published source say.

    to #15 regaurding  Homebirth
    Guest
    to #15 regaurding Homebirth

    there is a clear letter form the Rebbe answering a prominent Lubavich Rav in Israel asking the Rebbe to “asser” home-birth years ago in Israel as it was a growing trend. the Rebbe clearly said he can’t do that it is not his place to do so. it is the rightful decision is the mother (parents) when doing so with a trained home-birth midwife…I have a copy of the letter here at home…

    to 56
    Guest
    to 56

    please share and publicize this letter

    agree with #44
    Guest
    agree with #44

    There are two, in my opinion, crucial ultrasounds. The one done at 11 weeks called Nuchal translucency. This checks for Downs syndrome, trisomy 18, etc. At this point parents will be informed and can make a decision to continue the pregnancy or not, and if they continue can prepare themselves better emotionally and physically for caring for an infant with such a condition. The other ultrasound done at 5 months, looks at all development and internal organs, limbs, etc and can detect if there is any issue. For example, a friend of mine had a baby with a heart condition… Read more »

    Why you got it all wrong
    Guest
    Why you got it all wrong

    There are a few points that need to be clarified. Number 1) All the studies that prove it’s safety in all aspects we’re done prier to 1992 when the ultrasound was only emitting 94 milliwatts per sc and then that same year the FDA raised the allowence to 720 milliwatts per sc and no Majer studies were done since. 2) The main concern that is pointed out from from all majer research is the possibility for it to raise the temperature in the fetus tissue (which is only applicable to the 720 milliwatts psc and not to the prier limit… Read more »

    #58
    Guest
    #58

    To continue the pregnancy or not???? That is never Daas Torah!

    re post # 58
    Guest
    re post # 58

    The poster writes that an ultrasound is crucial in order to check for Downes sydnrome etc. The reasons for checking are to decide whether to continue the pregnancy; and if yes, then knowing beforehand helps to prepare the parents emotionally. But is it right to abort? And who says that knowing beforehand would benefit the emotions; it could be just the opposite. (And sometimes the test gives a false result.) The poster writes further that an ultrasound is crucial in order to detect heart conditions. But the Mayo Clinic writes that tests and diagnosis for congenital heart defects include a… Read more »

    so true # 61
    Guest
    so true # 61

    knowing something is wrong would only bring endless worry,
    & nightmares. Hashem prepares the Refua b4 the Maka.
    a good Dr. does not need ultrasounds under normal situations. A good Dr. can detect abnormalities & only then resort to further tests.

    to 61 - emotions ? To 62 - stethoscope is a tool of a good doctor ?
    Guest
    to 61 - emotions ? To 62 - stethoscope is a tool of a good doctor ?

    You know that only few ( literally 2 ) hospitals in NYC & boroughs Area have an equipment to safe the newbiorn life with Congenital Heart Defects….. Means the newborn will be separated ( if diagnosed right after delivery ) from his mom and transferred to the right hospital . Do you know that some congenial heart defects do not have any murmurs at all ? Do you know that some congenial heart defect have 0 ( zero )% oxygen supply to the newborn after the umbilical cord is cut while during the delivery the Heart rate was correct and… Read more »

    Heipech Shulchan Aruch
    Guest
    Heipech Shulchan Aruch

    The Rebbe said COUNTLESS times that when someone says something in his name, even a mazkir, we shouldn’t believe it without a k’sav yad kodesh. Moreover, the Rebbe said that we should NEVER believe anything said in his name that goes against Shulchan Aruch. The halacha is that we must do what the doctors advise. The Rebbe stressed that in COUNTLESS letters. Yes, the Rebbe raised concern about needless ultrasounds when pre-natal surgery didn’t yet exist, so the ultrasound couldn’t do anything but cause needless worry. Today, we must ask a rav more hora’a, as the Rebbe ALWAYS directed in… Read more »

    to #63
    Guest
    to #63

    In the light of the article (which the col brought) about the potential risk of ultrasound, and in the light of research (Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2010 Aug 4;(8):CD001450. doi: 10.1002/14651858.CD001450.pub3) indicating that: “Existing evidence does not provide conclusive evidence that the use of routine umbilical artery Doppler ultrasound, or combination of umbilical and uterine artery Doppler ultrasound in low-risk or unselected populations benefits either mother or baby;” and in the light of Rabbi Groner saying that the Rebbe felt that ultrasound was dangerous, is it right to subject all pregnant women to the risks of routine ultrasound, in order… Read more »

    Commonsense needed
    Guest
    Commonsense needed

    X-rays were assumed safe back in the day, and only several years later it was discovered that people were rendered irredeemably sterile because of them. I think there is a lot of intrusive ‘over testing,’ in all areas of medicine nowadays. True, these tests may ultimately have saved or benefited lives, but on the downside they have also caused a lot of horrendous and unnecessary anguish, and ineffective, painful treatments that could be worse than the disease. One has to weigh up what is absolutely crucial to know, even if slightly dangerous, and what is just routine and to tick… Read more »

    so true # 66
    Guest
    so true # 66

    Bottom line, exactly what the Rebbe & rabbi Groner r saying!

    X