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Sunday, 21 Tishri, 5780
  |  October 20, 2019

Rabbis Protest “False Menorah”

Crown Heights Rabbi Levi Garelik joined his father Rabbi Gershon Mendel Garelik to protest the "false Menorah" as depict in the Arch of Titus in Rome. Full Story, Video

‘Rebbe’s Menorah’ in Jerusalem

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tzivos hashem olive oil press
Guest
tzivos hashem olive oil press

the tzivos hashem olive oil press background has a picture of the menorah from the arch of titus, how ironic!

Misleading Headline
Guest
Misleading Headline

The Ibn Ezra on Chumash holds the Menorah was round (unlike Rashi on the Posuk, as well as the Rambam). In any case, the Menorah on the arch is not neccesarily the one in the Beis Hamikdash – it may have been one used for other purposes, although the question would be as to why it had seven branches, as we do not make Menorahs with seven branches (including Leichter).

about time
Guest
about time

It’s about time we stop following the Goyim’s idea of how the Menorah was shaped and also how the Luchos Habris were shaped. We have our Mekoros and I don’t see why a carving on an arch or a statue made by a goy should be used as a blue print for us. In that vain let me mention that we have our “Chanuka Gelt” and the Goyim have gift giving for their holidays and we should not mix the two.

Excellent!
Guest
Excellent!

Rabbi Yossi Jacobson’s yeshiva.net and Rabbi Garelik’s weekly shiurim are the best kept secret in Lubavitch.
I actually belong to Rabbi Garelik’s virtual community and get the sichos weekly from sichosonline.org and it’s great.

Vatican
Guest
Vatican

I know it may be a long shot but why don’t Rabbi Garelik ask the Vatican to see if there are kailim from the 2nd Temple. I read in a Gemoro somewhere where a Rabbi saw the remenats of King Solomon’s throne. Its worth a try

The ibn Ezra does NOT hold the branches were curved
Guest
The ibn Ezra does NOT hold the branches were curved

This is rank amhoratzus. He says they were round in cross-section, and also that they were arranged in a half-circle rather than in a plane, but he says nothing at all about whether they were straight or curved. There is plenty of archaeological evidence that the branches were indeed curved, though in an ellipse rather than a half-circle; but the first *written* source claiming they were curved is from R Yosef Shalit Richietti, who was an acharon. The Rebbe seems to have been unaware of the archaeological evidence, and to have thought the only source was the Titus arch; he… Read more »

#3, How about at least half a dozen drawings by yidden
Guest
#3, How about at least half a dozen drawings by yidden

Including by ones who had actually seen the menorah themselves, which the Rambam never did.

Rashi's Menorah
Guest
Rashi's Menorah

Please refer to “Maaseh Choshev” as to the shape of the branches according to his understanding of Rashi. Early kisvei yad of Rashi (no actual kisvei yad exist of Rashi himself are known) which include diagrams, unlike the printed versions, show curved branches coming out at an angle from the central body in accordance with the Maaseh Choshev. Actual pictures and mosaics, consistently indicate curved arms. This also appears to be the view of the Ibn Ezra.

#5, why would the Vatican have anything?
Guest
#5, why would the Vatican have anything?

How would it have got anything from the beis hamikdosh? There is certainly no gemoro about anything being seen at the Vatican, because it didn’t exist at the time.

to # 6, and 7
Guest
to # 6, and 7

wow, so you are aware of something the rebbe wasnt….wow you must be reallllly special!!
i personally rather believe the Rebbe….

There are many depictions made by Jews from the time of the 2nd Beis Hamikdosh with round menoras
Guest
There are many depictions made by Jews from the time of the 2nd Beis Hamikdosh with round menoras

We find menoras in ancient oins and decorations in ancient synagouges, and in every case the menorah is round. Arch of Titus is not the only ancient depiction of the Menorah.

see

http://www.jewishgiftplace.com/Ancient-Menorahs.html

Anctientt Round menoras
Guest
Anctientt Round menoras

Just look it up on google. Or any archeology of ancient Israel book. There are many depictions of ancient menoras dating all the way to the times of the Chasmonoim. In every single case the monoras are round????

Re: Number six
Guest
Re: Number six

You sound like you know what you’re talking about but I for one do not understand what you’re talking about. Can you explain?

Although I admit that Chasidim can, and should, sometimes be close-minded when it comes to the Rebbe’s words I do not think we should make assumptions regarding what The Rebbe did or did not know.

To 6
Guest
To 6

What archeological evidence? Not simply of Menorahs, but of the one inside the Beis Hamikdash?

Round menorah
Guest
Round menorah

to 11 and 12. Yes, you’ll find a lot of evidence of round menorahs but that doesn’t say anything about the shape of the one and only menorah which was in the beis hamikdash. These depictions may have been artists’ variations of the beis hamikdash’s menorah.

"photostat" love it ;)
Guest
"photostat" love it ;)
to #9
Guest
to #9

When Rome made the transition from pagan G-ds to Christianity, also the Romans at that time might have stored them in vaults, the Vatican have declined to say if they do have the kailim, becaise if they do they fon’t want to give them back. I do appologise if I said it was a Gemoro actually it was quoted in Esther Rabbah 1:12 It was R’ Eleazar who saw the remains of King Solomon’s throne in Rome,

#15
Guest
#15

The point is the source of the round menorah is NOT from Arch of Titus. This is the way JEWS depicted it. The Rebbe’s main point seems to be that its a great shame Jews copy the Roman (non-Jewish) depiction and overlook the Rambam’s depiction. IOW the Rebbe maintains the source of the menorah as being round originates with the depiction on the Arch of Titus. The Rebbe maintains that that menorah was not the real one in the Heichal but rather one of the many candelabras that lit up the courtyard of the Beis Hamikdash. But it seems that… Read more »

Needless controversies.
Guest
Needless controversies.

I don’t understand why so many Lubavitchers feel a need to fight a war on anything not fitting with their shitas.
My wife works in a Hebrew school, and last week the Shluchim’s daughter saw a picture of a round menorah, and proudly exclaimed “round menorahs are posul”.
Okay, the Rebbe explained his shita, that we should hold by the rambam, but to “protest false menorahs”, or to ridicule people who use round menorahs for Chanukah is just divisive.
Akiva Hall

Wasn't there both
Guest
Wasn't there both

At the time of the Beis Hamikdash, weren’t there both types of Menorahs? Maybe Titus just chose the round one for whatever reason. From Wiki: Construction The menorah willow consisted of a base and a shaft with six branches, beaten out of solid gold. The six branches curved to the height of the central shaft so that all seven lamps at their apexes were in a straight line.[1] The Hebrew Bible, or Torah, states that God revealed the design for the menorah to Moses and describes the construction of the menorah as follows (Exodus 25:31-40): 31 And you must make… Read more »

Milan, Italy
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Milan, Italy

Thats our rabbi!!

Beverly Hills, USA
Guest
Beverly Hills, USA

one historian whose name i forgot has suggested that the round menorah as depicted on the arch with the sea-serpent images on its base was ordered by Herod who was known to be a Rome-phile and wanted to Romanize Judea and the Holy Temple….so the last few decades of the Holy Temple might have had a Menorah that had roman images on it an indication for this is that during the Hasmonean era, many coins were depicted with Menorah but in the time of the first and second Judea-Rome wars (69-70 and 115) coins struck by the holy Judean warriors… Read more »

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