By COLlive reporter
Rabbi Sholom Ber Shuchat has deemed the use of a new mobile app for taharas hamishpacha as impermissible and “may not be used.”
Rabbi Shuchat, a Chabad Rabbi and Dayan from Agudas Harabonim of the US and Canada, has written a letter against the new Tahor App which “is being heavily promoted on social media among the Orthodox crowd.”
The app was created by Zisa and Yitz Levin, who say that as newlyweds, they discovered that many couples are too embarrassed to ask questions regarding their niddah status, when it is required to present their undergarments to a Rabbi.
The Miami-based organization has created an app which allows women to “anonymously send pictures of their Bedikah cloths to their Rabbi with Tahor app’s Rabbinically approved technology.”
The designated Rabbis then provide an answer to the anonymous user, Levin says.
The team of Rabbis affiliated with the app are Rabbi K. Auman – Former President of the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA), Rabbi E. Davis – Senior Rabbi of Young Israel, Hollywood, Florida and Rabbi Fishel Jacobs, an American/Israeli Rabbi who specializes in Taharas Hamishpacha, who is the only Chabad Rabbi featured on the app.
Rabbi Shuchat, however, cites reasons of different kinds of lighting, cameras, cellphones, photos taken with/without flash, angles, screens for the Rabbis, and types of cloths, which make it impossible for a Rav to render a Psak via this method.
Rabbi Shuchat insists that due to these reasons, “It is impossible to determine if a cloth is Tahor or Tamei,” with the app.
“After discussing the matter with other Rabbonim Moreh Hora’ah both within Chabad and outside Chabad, it is my opinion that such app may not be used for determining the status of Bedika clothes, and any Psak obtained from said app is invalid until the Bedika cloth is shown to a Rav Moreh Hora’ah,” Rabbi Shuchat writes.
Rabbi Shuchat expressed the hope that the creators of this app and the Rabbis who supported it will immediately remove this app from the market.
He encourages them to “focus their energy to create and facilitate the fulfillment of Mitzvos, without jeopardizing the purity of the Jewish nation.”
Why those women that are embarrassed to show the bedika are not embarrassed to wear leggings and short skirts?like I saw hundreds of them in lag baomer parade
To everyone who said, “why can’t we train women to deal with these questions?” the answer is there already are women with such training. Rabbanit Chana Henkin runs a seminary that has a program where women are trained for two years just on hilchos niddah and then tested thoroughly. After that they’re called “yoatzot halacha” and women can come to them with questions. They each have Rabbis they turn to if they don’t know the answer. If someone wants to say that they don’t hold of the training these women received, fine, you can start your own such program. But… Read more »
on the electronic image you can stretch to much greater visibility then the natural eye.
The color issue can be solved and there should be a few images of the cloth stretched and non stretched.
What I am saying is that the software can be updated to comply with the halacha if the rov would want to invest the time.
You can’t just look at color charts. The cloth has to be stretched, proper lighting is needed and this can’t be ensured with the camera, etc. Rav Farkash stated clearly that he can’t believe that someone knowledgeable in the relevant halochos would consider this. The stretching of the cloth requirement alone shows you why.
“proposal to consider by all parties
Competent orthodox women should receive specialized training in understanding all halochos involved and determine if tahor עד אחד נאמן באיסורין אפילו אשה hereby the women approach women by this we can solve all the above comments raised and only when in question will the Rov be approached for clarity ”
great idea ! If you can trust a woman to teach taharas hamishpacha to kallas and to teach Halacha – don’t understand why this isn’t done!
Please ask the ROV if when taking the picture you have a Color Chart with every color number listed so the picture with the same lighting and exposure etc… at the same time can be verified by the Rov with the same color chart and color #. The App can be improved by providing a standard color chart that has all the colors and shades. This is the same as a color chart in a paint store.
you’ve got the answer.
It’s quite clear that a phone app cannot be trusted to take a true color picture. Yes, there are certain extremely hi-tech video cameras that can shoot an accurate picture (even then the lighting needs to be right). This is a michshol lrabbim on a very serious (kareis) issue, an issue that affects the home.
Rabbi Jacobs rightly walked away from it. This was endorsed by no posek, because no posek can. It would also be proper to mention the full first names of the two YI rabbis who started this.
That would actually solve this whole issue.
To all women who are considering using the Tahara app to determine their Tahara status: Please take to heart that we are dealing here with the process of begeting Neshomos, who, in their sensitivity, get affected by the very thoughts which run through the minds of the parents. Being the case, if there exists even the slightest doubt that there may be a factor inperiling this process, and perhaps even impairing it, wouldn’t you take all steps possible to prevent that?! Since there are Torah authorities out there who deal with these topics regularly and who have amassed a large… Read more »
live so far from a rav that anonymously dropping off something in a bag and getting a phone call is such a major bother that they absolutely must have this app, to the point of trashing the rav.
Every single camera has a completely different way of capturing colors
More than just contrast and white balance like they say to use in the app
Some have more red
Some have more blue
And some have more green
But at the same with all this advanced camera technology comes programs that can match all these different camera types and make them look real
So before you say phone cameras don’t take good pictures, to some research
And don’t bash the creators of an app trying to help people
Offer constructive criticism
Rabbi Shochat clearly prefers to have the real thing in person for some reason, but other poskim are not so particular, and enjoy also to look at pictures. Is Rabbi shochat afraid of competition? I don’t understand.
There’s no lack of dignity in dropping off a shailah anonymously (or having one’s husband do so – I’ve dropped off ones for my wife dozens of times). And every time we’ve heard back from the Rabbonim, they spoke to us in a most dignified fashion. The only one here in whose eyes “the dignity of a woman doesn’t matter to the CH Rabbonim” is you.
there are many ways to keep the woman’s dignity and privacy as far as possible sending the shaalos to the Rabbonim.we can keep the halacha and digniity at the same time. if we want to make confusion we always will find problems. maybe one day in the future people will say that sending pictures through the app is also not dignity and its breaking people’s privacy,so then they will find a New way to make things work better,but i agree that Rabbis can make a system to be more available for shaalos etc..as 41 mentioned how hard was to find… Read more »
if you’re going to say kill the app, then you don’t care about dignity of the women, and maybe that’s why you’re so concerned that your chidlren will see this article because the only real explanation is in your eyes is that the dignity of a women doesn’t matter to CH Rabbonim.
This is a relatively benign site, but remember that any child on COL is also a child on the big, bad, wide open web.
So, let’s keep things in perspective. Teach your children to know good from bad, use a filter, or whatever else you must do. But taking this off COL will not solve the problem which causes children to view inappropriate sites.
Once upon a time it took us two hours of walking to find a rav who could pasken. A few months later I had another question. I was NOT up to doing a two hour hike and not finding anyone – because the last time we found a rav, it was a miracle (someone we met pulled strings and got a busy rav to wait five minutes before running off). So the second time, I called the rav who I ask all my “don’t need to show” questions to (he lives in a different city), and you know what he… Read more »
why dont we ask other rabonim like R dovid finstine lets see what he says
To all the people complaining that children visit this site and this should not have been posted. I have two words for you, they shouldn’t. They shouldn’t be visiting this site. They shouldn’t be on the internet, definitely not unsupervised. Beside this is not degtading, nor it is something g that has to be hiddel, this is our holy Torah. You don’t like articles like this, don’t let your kids visit this site or use the internet or install a filter. Enough is enough stop blaming the world for your problems.
I’m surprised any orthodox rabbi was involved with this app without it being accepted by mainstream poskim. If the issue is that some women are embarrassed, let’s come up with a more discreet way for rabbi to get the cloths and paskin. Some ideas that have worked are husband taking it in a sealed envelope to Rov and then Rov can send a message to couple, or drop off in mailbox with phone number. Maybe there are even better ideas.
Point is everyone who has any clue about photography knows that colors can be altered depending on lighting etc
One of the benefits in having a Rav that you consistently bring your Shaalos to is that he is familiar with your circumstances and will pasken accordingly. Everyone who went through Yeshiva can open a Shulchan Aruch and read the halacha, but only a properly trained Rav can find which Halachic guidelines to apply to your specific situation. As a CH resident, I thank our Rabanim for the patient, dignified and genuine guidance they have provided me with in this mitzvah. I know that though bringing it to the Rav may cause an initial discomfort, please make the effort to… Read more »
What I find interesting is that a while back in the Crown Heights Eruv Controversy, Rabbi Shuchat was being touted as a savior and the attack against those who disagreed with the Eruv was a Lubavitcher Rov & Dayan said its Kosher etc. Many of the same individuals are now decrying Rabbi Shuchat and trying to paint him as some anti-feminist monster without taking into account that this is the same Lubavitch Rov & Dayan who wasnt afraid to say that the Eruv was kosher (albeit not to our standards but non the less kosher) this is how Torah works… Read more »
Stop telling us ” No” to everything. We’re looking to make our lives easier. Tx
Not appropriate to use the app!!! Not accurate! Not acceptable!Immodest to share here. Degrading to women
I agree. I’m 13 yrs old and I worship this website. Not the right place for this stuff
A great resource for the many modern orthodox ( chabad house couples) trying to keep taharas hamishpacha in remote locations who until now were not asking a rav anywa.
posting this article is a service to young teens on line they can ask questions and have a healthy discussion about Halacha and intimacy with their parents.
Wondering if all those sensitive and embarrassed woman only use female doctors.
How many Rabbis do you think even gave it a chance? Technology improves all of the time.
Make an app where everyone has an anonomous ID. When people drop their shaalos to the rov, they can get an answer through the anonmous app instead of the phone
Rabbi Shochet. Thank you for taking the time to download and try Tahor. I am a scientist who received both a Bachelors and Masters from MIT and did not take the creation of this app lightly. This app will actually give you extremely close color match by following the instructions. You MUST take the picture in sunlight (as specified by the instructions). Florecent light, no light, ect. will not give you accurate results (again as specified). After you take the picture, you are asked to make sure that the picture is indeed an exact color match and if not, to… Read more »
He also issued a PSAK against it! He said it is UNACCEPTABLE for ANY women to use it REGARDLESS of the circumstances as it is IMPOSSIBLE to get an ACCURATE picture.
The only thing being “trashed” here is the sensitivity towards women regarding this matter. Many women such as myself who have never felt comfortable showing Rabbonim my bedika cloths now have an app that can accommodate the needs of those who wouldn’t otherwise do this mitzva.
is right. If you want to keep mesorah then a rav must see it in daylight. We cannot use technology where our holy Mesorah forbids it, no matter how convenient.
The minute one plays games with this, the next step would be, G=d forbid, allowing intermarriages for love.
You don’t need to see the Rov in person. Simply put in sealed envelope with your info and drop off in their mailbox. Then wait for a call!
Any Lubavitch Rov who gave a heter for this should be put in cherem.
Is this really necessary to be on a website that children can view??
as usual people that have no idea what the halacha is bash rabonim for standing strong not to bend from the shulchan aruch with true yuras shamayim.
Agree 100%
This is the CAYifercation of Crown Heights. Basic, fundamental Halach thrown out the window. Rabbonim trashed. The only thing that matters are your “feelings”.
#9:
Your point is valid, but this is a major, legitimate issue. Remember the blue/gold dress thing from a couple years ago? This app makes no sense whatsoever.
To #10:
Halevai that this should be the limit of what kids read online… all these halachos are in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, translated and on every shelf in town.
And look at how many people can keep Pesach because of it.
It’s ALWAYS easier and safer to pasul something. It takes vision (and guts) to use technology in halachically appropriate ways to make it more accessible to the masses
I agree, was gonna say the same thing
you can’t lower Yiddishkeit for yourself, you have to lower yourself for Yiddishkeit
100% correct!!!!
Don’t people have any boundries?!
Dont people have any brains?
Such an article on a website that kids visit?????
How are parents supposed to answer kids questions agreed teaching such an article!!!?!
Questions about dignity on such an open forum?! This is dignity?!!
I agree with #8.
In This area it should be women who we turn to when we have questions on taharas hamishpacha.
I don’t understand why in such a sensitive area it is RABBIS we turn too. And not WOMEN !! who can easily be well versed in all the Halacha on this matter.
many many young girls and boys read this site and this is not the place to discuss this issue.
Why is it that every time someone tries to do a good thing for the public , with only the best intentions, they immediately get shot down. There is so much negativity! No wonder why noone ever wants to get involved in anything anymore.
And the Rabbis… always against anything and everything new. Time to get with the times.
Competent orthodox women should receive specialized training in understanding all halochos involved and determine if tahor עד אחד נאמן באיסורין אפילו אשה hereby the women approach women by this we can solve all the above comments raised and only when in question will the Rov be approached for clarity
I do not know this “technology” but I get professional photos done all the time for my business and they are done in special lighting rooms and still many many times we do not get the true color
BS”D Once brought a garment to a Rav and he touched it and the the color turned out to be a string, no shayla, try doing that with a pic
A woman’s dignity, indeed! I learned from my kallah teacher that anonymity and secrecy and covering up embarrassment and shame are NOT promoting a woman’s dignity. Just the opposite is true. Dignity is when she is a real person. DIgnity is when rabbonim don’t think about women like they are little children who need supervision. Dignity is when she goes to a rov and he actually listens to what he is saying. Dignity is when she isn’t forced to reveal her most deepest feelings and being so vulnerable everytime she needs to ask about something personal. Dignity is when a… Read more »
Every screen and camera in the world is calibrated differently, how can a photo accurately represent the nuances and shades of colors? It doesn’t seem kosher. I personally would never trust it for one of our most important and sacred mitzvos.
Business as usual!
Have you yourself used the app and tested it to make such a statement? Do you understand the technology behind it? I’m sure if the picture wasn’t clear they would not make a psak based on that picture.
Though I’m not a posek, but I disagree with R Shuchat because rabbonim can look at the photos and if it’s ambiguous instruct the shaalo asker to bring it to a Rov in person. However, some times it’s so obvious even via a picture that if kavod habrius can be doche shabbos, it should be enough to not look for chumros of why it should be ossur when other rabbonim feel it’s muttar. It’s not like the kosher switch which is just a convenience, this is woman’s dignity and a huge benefit for Shluchim and people that don’t have access… Read more »