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Friday, 19 Iyyar, 5779
  |  May 24, 2019

    “No One Tells Me How to Dress”

    Op-Ed: "I am a woman and women should not be oppressed – we are free to express ourselves through our way of dressing...I make my own choices." Full Story

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    Guest
    Thank you...

    I’m interested to see how people respond to this… The tsnius issue in Crown Heights is really out of hand and nobody knows what to do about it. Maybe bring more tsnius clothing into the stores?

    Personally, I agree with you...
    Guest
    Personally, I agree with you...

    But what’s going on in crown Heights right now in terms of tznius is an absolute disaster. And unfortunately most women who are dressing in the most inappropriate ways will agree with your first paragraph – “dont tell me how to be or what to do”. Whats interesting is many of them think they are also good parents. But how do they think their kids will be when they grow up? Will they care one iota about tznius, or any other mitzvos ? It’s tragic.

    well said
    Guest
    well said

    wonderfully written and well said.
    please heed this very special Mitzvah
    have mercy on the men and ladies in this community and the world.. you will make our Rebbe proud you will make Hashem proud …and at the rend you will be proud of yourself

    wow
    Guest
    wow

    wow very well written and point taken! positive informative & given a fresh perspective on tznuis–thank u!

    amazing
    Guest
    amazing

    honestly i’m so sick and tired and repulsed by these women who dress not tznius at all and those who are stretching the borderline of tznius and those that sell and claim to have “tznius clothing”!!! The ones who are suffering the most are the ones who are untznius… you think they are happy? the pressure to always concirf, ne in style and have money to constantly update upgrade be original and the best. … at what price is this coming to??? wake up and smell the cofee! it si you , your family, your kids and yes all of… Read more »

    Thank you from My little son
    Guest
    Thank you from My little son

    Well written – when I take my young son to the park I get full if this tension and feel I have to sheild his eyes . Not from the non Jews around but from our own . I feel all the woman who sacrificed a lot to get us here and left it in our hands – now what?

    very well written
    Guest
    very well written

    great article, we need more of this. gotta say i was a little worried when I saw the headline, but was pleasantly surprised when I read the article. kol hakavod.

    Wow!
    Guest
    Wow!

    You ARE a true Dugma Chaya!
    Chazak Veamatz!
    YOU are powerful!

    Just a regular Joe...
    Guest
    Just a regular Joe...

    From a man’s perspective, I live in Crown Heights, and I totally agree with this article. When I am in the grocery store and a woman is dressed inappropriately and not b’tznius it makes me very uncomfortable. We should have better standards. Thank you for listening.

    It's the symptoms there is definitely something underlying
    Guest
    It's the symptoms there is definitely something underlying

    These girls are crying out for true love craving acceptance unconditional from their parents that they’re not getting. I agree
    it’s a symtom of underlying anger they are not happy with themselves. They are not proud of themselves something underlying perhaps depression abandonment abuse

    agreed! to number 10
    Guest
    agreed! to number 10

    What is it these women are lacking at home that they need to attract attentino from strangers!?

    tznius
    Guest
    tznius

    I am a middle aged bobbi- dressing modestly is not a challenge for me. But,excusee ,and please don’t take offense.THIS article is the absolute lack of tznius.we,as from,chassidishe people speak in an aidelle loshon.this makes me embarrassed and I squirmed and actually found it hard to read. I never heard such talk,and I come from a long line of emesse chassidim.I dress like a tzniusdike Bobbi and mechaneches.but honestly,this is offensive and will definitely not help women who are challenged with this mitzvah.it is an assault on the ears and minds of ehrliche women and a turn off to a… Read more »

    Observer
    Guest
    Observer

    One problem facing girls and women today is that we often fail to choose from available fashions that which actually looks good on the individual rather than the hanger. This applies to style, color and fit. It is sad that the three way mirror has disappeared from stores. Clothes of all price ranges and in styles from very conservative to wildly funky can be either tznius or not. All depends on how they are worn. So many have failed to realize that shopping is an individual art not an adventure. When a person is in the “latest” from top of… Read more »

    response to # 12
    Guest
    response to # 12

    I read your comment carefully and fully understand where you are coming from! I too am a middle aged “bubby” and I too am in chinuch. What I don’t think you realize is that todays young people cannot relate to what you are trying to convey. I did not find the article distasteful and actually found it very much on target for the intelligent and thinking person. When it says “Chnoch L”anar al pi Darko” it really means that we need to explain things in a manner that they will comprehend. I’m sure that there will be many further comments… Read more »

    I agree with 14
    Guest
    I agree with 14

    Sometimes intelligent explanation breaking down the mechanics is food for thought. I also am a bubby and wasnt comfortable with it, but felt that explaining the mechanics was important. I also agree with 10…many girls that dress this way are sad and hurting….could be since they were not dealt with love in high school, they are letting it out…they need love and acceptance….someone needs to listen to them…they are hurting inside..

    I don't understand the article
    Guest
    I don't understand the article

    Would you please post some pictures so I can better understand what you are saying?!?

    sharing the article
    Guest
    sharing the article

    Dear Col, is it possible to make this article “sharable” on social media without the comments (getting permission to take out Crown Heights from it would be great).
    as usual, it has, and will attract much machlokes.
    Its a well written, good perspective, article, that would be nice to get out, but the entire Face book World, which personally includes many not yet frum people, doesn’t have to read the comments. IMHO

    To 12
    Guest
    To 12

    Lady wake up and smell the coffee lubavitch today is not what it is

    i fear for the young girls with uniforms
    Guest
    i fear for the young girls with uniforms

    My daughter is 13 feels very limited in her boxy uniform and I fear that this will turn her off. She has already expressed a need to change schools,(she does not have any social or learning issues) as she saw the added restrictions on her new uniform in school. I actually understand her, I did not have a limited uniform in my day, but if I did, it would have caused a negative affect. Girls have the need to express themselves. It could be with shoes, sweaters, hair. Schools, should not take it away from them!!! suppressing it will cause… Read more »

    Disagree with this statement
    Guest
    Disagree with this statement

    “A woman who feels fulfilled as a woman does not need to express her femininity through her clothing.”

    True femininity is with refined clothing and one should express their femininity through clothing too. The article is pretty good but because it is written in an unrefined language, this point was missed.

    Just sayin
    Guest
    Just sayin

    I think the first paragraph might be a paraphrase of a recent network television interview that was posted on VOSIZNEIAS. A reporter interviewed a few women on the street. The Jewish woman interviewed pretty much said what the author reported. The cameras panned out to show how this woman was dressed. I have been haunted by this video clip since viewing it, and I am happy that someone publicly responded. Aside from a good bit of her hair showing, she was “covered.” However her clothing was seductive. I think the author of this post pins the problem: why do women… Read more »

    just wondering
    Guest
    just wondering

    Where does self respect begin ? Whose teaches it ? A mother, a teacher, a friend, the media?

    wonderful thank you
    Guest
    wonderful thank you

    thanks for writing this. The problem is not with the CH stores, they most likely aren’t shopping here anyways. BTW I don’t either, I shop in discount stores in NYC, but I’m always tznius, there are ways to make it tznius

    Father of a 14 year old bas yechida
    Guest
    Father of a 14 year old bas yechida

    I found this article honest and straightforward and full of integrity. I have a daughter whose school in CH is careful to instill tznius in the girls and demand it of the parents. Unfortunately I have a very hard headed wife who continuously undermines my opinions in matters concerning dress and the use of mobile phones. She allows and buys my daughter floor length dresses which Rabbi Heller has prohibited because they were the length of choice of prostitutes even LONG AGO ! She is also permitted to wear leggings and ankle socks which partially expose erva. The amazing thing… Read more »

    with the old breed
    Guest
    with the old breed

    I am a chabad chosid who does not live in Crown Heights. I want to thank and Bless all of you for taking on this problem. Dressing like a Jew is one of the things that helped to jewish people become a Nation and took them out of gulus.

    to # 11
    Guest
    to # 11

    Because they have NO ONE there for them! since they don’t have pnimiyus they figure at least “we can express chitzoniyus and at least against pple wants we’ll get att”. it’s a shame that NO ONE is there for them when they have any problem in life, they take the “normal” way to get att.- from the outside. if only they’ll know how much Hashem the Rebbe IS HERE AND WANTS THEM! by building their hiskashrus and working on their pnimiyus there will be no need for this issue. but even that no one is there to guide them. if… Read more »

    רציונלים
    Guest
    רציונלים

    What does judging others based off your preconceptions on their appearances tell you?

    CRUELTY
    Guest
    CRUELTY

    Well, the title may sound extreme. But, that’s what untznius really is – “PROFESSIONAL SADISM.” Now, I’m not a woman, so maybe yes or no. But, for a man, this is torture of the mind! To say don’t look – I mean that’s absurd. You just can’t help seeing what’s right in front of you and peripherally, unless, CH”V, you are visually handicapped or are wearing welder’s goggles. True, when you do see it, look away. The problem is that once you get that glimpse, uh-oh!.. I mean, if we make an exception by allowing even ONE woman to go… Read more »

    fed up mom
    Guest
    fed up mom

    I am so sick of seeing women half dressed in ch, its like I dont know where to put my eyes. I am so sick of having to worry about the influences my young 10 yr old daughter is getting from HER OWN NEIGHBORS AND FRIENDS MOTHERS. This is so rediculous and out of control.

    A picture says a thousand words
    Guest
    A picture says a thousand words

    Update your article with some nice shots so we can better understand where your coming from

    Too true
    Guest
    Too true

    Beautiful article.
    Unfortunately, it’s very true. One of the reasons we moved our family out of CH is because we don’t want our children growing up wondering why they can’t dress the way so-and-so in their class dresses if she’s Lubavitch, too!

    No one will be able to "make" girls and women change
    Guest
    No one will be able to "make" girls and women change

    The way to combat the lack of modesty if you woould like to call it that, is not by writing op-ed articles or protesting on Kingston Ave. it all starts with education and showing kids the right way to dress out of love No one will be successful by forcing it down the throats of the women in addition, modesty standards also can be different based on different people’s views therefore there will never be any agreement at the end of the day Teach your children well and hope they will end up listening to you but using “Satmar tactics”… Read more »

    Unreasonable
    Guest
    Unreasonable

    It is unreasonable to post an article with so many words and no pictures please fix this ASAP!!!

    Shut up.
    Guest
    Shut up.

    Do you see anyone who has a nisyaon here with tznius posting?? NO. Because the real reason why ladies are sick and tired of being preached to is because the preachers are the NOT the ladies to look up to. I am a tznius lady. I DO NOT live in Crown Heights for a variety of reasons, but when in shiddichim my husband said to me, “I can explain out of Crown Heights why ladies arent tznius if we have a daughter, not if we live in”. That was 11 yrs ago! I have an idea. WHERE ARE THE RABBIS… Read more »

    Thank you for your article!!!
    Guest
    Thank you for your article!!!

    I’m a married man and I fear and avoid Kingston ave. why should I have to see woman dressed so provaticavly?! Bochurim struggle and get into immense depressions due to this terrible lack of tznius. IT HAS TO STOP!!!

    THM, Kashrus and Shabbos too
    Guest
    THM, Kashrus and Shabbos too

    “I am a woman and women should not be oppressed – we are free to express ourselves through our way of dressing…I make my own choices.” The very same argument could be put forth for THM: “I am a woman and women should not be oppressed – we are free to express ourselves through our timing of intimate relations…I make my own choices.” And Kashrus: “I am a woman and women should not be oppressed – we are free to express ourselves through our choice of what we eat…I make my own choices.” And Shabbos: “I am a woman and… Read more »

    Problems in Satmar too
    Guest
    Problems in Satmar too

    With the “Yuppies’ moving into chassidishe neighborhoods (Williamsbugh, Crown Heights, Boro Park), things are getting tough. A few months ago, I saw a sign in a Williamsburgh shul, basically urging the chevrei, who see the Yuppie dress style, to do the best they can to hang on to the standards of Yiddishkeit they were brought up with.”It’s a tough nisayon out there.”

    great article
    Guest
    great article

    i was just wondering…i usually try my best to be tznius but there is once in a while that im not 100 % so tznius. the thing is, when i do dress not so appropriately, it has nothing to do with my family not giving me enough love, BH i have a wonderful loving family. it also doesnt have to do with trying to attrcat others. its just that i find clothing that i really like and its too hard to not buy and wear it, like a skirt thats a bit too short….i dont understand why everyone thinks its… Read more »

    this is a really nice article.
    Guest
    this is a really nice article.

    powerful, well- written, to the point, and 100 % true. thank you for writing this. i dont think the language is unrefined at all. beautiful job.thank you.

    Back to the basics
    Guest
    Back to the basics

    unless you start teaching the basics, it wont matter how many times you say the halacha or right thing, it just wont catch in to the minds of the new generation. they need to start to learn, respect, honor , dignity and above all self reason. also just to blame them for not getting love at the home,is incorrect. they get love and caring at the home. its part dor shivee and also golus. we all need to go back to basics , leave the non stop technology draining your mind, get out exercise, throw a ball ,go for a… Read more »

    to#38
    Guest
    to#38

    I never understood that either. If that was really the case then all the non-Jews in the world are really unhappy and don’t have love in their life if we are going off their appearances.

    I don’t think that is the case. The case is people don’t understand something so they start making baseless assumptions.

    wow! amazing article! very well written!
    Guest
    wow! amazing article! very well written!

    Such a great point you made, and very well. I don’t think the writing is immodest at all! Very refined and cleearly written and makes a great point. Thanks for this, ill be sharing it.

    to 16
    Guest
    to 16

    yes the article is slightly unclear

    Citizen Berel
    Guest
    Citizen Berel

    Number 34 is correct. The problem is the men. Were men and bochurim to refuse to have anything to do with these gazlonim (and they are gazlonim because they rob my entire field of vision because I have to walk down the street with my eyes down) this would stop. It should absolutely be the first question asked of a shadchan, and a girl who does not adhere to halachic standards of dress should be treated as a mechalel shabbos beparhesia (as far as shiduchim) until she does teshuva. All that said, when the male attitude towards immodesty changes the… Read more »

    lack of leadership and lots of strife
    Guest
    lack of leadership and lots of strife

    End the strife you will see the improvement in tznios

    If you don't think the Ribono shel Olam is watching and..
    Guest
    If you don't think the Ribono shel Olam is watching and..

    weighing what is going on with the decline in the FRUM velt you are highly mistaken. From the looks of the decline of the western civilizations and the rise of a violent Islamic rule coming r’l, the hashgacha should not be lost on us. If we would rather conform to the prust velt of the B’nei Esav and all their pritzus and glamour and fashion, just look down the road (ie into the future) and you WILL be dressed tznius. You can have it either in a Geuladike way with Moshiach or you can all bring down a gezeira on… Read more »

      A MAN WRITES
    Guest
    A MAN WRITES

    BH
    BSD

    While certainly tznuis is an important issue, to make blanket disparaging comments of our sweet queens of Israel ruins what this article is trying to acheive

    Who are your LEADERS
    Guest
    Who are your LEADERS

    We are forgetting a basic principle here. Who do we listen to, the Torah or Madison Avenue advertisers, NY Times, etc.? The Torah obligates us to listen to our leaders (i.e. Rebbeim). Ask yourself this question:Would the Rebbe approve of this? As far as “role models,” come on, you’re not that stupid, you’re looking for a convenient excuse to commit wrongdoing! If you see your mashpia, friend, even a parent doing something you know is wrong, does that give you license to do the same? If a doctor (i have seen this) smokes, does then mean that smoking is good… Read more »

    To # 19
    Guest
    To # 19

    ” Boxy uniform?” uniforms for most schools are realistic and not oppressive at all, with a blouse and pleated plaid skirt. They even allow the girls to wear whichever color hair accessories, shoes and tights they want, which can’t be said for most schools. What do you expect of them? The uniform is very reasonable in my opinion.

    Superb Article
    Guest
    Superb Article

    Beautifully and truthfully written! Yasher Koach!! You have spoken words filled with fact and truth. Tznius brings ONLY blessing to EVERYONE!! Bottom line it is simply Ahavas Yisroel. Do you want YOUR husband or sons to view OTHER women!! To feel and think things they should not have to think or feel between our very own?? We cannot control what exists in the secular world, but we can be aware and control ourselves.
    Thank you for such a wonderful article. May it touch all our hearts and may we all continue to be works in progress for the better!

    Too much of anything no good
    Guest
    Too much of anything no good

    My father, A”H, was a big fan of history.”Too much tyranny brings liberty, too much liberty brings tyranny.” With the breakdown of basic moral principles worlwide, especially when governmments(like the USA!) shove it down our throats, then, indeed, CH”V, we are headed toward tyranny! Why do you think there is both, a radical Islamic uprising in the Arab world and a neo-nazi revival (ironically, not in Germany yet) in some European countries? On one of the Mike Savage shows, his sub told a story about his visiting an Imam at a Moslem school in France. The Imam said,”What does a… Read more »

    to #24
    Guest
    to #24

    It seems like you need some proffessional help- your daughter’s problem has nothing to do with herself, but rather your wife. It seems as if she feels there is a need to prove the world how ‘up to date’ she is, or perhaps it is underwater tension. As a psychologist myself, I have seen quite a few women who take everything that they feel they haven’t recieved in there childhood, and gave it to their daughters. Perhaps your wife feels she wasn’t allowed to keep up with her friends as a child because she wasn’t given the latest gadgets or… Read more »

    Sad person
    Guest
    Sad person

    It’s crazy the people in crownheights don’t Respect it any more and feel like they can dress Like the non Jewish people . And now in the summer Time when I walk with my kids they Don’t know If that Person is jewish or not because of the way she/he dresses And it just shows they don’t care that Hashem said I dress like a Jew What if the rebbe was in crownheights now will u dress the same way u are doing now? Now us the time when israel is having a major war and the rebbe said by… Read more »

    to #34
    Guest
    to #34

    re: “preach hygeine to the bochurim.”

    lol. yes, please.

    pleasant surprise erev shabbos
    Guest
    pleasant surprise erev shabbos

    I am one of the women who are disgusted with the prostkeit I see in our streets. It bothers me no end. But, today I was in for a very pleasant surprise. I was driving down Brooklyn Avenue and Lefferts when it seems like moms were picking up their children from eithr day care center or Bais Rivkah day camp. I was so pleased to see these moms looking great and dressed tznius! These are young attractive women with great figures dresses properly! So, I was thinking to myself, maybe there’s more of this then of the immodest dressing women… Read more »

    My reason for sometimes not being as tznius as I should...
    Guest
    My reason for sometimes not being as tznius as I should...

    I’m too tired to be! I find life in ch so unbelievable hard , no support , no time for a social life, schools making us ill, huge expenses , health issues and all the rest of it … I simply don’t have the energy to get dressed! So I run out with long skirts and a tichel whereas on days when I’m not so drained I put on a shaital makeup and wear dress clothes.so it’s nothing to do with no love as I have a wonderful husband and kids… In just too tired mentally and physically. That’s MY… Read more »

    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.
    Guest
    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.

    A number of years ago, I was standing on line at House of Glatt, picking up an order, when I couldn’t help but notice that the married woman in front of me was dressed no better than a shiksa in Times Square on a hot summer afternoon. Ever since then, I have been telling anyone willing to listen that al-pi Shulchan Aruch it is 100% assur for all married men and bochrim to walk down Kingston Ave. Unfortunately, most people who hear me out make a nod with their head, smile, and say, nu, what can you do. Sadly, the… Read more »

    thank you for posting!
    Guest
    thank you for posting!

    Thank you. what is so sad is that these people that think they can walk around undressed are so selfish all they care about is themself! I am a regular crown heights girl chassidish and normal and that is who I married and I am embarrassed for my husband to walk behind you. Are you trying to put your ideas and disgusting images in our husbands eyes so they will want to look for more. You are causing divorce and you care only about yourself and when I look at those type of women dont post on facebook that you… Read more »

    Tichels
    Guest
    Tichels

    My sister in laws show more hair, than what’s covered by the tichel. Granted, it’s within the confines of a house, but all us family members and these women’s husbands are forced to look at their erva. And we all stand by and are not allowed to say anything…. I think they simply don’t know what they r doing wrong….

    to 57
    Guest
    to 57

    my older son refuses to walk or drive on kingston for a couple years now. if he is in the car with us he asks us to use either albany or brooklyn,. he himself will only walk on those streets as well. how is this normal that a young bochur is restricted from walking around in his own neighborhood? shameful!

    Chinuch from school
    Guest
    Chinuch from school

    Disrespect for tznius also shows disrespect for Hashem. If these women show such disrespect for Hashem, who knows how many more mitzvos their kids will toss away as adults?
    If the parents don’t teach their kids, I think it’s up to the schools to give the best chinuch they can.

    unmarried older bt opinion
    Guest
    unmarried older bt opinion

    i think we should not put pressure on women in this. not in a public forum, anyway. it is too case by case. it does seem obvious that the other chassidic groups are at higher level in this area, but they also have other stabilizing elements to their culture (no brain-drain of sending out shluchim, and no influx of BTs into their community). women (and all people) need to feel good about themselves, and this tznius-talk comes off as very condescending to me, telling people they do not know how to dress. women’s dressing is more artistic inherently, and women… Read more »

    KINGSTON AVE IS A RUNWAY. LEGIT.
    Guest
    KINGSTON AVE IS A RUNWAY. LEGIT.

    Okay, face it people, Kingston Avenue is a runway. Before u go out of ur house u have to a) make sure u look good b) not care abt tznius c) walk ridiculously to attract ppl. This i what is seriously going on out there. And the saddest part is: no one can make any move to stop it. There has to be some method of stopping it.

    to#53
    Guest
    to#53

    Jewish women, be happy, but always bear in mind: Your appearance is responsible for others thousands of miles away. Look, some women are more comfortable covered up, and some are not.

    U go #34
    Guest
    U go #34

    Well said

    Thank you- to those who do dress tznius
    Guest
    Thank you- to those who do dress tznius

    I want to take this opportunity to thanks those who DO dress tznius! And for all those (women) who complain- next time u walk down the street, see how many girls and women u see dressing tznius. Focus on that! There are “2 crown heights” the question is which one do u want to live in?

    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 59
    Guest
    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 59

    You are surely correct, it is not normal that your son cannot walk around in his own neighborhood. However, the real shame is what’s causing your son to avoid Kingston Ave. Mainly, how can a community built on Torah, Shulchan Aruch, and Chasidus allow itself to be overrun by such pritzus! Any frum community worth its salt, would have years ago put an end to this madness. Unfortunately, due to a number of factors, primarily the numerous machlokesin at the top, Crown Heights has been utterly bereft of any strong Halachic posek with the power to enforce basic Halachic standards… Read more »

    who?
    Guest
    who?

    Is Cameron Russell? No joke,and how would you know what she did? Might make those feel like its ok to know these things.

    wow.
    Guest
    wow.

    Very well written. Great point!

    crown heights??
    Guest
    crown heights??

    Crown heights this, crown heights that. There are untznius women and girls in every jewish community. And , I dont think its right for any men or bachurim to preach about tznius in their comments. You are a man, and you dont understand the challenge of dressing tzniusly. What would you know about it? So please dont tell us what we’re doing wrong and how to fix it, thanks 🙂

    Agree with #32
    Guest
    Agree with #32

    It really bothers me how people think that by posting these long articles and everyone agreeing in the comments, that suddenly, the whole crown heights will be dressing the way you want. I’m sorry but that’s not going to happen. It’s a really big struggle for many women and girls who want to fit in and look stylish. And I know you will say that you could look good and be tznius at the same time but at the end of the day, not really. Really, the only way people will change is firstly, by having role models that dress… Read more »

    fed up
    Guest
    fed up

    Why does it always have to be the women that are all covered up and everyone could say whatever they want and knock them down?? Seriously it gets to a point where I don’t think people are even open to accepting things like this anymore. We just “tune out” to these articles.

    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 70
    Guest
    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 70

    While I am a man, I wrote my comments primarily for married men and unmarried bochrim. I am not trying to preach about tzinius. I am trying to convey to all men the Shulchan Aruch’s stance in terms of whether, with the current state of pritzus on Kingston Ave., it is permissible for them to be there. In my humble opinion, and I have smicha, it is clear that it is 100% assur for any married man and unmarried bocher to even step foot on Kingston Ave., let alone to walk the length of the whole Kingston Ave.

    Two Cents
    Guest
    Two Cents

    This topic I would say is annoying and is always one sided. Just called it a woman’s problem. I can’t believe someone said this is causing folks divorces seriously?

    My conclusion of this one gender topic is men are very weak and fragile.

    disgusted Bubbe
    Guest
    disgusted Bubbe

    I am totally disgusted by the appearance of most of the female women and now sad to say girls( because their Mother’s are no example) in our neighborhood. What is very sad is my sweet aidel grandaughter comes home from Bas Rivkah day camp telling me how un tznius her counselors are dressing .

    There is a way to solve the tzius crises
    Guest
    There is a way to solve the tzius crises

    Remove all the uniforms from girl schools, and replace them by tznius casual wear. Girls will then learn to dress tznius in normal clothing, something that is completely neglected in the schools today. Besides, once they own a tznius wardrobe , it will be an extra expense to buy a non tznius one as well (as it is the opposite is true).
    Of course, the above is unrealistic, as the schools value control and conformity more than tznius and halacha.Maybe when they get their priorities straight, we will see some change.

    a point no one has yet posted
    Guest
    a point no one has yet posted

    Frequently one hears women or girls say “It’s the men’s problem, they shouldn’t be looking.” It’s true that observant Jewish men are not supposed to be looking. But did you ever consider that observant Jewish men are a very small percentage of the population? If you go out dressed immodestly, you are providing food for the fantasies of EVERY man who sees you… the garbage collector, the mail carrier, the bus driver… think about them thinking about your body and then think whether it’s really worth it to dress not like a Bas Yisroel.

    THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!
    Guest
    THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!

    To two cents: You hit it on the mark. When it comes to internal flames, men are weak, yes indeed! Much easier for a fireman to put out a house on fire than his own inner passions. That’s the we were created, since Adam and Chava. Now, you understand why our sages enacted fences, so we should, as best as we can, not get aroused in first place, or, at least, not so much. The more we see, well, than the more we want it. Simple as all that. It’s not, in anyway, as is the misconception, that tznius laws… Read more »

    good article
    Guest
    good article

    very intellectually correct and thats what makes it good I also agree with #12 and I am not a grandmother, I am 16 year old girl. but the measures that are called for as such not ideal yes. its good. thanks to the author.

    Are you all out of your minds?
    Guest
    Are you all out of your minds?

    Seriously? This article was embarassing and you should all be embarassed. Dressing ‘imodestly” if not the cause of the downfall of society, your attitudes are. Women have a right to wear what they want. In fact, friends of mine wear everything from miniskirts to ankle length skirts and they all seem to be enjoying life just fine. Now of course, if you believe that wearing short sleeves or a skirt that doesn’t quite cover the knees is the end of the world as you know it, then please go ahead and dress like how you want. But know this. Sometimes… Read more »

    Kasha man
    Guest
    Kasha man

    The article is generally true. However there are always a few “not good apples” who enjoy being a negative influence and may never care that they are harming themselves as well. This level has been the criterion of our Nesiim for ostracizing people until they have done proper Teshuva.

    to#78
    Guest
    to#78

    I think you got me confused. When I say weak I mean all across the board. Even little girls entice grown men which is sad, no? Men need all the help, but I hope they can help themselves.

    Can’t wait for winter.

    To #73
    Guest
    To #73

    Ur right. I’m sorry about what I wrote before.

    a man
    Guest
    a man

    While tznius is an issue that affects us us all, no man should he standing up and complaining to women. Don’t tell me you ”just cant stand it anymore”. If that’s the case what do you do when you walk down the street in Manhattan? Its not your job to worry about what the neighbor is wearing. Lo sasuru does not give you the right to preach to others. If you are worried about moral decadence then start at home. Spend more time learning and doing mivtzaim and the people around you will look up to you and try to… Read more »

    #80
    Guest
    #80

    You hit the nail on the head. Good shabbos everyone. Peace.

    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 80
    Guest
    Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 80

    You are wrong, women do not have a right to wear whatever they want. Women have to wear what halacha dictates them to wear. The Shulchan Aruch is not here for you to choose what feels right for you or not. It is here to be followed, whether you like it or not. In the case of women’s clothing, Halacha is very clear what is permissible and what is not permissible. A married woman MUST cover her entire hair and cover at least past her elbow and knee. This is not multiple choice. If a married woman walks down Kingston… Read more »

    Style of dress is uplifting
    Guest
    Style of dress is uplifting

    What a great article! And the comments from readers are right on the mark. I personally find the mode of dress on Kingston Ave. quite uplifting. As a shliach, after reading the comments, I decided to remove the mechitza in our shul – after all, if men look, it’s their problem. Same thing for chasunas; so what if women are dancing. Men should understand it’s their problem. We don’t have a tznius issue in Crown Heights – we have a man’s issue.

    to 70
    Guest
    to 70

    What ur saying is exactly what the first paragraph of the article is trying to point out…its just an excuse for not dressing properly! Maybe men should not preach about tznius but don’t be so self centered! Be considerate! Its not comfortable for a man when a women doesn’t dress properly!!! Fact! Whether u like it or not!!

    number 57
    Guest
    number 57

    so basically al pi shulchan aruch you cant go ANYWHERE.?
    for a frum community, CH is terrible, but its better than straight out goyishe places. Are you saying a Jewish man cant go anywhere where iys possible there might be pritzus? There is definately an inyan of shmiras einayim, but to say a person cant (responsibly) venture out into the world for parnasah, shlichis, gorcery shopping, is ridiculous.

    Have rachmanus on our Rebbe
    Guest
    Have rachmanus on our Rebbe

    do you have any idea what others say about Crown Heights and how so many dress there? make all the excuses,it’s loshon hara….. YOU’RE BEHAVIOR IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!

    g

    To number 86
    Guest
    To number 86

    Please – calling her a prutza or the other derogatory terms (like calling them disgusting, or comparing them to non-jews as if this is somehow an insult ?!) in this thread is just another way of calling her a slut or a prostitute but in hebrew so it doesnt sound quite as bad (and you know it – it has nothing to do with the halachic definition of the word). Unless you know how she earns her money none of you should be throwing those terms around and certaintly not in reference to a woman just because she does not… Read more »

    To #87
    Guest
    To #87

    U took the mechitza out of ur shul? What in the world?!?

    To 87
    Guest
    To 87

    Nebach. Do u seriously think we don’t need mechitzas by weddings and Shuls bc it’s the men’s problem if they look? I hope u were being sarcastic.

    to # 80
    Guest
    to # 80

    I cannot believe I what I just read. Do you really think women can dress however they want? Your disregard for Yiddishkeit is astounding! I really feel bad for your husband, your children, ( if you’re married) and especially you. With an attitude like that…..oy. And then you bash the people who DO want to be tznius? How absolutely sad. And what a chilul Lubavitch.

    57 is right!
    Guest
    57 is right!

    sadly enough.

    to  # 76
    Guest
    to # 76

    your comment that “the schools value control & conformity more than tznius &* halacha” are distasteful – schools use uniforms as one way of allowing children from less affluent homes to have the same selfworth as those who would buy designer tznius clothing & don’t for one one moment think this won’t happen… get real

    Wow. Just wow.
    Guest
    Wow. Just wow.

    This article is short yet incredibly to the point. Good on you, Aliza for getting it right!

    i agree
    Guest
    i agree

    Very well written!!! Whouldnt you be ashmaed seeing the rebbe with untzinus clothes?
    Moshiach now

    woah!
    Guest
    woah!

    I am reading these comments with my mouth dropped to the floor! I mean here are some of the statements made”i feel sick looking at the woman dressed untznius” Bocherim are getting sick with depression from this””these woman cant be good parents”and more…..what do you think a woman who is not dressed tznius is going to think reading these comments???These above comments are not logical ,rational they sound like something out of a satmar how to book.

    very well said
    Guest
    very well said

    hope all of us woman do out best to be tznius all the time

    To # 24
    Guest
    To # 24

    It sounds like you and your wife really need some professional help with proper communication, if you are resorting to a public forum to express your frustration in not being able to ” get through” to your wife, and make decisions regarding your daughter together. I don’t know who you are but your description of yourself may be a giveaway to some people who know your daughter or family – how embarrassing for your daughter to read about her parents lack of communication online. To further prevent any more problems with your daughter, it seems quite clear that you need… Read more »

    image consciousness
    Guest
    image consciousness

    I feel uncomfortable with the high value of fashion and image I encounter all the time – and I think tznius is part of it. I walk down the street and everyone has a ‘look’ – men and women – that is perfectly curated. Even little kids with the perfect matching outfit and bows and shoes, girls and boys alike. We have such an obsession with ‘image’ – tznius aside – in terms of dress, speech, how and to whom we relate – which is by the way my impression of societ at large, everyone feels like they have to… Read more »

    Lack of Ahavas Isroel
    Guest
    Lack of Ahavas Isroel

    Love your fellow Jew the way he/she is , and don’t judge …..Rebbe loves every Jew so you must do it too ….
    You want to have a success in any mitzva -do it in the seter /privately

    To #96
    Guest
    To #96

    It doesn’t matter what the reasons is,the fact is , the concept of a uniform is not a Jewish thing, and does nothing to promote tznius. If you believe there are good reasons for it ,just ask yourself, do they override the needs of tznius, which needs to be taught with normal clothing.

    to #41 and the like
    Guest
    to #41 and the like

    I’m # 26. i didn’t write it goes for ALL women. i’m refering to and a litvish rav (i forgot his name) said it as well that when the women dress in the outside it’s because they are not getting their needs love etc.. fulfilled in the inside (of their home).btw goyim don’t have pniyimus since they don’t have a part of Hashem so everything is chitzoniyus and the love that they have is for themselves it’s not for someone else and with that they are never happy and need to be expressed in the “outside”. i just feel that… Read more »

    The ignorance is abounding
    Guest
    The ignorance is abounding

    Tznius is not just a female issue,it applies to men as well. The laws of tznius are not as clear cut as people say it is ,rather it has a lot to do contemporary style. Tznius is not just about other people seeing you a certain way ,but also (and perhaps more importantly) the way one acts and dresses in front of G-D. Being that G-D is everywhere ,tznius applies even behind closed doors (except in a bath house etc.). I guess these comments reveal what is at the heart of the problem, a complete lack of proper chinuch.What does… Read more »

    #87 #87
    Guest
    #87 #87

    I honestly applaud that move, i hope you were serious!! Its true.According to halacha, a woman can dance and sing all she wants . It is the man’s.responsibility to leave.

    to#105
    Guest
    to#105

    What a way to generalize the rest of the world. Unless you are a mind reader you have no idea what people feel. Sometimes I don’t no why I even bother commenting on this taxing topic.

    comments from a younger generation
    Guest
    comments from a younger generation

    dear writer, you are right. mostly. you brought up very true topics about the tznius in ch.however there are a few things which i must disagree with you on. first of all the style and expression you used. as you probably know,tznius isnt only in dress but in speech and action too. You may not have realized but the style and expression of words and language were not exactly tznius. Collive is open to all ages and some phrases werent exactly thought out. you also spoke harshly to a GENERAL population “the women of CH.” you do realize that there… Read more »

    Peace
    Guest
    Peace

    Everyone lives within their own subjective interpretation. Don’t judge a book by its cover.

    ומקרבן לתורה......
    Guest
    ומקרבן לתורה......

    The rebbe said many times, that while we must bring those far from yiddishkeit closer – we must NEVER compromise the holy Torah in the process. Why does one not find any similarly dressed women in ANY OTHER FRUM community EXCEPT crown heights? Answer: Because other communities would not tolerate such a blatant disregard of Torah! Being “accepting and non-judgmental” DOES NOT include taking everything that’s holy and pure and throwing it into a sewer! Crown Heights needs to adopt the same rules that apply in Boro Park, Williamsburg, Monsey and EVERY OTHER NORMAL FRUM community in the world –… Read more »

    Perspective of a baalas teshuva
    Guest
    Perspective of a baalas teshuva

    I came to Yiddishkeit through Chabad nearly 20 years ago. I was exposed to wonderful young women who were intelligent and with it and appropriately dressed. I had pre teen daughters who were also positively influenced by the Lubavitch women we met in a variety of different settings. Over the past many years, I, too, have been distressed by the lack of modesty that is so prevalent in Crown Heights (and elsewhere). I highly doubt that my own attraction to Chabad and growth in observance would have happened as readily in today’s environment as it did back then. Coming to… Read more »

    I'm Tznius but tempted to not be
    Guest
    I'm Tznius but tempted to not be

    I’m Tznius. Because it’s the right thing to do. I struggle. And stillI see how some Lubavitcher women dress and I’m appalled. Growing up in Crown Heights there were always one or two women who pushed the boundaries. No stockings, knee-grazing skirts…But now the percentage has gone way, way up. Skirts not even touching the knees – but many inches above. And too many of them. BUT. 1. Hanging signs about tznius is definitely fanatic and more importantly – it’s ineffective. I’m sure that not only do those signs make anyone more tznius – but they may even turn those… Read more »

    to # 34
    Guest
    to # 34

    you forgot to mention where are the PARENTS!!
    don’t put blame on mashpiim for obvious behavior and most basic elements children should learn at home.

    What is the real issue?
    Guest
    What is the real issue?

    This is NOT a men’s issue or a women’s issue. This is an issue of HALACHA. Does the person care about Halacha? Do they care about yiddishkeit? Yiddishkeit is not about “what do I want to do?” When it comes to Shabbos, kashrus etc is your mindset “what do I FEEL like doing / eating?” Or what does HALACHA mandate??? The same thing is with Tznius. It’s very simple: cover the neckline, elbows & knees! Seriously, how hard is that really??? It’s that inch above or below that makes all the difference whether it’s within Halacha or not. Think about… Read more »

    subsudize the tznius economy
    Guest
    subsudize the tznius economy

    The clothing stores charge much more for tznius clothing which presents more challenges. Subsudize the stores selling exclusively tznius clothing to bring down the prices and be competitive.

    it's mostly because
    Guest
    it's mostly because

    School tuition is too expensive.
    Lower the tuition and tznius will come back.

    ouch!
    Guest
    ouch!

    I feel that that people who like this article are who don’t need it. The critical tone sounds too harsh for the people it is actually addressed to to be able to gain from it.

    To 92, 93, 107
    Guest
    To 92, 93, 107

    Of course I (#87) was being sarcastic. Especially the ‘uplifting’ part. 🙂

    "Why I object to this article..."
    Guest
    "Why I object to this article..."

    B”H In a way it’s very telling how some people seem to be very threatened by this open discussion on tznius and the reaction to it, an overwhelming popular voice objecting to immodest public dress. They say: – “Articles like this don’t help, it’ll just make it worse.” – “We just “tune out” to these articles.” – “Hanging signs about tznius is definitely fanatic.” – “It really bothers me how people think that by posting these long articles and everyone agreeing in the comments, that suddenly, the whole crown heights will be dressing the way you want. I’m sorry but… Read more »

    So to wrap this up...
    Guest
    So to wrap this up...

    Men are animals that can’t be tamed? Hmmm…

    what whisper?!
    Guest
    what whisper?!

    From Friday over Shabbos, over 100 comments is a whisper?!

    Roses
    Guest
    Roses

    Why are the girls always blamed. They boys have bechirah chofshis. Don’t they carry any responsibility?

    Peer pressure
    Guest
    Peer pressure

    It’s sad that many women are falling for the peer pressure

    To #57 etc
    Guest
    To #57 etc

    If it is 100% assur for an unmarried bochur or married man to walk on Kingston Ave, then how on earth is it muttar for male Lubavitcher Chassidim of all shapes and sizes, especially bochurim, to prance around shopping malls, stadiums, businesses etc to doing mivtzoim?

    Then again, if we can get all the men off Kingston Ave, then it won’t be so bad if women do not dress bitznius since there won’t be any men around…

    to 118
    Guest
    to 118

    everyone can gain from this article becasue everyone can do better. I am also a work in progress. It’s not just about how I dress today, it also matters to remember to be mindful of my dress when it’s hot and I’m in a mood to look nice, or buy that outfit that looks so good on me. and even if I never have a problem, I will remember to can find a way to strnghten my sister, nieces, or friend

    to 121
    Guest
    to 121

    “So to wrap this up…
    Men are animals that can’t be tamed? Hmmm… ”

    interesting attitude…I am amazed at how chassidishe men don’t say a thing at what they see on kingstn. I guess you think it’s ok to dress provokingly just to see how men are being tamed on Kingston ave. Do you have a brother, husband, a teenage son you want to ‘tame’. Or maybe you are a man who’s been ‘desensitized’…. Either way that’s just so sad.

    1 small step that every mother that really cares, can take...
    Guest
    1 small step that every mother that really cares, can take...

    …from when your children are little NEVER hire a babysitter/mothers helper to be w/your children, who is not dressed appropriately! I am often shocked to see mothers , who themselves are dressed appropriately, think nothing of letting girls spend hours and hours w/their children…being poor but very powerful role models regarding dress and even values… Why should an impressionable 5 year old be absorbing the subliminal message that a gorgeous and very not tznisidik babysitter is fine (because after all , if mommy hired her , she must think the way she’s dressing is fine), or why should that impressionable… Read more »

    JUST DO IT!
    Guest
    JUST DO IT!

    if not for yourself, at least fpr the safety of the yidden in Eretz Yisrael.
    get past what YOU want- time to think of others, not just you, you, you.

    to#127
    Guest
    to#127

    That person has a point because you miss the very basic unless it’s his mother or sister you can’t talk to women.

    I want to see more!
    Guest
    I want to see more!

    1. This is a wonderful display of care for growth and improvement. Keep on farbrenging about it! LeChaim! 2. Just one point. All this talk of ‘work on the pnimius’, seems to me to be an irrelevant argument HERE. It is certainly true, that people should work on themselves etc. however, that is personal work for the individual. A community/ school/ neighborhood , or for that matter, any goup body leadership, needs to make external, chitzoniusdike rules that , when adhered to, affect that environment as a whole. Well, isn’t Halacha like that? rules for the group to conform to?… Read more »

    to 127
    Guest
    to 127

    There is a famous ‘vort’ that one should only rebuke when it will be adhered to. Us men know far to well, that just saying something will not land very far. It is up to the women of the community to work with their fellows.
    Yes and I think that women who dress provocatively are missing something socially, and it is not for us men to address. that.

    Totally agree with #115
    Guest
    Totally agree with #115

    Let’s try and remain focused on the real issue if we want some real change. Perhaps some are just ignorant of what Halacha mandates…how do we inform the uninformed? How can we make people care about Halacha in a positive way? It’s really NOT about bashing men or women! Perhaps, starting with the younger generation, the schools should not make rules that are STRICTER than Halacha. The need for self expression has to acknowledged, not repressed. And this CAN be done within the confines of Halacha. It used to be that way (you were able to wear any color socks… Read more »

    A proposal
    Guest
    A proposal

    I have a proposal then. Men should stay home and take care of the kids and cook the meals and be everyone’s doctor/physiotherapist/taxi driver and the many the roles the women of this community fulfil. If they cannot control themselves, let them keep their eyes clothes and their mouths shut, the same way you expect of women to be neither seen nor heard. The woman can give public talks, and sing loudly at the shabbos tableand sit on shul boards and do all the things that normally attracts accusations of not being “tzniertz”. Because I know I can do all… Read more »

    your all off track of the point
    Guest
    your all off track of the point

    stop worrying about the girls in “your” community dressings’, start worrying about the hypocrisy of those who run it (institutions and politicians)and lack of care and maintenance for their community.

    behavior
    Guest
    behavior

    This may have been mentioned but I haven’t read the comments yet. The whole approach is wrong. We don’t have to be tznius to ‘protect the men’ (are they babies?). And you can’t tell people that dressing tzniusdig will bring health and parnassah because it sure hasn’t worked for me. Tznius begins not with counting inches or ice cream bribes, but with modeling correct behavior. Yes, behavior in addition to dress. When non frum people are attracted to yiddishkeit through shluchim, they are not attracted by the shlucha’s long skirt but by the whole package of erlichkeit and mentchlikeit. You… Read more »

    Agree with #136
    Guest
    Agree with #136

    I second that!! People think that by being so into their chassidishkeit, they could forget about the world. You see it, people are so so into learning a sicha and saying their sefer hamitzvos that they have no manners whatsoever and look down upon anyone different than them. How is that meant to be shlichus?? You want to be so frum, why not share it with others?? But they are too caught up in things to even be able to relate to anyone lower than them.

    1960's
    Guest
    1960's

    When did this become such a top topic??!! I dress tzniusdikly- I don’t care not to ,I have other interests in my life and clothes and how I look doesn’t do anything for me. However looking back at old pics of frum chassidisher women in my community from the late 60’searly 70’s it’s shocking that the same ppl preaching tznius were wearing short skirts and dresses with hemlines clearly above the knee and elbows exposed! Can someone please explain that??!!

    it's not a few centimetres here and there.
    Guest
    it's not a few centimetres here and there.

    Men are bombarded all day by women’s skin, flirting, singing, etc. When I come home I want to relax and what do I see? Our own women trying to outdo the street. It’s so disappointing. There is not a moment of peace besides the 10 seconds under the tallis in the morning and maybe the davening if you’re lucky. Unfortunately, you’re bombarded in shul with street talk as well.

    To 138
    Guest
    To 138

    Yes, it’s because depsite what people in the Lubavitcher community think, tzniertz standards are very malleable and much more reliant on societal standards than any specific halacha. My mother grew up very orthodox and definitely wore skirts way above her knees – and so did every one in her community – the very same length I would have gotten in trouble for even thinking about wearing. The same thing about head coverage. Noone wore sheitels, they wore hats or tichels, sometimes with hair showing, if they wore anything at all.

    to #139
    Guest
    to #139

    As if it’s only the women’s fault. You know how many guys are flirting and acting not according to halacha? Just because they don’t have set guidelines for how they’re meant to dress, doesn’t meant they’re free to do whatever they wish. Why only the women??

    all over
    Guest
    all over

    Not everyone that lives in crown Heights is Labavitch, so this is how some people are used to dressing, I am not saying it is right,, to wear your skirts way above your knees, and please dont tell me why dont these people move, it is not so easy to get up and move these days.

    :-)
    Guest
    :-)

    1) you started off with a wonderful case for Tznius (thought provoking, honest, insightful, cleaver….several good layer) 2) your second point was too accusatory and will not be effective, particularly with Lubavitchers. Even if deep down on some subconscious level it’s true, it really doesn’t matter. Listen, I watch my weight (similar construct) and make sting attempts to look good. If I was incredibly careless (literally) as in I didn’t care what other people thought and my self esteem was through the roof that being overweight didn’t bother me – I suppose on some level you are correct. But that’s… Read more »

    GREAT ARTICLE
    Guest
    GREAT ARTICLE

    Col.live should translate it to Hebrew and publicize in their Israeli site

    Husband's Thoughts?
    Guest
    Husband's Thoughts?

    Just curious… What do the husbands of these women think when they see their wives leave the house with low cut shirts and mini skirts? Do they not feel the need to say something? Do they not care that their wife is in the spotlight and always the cause for attention wherever she goes? If I were a man it would bother me… And vice versa: If my husband was constantly causing attention to himself and everyone (men and women alike) was staring at him as he walked down the street, I would feel very uncomfortable with that. And let’s… Read more »

    to#145
    Guest
    to#145

    I think there is something deep down in yourself that you need to figure it out.

    confused
    Guest
    confused

    just wondering, was l suppose to know who Cameron Russel
    was? I never heard of her before until I googled her after reading this article? Seriously wondering?!
    If you brought her as an example-,how did you know who she was?

    everyone is different
    Guest
    everyone is different

    there are other things that are just important as Tznius, ;and lately thats all you read about on collive, enough already,

    My opinion
    Guest
    My opinion

    Be respectful to me , as you would want me to respect you !

    Oh yes
    Guest
    Oh yes

    There are more important things to fixate on other than the nuances of tzniut, especially now. Don’t you know there’s a war on?

    mindblowing....
    Guest
    mindblowing....

    There are women on this forum who blame MEN for the lack of Tznius!?!?!?!

    Now I’ve heard everything.

    to 150
    Guest
    to 150

    Yes, and when there is a war on, it’s important to increase in kedusha through Torah and Mitzvos. Put on tefillin if you usually don’t, light shabbos candles properly even if you don’t do it regularly, start dressing properly if you don’t do THAT usually. Everyone can add a level up from his/her level. What could be more important beruchnius? The zchus brings protection to our people and to our soldiers. Not my idea or the author’s – the Rebbe said that, you disagree? What are you busy with?

    to 120
    Guest
    to 120

    You are absolutely right!
    Keep this discussion going!

    mixed up...
    Guest
    mixed up...

    I asked about what it actually says in the Shulchon Oruch. When the Shulchon Oruch talks about ‘Tznius’ it not meant as a ‘mindset’, an ‘attitude’, ‘reaching the inner self’, ‘being a role model’, as ‘kindness’, ‘respect’, or any of these important ideas. The dimim of Tznius have a bottom line that have nothing to do with these ideals. It has to do with just physically dressing so as not to appear provocative, PERIOD. Stop mixing in all these unrelated ideas here. We have a problem today that WOMEN have become so liberal about their physical comportment and dress in… Read more »

    a Lubavitcher woman
    Guest
    a Lubavitcher woman

    I am not one to judge others for their dress, we all have our struggles, but, I do not think it is appropriate for any women to guess what affects un-tznius dress has on men, if you are not a man. It is irritating to read comments from (I’m pretty sure)- women telling men to control themselves. If you are not a man you will never fully understand this test!! Also, as #102 pointed out, I believe we have to stop turning how we want to appear, into a religion. Yes, we must look clean neat and beautiful, but if… Read more »

    There is a major war going on
    Guest
    There is a major war going on

    Its time for the Jews to be united and not argue

    Learn from Bais Yaakov
    Guest
    Learn from Bais Yaakov

    I don’t live in CH. I see many women in their 30’s & 40’s dressing not just untznius but what can be termed “racy”. My immediate reaction is that they aren’t happy in their marriages. This spills into how they dress their daughters & the example their daughters see. It’s almost as if they are trying to dress as less obviously Jewish as possible. Many young girls just don’t care. Tznius just doesn’t matter as much as “looking good”. There’s a serious lack of chinuch. In shidduchim it’s not uncommon to hear ” doesn’t wear tights or skirts which cover… Read more »

    Tznius is for women and men as well!!!!
    Guest
    Tznius is for women and men as well!!!!

    It’s not my opinion or someone else’s!!! It’s HaShem’s opinion!!! The whole point of Tznius is to bring KEDUSHA and SANCTITY in our midst – at home and out! It’s not just about attracting others and only about our dress, it’s about bringing G-dliness within us and the world, which is the purpose of all the mitzvahs in the Torah! Please see what the Torah says in Devorim parshas Ki Tetze 23:15 – ״כי ה׳ אלוקיך מתהלך בקרב מחניך להצילך ולתת אויביך לפניך והיה מחניך קדוש ולא יראה ערות דבר ושב מאחריך״ Please look up the translation. The bottom line… Read more »

    Tsnius is not gender exclusive
    Guest
    Tsnius is not gender exclusive

    I am surprised the way our bochurim are dressing was ignoredin this forum. I also found that lurid description of that model not eidel. I think most kids just want to fit in. They dont dress for men but rather for their peers.Do you know mid calf skirts and looser yes boxier tops are in? I just hope the mechanchos of our high schools don’t decide to outlaw them. I remember how we felt as teens we never could do right. Long no good. Short no good. The only way to change things is if it becomes cool to look… Read more »

    horde mentality
    Guest
    horde mentality

    The bottom line is people like to fit in. I was inside a Bais Yaakov school and everyone was dressed very tsniusdik but there were signs of peer pressure with a designer scarf or certain hair accesory or shoe style they all conformed to. You would look ridiculous if you showed up the way some of us dress. If we can get some popular women and girls to change the way they dress while still retaining their class you can bet the masses will follow.

    A tznius out of towner
    Guest
    A tznius out of towner

    Being that I was brought up in an out of town city, I see where all these nisyonos come from. Whenever I visited Beis Rivka in Crown Heights, there was a tznius lady checking every girl to ensure she was wearing tights not socks. Tznius was being FORCED on all the girls. Every “chosid checklist” was all about dressing tzniusly. It got so out of hand and was being so forced on the girls, the girls felt that they had no “bechira”. Well, the result: the minute these girls leave high school…away goes the socks, the tights, the tznius clothing!!!… Read more »

    Well said
    Guest
    Well said

    As a jewish woman and mother of a soldier I applaud your article.

    They Just Don't Care
    Guest
    They Just Don't Care

    Thank you for courageously opening the door on this issue. The sad, but true, part is – it doesn’t matter why they are dressing this way and who is being affected – the women/girls that are half dressed out there just don’t care – period. They are dressing provocatively on purpose and they want your husbands to look at them. They don’t feel guilty about it or want to change and there is nothing we can say or do to change that. I am seriously considering moving out of the cummunity because the standards have gone down so much. My… Read more »

    to#163
    Guest
    to#163

    Nobody is dressing for you to stare at them. Check your own insecurities.

    Well Said!
    Guest
    Well Said!

    Article is well written. If the article is too explicit for you, then you don’t belong on COLlive.

    164
    Guest
    164

    Right on. Believe it or not, most of those people could not give two tosses about you (the stranger on the street). They dress for themselves, and how they dress is between them and Hashem. If being not tzniertz (which can range between wearing socks and walking around naked) is the thing that distresses you so greatly that you come on here and talk about them looking like shiksas and pritzut and basically calling them street walkers then what does that say about you as a person? That doesn’t sound very modest to me. I Why don’t you all look… Read more »

    no. 145
    Guest
    no. 145

    I agree with this article. The men should be telling their wives how to dress or else . My husband tells me that I have to keep his level, and all I want to do is use the aruv to carry a pair a glasses to shule so I can read. Let the men stop providing money so their wives wont be able to purchase untsniut clothing.

    to#167
    Guest
    to#167

    Nowadays women make their own money. Can’t be controlling all the time.

    just put into perspective...
    Guest
    just put into perspective...

    I read this article and I agree with most of it. I just woulld like to add that tznuis is not something positivly encouraged in what is considered “top chabad high schools.” Its something imposed annd certainly not explained. I found through my experience that most of what is imposed should be considered personal chumrahs.the actual halacha has been lost within that. I really think its important to start Basic and build on your own levels of tznius.otherwise to me it just looked like a whole bunch. Of rules of do and don’t and makes it seem impossible.

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