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Monday, 21 Sivan, 5779
  |  June 24, 2019

    Musings On 379 Comments

    From the COLlive inbox: Chaya Sara Waldman reflects on her Op-Ed on Tznius rules and the 379 comments which followed. Full Story

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    right and wrong
    Guest
    right and wrong

    We surely need to seek many diverse methods to reach out to our girls (and women) and make snius an inviting, meaningful, empowering thing to do. We have to reach their souls, their minds, and their hearts. BUT that does not negate the need for basic laws of snius to be promoted directly in our community. If you call yourself a lubavitcher, in any way, if you feel something for the Rebbe, know that it is Lubavitch 100% to cover your collarbone, knees, and elbows at all times. this is not news. this is not up for debate. you may… Read more »

    Thank you
    Guest
    Thank you

    For those not comfortable with the rules there is a a school in CH with no tznuus rules.

    "Increasingly extreme"?!
    Guest
    "Increasingly extreme"?!

    “the increasingly extreme community norms”? So women who are walking around in the shortest of skirts, with the shortest and tightest of sleeves, etc., are getting harassed? Not happening. On the contrary, the “community norms” here are getting more and more lax, as anyone with a pair of eyes can see.

    Applause to our community's Mes. Waldman
    Guest
    Applause to our community's Mes. Waldman

    Yaasher Koach to Mrs. Waldman!
    You speak what others don’t have the courage to!
    You have taken tznius and put it in its proper perspective-
    not a kick you out of my school if you don’t adhere to my rules!
    Shame on a Mossad that has to talk that way! Tznius is a privilege and shift to women and girls – that’s how it has to be presented!

    You are a inspiration
    Guest
    You are a inspiration

    Thank you very much.

    im just confused
    Guest
    im just confused

    im a little surprised, it sounds like you are someone who has all the right intentions with what you say and are trying to do, yet you wrote a controversial op-ed, got blasted, and instead of just accepting it (like you say you usually do) you write another one trying to justify it and tell high school girls to”folllow their gut”? what is your goal? just go back to being a part of the “silent public” it was fun while it lasted, but its enough now.

    Here we go again
    Guest
    Here we go again

    If you love crown heights as you say or care any tiny bit about its sanctity then please respect the standards of one school in this neighborhood that wants to prevent the downward slope this community as a whole is heading towards in terms of tznius. They have their way in their school and you have yours. Respect that please.

    CH Homeowner
    Guest
    CH Homeowner

    Beautiful. eloquent. Just beautiful.

    Rules
    Guest
    Rules

    I find it offensive that you refer to rules of tznius as bitter medicine. It makes me highly doubt your true intentions

    We need rules
    Guest
    We need rules

    I’m really not sorry for someone who may not feel welcome in this community because of strict rules of tznius. No one should feel comfortable walking around this neighborhood with nothing on their feet or plain leggings and no skirt. Sorry no pity here.

    Package deal
    Guest
    Package deal

    No one is saying that it’s only about tznius and that’s it. Of course menchlichkeit is important!!! But clearly defined rules are necessary for a school to ensure that the parents are on the same page as them in terms of chinuch

    Very sad
    Guest
    Very sad

    One thing I find it hard to understand , a Chassidsh man is the one who is setting standards on the length of wigs, nail polish color, skirt length, if your shirt is too tight too revealing. I wonder , worry , what sites is this man exploring? A woman but it is so not ok a man. I hear he checks out the length of the girls skirts in the morning and if the are not ok, a call to the parents and they are send home. Very odd behavior for a d frum Lubavitcher Chassid. I know I… Read more »

    You still don't get it
    Guest
    You still don't get it

    After 379 plus comments you are still harping on one letter from one school with guidelines for their school. Did you apologize for the damage you caused with ppl denigrating this sacred mitzvah?!?!? No you didn’t?!?!? Did you apologize to Rabbi Gurary for being the catalyst of negative comments about him?!?! Nope again. Instead you used your words to further complain about rules. Get a grip! Maybe learn from the meraglim in this week’s parsha one tiny bit?!

    Thank you
    Guest
    Thank you

    I have been patiently waiting to hear these beautiful words that express my thoughts for years. ייישר כח

    Missing info
    Guest
    Missing info

    Please post the original letter from rabbi gurary so that everyone can see what this lady is tantruming about. Maybe also explain what shoulder blades are and where they are located. Shoulder blades are bones on the right and left side of the back ending just about below the arm pits. A sheitel longer than that isn’t tznius end of story. A problem with leggings? Look at ppl waltzing around with leggings and no socks or even worse with NO SKIRT!!!!!

    Chaya Sara Waldman
    Guest
    Chaya Sara Waldman

    There is no person by this name that lives in Crown Heights. Perhaps write your real name, then we can have a conversation.

    Lost opportunity
    Guest
    Lost opportunity

    You had your pesach sheni to rectify what u blew the first time around and you blew it. But you can still apologize to Hashem, to bnos menachem and to anyone who you may have given the green light to trample on the mitzvah of tznius

    Dear Mrs. Waldman
    Guest
    Dear Mrs. Waldman

    To begin with,your letter makes several seemingly baseless assumptions. Secondly, many other communities,which have stricter tzneeus standards in school and in general,don’t have the crisis we have. Maybe it’s time to stop thinking so much about feelings and start thinking more about kabalos ol and the fact that we are the Rebbe’s representatives.

    like
    Guest
    like

    i agree with alot of what you write here….I am a chabad woman living in CH (which i also dearly love) and i know exactly what you are referring to when u say howto approach the tznius issue,,,,many many years ago when I was a young mother i was at a lecture that reb Yehudis Heller ah’ gave on tznius….but i probably can’t even call it a lecture All I remember is when i walked out all i wanted with all my heart and soul and being was to be tznius….I wish I could remember the words she used… it… Read more »

    Yossi A
    Guest
    Yossi A

    You say you love lubavithcers .
    Sounds like some of my best friends are…..

    I am a Bnos Menachem parent.
    I am behind these new rules 1000000%. What has happened to the Rebbe’s shevhuna is an embarrassment toto the Rebbe. It’s about to me someone stood up for the minority of families that still care about kiddush shem Lubavitch & tzinius.

    The way I see it
    Guest
    The way I see it

    I really get the fact that Tznius is a lifestyle, an attitude, not just about inches, I also get the fact that not everyone knows how to impress the Mitzvah on others, and how to affect change long term, but right now it seems that it is an emergency and a band-aid is needed to stop the “bleeding,” to save souls and lives. Rabbi Gurary is applying the pressure on the “wound”. After that is done or even at the same time we could come up with ways to inspire internal Tznius and affect outer Tznius. Of course, doing things… Read more »

    This is beautiful!!!
    Guest
    This is beautiful!!!

    This article is more clear and purposeful than your previous one. Thumbs up !!!!!!

    Waldo
    Guest
    Waldo

    You are missing the point. R Gurary sent a message to his parent body. No one is forced to be part of his parent body. He has every right and responsibility to set high standards. Don’t like it? Your free to find a school that fits you better

    Spirit of tzniyus
    Guest
    Spirit of tzniyus

    Herein may lie the problem. Torah tells us very very practical rules.
    For someone looking for substantive answers There’s a lot of ‘I believe’, ‘I feel’, ‘my opinion is’, oozing from your letters.
    Kosher style and kosher spirit may be fine for some. But a true Chosid knows that we have mesiras nefesh on a kotzo shel yud of halacha, ever we can feel the holy spirit or not.

    I agree with Mrs. waldman
    Guest
    I agree with Mrs. waldman

    She is totally right, eveeeyone knows she dosent want to make others feel bad.
    Her points are correct and i seewhat she has written as AMAZING

    again, missing the points
    Guest
    again, missing the points

    Mrs Waldman does not in any of her writing disagree with the rules of tznius. What she, and many many others, are appaled by is the very non-aidel spotlight again and again and again on women’s bodies. Read what she writes, not what you think in your own narrow mind!

    "Bocheh l'mishpechosav"
    Guest
    "Bocheh l'mishpechosav"

    It’s rather hashgachah pratis that this discussion started during the week of Parshas Behaaloscha, because there’s something in that parsha that teaches us a great deal about this. Rashi tells us that when the posuk tells us that the Jewish people were crying “by families at the entrance of their tents,” what they were really complaining about were the restrictions on who they’re allowed to marry (arayos). Now, consider. At that time, they hadn’t even been taught all 613 mitzvos yet, and of course few if any Rabbinical mitzvos (or chumros) had been promulgated. Yet we see that the Jews… Read more »

    shocked and confused
    Guest
    shocked and confused

    I am shocked how immature CH has become. Adults fighting like children, we are acting like first graders. Is this how we want our kids to act? Please remember who you are and how us lubavitchers should be acting….

    To comment #1
    Guest
    To comment #1

    There’s a lubavitch way of enforcing rules.
    Gurary’s way is definitely NOT it.

    379 comments for a reason
    Guest
    379 comments for a reason

    Do u feel guilty that you can not uphold these Tzniyus rules? I understand that you may be suffering with it and that is OK, but to make a statement saying that rules are “bitter medicine”, that is a far cry from the truth. One could have a hard time with tzniyus, but to say tzniyus rules are not the correct way of chinuch is absolutely wrong. Das Yehudis and the Shulchon Aruch was created for a reason. We are all about feeling closer to Hashem and connecting to G-D but where did the basic halacha of covering our elbows… Read more »

    #welovecollivedrama
    Guest
    #welovecollivedrama

    Look at this!! Because of that eiruv!!
    Now, look?! The shidduch crisis.

    A Young Professional
    Guest
    A Young Professional

    Thank you for sharing this with us, it made a great impression on me, coming from a more modern background.
    Thank you Mrs. Waldman*!
    *or whatever your name really is

    Like the yetzer hora
    Guest
    Like the yetzer hora

    The yetzer hora also says “I love you and care about you so that’s why you should just bend your standards a tiny bit”. Nice try using your supposed love for the community to push your agenda of speaking out against tznius

    Yawn.....
    Guest
    Yawn.....

    Before you go around parading that you did not get substantive answers, do understand that in general you are extremely disingenuous. “is distorting its meaning, abusing its spirit” you love to make statements, not backed up in poskim or precedent, and then repeat it over, in order to stamp it as a fact. ” who worry they will have to leave Crown Heights because of the increasingly extreme community norms. ” As far as the facts are concerned more people who do not really fit here are staying in ever increasing numbers. seems like you really live on alternative planet.… Read more »

    a bnos menachem student
    Guest
    a bnos menachem student

    I am so proud of my school!
    While the entire crown heights is freaking out about our tznius rules, I am feeling so proud. Proud that my school has set standards that any yid, and especially a lubavitcher dugmah Chaya, should have inborn within them. We are yidden and we’re proud! we’re chassidim and we’re proud! ASHREINU!

    #31 sums it all up!
    Guest
    #31 sums it all up!

    lol.
    everyone be jewish, cover up cuz it says to do that in the 5 books of moses (remember that…?) and have ahavas yiroel, cuz it says that in there too.

    to #9
    Guest
    to #9

    Read! Read! Read what she wrote! Or did you never pass your reading comprehension class??
    The ‘foul medicine’ phrase she uses refers to the tactics, the un-mitzvah of shaming! Please don’t comment if you’re misinterpreting, either deliberately or because you just don’t comprehend what’s written in plain (maybe not so simple) English!

    Bottom line is....
    Guest
    Bottom line is....

    Both sides mean well….each to their own approach.. as long as it’s encouraging tznius..

    TO #30
    Guest
    TO #30

    tznius is a way of life, not rules! to make rules about something that is a mitzvah is ridiculous. Hashem commanded us to be tznius, we should not hear this from a principal of a school. students are going to school to learn Torah, not how long their hair should be, etc. this is between us and Hashem, nobody else. very confused.

    Rabbis (who are men) clarifying halacha
    Guest
    Rabbis (who are men) clarifying halacha

    Dear Ms. Waldman and #26, When a woman wears provocative clothing, makeup and sheitels to put her face and body in the spotlight, she should not be shocked when others comment on it (yes, even men. Are they supposed to be blind?) The Torah shebaal peh and sifrei Halacha are full of rules and discussions about every aspect of life including a woman’s body and manner of dressing. How dare the tannoim and amoraim discuss women like that? How dare they lay down rules and coerce us? Because they are men?Really? And we should do away with all rules in… Read more »

    Who says chaya Sara waldman is married
    Guest
    Who says chaya Sara waldman is married

    Why does everyone refer to her as Mrs? I was considering writting an Op-Ed about how crown heights has fallen so low to assume all middle age women are married. I mean women are independent, how can you make such am assumption. I scroll through the comments and see people saying Mrs waldman this Mrs waldmam that. I mean i know this tznius issue is a big deal, but did everyone forget about the shidduch crisis????! Anyway after much consideration I decided not to write the Op-Ed and settle for a comment, because I couldn’t think of a suitable yet… Read more »

    to #4.
    Guest
    to #4.

    Ms Waldman & Co.’s tznius, or lack thereof, speaks volumes. It is plain to see, as are the ankles, and other parts of the anatomy which too many Crown Heightsers daily flaunt in everyone’s face. I guess it’s time to throw out all the Shulchan Aruchs one can find, especially in Crown Heights, since, according to Ms Waldman, et al, no once wants to be told what to do. And that is what the Shulchan Aruch does. It tells Jews what to do. And especially our Rebbe, who told many to be ”a Shulchan Aruch Jew”, no doubt meaning at… Read more »

    To #20, #21, #35
    Guest
    To #20, #21, #35

    Very well said. Very well put.

    Thank you Rabby Gurary for the Hatzoloh Nefashos which you are trying to effect.

    Someone has to do it. Your place in Shomayim is assured.

    To the author (whatever your name really is)
    Guest
    To the author (whatever your name really is)

    It is easy to claim that you are completely tznius when you are anonymous and no one can disagree. I believe that ultimately, since you are discouraging raising the standards in tznius (albeit using the cloak of one who is perfectly tznius -perfect? Really?) you call into question that claim as well. As an educator (if you indeed are one), you should know that you must be so careful with your words lest others, and especially our youth, find room to interpret them to mean that tznius is not the most important, and rules are not necessary… You bemoan the… Read more »

    seriously CH?
    Guest
    seriously CH?

    With Achdus we should live, for that is our goal! Viahavta liraicha kamocha….

    Do you wanna look right??
    Guest
    Do you wanna look right??

    Tznius is the way, it’s the Torah way!! Tznius- I love it!! Every. Single. Day.

     I am fearful about the future of our community.
    Guest
    I am fearful about the future of our community.

    Hey, I’m not fearful that women walk out of their homes with no skirt, no tights, no sleeves, walking hand in hand with their husbands who are wearing kapotes on Shabbos. I’m just very fearful about the future of our community because since we are brain-dead and don’t have an instinctive feeling for tznius anymore, we will all disintegrate because there are RULES that are about to be enforced! Gevalt!!!! I am terribly fearful about the future of our community, because hey, there are RULES about kosher kitchens – and Oy Vey if some Rabbi tries to tell us to… Read more »

    Simple solution
    Guest
    Simple solution

    There is a very simple solution to the so called tznius crisis, remove the uniforms from all the girl schools, so that tzinus is taught in real life clothing. I wrote an open ed about it like ten years ago, of course it fell on death ears. Anyhow, to all the people quoting shulchon aruch, most of what Rabbi Gurary writes about the specific limitations of girls clothing is not found in the shulchon aruch itself, rather in later Posskim. In the shulchon aruch itself Tznius applies equally to men and woman, and has a lot more to do then… Read more »

    two different ways of presenting truths
    Guest
    two different ways of presenting truths

    Both are right and we need to speak positively and recognise that we are in ikvisa demoshiach when these discussions are taking place.
    where does it say in halacha the length of a sheitel is not tznius.never heard that before except in non chabad circles.

    Wow
    Guest
    Wow

    You write so nicely and beautifuly!!!! KOL HAKAVOD CHAYA SARA WALDMAN!!!

    Thank you for taking your time to write for

    THE SILENT PUBLIC

    To 20
    Guest
    To 20

    Could not be better written. People like Ms. Waldman unfortunately dragged our community so hepech not only Chassidisher norms but basic Halacha.

    Why do we mention tznius? Because since Gimmel Tammuz it wasn’t mentioned enough and tznius isn’t just about clothes. It’s not normal that CH and Chabad around the world keep Cholov Yisroel yet go to clubs and smoke weed. This happened because of a laxity of tznius, and with it often comes a goyishe, wild, and vulgar lifestyle and culture.

    Basic halacha
    Guest
    Basic halacha

    I wonder why Gemara focuses on so many details do the oz and cow? Maybe we should focus on general fairness and automatically everyone will just inherently know how to be fair? Hashem’s will is holy. It is expressed in the detail she of Halacha. It is not “obsessing over a woman’s body” but clarifying Halacha . Is Taharas ha Mishpacha obsessing over a woman’s body ? Should we just talk about being generally pure? There’s details my friend! And to accuse women of “falling for it”? A high school principal has every right to call a girl in who’s… Read more »

    Mrs. Waldman sh',
    Guest
    Mrs. Waldman sh',

    I apologize in advance for this comment, like many others above, not being in line with the support and legitimization that you probably expected from writing the article you just wrote. I have to say that very frankly, I disagree. I disagree with you and I disagree with the many comments who come across as “in the box” kind of people. Just a question to ponder, and I would like to take this through a logical process: shulchan aruch is rules. The Alter Rebbe inserted reasons for the rules into his shulchan aruch so that we would understand these rules.… Read more »

    Adding to number nine
    Guest
    Adding to number nine

    Exactly,and maybe we shouldn’t do ANYTHING till we feel in our hearts and minds that we should do this?!? That’s not the way it works in yidishkeit, first we follow the rules and then we try to understand and feel and eventually enjoy what we’re doing. That’s the basis of all Judaism,WE WILL DO THEN WE WILL LISTEN 👂. Rabbi gurary could make whatever rules he wants in his school without having to be oppressed by anyone

    satmar
    Guest
    satmar

    Why does not Mrs. Waldman do some research on satmar, to share with us the secret of their success with tzius?

    Rescuing Rabbi Gurary?
    Guest
    Rescuing Rabbi Gurary?

    That’s where you lost me!
    Anyway people who eat only fish in a non kosher restaurant are about the same level as chassidim walking around with exposed hair, arms and legs. People need to know it’s not kosher

    to #41
    Guest
    to #41

    you really summed up the entire argument up in a fantastic way. i thank you greatly for shedding such great light on a highly controversial and confusing issue. In years to come people will surely be quoting “Comment no. 41”

    to no.55
    Guest
    to no.55

    satmars might seem tznius outwardly but they all feel inwardly negatively towards tznius because of the approach that is taken towards it and they begin to disobey when they have the cahnce. TRUST ME I HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THIS

    very genderist
    Guest
    very genderist

    why is there no op-ed’s about boy’s level of tzius

    Never ok
    Guest
    Never ok

    It’s not appropriate for a man to tell a woman off for the tznius.That in itself negates modesty.

    much ado about nothing
    Guest
    much ado about nothing

    Why does tznius issue engender so many comments? way more important pieces on col get about six comments. Mrs. Waldman has a point of view. She is entitled to it since clearly many readers are supporting her. It is also true that young women in our schuna are walking around with a very strong lack of tznius. Now…what do we do about it?? I say nothing! Shaming, blaming, threatening the women does nothing except make them wear the stockings to pick up their daughters then dress the way they please the rest of the time. We will of lose some… Read more »

    Grab a guitar
    Guest
    Grab a guitar

    I am friendly with a Reconstructionist rabbi. She quotes sources that tell of the spiritual and emotional connection that is supposed to be accomplished in prayer, and therefore she is dismissive of the rabbi who established a set text and protocol for prayer. She believes that everyone should pray as their heart tells them to. In her temple, everyone is encouraged to bring to prayer whatever it may be that helps them evoke feelings. One comes with a guitar, another recites poetry, yet another closes his eyes and meditates. This woman vehemently and sarcastically derides from the pulpit the group… Read more »

    Suggestion from the reading public
    Guest
    Suggestion from the reading public

    Commenters- please put a space between your huge paragraphs. No one can read that giant block of words. You obviously worked a long time writing up all of your opinions and we’d like to read them. But a wall of words is just an unread wall. Thank you.

    Rabbi Gurary is accomplishing
    Guest
    Rabbi Gurary is accomplishing

    I hope the negative comments do not affect you. This is a quote””There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.” This ‘Waldman’ lady is a nothing, not doing anything, saying worse than nothing. You and your wife are accomplishing so much – you should be gebentched and it should come easy for you.

    Thank you for your letter.
    Guest
    Thank you for your letter.

    I completely agree with your points. Girls should be encouraged to express themselves creatively within halachic guidelines, and should be taught how women can look beautiful while still adhering to halacha. Everything about Rabbi Gurary’s letter negates that point; it narrows tznius down to a list of restrictions; most of which are not based on halacha and are actually extremes. Why are people not focusing on how Crown Heights, a community which used to be all about finding beauty in mitzvot, has turned into a restriction based community where everyone judges the other? I don’t live in Crown Heights and… Read more »

    to number 58, satmar
    Guest
    to number 58, satmar

    I challenge people to go to Williamsburg and see for themselves. Why cannot you admit Satmar has good qualities, and we can perhaps learn from them? Not just tznius, but chesed, and I sure much more…

    Police and army have dress codes, stricktly enforced, and no one is protesting!
    Guest
    Police and army have dress codes, stricktly enforced, and no one is protesting!

    Most organized institutions have dress code or dress rules. Even non- Jewish ones. Politicians obey them, restaurant workers dress the part, workers at Macy’s all dressed in black in the makeup/perfumes department, and no one seems to think something is wrong here! A soldier can get punished for hair that is too long. So does a cop with a neglected-looking uniform. And everyone respects that! Only this group of entitled young hipster-Crown Heightsers who think that waving the “its now 2017” will clear all doubts, keep on fighting the rules of our foundation, because, like all liberals- they know best!… Read more »

    Los Angeles parent
    Guest
    Los Angeles parent

    Thank you so much for your words. When my daughters were in school here, they were greeted at the door by a “monitor” with a ruler. This monitor’s purpose was to measure the length of their skirt to make sure it fell exactly at the right place between the knees and ankles. Needless to say, this ridiculous practice completely obliterated any inspiration these girls may have had to be tznius in their dress. What is really needed is less “rulers” and more inspiration. When I was in school, there was a moshul that we learned: The sun and the wind… Read more »

    Tzvius
    Guest
    Tzvius

    By claiming to have a message of ahavas yisroel while having no qualms about judging and denigrating another yid and his mosad publicly, it’s evident that it’s not ahavas yisroel that’s at the heart of this aricle, but an obsession with tolerance/ liberalism often confused with ahavas yisroel. See Lekutei Sichos vol. 35 vayishlach for the difference between a ” Tzanua” (modest) or “Tzavua” (pretender). This article clearly falls into the category of the latter, for many more reasons than not giving her actual name. Here are just two: While being sure to let you know that she is tznius’dig… Read more »

    An Innovative Idea
    Guest
    An Innovative Idea

    Let’s post the Halachos of Tznius
    The Beauty & Benefits
    On Facebook, Instagram etc.

    This way, they can easily be
    Followed
    Liked &
    Shared

    Opinion
    Guest
    Opinion

    Who ever is behind this waldman name is a hipocrit with conflicting mesages.You would do much better being quiet. Why is the Tnius issue even up for coments?That should be normal in Lubavitch community who has to be an example how a real C hosid looked and behaves.Instead all you with the Tnius problem cause other groups of Chasidim where Tnius is a given to wonder as to the cause of such degradation . Please all of you who do not conform to the standard requirements of levush don’t bring embarasment to the rest of us by calling yourself Lubavich.… Read more »

    To #16 and #55
    Guest
    To #16 and #55

    Maybe Chaya Sara Waldman is not a person, it’s a concept…

    to #55
    Please go and spew your “I think chabad is the best and satmar is the worst” fanaticism elsewere. Your statement is a sweeping generalization and absolutely ridiculous, despite you writing “TRUST ME I HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THIS”

    Womens Opinion
    Guest
    Womens Opinion

    I agree with CS Waldman, and my advice to Gurary is to have ladys decide all the Tzinius issues not men that have other issues and side issues that conflict with the best way to get the best results.

    Read the article objectively
    Guest
    Read the article objectively

    I feel that many commentators are using this article to voice their extreme opinions. While the articles aim is to not alieante others based on what they’re wearing but to shed a positive light on tznius . what I do however find extreme is rabbi gurarys rules. Private schools can have their exclusive rules. But to ban wearing denim, long hair and sheitels and nailpolish is not lubavitch halacha.

    Thank you, #53
    Guest
    Thank you, #53

    Truthfully stated. In the 1940’s and 50’s some public shool students reported their teachers measuring their hemlines. This was in order to enforce the rules they had for uniforms. These were not Jewish schools. It may be that some of the older teachers in our schools, who had been educated in public schools before the advent of Day Schools, internalized this type of approach–the strict, follow the rules approach–for children of the 70’s with less than success. That is not to say that people may flout halacha and blame others. I see more and more immaturity of thought and emotion… Read more »

    I love COL!
    Guest
    I love COL!

    I love the banter and range of comments here.

    This truly rocks my boat.

    better then page 6 anyday of the week!

    Ms Waldman kudos, you explained yourself very well at least to me.

    Ok, all carry on 🙂

    You never win a War by creating another War !!!
    Guest
    You never win a War by creating another War !!!

    Tznius is of utmost importance, both for men and more so for women. However, enforcing these Torah standards can not be done by threatening, punishing or throwing children out of our Chinuch mosdos. You don’t win a fight (no matter how right it might be) by creating another fight. It’s only with proper Chinuch and being a true Dugmah Chaya of what a Chassidish, Torah lifestyle is all about, that will ultimately work. The Rebbe’s approach to all issues was ” accentuate the positive and it will automatically eliminate the negative”. As Tanya says, Don’t fight the Yetzer Hora, but… Read more »

    halacha?
    Guest
    halacha?

    mid calf skirts is not halacha…..cover your knees is

    schools are meant to educate not brainwash
    Guest
    schools are meant to educate not brainwash

    the girls schools care more about how the students dress than with the quality of the education they provide. That includes secular as well as Jewish subjects. The girls are well aware of the schools priorities and they resent it. As any parent of a teenage daughter can tell you – many many teachers are not qualified and haven’t been for the past 20 years or more they have been teaching. The girls have brains and they want to use them. Today many girls are taking the algebra regents – they were poorly prepared by their teachers. We cannot be… Read more »

    #47, #53
    Guest
    #47, #53

    Beautiful! Well said and interesting

    Chaya
    Guest
    Chaya

    Thank you Bnos Menachem for taking a stand and creating standards for our children. This community needs more people to stand up and demand that we follow RULES that the Rebbes chassidim should be following. Perhaps creating standards and setting rules is the thing that’s missing here. Apparently “the spirit of tznius” is not working in our community. Be honest with yourself. Do you feel the lack of tznius is because people speaking up about it or because no one has set any real standards? Please respect and don’t fight our school,m. Allow them to speak up so all the… Read more »

    My holy opinion ;)
    Guest
    My holy opinion ;)

    All she is saying is that there is something very wrong when tznius is given the spotlight. Which is true. Unfortunately however, it has become such a major issue that it can no longer be treated with respectful silence. It must be given the spotlight for something to change. R. Gurary felt the boundaries need strengthening. However, for anything that’s gevurah we need that much more chessed. What can we do now to spotlight tznius in a way of chessed? The other option as I see it is to accept that while there will always be strong true chassidim in… Read more »

    Rabbi Gurary did not issue an edict to the community,
    Guest
    Rabbi Gurary did not issue an edict to the community,

    he has merely put forth rules for his school. For which he’s entitled, all schools have rules. That said, I have to wonder why collive saw fit to publish 2 articles of nothing more than an anonymous person’s opinion. I thought you were a Jewish news and educational site. Is this possibly an opinion you endorse? ‘Chaya waldman’s’ basic premise is flawed, and her reasoning is faulty. But in every false thing there has to be a little truth to be accepted. That is as I see it, when rebuking another Yid, we have to pare our nails!

    If you cant take the heat...
    Guest
    If you cant take the heat...

    “Mrs. Waldman”, Our holy Rebbe and Rebbetzin designed this Shchuna after the exacting standards of The Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe. To aid them they had Chassidim and mechanchim whom they guided diligently.
    It’s very hard to come from somewhere else and get used to these “Royal” standards, but this is not just any Jewish neighborhood. If you want to live in the Rebbe’s daled amos, you need to subscribe to his standards.

    True tznius
    Guest
    True tznius

    You say these rules are pushing away people from true tznius, which probably means you dress in a long shaitels, leggings, etc. Have you asked a Rav if the items you question are tznius? Or you are too liberated to ask a Rav shialas?
    As Jews we are part of Hashem’s army . The school has a right to enforce regulations just like the army enforces regulations of dress for it’s soldiers.

    Interesting dichotomy
    Guest
    Interesting dichotomy

    As a BT my first trips to ch were very traumatic because I did not know how to dress tznius. I was met with cold stares, elevator looks, getting yelled at etc to the point I avoided ever walking on Kingston. Today I’m fully frum and tznius not because of getting attacked but by a community who respected my growth and never brought up the topic. Now when I visit ch the lack of tznius is obvious, but people in general seem much more kinder. Less judgemental. I recently spoke to a BT friend about it who also dreaded ch… Read more »

    To "Mrs. Waldman"
    Guest
    To "Mrs. Waldman"

    Having read your self-serving, justifying “explanation” which turned out to be just a less hysterical version of your first angry rant, I had no cheishik to read the comments. Nevertheless, it seems to me that
    a. You need another 15 minutes of fame.
    b. you need a lesson in humility.
    c. You need to learn how to apologize.
    d. You need to know that less is more.

    Please do the community a favor… stop writing. And COL, please don’t give this person any more coverage; perhaps he/she will go back to “loving” CH from a silent position.

    Chinuch
    Guest
    Chinuch

    What does it do for our children’s chinuch to have these articles and comments online? You are concerned about the way children and their mothers are approached with tznius – but are these articles and comments a positive approach in teaching children? You are concerned that the rules in the school are beyond the requirements of tznius so an article by a Rav and letters or sichas of the Rebbe about the guidelines of tznius are what is needed on this website. We need to hear from a Rav about this subject and it would be inspiring to read the… Read more »

    What about?
    Guest
    What about?

    What about open toed shoes, slits in skirts, bright red lipstick, red clothing, pockets in the backs of skirts, etc. etc.?

    NOCH A HOCK
    Guest
    NOCH A HOCK

    Every couple of months there s a new hock on the block!
    1st the eruv, then pizza, then tznius!
    They say there s a yeridas hadoros… I’m actually impressed with the upgrade! We went from shtus like food to heilige tznius standards!
    Oh wait, but also with a lot of lashon horah intertwined, so maybe not…

    Loves your first letter and your second even more.
    Guest
    Loves your first letter and your second even more.

    Thank you for being a voice of sanity and reason and inspiration in an issue that extends beyond crown heights. Love being a Lubavitcher but our society needs to get a grip.
    Thank you Chaya Sara Waldman!

    Yeshaya
    Guest
    Yeshaya

    The novi Yeshaya (a man!) spoke out about tznius issues in his time, and not even objective violations of them (short sleeves or skirts, etc.), but things like “walking with neck stretched forth and painted eyes.” And for that he warns of harsh consequences (Yeshaya 3:16). Think about that, everyone who claims that a man has no business talking about tznius rules, or that it’s going beyond what halachah requires, etc.

    To #57
    Guest
    To #57

    I couldn’t have said it better. Comment #41 must’ve taken real guts and brains to write. To see the core of the issue, and really say what has to be said with such bravery. I mean it’s not easy times. On that note, of the tznius crisis, combined with the feminism crisis, and the shidduch crisis, i also noticed thay there is a new crisis that the mamicure salons in crown heights continue to increase in price. Its very subtle, but dollar by dollar, they hike their prices. I mean that attitude is the same one we see with crown… Read more »

    #78
    Guest
    #78

    The halacha, as also written/spoken by the Rebbe, is that the knees need to be covered even when sitting. The length required for this to happen is around mid-calf.
    I have a really hard time with this halacha actually, but I dont pretend that its not the halacha… it’s something I am trying to work towards and I admire those who wear mid calf skirts

    Oyvey
    Guest
    Oyvey

    Why is collive allowing justifying a lack of tznius! Hullo kudos to those who are struggling to hold on to that which,keepa our nation holy.
    I wish my daughter went to BM.

    Proud to be a Bnos parent
    Guest
    Proud to be a Bnos parent

    Even though I find these rules difficult, I’m glad there are strict tznius rules. Ones tznius generally displays a person’s yiras shomayim…those who are stringent with tznius are usually stringent with other halachos and vice versa..laxity in this area usually that person is lax in other areas. So I am thankful to be part of a mosad that puts a great emphasis on this…it keeps me from sliding down the way I see so many others going… And it is precisely the importance that we put on our appearance that we should be making it important…if it’s so important to… Read more »

    to no. 87
    Guest
    to no. 87

    you need to add one very important final e)
    Everyone who agreed with he has no knowledge of HALACHA.
    it’s “l think”, “l feel”.. “who is he to say” .. if it weren’t so terrible it would be a joke

    Simply put..
    Guest
    Simply put..

    Yes, the so called restrictions were put in place by an educator of a private school, however being that the issue became public knowledge people are feeling the need to speak out. As two commentators pointed out the reason for the outcry is because the guidelines that are being required are a step ABOVE the actual tznius Halacha. Wearing a long denim skirt is not Halachacilly untznis. Wearing a long long sheitel is covering your hair and not an issur in Halacha. Yes, we are Chasssidim and we should be following the laws לפנים משורת הדין, however it is not… Read more »

    concerned bubby
    Guest
    concerned bubby

    when i was growing up everything was different. we had the rebbe here showing us the way we would go for dollars hear sichos etc. we just need moshiach to solve our problems so that the rebbe will be here agaimn ad mosai
    who agrees with me
    signed a concerned bubby

    Get over yourself
    Guest
    Get over yourself

    tznius is important. He is in charge of a girls school. Its that simple.

    if you do not like the rules, change schools or just ignore it.

    In case you were wondering…
    Guest
    In case you were wondering…

    For those who wanted to know what the Rebbe’s position is regarding Tznius and Ahavas Yisroel… B’hashgacha protis I was learning the sicha in Chelek Beis on Parashas Behaaloscha (page 314), and so many of these issues were addressed! This is an adaptation, bringing up the points in the sicha that are relevant to this discussion. (See the source above for the Rebbe’s own words.) First the Rebbe discusses how the Menorah represents the Yidden, and that the seven branches symbolize the seven different paths of serving Hashem – chesed, gevurah, etc. The Rebbe says there how no single approach… Read more »

    Tznius and cheesburger
    Guest
    Tznius and cheesburger

    Why is Tznius different then eating a cheeseburger. If I wrote a letter against eating a cheesburger would there be such an outcry. Lack of Tznius is that same as eating nonkosher. A prominent Rabbi said you cant eat in someones house if they are not tznius.

    to 99
    Guest
    to 99

    what do you mean so that the rebbe will be here again. the rebbe is here with us now.
    Yechi adoneinu morainu virabeinu melech hamoshiach lolam vaed.

    Simply put.....Comment #98 WITH PARAGRAPHS...A Must Read!
    Guest
    Simply put.....Comment #98 WITH PARAGRAPHS...A Must Read!

    98 Yes, the so called restrictions were put in place by an educator of a private school, however being that the issue became public knowledge people are feeling the need to speak out. As two commentators pointed out the reason for the outcry is because the guidelines that are being required are a step ABOVE the actual tznius Halacha. Wearing a long denim skirt is not Halachacilly untznis. Wearing a long long sheitel is covering your hair and not an issur in Halacha. Yes, we are Chasssidim and we should be following the laws לפנים משורת הדין, however it is… Read more »

    To #98
    Guest
    To #98

    See my comment #92. Should Yeshaya Hanovi not have said anything, since what he’s talking about aren’t violations of strict halachah?

    To #23
    Guest
    To #23

    In fact, you are the one who missed the point, as the author addressed yours.

    Regarding adding restrictions to halacha
    Guest
    Regarding adding restrictions to halacha

    Don’t forget, it was only after Chava added to Hashem’s commandment not to eat from the eitz hadaas that she ate from it.

    #73 agree with you
    Guest
    #73 agree with you

    and how about drinking alcohol at farbrengens to only those who are 21 years old and older !!!

    Grab a guitar
    Guest
    Grab a guitar

    I am friendly with a Reconstructionist rabbi. She quotes sources that tell of the spiritual and emotional connection that is supposed to be accomplished in prayer, and therefore she is dismissive of the rabbi who established a set text and protocol for prayer. She believes that everyone should pray as their heart tells them to. In her temple, everyone is encouraged to bring to prayer whatever it may be that helps them evoke feelings. One comes with a guitar, another recites poetry, yet another closes his eyes and meditates. This woman vehemently and sarcastically derides from the pulpit the group… Read more »

    School rules
    Guest
    School rules

    Point: If you are a Bnos Menachem parent, you don’t have the right to complain. You chose an exclusive school, and therefore, it is hypocritical to complain only becuase you and your way of life/dress/whatever are now being excluded. Make a choice and deal with the consequences like an adult. For the rest of us, the rabbanim have yet to tell us that we can either follow the standards or are not a part of the community. These are just rules of a private school, so relax. Your communal opionion will matter when it becomes a communal issue. (Of course… Read more »

    to #74
    Guest
    to #74

    The Rebbe himself said girls should not wear their hair long and loose, either it should be short or should be nicely “gathered”, which means something like a ponytail or braids.

    to #75
    Guest
    to #75

    Not having grown up in a frum home, I went to public school. There was a dress code. If our skirts were perceived as too short we had to kneel on a table and if the skirt didn’t touch the tabletop we were sent to “social adjustment”, a classroom with no actual instruction where students were supposed to think about their behavior.

    "increasingly extreme"?
    Guest
    "increasingly extreme"?

    I can’t find the exact quote now, but it was along the lines of people advocating an “increasingly extreme” view of tznius in CH. It’s not “increasingly extreme”. 30 years ago in Crown Heights all the women dressed in a tzniusdikeh manner. One did not see knees, elbows, cleavage, or bare legs, nor skin-tight dresses. The women all looked mamesh like royalty, part of what attracted me to Yiddishkeit was the way they looked, I loved the idea of looking like that. Those advocating a return to those standards are not “extreme”.

    What if the letter was written by a woman?
    Guest
    What if the letter was written by a woman?

    Would everything be ok? Is that the issue or is that the excuse?

    X