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Sunday, 15 Elul, 5779
  |  September 15, 2019

Let’s Talk Proper Dating Etiquette

From the COLlive Inbox: A single girl going through shidduchim says certain dating scenarios have left her confused, wondering "what was the thought process involved?" Full Story

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Very right...
Guest
Very right...

SO TRUE..

thank you
Guest
thank you

I have been in the shidduch scene for many years and i want to say thank you for a well written article. I have to say that i identify very much with your feelings as i have experienced much of this in my dates… buchurim need to learn to learn to be polite and interested.. wheather they are or not, the menshlich thing to do is to act properly. i am not sure where this comes from. perhaps this has to do with a lax attitude in their upbringing when it comes to respect or a disconnect from reality… thank… Read more »

Shekoyach
Guest
Shekoyach

Thank you for sharing your experience. I wish you mazel and brocha finding your beshert!

Bochur
Guest
Bochur

As a bochur I’m somewhat surprised to hear that guys act so nonchalantly and casual on dates. If a normal bochur is dating, it should mean that he has tachlis and wants to get married. There’s nothing casual about marriage, and the process leading up to it has a certain standard which should be respected with the same reverence. In the scenarios you described I can definitely see how you would be left confused afterwards. If a girl I was on a date with ignored me and was texting her friends I would share the same sentiment. My only practical,… Read more »

from a guy
Guest
from a guy

They are most likely just being themselves. Its not the best manners but wouldn’t you rather the guy acts himself instead of putting on a show? What do you gain from a nice date with a real gentleman when he turns out to be nothing of the sort?

Be happy he’s acting himself and making your choice easier.

Ps for those guys who don’t want to be the subject of the next op-ed check out Adaiad.org and register.

Mazal
Guest
Mazal

very true and supportive, good luck to you!!

huh?
Guest
huh?

You would pass these guys names on to a friend? some friend you are.

Adi ad
Guest
Adi ad

Guys and girls check this out – no joke!
http://www.adaiad.com (adai ad .com)

A guy in the filed
Guest
A guy in the filed

Unfortunately the girls are not in control of the date which makes them subject to some horrible ones. All the guys i know that are dating do take it seriously and come prepared. Maybe it’s not a guy thing but an age thing?

G.S.
Guest
G.S.

There is really nothing you can do. Unfortunately, some guys have no class, and don’t act properly. However, there are plenty of girls that are just as bad, if not worse. I’ve been on quite a few dates with girls that were rude, unresponsive and extremely inconsiderate. As disappointing as it can be, that’s life. Just enjoy the process and remember that every bad date means one more good dating story that you can tell you friends and family about 🙂

sounds like...
Guest
sounds like...

guy #1 is not a mentsch, and guy #2 may not be attracted to you. On another note, i find it strange that on date #8 there’s awkward silence and little conversation; if it got that far, u obviously enjoy each others’ company and should get along very well. and i dont think there’s any good excuse for him to do that.

24 yo guy

Scenarios
Guest
Scenarios

Don’t be confused in Scenario #1, he finds you attractive and in Scenario #2 he doesn’t, men are simple.

The other side of the coin.
Guest
The other side of the coin.

Since you’ve acknowledged that girls are capable of the same behavior, this may be a moot point. However, I just wanted to let you know, that it exists on both sides of the isle. Also, when you arrange that class, they should have a female section. I’ve gone out with a girl, who (after making me wait for quite a few minutes) came out to the car, and asked me my name. Not as a means of making small talk; she actually didn’t know my name. She followed up with questions that are clearly answered in my very brief profile,… Read more »

To #7
Guest
To #7

She did say that she still thinks they’re great guys, just not for her. She was just wondering why they present themselves in this manner. She sounds like a very non-judgmental girl, willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Someone I would be happy to have as my friend!

Hey
Guest
Hey

At least you’re getting dates – that’s more than most of us are getting these days.

psychological health
Guest
psychological health

As a Bochur who is dating have treated every girl with respect and showed interest, please say no to somebody who does that as that is a clear sign of an abusive of neglecting personality.

On the flip side, girls at time show that they are interested or having a great time and then say no and showed they had a good time because they were scared.

Boruch Hashem
Guest
Boruch Hashem

Whats losers these 2 guys were, good thing you had enough seichel to call it off

To#7
Guest
To#7

Yes, it makes sense. Some people are sensitive to these things and some are not, by giving it to a friend that may not be a sensitive to this matter may create the perfect match.

No one is perfect.

I agree
Guest
I agree

Better to end a date early,than to be texting.
If one is bored on a date,it means the person doesn’t have hamshochas halev

Not just on dates...
Guest
Not just on dates...

As a married woman, I have to say that unfortunately, I have noticed many men acting disrespectful. My husband included (and he is a work in progress), a lot of newly married men end up being rude and lacking disrespect to their wives. The way you would treat and speak to another bochur, is never how you should treat your wife or, obviously, your potential wife.

amazing!
Guest
amazing!

being themselves is ridiculous. can you imagine your father texting non stop through your wedding? its the same thing. if your a polite person then by an important event your phone should be off!!!!!!

Not a guy thing
Guest
Not a guy thing

This is not a guy thing, it’s a personality of some, some who can be male and some who can be female that don’t have the proper etiquette. Especially the older people that have been on many dates before, they come to the date making the other really feel like they are just another one of the very long list of people they had already dated, rather than making them feel this is my first date and i wanna make it work. I’m a guy and I was treated this way by a girl who’s been older and around longer… Read more »

Bayis Yehudi classes
Guest
Bayis Yehudi classes

In seminary girls get lessons on how to approach shidduchim including giving refs and dates. Boys don’t. If these matters are discussed it’s at a farbrengen with a bottle of alcohol on the table. Shiurim in Gemoro and Chassidus don’t teach you how to act with girls on a date. A simple example is that my sister’s class were taught that on a date the guy should be leading the conversation, but hang on a minute no-one taught me that. Another issue is that in Yeshivah I had basically no interaction with the community; no chessed hours, no Shabbos meals… Read more »

To 24
Guest
To 24

Manis Friedman has done just that many times over the years, but you have to go to him for it, it’s not like its a class given when you were in Oholei Torah, although that might actually be helpful.

Texting
Guest
Texting

Texting is NEVER appropriate on a date. It is highly insulting and demeaning for the person sitting opposite you. It is not even right to say ‘oh excuse me for a minute! this is an emergency, I am so sorry.’ TURN OFF YOUR PHONE DURING YOUR DATE. Nothing will happen if you are out of touch for 2 hours. And more importantly, you will learn a new skill – how to talk to people face on without distraction. Sadly, we are all losing this ability as we become more and more dependent on our electronic devices to keep us connected… Read more »

classes
Guest
classes

Many Smicha programs offer quite a fair amount of that too (personally, Melbourne Smicha. But there are others too)

however
Guest
however

Don’t many of these young men have sisters and a mother???Don’t they have female cousins and aunts?You mean not one person has taught them some manners?Come on now!You can’t hide behind the “I was in Yeshiva so long….”.How do their sisters not talk to them?Why not a website that have dos and don’ts?

To number 23
Guest
To number 23

Have you not seen your parents be hosts and see how they interact with people?

Very True!
Guest
Very True!

Same experiences! Would be great if bochurim could be prepared for dating, showing care, interest, putting in effort., etc..

as a mother
Guest
as a mother

I would like to say that every person should have respect for the person they are dating. Each date is important. Each goes out with great expectations and each should act accordingly. NO ONE should have their cell phone on. Their attention should be focused on the person they are with and nothing else. As I tell my own children, if the person is acting so ‘heimish’ (translate to b’heimish) when they should be striving to make a good impression, what will they do when they are actually living with you??? Respect is the first step to any relationship and… Read more »

So true!!
Guest
So true!!

I’ve been in the same situation. I think that girls are taught these things, and guys arnt. Perhaps yeshivas should bring in a guy to speak to the bochurim, who’s a dating coach or something. I know the girls have that…

Sorry
Guest
Sorry

The behavior of Bochrim in the dating process, is a begining rude awakening of what being married to one of them means.

MEN are selfish,egocentric,and animalistic(although there are exceptions to the rule, and sometimes,(much less times)) it is the women)..But as a Klal, the woman is resposible to make a Mentch out of the men. Dating is a taste and an experience of what the future holds for her. Sorry !!!

crown heights
Guest
crown heights

THERE ARE BOYS WHO ARE SERIAL DATEING AND THE SHATCHONIM KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND THEY SHOULD TELL THE GIRLS THEY MESS UP PLENTY GIRLS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's not about
Guest
it's not about

learning how to speak to the opposite gender – you are either a mentsch, or you aren’t. you don’t need special classes for it – at least not for the above-mentioned issues.

@#32
Guest
@#32

Really. Was that sarcasm?

In continuation to 23
Guest
In continuation to 23

I never meant to imply that this is an excuse for a lack of derech eretz, if you can’t put away your phone for a couple of hours then you’ll get nowhere be it a shidduch, a job interview or even a conversation with a friend.
Leaving classes till smicha assumes that everyone does it!
Interaction with your mother, sisters cousins or even guests at your house is not the same as a shidduch although basic menshlichkeit is the same in every situation.

You will not like what I am sayin
Guest
You will not like what I am sayin

This may be hard for some to accept but this is why we need to date a little more like he boro park style. We should be setup and have our parents present for the first date, they can get the convo going. This is the best way,.

Great entertainment
Guest
Great entertainment

This is better than anything hollywood can come up with.

to#37
Guest
to#37

No way. That is plain awkward and I couldn’t go along with it.

juvenile
Guest
juvenile

I think the actual article is a bit juvenile, which I think the above comments sort of brought that to light. but that aside, I also think CH can learn from Boro Park, at least for the younger singles doing dating. Myself, I am an old BT, single never married, so I probably do not have a right to even make a comment. But to try to highlight the approach of other chassidim, which presumably have the same roots as chabad (we just made a new derech in many things, apparently in shidduchim too) – it seems the other chassidim,… Read more »

no no you are 100% right, 90% of guys around here have no basic idea of ettquite.
Guest
no no you are 100% right, 90% of guys around here have no basic idea of ettquite.

its depressing, but true. Girls, you have it tough. hatzlocha!

to#40
Guest
to#40

Again I say no way.

Anon
Guest
Anon

Can we guys get a break. Sheesh.

To #40
Guest
To #40

To quote: the problem with this type of posting is it is very situational; is the author writting about age 20-23; or 34-26, or even older?? and again as said in many posts above, playing on phone on a date is not right in general, but nor is it right even with a friend, or anybody – so the posting is very surreal. and to say all men are like that is absurd; you should have and could have picked more normal flaws. Come again.?!? 1) What does age have to do with disrespecting someone? 2) if many people are… Read more »

To #40
Guest
To #40

I don’t think you read the article carefully. To me it seems that was the whole point of the article: It does seem surreal, but unfortunately has in fact taken place. NOtice how other girls have commented that they’ve experienced the same thing. What is juvenile about bringing to light behavior that is wrong and could be corrected? What difference does it make how old someone is? This type of casualness towards dating is just plain wrong. Nowhere was it implied that ALL guys date this way, but rather that some do & that they should be aware that they… Read more »

Prepare a secha
Guest
Prepare a secha

I had these awkward silent moments while dating, so I used to prepare a sicha for the date. It helped. I’m married with kids Ke”h. Now my sichos are a lot shorter.

I agree that respect is something we all have to work on.

to #41
Guest
to #41

I agree with you 100%. For some reason, it seems that the guys today have little respect for the girls they are dating, they are rude, and often times inconsiderate, whether its the way they plan a date, come in a dirty car, the way they speak, or even the way they pay little attention to how they dress, no-one is asking that they dress in Armani suits, but at least be neat, clean, and presentable. The girls clearly care about their appearance, and the guys certainly don’t forget to judge that part. Act and speak with derech eretz, not… Read more »

A guys prespective
Guest
A guys prespective

My ‘rents nag me all the time to go out with this person and and that person, I always check em up on fbook and twitter and most times not interested, but my parents keep nagging on my back so I go out. I go out and just as I thought she not for me, I am with the program and no right away if yay or nay and I feel bad she sitting there yappin away thinking its all swell, I am missing the game and trying to check the score. Whats a guy supposed to do? She keeps… Read more »

to #48
Guest
to #48

I am sorry. It’s very obvious why you are single and you have a lot to work on.

dating game
Guest
dating game

Here are some things, I, as a guy, would change about the dating game. I would like dating to be more casual. I don’t mean behave rudely…But be yourself. This goes for guys and girls. It’s a quicker and better way to get to know someone. The same way if you were going out with friends, it wouldn’t just be one person choosing activities all the time, it would be nice if girls provided input about where to go on dates too. Most young 20-somethings would take the subway into the city. Why do guys need to rent a car?… Read more »

ADAI AD
Guest
ADAI AD

The Adai Ad courses for girls and boys, organized by Mrs Devorah Krasnianski cover all of this plus more.

As someone who has taken the course, I would highly recommend them to all single girls and boys.

to 27
Guest
to 27

its a lot different when youre speaking to someone youve known your whole life. but still that doesnt excuse lack of manners

ABBB
Guest
ABBB

I have no idea why you’d recommend either of these guys to your friends…

what is the etiquette
Guest
what is the etiquette

For bochurim when bump into girls they dated???

To 54
Guest
To 54

It’s mad awkward. Or it’s another opportunity to date them, if you’re still single 🙂

to 50
Guest
to 50

couldnt agree more
and im a girl

to #54
Guest
to #54

That’s a mystery! Once, I passed by a girl who I’ve dated, and she waved. Thinking that that was the acceptable standard, I waved when I passed by another girl I’ve dated, and she completely bugged out, turned away, and blushed. I’m very confused. I hope some girls chime in.

56 and 50
Guest
56 and 50

Please go out.

50.  56
Guest
50. 56

Guy should pay for everything Why.?
You go to date a little more serious, don’t waiste money just dating
Many guys date more than 30 girls

my opinion on the expense
Guest
my opinion on the expense

meet in a private home -it’s the best – an elderly or young couple could be in the far end of the house or if a Rov agrees they could come in or out of the house for Yichud reasons.
You would still have your needed privacy and would save tons on dating. I know couples who did it and are very happy B”H.

scenario 1
Guest
scenario 1

sounds like a problem gambler who can’t help checking up on his bets on his phone but after 8 dates still likes you but can’t keep focused on what REALLY matters

Agree with 5,12,32,50
Guest
Agree with 5,12,32,50

Agree with 5,12,32,50

On a side note
Guys are verrrry simple
If they find u attractive they will ” engage” u ( pun intended;)
If not, then they squirm and fidget and wander off mentally

Now here’s the shocking kicker truth
Male brains take 7.70 seconds to determine attractiveness
Which leaves 2 hrs of uncomfortableness ahead of them

P.s. 7.70 is exaggerated . It’s really 1.1

chauvinism
Guest
chauvinism

From all these women writing that men are pigs… I see that chauvinism is alive and well by women. For every beheimah man I’ve seen at least one nasty woman. There are plenty polite men and women and vice versa. Not sure why the stereotyping by these women who are commenting on COL.

help!
Guest
help!

It’s terrific that Rabbi Friedman and the Adi ad are trying so hard to help singles in this stage of life. unfortunately most 24 and up will not participate. Please share a weekly thought on this sight to educate our youth. this is the perfect forum that everyone reads a great teaching op.

Couldn't agree more with comment 63!
Guest
Couldn't agree more with comment 63!

All you ladies with marriage problems should seek help from your lawyer or psychiatrist; don’t scare every high school girl reading this who doesn’t know that your exaggeration is extreme.

to 48
Guest
to 48

I relate. My mother also tries to nudge me to go out with almost every name that comes up

Communication
Guest
Communication

If these guys are silent or disinterested with you — especially on the 8th date, it’s time to move on. If he cannot carry on a conversation with you he’s not mature enough to get married. And, if their behavior on a date is a precursor to married life, do you want such farbisseners?

Agree with #67
Guest
Agree with #67

As a guy, if it’s just not happening chemistry wise/I feel it isnt a match, I think it affects how I act during the date, even without planning to act that way. I dont understand why a guy would then ask for another date however. In general, not having an idea where to go & not acting interested don’t seem like good signs to me

TO #48
Guest
TO #48

Man, you got some serious issues. You sound like an extremely immature person who has a lot of growing up to do before you are ready to get married. Your parents should not be forcing you to date. That is not right of them. However, once you go out, no matter how off the date is, you should be fully invested and give the girl your complete attention. If you cannot feign interest for 3 hours then you are not ready for marriage. I’ll let you in on a little secret – one day you will be married and your… Read more »

to 54
Guest
to 54

Do whatever you are comfortable doing. It is only awkward if you make is awkward. Personally, I have no problem waiving or talking to a girl I dated in the past. Sometimes they shy away and are uncomfortable, so the next time I just ignore them or give them a simple nod hello.

To Mrs. Adler
Guest
To Mrs. Adler

I agree, but that doesn’t mean the guy or girl can’t be polite and make pleasant conversation for a few hours. Since when do you have to be attracted to a girl in order to speak to them????

#43,#63
Guest
#43,#63

I was thinking the same. Thanks.

@ #48
Guest
@ #48

You are a discrace to us men!! I can’t believe how disrespectfull and arrogant you are!! “I go out and just as I thought she not for me, I am with the program and no right away if yay or nay and I feel bad she sitting there yappin away thinking its all swell, I am missing the game and trying to check the score. Whats a guy supposed to do? ” What’s a guy suppose to do???? Well i”ll tell you what a guy definitly does NOT have to do …CHECKING THE SCORE!!!! If you don’t like to hear… Read more »

A bochur in the shidduch scene
Guest
A bochur in the shidduch scene

I am sorry that you had these bad experiences. B”H I was taught to respect everyone especially someone who may be your potential bashert. If I were a girl I would see such behavior as a red flag from the beginning. I used Adai Ad, and it was definitely a good program to get your brain jogging. I didn’t feel there was anything really new. It was more of a guide. But that was just me…I think everyone should do it though… a lot of people ae clueless, especially guys and need it. Before I dated I had questions that… Read more »

A bochur in the shidduch scene 2
Guest
A bochur in the shidduch scene 2

I’m not gonna get too into detail, but she was simply rude and abnoxious. I thought she had some weird facial reactions or something so I didn’t address it. Either way, the point is that dating can be tough for boys or girls. Eveyone has their faults and complaints about others. But please remember one thing please do not generalize on one gender being worse than the other, that’s plain stupidity. There are good boys and good girls and vice versa. Boys have their concerns with spending tonns of money (and I can personally say that I am not exaggerating… Read more »

The solution
Guest
The solution

I think we should have more casual quikie dates; a name comes up, while the parents do research let the kids go out for 1 hr and see if there is anything to even talk about..

i check the time on my phone im not texting
Guest
i check the time on my phone im not texting
re: the solution
Guest
re: the solution

Your idea can be devastating. True it can save time if there is no attraction. But what if there IS initial attraction and the guy/girl is an awful prospect beyond their looks/personality attractiveness, then the parents get frustrated that their son/daughter is dating someone with major issues… and things get very exciting (in a bad way).

To 77
Guest
To 77

Yay so now you are being rude in a diff way (think how you feel when you are trying to spend quality time with some one and he checking the time a whole time)

To number 74/75
Guest
To number 74/75

I couldn’t agree more. I think the whole idea of a ‘resume’ is ridiculous. Whenever anyone asks I tell them I have a job already. The fact that you have to reduce yourself down to a couple of sentences so that someone else can come along, and judge your entire self based on those couple of lines is just stupid to be honest. What happened to good old-fashioned calling friends and family? I read a paragraph from a guy’s resume describing what he’s looking for in a wife. Thought to myself that’s nice, but, A) It sounds like he’s describing… Read more »

#48
Guest
#48

The whole world is looking for you or so you think.
Dont waste other people’s time . Rather get ready
enhancing your midos before you do someone that huge favor of going out.

Girl who agrees
Guest
Girl who agrees

#2 tons of times. Come prepared please. It’s so stressful to think of a place on the spot. If you ask me ahead of time to prepare I will. But on a first date it’s expected the guy will have some plan unless otherwise discussed.

I really think its rude. Ask a friend or look on yelp.com. You cannot go wrong with a rooftop hotel.

P.s to writer who has experienced first scenario, totally unacceptable. I would address it with the guy then and there!

"speed dating" is the answer to most of these posts
Guest
"speed dating" is the answer to most of these posts

if it’s true that men take 1.1 seconds to decide, and i think it prob is that way for women too….they’re just nicer about it….set up speed dating under respected mashpiim. five minutes with each girl/bochur is enough to decide if they would like to go out on a date. yes, some people may get hurt….that’s the down side…but does it outweigh all the singles who are getting hurt every single day by either being rejected after a date, or not getting any calls at all? please, let someone be brave enough to let the young people just see each… Read more »

Thats Funny!
Guest
Thats Funny!

That is too funny. I am told by multiple Shadchanim that the first date should be light, nonchalant and just to see if we have rapport. Now for me, this is no easy task. I want to get very personal right away, and I tend to get attached easily. So I lower my interest, and smile and am curious. But I hold myself back the first 2 or three dates just to see how the general rapport goes. Am I doing it wrong? Why don’t Shidduchim come with a manual? ARRRRRGGGHGH!

EIGHT dates in the same place?????
Guest
EIGHT dates in the same place?????

shidduch dating is a PROCESS and needs to make measurable process each time. You go in with a goal and attain that goal during the date: what is their vision, can I trust them etc. (please read Inner Circle by shaya Ostrow). So what we have in the article is a relationship that is STUCK and needs a mentor and some decision -making about getting engaged or dropping each other. I strongly recommend shidduch coaching. Our mashpia can’t always help in the details, and should be consulted AFTER the coaching session. May you all have focused and respectful shidduch dates,… Read more »

bochur in shidduchim
Guest
bochur in shidduchim

I pride myself in properly planning and scouting out my dating places. I haven’t dated much, but i know that it is important to me, and i want to do it right. Besides it boosts your confidence knowing what you’ll do. it is obvious that phones on a date are a no, no, and i must say quite ridiculous. if a girl i was dating pulled her phone out in the middle of a date, especially the first ones, it would cause me to seriously reconsider her. of course it seems that the writer here was set up with “resumes”… Read more »

To #83
Guest
To #83

While speed dating could work, in theory…. I fail to see, how it is considered tzniusdik. Please, enlighten us.

moms opinion
Guest
moms opinion

the main reason for this: dates which are too long…
start making your dates shorter,( 3 hours max) and see the difference!

As a girl
Guest
As a girl

I’d have to say you’re probably prettier on the inside. I did the same when i went out with guys i found unattractive. Just cut the date short, say you need to be home ten min ago and shalom all yisroel. Guys are mostly visual, though of course not all, so blaming them and saying it’s lack of etiquette is a joke. I bet you they didn’t act like that on the date they were attracted to or conversation they felt connected to.

Yossel
Guest
Yossel

The boys spend most of their waking hours for the first years in school, behind books. They have never been exposed to how to behave when on a shidduch date. They are probably nervous and have no clue about how relations between a husband and wife are supposed to act, except maybe from their sefarim. It’s time for boys in the shidduch parsha to get some coaching, especially if they are shy by nature.

Hatzlocha to Us all in this difficult parsha
Guest
Hatzlocha to Us all in this difficult parsha

I think it’s important to be respectful,but if it doesn’t seem to work, don’t drag it out. End it, politely,with menschlechkeit. Don’t make the other person wonder,or get wrong ideas. People are sensitive,regardless of gender,and can easily be hurt. Honesty is important—even if it means telling your honest feelings to the shadchan,rather than hurt the other person. One may never know the extent of pain,another can go through,if they think one thing,and it turns out differently. For example, if one feels they can’t committ, don’t go out till you’re ready. This is serious. Peoples lives and views on opposite gender… Read more »

COACHING WOULD SAVE A LOT OF OGMAS  NEFESH
Guest
COACHING WOULD SAVE A LOT OF OGMAS NEFESH

coaching before you date (boy OR girl) helps define priorities and obstacles, explains how to makes hidduchim work to your benefit, and show you how to date proactively and in a focused way. I can attest to this, as i have coached dozens of girls at Mayanot.
Wishing you all much hatzlokho, Chana Boas

get real
Guest
get real

No 5, absolutely ridiculous. If you can’t make an effort on a date, what hope is there in a marriage?
And as for checking the time, whoever wrote that, get yourself a watch.
Really dismal reading all this. No doubt about it, turn the phone off, or at least on silent, and check later for that oh so important missed call. Bottem line, if someone is interested, you will know, enough with make excuses and trying to interpret every nuance.

judge the person
Guest
judge the person

I undestand that most of these comments are from people who are set up on shidduch dates and most have never spent any time in the company of a female other than their mother or sister before this. Therein lies the first problem. Most young men have come to view women as a different species. I feel it is very important for young people to learn that a ‘male’ or ‘female’ is basically just a human being, and they should be able to see them and talk with them as a person first. Perhaps social get-togethers, shabbat dinners or lectures,… Read more »

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